Carpets

[lbunner]

Let's start a new topic on the recent complaint from the Rangers regarding the carpets on Woodstock. We need to rectify this situation before it becomes more than an eyesore to the people overseeing the park. I'll start it off by stating that the sense of urgency appears to have been ratcheted up. We need to come up with a plan to address this situation. I'll posit that removing the carpets should be at the top of the list and in short order. About the second time some hiker complains to the Rangers about the unsightly and unnatural looking launch this issue could snowball in a direction that none of us will like. I only say this as I have witnessed the feds taking away a hang and paragliding site at the Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore after it had been flown for 35 years. Don't think it can't happen! I would also support a previous post that this is an opportunity for the club to get the launch improvement plan moved forward from the planning to the implementation stage. Let's hear your thoughts on what needs to be done and then more importantly lets take action to resolve this issue!

[mercury]

dirt grass seed straw cheap easy beautiful 2 cents

[mingram]

Jon and I agreed to spearhead the removal of the carpets.

We're looking for a cheap replacement that we could roll-up after flying. Matt Young (mercury), you mentioned you have drop cloth we could use. Does that offer still stand?

If anyone has access to large sections of thin office carpet or the like I'm interested. Something large and easy to rollup would be ideal.

Matt

[jyoder111]

How big do you need? Home depot has 20x30 foot tarps for $60-70 and smaller for less. it could be folded up and stuck in a tube or something and hidden behind a rock or tree if you don't want to take it with you.

[dbodner]

If you end up buying tarps, I'd go with canvas. At 9x12, they're smaller than plastic, but I think they'll be much less of a PITA. They fold up to nothing, aren't slippery or stiff, less of a tripping hazard, yada, yada.

[mcgowantk]

My understanding of the Forest Service objections were not that the carpets were old but that they were there in the first place. If a drop cloth or another indoor/outdoor carpet are left out on the launch for a week or two, they look like trash just like the old carpets.

Also, we can't expect perfect compliance with someone going up there every night and rolling them back up and out of sight. We have tried that for a while now.

We need to stop using carpets and look to other ideas, like planting grass or just picking up sticks before laying out a wing.

Tom McGowan

[Ward Odenwald]

I agree with Tom. Using a “cheap replacement” to the carpets is not an option. When this issue was first aired, someone stated that the carpets would be removed or rolled up after flying and others questioned if they would. Human nature indicates that it’s only a matter of time until the Park Rangers find the “cheap replacements” littering their regions of responsibility. As Bunner indicated, when the locals and the Rangers are alarmed about the eyesore(s) and the only solution we settle for is selecting a different cover - we lose flying sites!

[markc]

I can certainly understand the need to prevent abrasion damage to a PG wing, as well as the desire to minimize the time it takes to recover from an aborted launch (extracting the wing, pulling out twigs, untangling lines). And clean inflations can be easier if there's a smooth surface to lay out the wing.

(Agree with Peter about the footing issues, but let's put that aside for the moment....)

At sites like Daniel's, I think this could be accomplished fairly easily with a combination of regular site maintenance and small improvements. PG launches don't typically require a huge amount of running room: So why not 'groom' the top of the slot a bit more, plant some hardy grass, yank out the stickers, bring some tools when you go flying, that sort of thing?

Woodstock is bit tougher because of the rock outcrops and such. The ambitious plans for improving the launch would take care of that... But heck, even something quite a big step back from those plans could still accomplish quite a lot.

MarkC

[Dan T]

We are getting a team together to take the carpet out of Woodstock on Sunday. If you can join us please do. I plan to be there by about 2:00. A pickup truck or two would be most helpful.

Unless the road is closed we are going to work to clear it until we are exhausted or it's done. It was a well intended idea but it didn't work very well and as everyone has observed it has created a terrible blight on the land that we have an obligation to correct.

So far there is one other person besides myself who has signed up for Sunday and she prodded me into committing. We could sure use some help.

Come on out, what better way to spend a wretched, cold, overly blustery Sunday?

Dan

[Dan T]

We are taking the carpet out on Sunday. Please come out and help if you can. A pickup truck or two would be really helpful.

I posted a little earlier but it got buried in the thread below. There are more details there.

Thanks,
Dan

[FlyingFelix]

We should make the carpet removal day a flyable day.
Id like to help but I'm a 3 hour drive from Woodstock...

[sailin]

Dan,
I will be there tomorrow to help with the carpet removal. Weather willing, might try to get a flight in too.

Jon

[deveil]

I have a sturdy wheelbarrow that could be useful in getting the stuff down the trail.

I can't come myself, but someone could pick it up here.

(Also, the job would be *immensely* easier if the carpet is relatively dry.)

703 two-for-one oh-tu-tu-5

[deveil]

possibly useful:
utility knives or other means of cutting large pieces to workable sizes.
rope for easier handling - bundle to carry or drag & secure in pickup bed.
ibuprofen
beer
snake-bite kit

[sailin]

Gary thanks for the good ideas and offer of equip!!

It doesn't look like the "landfill" is open tomorrow....only the "compactor" from 1pm-5pm. She also said the landfill wasn't open unitl Tuesday. For the carpet to qualify for "compactor" status it has to be put in trash bags.

What do you think....cut it up and put in trash bags take to compactor tomorrow OR roll it up, tape it.... and try to put it somewhere until Tuesday??

Getting large trash bags and bagging it may be the way to go.Get rid of it at compactor tomorrow.

Jon

[Dan T]

For those of you unfamiliar with the safety issue, the modern high performance paragliders have very thin lines that are particularly susceptible to being cut by the sharp rocks at the top of the launch area at Woodstock. Even the intermediate PGs, including my own, have these thin lines on the upper half of the lines. The PG members of our local community put the carpet down in an effort to reduce the likelihood of an accident resulting from one or more lines breaking as a result of abrasion.

Us PGers have discussed the problem at length amongst ourselves. While I haven't polled every PG pilot in the club I've been in contact with most of the active ones and we agree that while the carpet idea was well intended it created problems that render it impractical. Since there is also virtually no support for it in the hang gliding community it's clear that the majority of the club would like to go ahead and remove the carpet as soon as possible.

I picked Sunday afternoon for the removal effort because we've been discussing the problem for months and I think getting started on the solution is better than delaying it further. This is in spite of the fact that it's going to be miserably cold and the carpet will probably be wet and heavy . The last thing we want is to be taking it out because the USFS threatens to shut us down if we don't rather than do it simply because we know we should.

Ellis and I are going to go there tomorrow afternoon provided that the road is open and it's not raining. If we can't lift and carry the carpet we will do our best to roll it up and move it to the side so that it is no longer an eyesore from the road. Then we can move it out of there at a later date. I know not all of you can make it tomorrow but we'd certainly appreciate some help from those of you who can.

I read that the dump is closed tomorrow. However there are big community dumpsters near the library at the foot of the Fort Valley side of the Woodstock Tower Road. We might be able to put the pieces there.

Dan
H4/P3

[Dan T]

I just called the police dispatcher who informed me that she believes the road is still closed.

It also looks like snow is on the way here in the Shenandoah Valley. Maybe next Saturday will be a flyable/dumpable day.

Dan

[stevek]

Hi. I just had an email exchange with John McAllister. He runs a landscaping business in Winchester

Hi Steve,
I m good. I was up there this week watching it not blow(Woodstock effect). John W Felix and I were talking to two park rangers about what a trash dump launch looked like. There are 2 ways to fix the problem. Soil and seed or sod or a compact able clean gravel. The disadvantage of grass is that then you have to mow. I think I can maneuver one of my bobcats to get the soil up there. If not I have large double wheeled wheel barrows. I can also provide soil and dump trucks. Maybe folks could pitch in to help cover the cost. Have the ring leader call me. We need to do it soon before I get too busy.
We can also fill in around rocks to create a run way further down the slot. I'd like to catch up soon. John 540 533 0454

I think we should get on this now. Get an ok (or maybe nod and wink) from the Forest Service and do it.

[sailin]

I just called police dispatch in Woodstock.....she says the road closed on Feb 14th and hasn't opened back up yet. She does not think it will open today

Damn. I will be watching the weather intently and getting out there the first day I can....hopefully one day this week or next weekend.

I like the soil and grass seed option as it is natural and seems to meet the needs of launch improvement I think. I have started email dialogue amongst the CHGPA Board of Directors to see if we can figure something out as a club (with opportunity for input from every member) ASAP and make a presentation to the Forest Service.

Jon

[deveil]

wow, John McAllister says he can do it now!
probably won't even get in the way of an expanded project.

Steve's point about nod and wink is historically sound, and actually amounts to simply having a conversation with the guy - he'll have some allowable latitude.

A simple, "we hear you about the carpets and are going to get them out permanently ASAP. they were there for such and such reason and hey, could we do the dirt thing?" - tie the two together.

It's an oral "presentation" actually, and you haven't started the beauraucratic thing (yolks!) by making a written presentation. 'can always still do that if that's what's required.

'just saying

[dbodner]

Well, y'all lost out. Ellis and I both made cloudbase this afternoon. Of course, that was while we were walking the trail.

We were able to get some carpets rolled up and moved up toward the trail. But there are still quite a few more. And they're about as stiff and heavy as you'd expect. I hope the rangers see what we did as progress.

The back road was open. We didn't try the front.

[Dan T]

Woodstock looks flyable tomorrow. Let's get some or all of the carpets out of there. We need a wheelbarrow or two. Ellis can't bring hers. I think she left it in Alexandria and she's in Linden for the weekend.

By the way it's real nice here in Winchester right now. No wind though.

Dan

[dbodner]

I can't make it, but my wheel barrow is available. I guess Gary's is, too.

[XCanytime]

I've kept my lip buttoned so far because I've always tried to adhere to the principle of not saying anything if you don't have anything nice to say. However the temperature has reached the boiling point and it's time to pull the relief valve. I spent hours on Thursday, giving up a day of flying, undoing the absolute trash dump that was created last summer at Woodstock, as reported by Jon. It was brought to everybody's attention last August that what was done was just plain wrong and not approved by the club and jeopardized the site for ALL. Yet nothing was done for 6 months! It took threats from actual park rangers to get action, which is pretty sad. I have to give props to Matt Ingram for his honesty and at least thanking me. Today John McCallister and I surrendered our pickup truck beds to more carpet refuse being loaded and driven away. There are still more to be rolled up and carried away. Bacil

[mingram]

The carpets have been removed from Woodstock. A big thank you to all who helped!

There are still some rolled up at Daniels that need to be removed. I'll take a load away the next time I go.

Matt