High Rock structure in need of repair

[mcelrah]

The concrete structure at High Rock is showing a good deal of erosion under the concrete cap on at least three sides. The first stairstep is pretty unmanageable with the surrounding surface so much lower. Several feet of the cap on the back side have disappeared (wuffos probably throw the chunks off as they come loose). Glenn seems amenable to providing technical consultancy about how to effect a repair (build forms and pour in concrete with a significant admixture of aggregate?). Someone needs to follow up with him on the phone (he does not do internet) and we need to assemble a work party - he should only be the supervisor and we should provide the unskilled labor. The received wisdom appears to be that we could do this repair without getting formal permission from Washington County - they might be upset with us if we just let the structure deteriorate - but a courtesy call to the director of public works, parks and planning would be in order (maybe they could provide some help, machinery...). Need to get this done before it gets too cold for concrete to set - another winter's freeze/thaw cycling will make the job a lot harder... - Hugh

[bustedwing2]

Perhaps the club could hire or contract Glenn if he has a slow week,seems to know what he's doing. RichB

[mcelrah]

Good idea. Anybody got his phone number (ya, I know, it's written on the side of the truck). I don't want to get out in front of the BoD on this. Hoping they will take this up. - Hugh

[Richard Hays]

Glen can be reached at: 443-414-5175.

Rich Hays

[Matthew]

How about we knock the block down to the height of the old ramp walls (the walls on either side of the cube where the wuffos always sit), take our a few trees on either side of launch, fill the entie area behind the current cube with rocks all the way to the parking area, build a retaining wall all the way around and then pour in tons and tons of cement to make 40' by 40' slightly sloping launch pad????

Then we can have a cliff launch and a flat slope launch for light winds and a paragliding launch!!!

Matthew

[brianvh]

The most critical part of the repair from a safety standpoint will be the along the cliff edge. Have to be sure not to miss this because it can't be seen unless you lay on your belly and poke your head over the edge. I have frightening visions of someone standing near the edge when it crumbles - this will not be as easy a lawsuit as those who went over the edge by their own missteps.

[mcelrah]

Matthew, is that a serious proposal? I'm listening...

I called Jim Sterling, Director of Parks, Recreation, and Facilities for Washington County. He will take a look at the cube today and get back to me. He agrees we would not need a permit to make repairs. So the entering argument is that this would a be a club(s) project, but I asked if we could get any contribution in the form of advice, men, machines, tools, or materials from the county.

But if we wanted to make a bigger project and make it into a PG-able site, now would be the time...

- Hugh

[Matthew]

OK. The previous proposal was just wishful thinking. However, what would happen if we just flattened the entire area to be the same level as the parking lot? How much height would we lose for launching? Less than 10 feet? If so, then that is likely doable using a contractor with rock crushing equipment like we did at the Pulpit. We could still lay down a cement pad at the edge of the cliff for a windy cliff launch. We'd also have to add a guardrail to make sure no one drove off the edge.

Matthew

[mcelrah]

OK, are you willing to work up a written proposal similar to the former PG launch proposal that we could get endorsed by the clubs and then submit to Washington County? - Hugh

[markc]

I'm concerned about losing "only" 10 feet. You know how high the trees below are. Think
of the number of launches that would have resulted in a tree'd pilot if there had been 10
fewer vertical feet available. Yes, trees can be topped to help with that... But we would
have to do so much more often than we do now, and topping is NOT an easy task.

I'm also concerned about the club taking a role in substantial changes to the current
structure. If something happened to some wuffo, for whatever reason, would we be
more liable because of the work that the club oversaw? I'm no lawyer, but I suspect there's
a difference between "routine maintenance/repair/etc" and a complete re-config of the
site.

I also wonder if we would get some push-back from other powers-that-be in the county,
if the project becomes more than just repair-oriented.

MarkC

[mcelrah]

Seems to me if having built the current cube didn't give us liability (there was a lawsuit, right? and they lost), removing it wouldn't either.

Absolutely, County could say "no", in which case, we go ahead with repair - or allow Mother Nature to do the demolition for us...

I'm not necessarily plumping for one or the other option - just thinking out loud...

- Hugh

[Matthew]

OK. I'll get up to High Rock within the next 10 days and make some measurements. Anyone wanna join me?

Matthew

[brianvh]

I think you'd catch major flak if you removed the historical stone pilings. There's no way you could touch those without heavy duty permission. Really don't think you want to go there. Repairing the existing structure is cheap and won't make any waves.

[brianvh]

Oh, and the rocks too. Remember, we DON'T own the site. It was purchased by the Open Space project for it's natural beauty, which includes the rocks themselves. We could put the pad there because it was on top of previous construction. I think a couple old pilings are actually under the pad, but would have to find a picture of the old ramp to confirm (or one of the old timers could confirm).

Leveling the whole area is a zero chance probability, I wouldn't even waste time writing a proposal.

[dbodner]

I agree with Brian. We need to leave the wuffo rock structures alone. Those go back to horse-and-buggy days when PenMar was a major resort. (Check out the old photos at the park someday). I think it's best to simply repair the cube we have and try to do something better with steps.

My impression is that the pseudo-permanent nature of the current cube was because the county wouldn't give permission for a permanent, properly constructed concrete structure. So the Old Folks did the best they thought they could away with. That issue is probably now moot. A good concrete repair might shore the cube (and the steps) up for good, now.

[bustedwing2]

I agree with Dave and Brian,repairs and minor improvements are affordable and easily done without butting heads with bureaucrats,there's always the possibility of losing the site in the not to distant future if something happens with landing rights,developers,who knows what.It is a growing area. RichB

[Dan T]

Fixing that cube isn't going to be a minor repair. It's going to be a significant and probably expensive task. It needs to be done quickly too or there may not be a cube to fix. I took a good look at it last week, the amount erosion is disheartening. I fear we are at risk of losing this site if we don't act promptly.

Is anyone planning on being up that way this weekend? If so can you take some photographs from underneath the structure and post them on here? it would help advance the dialog for those who haven't had the opportunity to see it for themselves. In my opinion we shouldn't undertake this effort without at least some level coordination with Washington County.

Dan T

[DanTuck]

Ya, Dan. I have the feeling this is going to be more extensive and expensive than we were initially thinking.
I say we first look at making the necessary repairs to make it safe, get a few quotes from contractors on that to get an idea of what we're talking about.
I imagine that even if we shore up the gaps and fill it with concrete, the erosion will continue. But a concrete guy will know.
Plus, there are two large, full length cracks in the top of the concrete pad. They've been painted over many times but could be more significant than we think. I'm not sure but these are reasons I think we ought to get a contractor out there.
To make a safe launch may very well require demolishing the current structure and replacing it.
My opinion is to keep it as much of a repair to what we have now as we can.
If we end up re-doing it and replace in kind, maybe we can avoid any permitting and still be considered repair work.
Those trees are not far down there and I wouldn't want to lose ten feet either.
And the historical pillars are part of what make High Rock what it is, I think.

[brianvh]

For comparison, when the steps were put in about 10 years ago it took a couple hours of work by an experienced framer (Marvin Presley) to build and mount the form, then a half day for a crew of about 6 under the direction of an experienced concrete man (Fred Permenter) to fill it, using salvaged rebar, rocks from the woods, gravel and cement. The cost was about $200. We also slapped some patching cement around the cube (mainly the back) and added the metal tie-ins (one of which has disappeared).

Scaling up I'd say this would be a full weekend's work for 6-8 people and cost $600-$800 just to patch the erosion and add a new step. Whether patching it without tearing down and rebuilding the whole thing would work or not is an estimation beyond my knowledge base.

Bunkhouse Bob may have the concrete knowledge we need. If he's at Hyner this weekend I'll put it to him. Glen Hardy also seems confident about building a step at the least.

There's also the question of replacing all the gravel that has eroded from the walk up. If that hadn't disappeared over the last 10 years we wouldn't need a step. Might be worth thinking about replenishing at least some of it.

[mcelrah]

Just to keep the pot boiling: the paragliding list is, of course, favorable to the larger project (dunno whether they would actually show up and work). I am hoping to have time to call Jim Sterling again tomorrow to inquire what he thinks after driving up and looking at the cube - and I will also ask his advice about how receptive the county council might be to a proposal for a redo of the whole site. I wonder whether they see it as a scenic attraction or an attractive nuisance... And I wonder whether they really give two hoots about the supposed "historic" nature of whatever is underneath the cube. As to expense - we might explore applying to the Free Flight Foundation for a grant... Should we think about putting in a radial ramp like at Henson's Gap, Tennessee and now, I read, Ellenville NY. (Brian, how come you didn't tell me about the entirely separate paraglider launch at Ellenville?) Just remember: doing nothing is also a decision... Who is Open Space? So far as I know, Washington County is the beneficial owner... - Hugh

[brianvh]

Project Open Space: http://www.dnr.state.md.us/land/landconservation.asp

They seem to have a strong focus on recreation as well as conservation. They purchase land on behalf of local government management agencies; I don't know if there's any contractual obligation that follows.

I'm not advising not to plan knocking down the pillars in the future, just advising that it can't be done without jumping through a bunch of hoops. Same with the rocks. The pad will likely be unsafe long before you have permission to do anything major, so we'd lose 6 months or so of launching capability.

I'd advise doing temp repairs to the pad, using the opportunity to bring up long term renovations. Ask Washington county what THEY would like to see done, and offer a partnership. I guess it would take a good year or more to get approval and partner funding for a major rebuild.

But the front within 5 to 6 feet of the edge MUST be repaired NOW or we have a major liability issue on our hands. Someone may sit on the side, it crumbles and they may fall forward towards the edge. And the leading edge is even more crucial.

As for the new paraglider launch at Ellenville, I didn't know about it myself until it came out in HG mag. It's a bit of a vertical hike, so HG don't really use it. And P3 have to land in the training hill LZ.

[Danny Brotto]

Pretty much what Brian said on cube repairs. The HR platform that preceded the concrete cube was wooden and torched on the 4th of July ~1990. We pretty much suspended flying HR that summer and fall (although some of us managed to flop/stall off the rocks once or twice) while we worked with the county on a new launch solution. Their initial response was “What, you fly hang gliders there? You can't have a structure built on county property.” Essentially they wanted something that could not be burned down again and was not an obvious structure. Rae Permenter, Jerry Nielsen, and me worked with the county (well, really Rae) and we negotiated with the county on a “landscaped” launch made of rocks (concrete is rocks, no?) Rae, Jerry, and my name were on the original lease/MOU agreement, Rae and Jerry have since rescinded. That spring, we poured the concrete and created the cube. The county inspectors came up mid-week to check and saw that we had poured concrete and reinforced it with rebar. That constituted a structure that did not constitute landscaped rocks. We renegotiated and settled on removing the rebar. Seriously, the next weekend we were smashing the concrete to remove the rebar; that was a hell of a day. We pulled out a number of rods at the front of the cube, took pictures for proof, and replaced the concrete w/o rebar. (I suspect the erosion is due in large part to the removal of the rebar and the pouring of the new concrete.)

Anyway the county in those days was willing to work with us but also pretty adamant about maintaining a low impact launch platform. The sentiment may have changed now. I think if someone wants to investigate this, they need to proceed with great diplomacy. Recognize that bringing any attention to our activity there may open a huge can of worms.

Danny Brotto

[stevek]

Whatever happened to the effort to get permission to cut a slot off to the side?

[mcelrah]

The slot off to the side died because it turned out to be private land, not Washington County's. - Hugh

[Danny Brotto]

Private land can be purchased... any idea who owns it and the size of the lot contraining the plot of interest?

Danny Brotto