Hi Everyone...
For anyone who doesn't know me, I'm a non-current H3 pilot with around 120 hours of career airtime. I love hang gliders and though I've been out of the scene for the past year (last aerotowed at Blue Sky about 6-8 months ago), I don't want to quit flying altogether.
I've always been one of those "hardcore plumbers" who swore I'd never fly a paraglider...but I have to admit...all those stories and photos of fantastic-looking paragliding in the USHPA magazine have really started to get to me. I find myself thinking more and more, "Man, that looks like fun."
An even bigger factor that's pushing me to learn paragliding is their superior portability. I travel around a lot and do lots of other sports that often take me to interesting outdoor places...and I keep thinking how great it would be to just be able to throw my wing in the backseat of the car or easily check it on the plane.
Matthew, you and Karen are the only bi-wingual people I know...so I'd definitely be interested in hearing your perspective on making the switch...and your thoughts on when/how often you fly PG versus HG?
Finally, I've always been terrified of the notion of a PG collapse (or rather the idea that a PG *can* collapse)...but I also realize that (as with hang gliding) much depends on the wing (e.g. a DHV1 wing will be less likely to collapse when flown in conservative conditions by a conservative pilot).
This isn't something I'm ready to jump on right away (I don't even know who the local PG instructors are?)...but I'm definitely thinking about it! Meanwhile, I also plan to get back down to Blue Sky this spring/summer to get current just flying my HG again...and I hope to get back to the mountains as well...
Scott Wilkinson
Thoughts on switching to PG?
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
Re: Thoughts on switching to PG?
Oh, and Sparky too---how's it going Spark? I forgot you're another bi-wingual pilot I know!
Scott
Scott
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pink_albatross
- Posts: 599
- Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:20 pm
- Location: Ellis from Arlington
Re: Thoughts on switching to PG?
Juan Ortiz teaches PG out of Virginia and Dwayne McCourt in West Va. Not sure which is more convenient for you.
Full collapses: as far as I see it, the highest risk of getting a collapse is if you're a newbie flying in boowah conditions on a competition glider. The lowest risk of getting a collapse is if you are a highly skilled pilot flying a DHV 1 in mellow evening conditions. You can fill in the risk spectrum in between.
-- ellis
Full collapses: as far as I see it, the highest risk of getting a collapse is if you're a newbie flying in boowah conditions on a competition glider. The lowest risk of getting a collapse is if you are a highly skilled pilot flying a DHV 1 in mellow evening conditions. You can fill in the risk spectrum in between.
-- ellis
Re: Thoughts on switching to PG?
A DHV 1 or DHV 1-2 will recover from a full collpase very quickly if you do nothing. I've had two full collapses and in both cases the glider reinflated in less than 20 feet. In the first case I was flying in rowdy conditions that I knew better to be flying in-- my own stupid fault. In the second collapse, I was at Woodstock and I noticed winds picking up. So I headed out to land and was going backwards unless on speedbar. I had the collapse while on full speed bar when I hit sheer or big sink. Thus, if you avoid flying in strong conditions, you aren't as likely to have a collapse. Partial and tip collapses are no big deal and happen when you are first learning to fly in thermals. With expereince and canopy control, these don't happen as much. I haven't had a partial or tip collapse in what seems forever. Thus, I feel you are safer flying in light to medium thermic conditions than flying when it's windy. Anytime you can get more that 600 over in ridge lift in a PG at any of our sites, you are on the edge of going backwards if winds pick up.
As to the switch, we took up PG mostly for travel purposes. Been to Hawaii, Brazil, Nova Scotia, Costa Rica, Utah and France.
Around here I always bring both wings out except when going to Highland or High Rock. If winds are light and don't look like they'll build, generally in the summer, I just grab the PG. Thus, the convenience of flying PGs makes you lazy. Why set up the HG if you don't have to?
I also think that flying a PG makes you a better HG pilot. You can really feel all of the nuances of a thermal when flying the PG. Thus, I've learned to have a lighter touch on the HG and can feel the lift and sink better. I think it has improved my thermalling abilities in the HG.
As to flying, you still feel more like you are flying in the hang glider-- the whole Superman thing. However, thermalling the PG is more fun-- it's like being on one of those big rotating swing rides at an amausement park. I actually get kinda bored flying the PG in ridge lift.
Matthew
PS Daniel B. and Steve K. and Ellis and Hugh and Jim R. are Biwingwal.
As to the switch, we took up PG mostly for travel purposes. Been to Hawaii, Brazil, Nova Scotia, Costa Rica, Utah and France.
Around here I always bring both wings out except when going to Highland or High Rock. If winds are light and don't look like they'll build, generally in the summer, I just grab the PG. Thus, the convenience of flying PGs makes you lazy. Why set up the HG if you don't have to?
I also think that flying a PG makes you a better HG pilot. You can really feel all of the nuances of a thermal when flying the PG. Thus, I've learned to have a lighter touch on the HG and can feel the lift and sink better. I think it has improved my thermalling abilities in the HG.
As to flying, you still feel more like you are flying in the hang glider-- the whole Superman thing. However, thermalling the PG is more fun-- it's like being on one of those big rotating swing rides at an amausement park. I actually get kinda bored flying the PG in ridge lift.
Matthew
PS Daniel B. and Steve K. and Ellis and Hugh and Jim R. are Biwingwal.
Re: Thoughts on switching to PG?
Hey Scott!
I'll go out on a limb and add my thoughts on the subject. First thing ... a PG is a completely different aircraft and HG flying skills do not translate directly to PG.
Learning to make turns and launch and land a PG is relatively easy, but flying one safely and 'properly' is a whole different story. It all starts with good instruction and devloping good habits, just like HG.
IMO, Critical PG skills including ground handling (launch skills) and canopy control, which takes some serious commitment. Any canopy (DHV1) can collapse, and the key to reducing or preventing collapses when flying in active air is to fly 'actively': to keep the wing pressurized, anticipate what the wing is doing and try to stay ahead of it, making proactive control inputs, because things can get out of control quickly.
I've been hanging out with some really good PG pilots trying to learn more, and was told that if I am looking at my canopy, rather than feeling what it is doing through my harness, I may be too late in taking corrective action to prevent a 'whack'.
Even with good active piloting skills, you can still end up with your wing in a wad. Once you get the basic skills (from a good instructor lkike Juan) and some flying experience, it is a good idea to attend an over-the-water clinic, where you practice different scenarios (including deflations) over water and learn how your wing will react.
Where PG is similar to HG: spatial orientation, judging glide angles (allthough PG glide angles are different), approaches, and most importantly the aspect of judgement ... the risk equation .. equipment, wx, site conditions, etc.
One cool thing about PG that is different than HG is the aspect of ground handling. You can get alot of experience 'flying' your canopy with your feet on the ground, and learning how it responds to body movements and changes in wind direction and velocity. I can't overstate how important it is to spend lots of time kiting. I spent months ground handling, practicing inflations, and 'killing the wing', and kiting before I even began to think about actually flying. It is extremely satisfying to kite a paraglider, and is a key skill.
Regarding collapses: Less than two weeks ago, we had an accident at Golden where a PG pilot who had recently moved up to a DHV2-3 took a series of collapses and pounded in hard, crushing the pelvis and tailbone. Fortunately, no spinal cord injuries.
Two weeks prior, a group of us were flying (I was in HG) and the wind boosted by 10mph to 25mph. I flew over to a large field and landed. Two PG pilots were forced to land on the side of the mountain to avoid getting blown over the back into the rotor. No injuries, fortunately.
It is really easy to get complacent and forget about the potential of the wx to change adversely, the limitations of the aircraft, or the possibility of collapses at low altitude.
I want to have (and stay current in ) both types of wings to provide more options, and when I make good choices, I can maximize my airtime. Although I have been spending more time with PG than HG for the past five years, I will probably switch that ratio, when flying in Colorado and during the 'big air season'.
I usually choose PG for the sled rides and the mellow air flights like early day, evening, coastal soaring, and light wind glassoffs. After flying for six years, I am starting to feel a bit more comfortable flying in active air, but I plan to stay pretty conservative.
to recap: IMO, learning how to fly a PG is only the first small step. Staying uninjured (and maybe alive) requires developing good judgement and commitment to building experience and honing active flying skills.
I hope this is useful info for you in deciding.
'nuf said.
I'll go out on a limb and add my thoughts on the subject. First thing ... a PG is a completely different aircraft and HG flying skills do not translate directly to PG.
Learning to make turns and launch and land a PG is relatively easy, but flying one safely and 'properly' is a whole different story. It all starts with good instruction and devloping good habits, just like HG.
IMO, Critical PG skills including ground handling (launch skills) and canopy control, which takes some serious commitment. Any canopy (DHV1) can collapse, and the key to reducing or preventing collapses when flying in active air is to fly 'actively': to keep the wing pressurized, anticipate what the wing is doing and try to stay ahead of it, making proactive control inputs, because things can get out of control quickly.
I've been hanging out with some really good PG pilots trying to learn more, and was told that if I am looking at my canopy, rather than feeling what it is doing through my harness, I may be too late in taking corrective action to prevent a 'whack'.
Even with good active piloting skills, you can still end up with your wing in a wad. Once you get the basic skills (from a good instructor lkike Juan) and some flying experience, it is a good idea to attend an over-the-water clinic, where you practice different scenarios (including deflations) over water and learn how your wing will react.
Where PG is similar to HG: spatial orientation, judging glide angles (allthough PG glide angles are different), approaches, and most importantly the aspect of judgement ... the risk equation .. equipment, wx, site conditions, etc.
One cool thing about PG that is different than HG is the aspect of ground handling. You can get alot of experience 'flying' your canopy with your feet on the ground, and learning how it responds to body movements and changes in wind direction and velocity. I can't overstate how important it is to spend lots of time kiting. I spent months ground handling, practicing inflations, and 'killing the wing', and kiting before I even began to think about actually flying. It is extremely satisfying to kite a paraglider, and is a key skill.
Regarding collapses: Less than two weeks ago, we had an accident at Golden where a PG pilot who had recently moved up to a DHV2-3 took a series of collapses and pounded in hard, crushing the pelvis and tailbone. Fortunately, no spinal cord injuries.
Two weeks prior, a group of us were flying (I was in HG) and the wind boosted by 10mph to 25mph. I flew over to a large field and landed. Two PG pilots were forced to land on the side of the mountain to avoid getting blown over the back into the rotor. No injuries, fortunately.
It is really easy to get complacent and forget about the potential of the wx to change adversely, the limitations of the aircraft, or the possibility of collapses at low altitude.
I want to have (and stay current in ) both types of wings to provide more options, and when I make good choices, I can maximize my airtime. Although I have been spending more time with PG than HG for the past five years, I will probably switch that ratio, when flying in Colorado and during the 'big air season'.
I usually choose PG for the sled rides and the mellow air flights like early day, evening, coastal soaring, and light wind glassoffs. After flying for six years, I am starting to feel a bit more comfortable flying in active air, but I plan to stay pretty conservative.
to recap: IMO, learning how to fly a PG is only the first small step. Staying uninjured (and maybe alive) requires developing good judgement and commitment to building experience and honing active flying skills.
I hope this is useful info for you in deciding.
'nuf said.
'Spark
Re: Thoughts on switching to PG?
... and AlekMatthew wrote: PS Daniel B. and Steve K. and Ellis and Hugh and Jim R. are Biwingwal.
and what about Christy?.
'Spark
Re: Thoughts on switching to PG?
And John Middleton. Pretty good size crew of biwinguals around...
MarkC
MarkC
Re: Thoughts on switching to PG?
Not that there's anything wrong with that .... 
Re: Thoughts on switching to PG?
"It doesn't mean you're a bad PER-son!"
Sparky said it best. It's relatively easy to learn the minimal skills for launching/landing/flying in smooth conditions. But there is a lot of art in ground-handling, flying active air, judging conditions for a narrow performance envelope. Only things I would add are that a number of pilots have two hang-gliders:
- a higher performance wing for stronger conditions, long glides to the LZ
- a light-weight, lower performance wing for longer carries in to launch, tight LZs, light-wind conditions - a Falcon
I think of my PG as my Falcon.
The possibility of airline travel with the wing is key, of course. Of course, the airlines are starting to charge for a second checked bag - guess I'll be showing up at business meetings in jeans, boots, etc. I have had a couple of excellent experiences flying in California and Hawaii while on business. Nice laminar coastal breezes were essential...
Also, there is a new generation of "mountain" or "treking" wings and harnesses that pack smaller and lighter. BUT, they do this in part by eliminating butt protection in the harness. I am years away from having the confidence in my skills to fly "naked".
Sparky is responsible for making Daniel Broxterman and me biwingual. - Hugh
P.S. Make that "multiwingual" - been whoring off to the sailplane club - had a hookey day Thursday and my first couple of hours of thermaling. Bit more technical than HG/PG - ya gotta pay attention to airspeed - don't want to experience a stall/spin in a $60,000 fiberglass ship with those long, long high-aspect ratio wings at 3-500 AGL...
Sparky said it best. It's relatively easy to learn the minimal skills for launching/landing/flying in smooth conditions. But there is a lot of art in ground-handling, flying active air, judging conditions for a narrow performance envelope. Only things I would add are that a number of pilots have two hang-gliders:
- a higher performance wing for stronger conditions, long glides to the LZ
- a light-weight, lower performance wing for longer carries in to launch, tight LZs, light-wind conditions - a Falcon
I think of my PG as my Falcon.
The possibility of airline travel with the wing is key, of course. Of course, the airlines are starting to charge for a second checked bag - guess I'll be showing up at business meetings in jeans, boots, etc. I have had a couple of excellent experiences flying in California and Hawaii while on business. Nice laminar coastal breezes were essential...
Also, there is a new generation of "mountain" or "treking" wings and harnesses that pack smaller and lighter. BUT, they do this in part by eliminating butt protection in the harness. I am years away from having the confidence in my skills to fly "naked".
Sparky is responsible for making Daniel Broxterman and me biwingual. - Hugh
P.S. Make that "multiwingual" - been whoring off to the sailplane club - had a hookey day Thursday and my first couple of hours of thermaling. Bit more technical than HG/PG - ya gotta pay attention to airspeed - don't want to experience a stall/spin in a $60,000 fiberglass ship with those long, long high-aspect ratio wings at 3-500 AGL...
Re: Thoughts on switching to PG?
Hi Scott,
It's great that you want to learn Paragliding it is gonna be a lot easier for you because you already fly Hang gliders, you know that 50 % of flying is the decision making part and you already have that. The other part ground handling , control of the glider, and Flying it's really easy. I use to Fly Hang gliders a lot, also i'm a Hang glider instructor don't fly so often any more but i love to fly hang gliders any time i can, the reason i started flying Paragliders it was because it is a lot easier to fly again and again and again you probably know, going down take your glider apart and come back up put it together and get ready to fly again it takes a while. With a Paraglider you save time than you can use to be in the Air.
There are more reasons now why i fly Paragliders more than Hang gliders but that was the first one, now you have really good performance Gliders, excelent equipment you can travel any where in the world with your Paraglider.
Welcome to the world of Paragliding you will not regret it.
Juanito
Blueskies
It's great that you want to learn Paragliding it is gonna be a lot easier for you because you already fly Hang gliders, you know that 50 % of flying is the decision making part and you already have that. The other part ground handling , control of the glider, and Flying it's really easy. I use to Fly Hang gliders a lot, also i'm a Hang glider instructor don't fly so often any more but i love to fly hang gliders any time i can, the reason i started flying Paragliders it was because it is a lot easier to fly again and again and again you probably know, going down take your glider apart and come back up put it together and get ready to fly again it takes a while. With a Paraglider you save time than you can use to be in the Air.
There are more reasons now why i fly Paragliders more than Hang gliders but that was the first one, now you have really good performance Gliders, excelent equipment you can travel any where in the world with your Paraglider.
Welcome to the world of Paragliding you will not regret it.
Juanito
Blueskies
Re: Thoughts on switching to PG?
And JDmarkc wrote:And John Middleton. Pretty good size crew of biwinguals around...
MarkC
I thought Sparks summed it up pretty good
JD