I'm starting this thread to encourage discussion of the various ways
that we might attract new pilots to the sports of hang gliding and
paragliding, and to encourage newly-rated pilots to continue in the
sports once they are ready for solo flight.
Discussion helps. It refines ideas, and helps set priorities. I know that
there are many pilots out there who have opinions on this subject, and
I'm hoping we'll hear from them.
Let's keep it constructive and enthusiastic, eh? Thanks!
MarkC
Ideas for recruiting and retaining new pilots
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
IDEA ONE : Providing New Pilots With Better Information
During the Oct CHGPA meeting, Lisa Tate presented some statistics about the
high rate of "Hang-II drop outs" : a sample of newly-rated pilots had been
surveyed, and a large percentage had stopped flying within six months of
achieving their rating.
We tossed around ideas for what we might do to combat this problem.
One of them was to create an "Information for New Pilots" section at our
website, where we provide as much supportive information as possible.
So.... What do you think should be included?
If you are a fairly new pilot: Were there roadblocks which you encountered
that would have been helped with additional information on the website?
Let's hear some suggestions!
MarkC
During the Oct CHGPA meeting, Lisa Tate presented some statistics about the
high rate of "Hang-II drop outs" : a sample of newly-rated pilots had been
surveyed, and a large percentage had stopped flying within six months of
achieving their rating.
We tossed around ideas for what we might do to combat this problem.
One of them was to create an "Information for New Pilots" section at our
website, where we provide as much supportive information as possible.
So.... What do you think should be included?
If you are a fairly new pilot: Were there roadblocks which you encountered
that would have been helped with additional information on the website?
Let's hear some suggestions!
MarkC
IDEA TWO : Provide a "Learn To Fly" Resource That Will Help Attract New Pilots
In a conversation with Janni, he expressed frustration that there was
nothing at the CHGPA website that provides a big-picture view of how
one can go about learning to fly.
We're lucky because we've got multiple schools using multiple techniques
in our area. So we should provide a resource where people can see how
these techniques work, and learn about their respective advantages.
Video clips and photos could be used to convey the wide variety of
flying experiences that are available.
Janni has volunteered to help with the content. But we also want to hear
YOUR ideas about what could be done for such a project, so speak up and
be heard!
MarkC
In a conversation with Janni, he expressed frustration that there was
nothing at the CHGPA website that provides a big-picture view of how
one can go about learning to fly.
We're lucky because we've got multiple schools using multiple techniques
in our area. So we should provide a resource where people can see how
these techniques work, and learn about their respective advantages.
Video clips and photos could be used to convey the wide variety of
flying experiences that are available.
Janni has volunteered to help with the content. But we also want to hear
YOUR ideas about what could be done for such a project, so speak up and
be heard!
MarkC
First, I suggest moving this thread to 'Hang Gliding Flight Topics'. Not sure there's too many of us checking this clolumn out more often than once a year.
I've been trying to ask a bunch of H1's and H2's to give testimony about their training with special consideration of this subject. Haven't been able to reach many or extract a lot yet but I will keep at it.
So far the most noticeable things has been the huge chasm between the Capital club and the students. To them the club seems to be nothing much more than the Forum on chgpa.org if they know that much about it. They certainly do not associate the club and its people with something fun worth making a new or future priority in their spare time. I should also mention that the club's reputation for being a political monstrum isn't really helping either. I therefore suggest that we should take measures to A) Create / Intensify club presence at the training hills and tow parks B) Improve the club’s reputation by welcoming the students and organizing events around them and C) Offer mentor ship and help throughout the student’s training through various mechanisms. I offer my suggestions as to each of the above up for debate:
A)
We need to go to the training hills and tow parks with an agenda deeper than just bullsh****** people and getting a few flights on our new ship in. We need to talk to the students and encourage them to visit chgpa.org. We need to invite them to our mountain sites and make them see how amazing mountain flying is. We need to give them cards, brochures etc.
B)
Following up an A) I think it’s time we stop being self-absorbed with our H3 flying and start opening up to the younglings. I had the idea of organizing a training hill comp before the Pulpit Fly-In. I think it’s a fantastic idea to bring old and young farts together. There’s so many things we could do to convince them we’re bunch of guys worth hanging out with. Making them watch us fly isn’t really one of them.
C)
We need to find ways to inform them about the training tools available to them. We should discuss pro’s and con’s, quirks and roadblocks in this region. We should advise them on how to approach the schools and what they have to pay attention to. We should do that via a chgpa.org section devoted to the student and by direct one on one mentor ship.
I've been trying to ask a bunch of H1's and H2's to give testimony about their training with special consideration of this subject. Haven't been able to reach many or extract a lot yet but I will keep at it.
So far the most noticeable things has been the huge chasm between the Capital club and the students. To them the club seems to be nothing much more than the Forum on chgpa.org if they know that much about it. They certainly do not associate the club and its people with something fun worth making a new or future priority in their spare time. I should also mention that the club's reputation for being a political monstrum isn't really helping either. I therefore suggest that we should take measures to A) Create / Intensify club presence at the training hills and tow parks B) Improve the club’s reputation by welcoming the students and organizing events around them and C) Offer mentor ship and help throughout the student’s training through various mechanisms. I offer my suggestions as to each of the above up for debate:
A)
We need to go to the training hills and tow parks with an agenda deeper than just bullsh****** people and getting a few flights on our new ship in. We need to talk to the students and encourage them to visit chgpa.org. We need to invite them to our mountain sites and make them see how amazing mountain flying is. We need to give them cards, brochures etc.
B)
Following up an A) I think it’s time we stop being self-absorbed with our H3 flying and start opening up to the younglings. I had the idea of organizing a training hill comp before the Pulpit Fly-In. I think it’s a fantastic idea to bring old and young farts together. There’s so many things we could do to convince them we’re bunch of guys worth hanging out with. Making them watch us fly isn’t really one of them.
C)
We need to find ways to inform them about the training tools available to them. We should discuss pro’s and con’s, quirks and roadblocks in this region. We should advise them on how to approach the schools and what they have to pay attention to. We should do that via a chgpa.org section devoted to the student and by direct one on one mentor ship.
An older pilot's musings
This is good discussion. Let me give my thoughts on this subject. I started flying in 1990 because I wanted to fly and spend the least amount of money doing it. Had been going airshows for about a decade. Got tired of watching other people fly. Saw a Baltimore Sun newspaper article in June of 1990 about aerial delights around Baltimore (skydiving, sailplanes, general aviation, hot air ballooning, hang gliding). Took a sailplane ride and saw how relatively expensive it was and asked myself is there anything cheaper. Hang gliding fit the bill.
Got a Hang 1 from Kitty Hawk Kites. Bought a glider package from them. Brought it home to Maryland and took the cheap route and taught myself on the training hills. Not the smartest thing to do. But it worked out, and I got my Hang II in Nov. 1992. Stayed on the training hill until June of 1993 since a new harness was acquired in April, and I was very conservative in transitioning to the mountains. I wanted to be sure I was really ready with my equipment to take off from a mountain.
First mountain flights (2) were in June of 1993 at Bills Hill. Blew my next mountain launch at Woodstock. Luckily both I and the glider were unscathed. Went back to the training hill multiple times before I returned to the mountains in late August. Was a successful return to mountain flying, so I started to go to the Capital Hang Gliding Association club meetings. I felt I didn't really belong going to the meetings until I flew off of the mountains consistently.
During the period of flying the training hills from Oct. 1991 to June 1993, I saw a few pilots transition from taking lessons on the training hill
to flying the mountains. A few got the crap scared out of them by jumping into conditions they were not ready for or crashed and broke their arm. They ended up quitting the sport.
During 1995-1996 I served on the board of directors as the flight director. We had an absolutely awful spring of flying in 1995 with 4 serious accidents in 6 weeks. Three of those pilots quit flying (one was critically injured). I know of at least one pilot who quit because they witnessed firsthand one of the accidents. I witnessed an accident in November of 1995 where a pilot crashed landing and separated his shoulder. He quit flying right after that.
1996 saw two of our longtime club members lose their lives to flying accidents. 1997 thru 1999 saw more pilots quit flying due to accidents, whether landing in a tree and attempting to climb out of it and falling, to suffering internal injuries from slamming into the basetube or instruments on the basetube, to a broken arm crash landing.
I'm looking at a roster list of the Capitol Hang Gliding Association from April of 2000. There were 126 paid members at this time. I have looked at this list multiple times, and right now I see only about 20 people who regularly fly. I have categorized what happened to all the others. Some have moved away. Some were just folks who joined the club as a result of going to the meetings and thinking about getting into hang gliding and never did. Some have just dropped out, and unfortunately there were a few more accidents that claimed lives.
What conclusions can we draw from this history of the club from 1993 until the present? Here's what I see from this "database":
1. Accidents and fallout from accidents have greatly shrunk the number of active pilots.
2. A few pilots launched into conditions way over their head and had the crap scared out of them and ended up quitting.
3. Natural attrition (aging and lifestyle changes) has whittled away at the core group of active pilots.
In parallel, there has not been enough of an influx of "new blood" to keep pace with the attrition of the club.
What can be done? I know that I have preached the gospel of hang gliding to almost every male candidate I have come in contact with since 1992, and I have only gotten one person to completely go all the way to the mountains. This pilot is still actively flying today. Lesson from this: only people who WANT TO FLY will fly, and persevere through all the crap that is not right with the transition from the training hill to the mountains(observers less than friendly with Hang IIs, etc. etc.) , and make the Hang III rating and continue to fly.
Increasing the support of fledglings graduating from the training hill to the mountains to retain them is good, but I feel that is not the silver bullet. The pilot can have all the advice and help come his way, but he must also have plenty of intestinal fortitude to continue on the trek.
Bacil
Got a Hang 1 from Kitty Hawk Kites. Bought a glider package from them. Brought it home to Maryland and took the cheap route and taught myself on the training hills. Not the smartest thing to do. But it worked out, and I got my Hang II in Nov. 1992. Stayed on the training hill until June of 1993 since a new harness was acquired in April, and I was very conservative in transitioning to the mountains. I wanted to be sure I was really ready with my equipment to take off from a mountain.
First mountain flights (2) were in June of 1993 at Bills Hill. Blew my next mountain launch at Woodstock. Luckily both I and the glider were unscathed. Went back to the training hill multiple times before I returned to the mountains in late August. Was a successful return to mountain flying, so I started to go to the Capital Hang Gliding Association club meetings. I felt I didn't really belong going to the meetings until I flew off of the mountains consistently.
During the period of flying the training hills from Oct. 1991 to June 1993, I saw a few pilots transition from taking lessons on the training hill
to flying the mountains. A few got the crap scared out of them by jumping into conditions they were not ready for or crashed and broke their arm. They ended up quitting the sport.
During 1995-1996 I served on the board of directors as the flight director. We had an absolutely awful spring of flying in 1995 with 4 serious accidents in 6 weeks. Three of those pilots quit flying (one was critically injured). I know of at least one pilot who quit because they witnessed firsthand one of the accidents. I witnessed an accident in November of 1995 where a pilot crashed landing and separated his shoulder. He quit flying right after that.
1996 saw two of our longtime club members lose their lives to flying accidents. 1997 thru 1999 saw more pilots quit flying due to accidents, whether landing in a tree and attempting to climb out of it and falling, to suffering internal injuries from slamming into the basetube or instruments on the basetube, to a broken arm crash landing.
I'm looking at a roster list of the Capitol Hang Gliding Association from April of 2000. There were 126 paid members at this time. I have looked at this list multiple times, and right now I see only about 20 people who regularly fly. I have categorized what happened to all the others. Some have moved away. Some were just folks who joined the club as a result of going to the meetings and thinking about getting into hang gliding and never did. Some have just dropped out, and unfortunately there were a few more accidents that claimed lives.
What conclusions can we draw from this history of the club from 1993 until the present? Here's what I see from this "database":
1. Accidents and fallout from accidents have greatly shrunk the number of active pilots.
2. A few pilots launched into conditions way over their head and had the crap scared out of them and ended up quitting.
3. Natural attrition (aging and lifestyle changes) has whittled away at the core group of active pilots.
In parallel, there has not been enough of an influx of "new blood" to keep pace with the attrition of the club.
What can be done? I know that I have preached the gospel of hang gliding to almost every male candidate I have come in contact with since 1992, and I have only gotten one person to completely go all the way to the mountains. This pilot is still actively flying today. Lesson from this: only people who WANT TO FLY will fly, and persevere through all the crap that is not right with the transition from the training hill to the mountains(observers less than friendly with Hang IIs, etc. etc.) , and make the Hang III rating and continue to fly.
Increasing the support of fledglings graduating from the training hill to the mountains to retain them is good, but I feel that is not the silver bullet. The pilot can have all the advice and help come his way, but he must also have plenty of intestinal fortitude to continue on the trek.
Bacil
There is NO silver bullet.Increasing the support of fledglings graduating from the training hill to the mountains to retain them is good, but I feel that is not the silver bullet.
All we can do is a bit here, and a bit there, in the hopes that it will all
somehow add up to more 'recruits', more awareness about flying
opportunities, and more rated-and-retained pilots.
Bacil, it seems that you are willing to entertain the idea that more
support for fledglings would be a good thing. Do you have anything
specific in mind? Also, if your attempts to spread the word among
friends yielded only one active pilot, have you had any thoughts
about alternative approaches that might be worth a try?
Accidents happen. Some people get in over their head, and fly in
conditions that they aren't ready for. People get married, have kids,
etc. None of this seems surprising or strange to me.... However!
To me, this is the key issue. I've only been around since the mid-90's,In parallel, there has not been enough of an influx of "new blood" to keep pace with the attrition of the club.
but I find it hard to believe that the number of accidents has dramatically
increased, or that more pilots are scaring themselves, and of course
pilots have always dropped out at various times due to family,
work, etc responsibilities.
So how come the new blood has dried up?
I'm not even sure I care about the 'why'...
But I definitely do care about the 'what', as in, 'what can we do' ?
MarkC
I think one reason our numbers are going down is because they were unsustainably high before. HG went through explosive growth in the 70s; it was THE cool thing to do. It's natural that we've been on a downward trend ever since.
The eye-opener for me in Lisa Tate's talk was the low percentage of IIs that become IIIs. There's the opportunity for improvement. Not sure how to fix that, but we may have a chance if we get access to USHPA's list of new IIs. It's hard being the new kid on the block, especially for a bunch of left-handed introverts (inside joke from Lisa's talk). As a right-handed introvert, it was totally unnatural for me to reach out and break in to a new social group. And calling observers was downright painful--despite the fact that they were unfailingly helpful. But, short of downgrading all our sites to HII, I'm not sure how the fix that. Sounds like Janni has some ideas.
The eye-opener for me in Lisa Tate's talk was the low percentage of IIs that become IIIs. There's the opportunity for improvement. Not sure how to fix that, but we may have a chance if we get access to USHPA's list of new IIs. It's hard being the new kid on the block, especially for a bunch of left-handed introverts (inside joke from Lisa's talk). As a right-handed introvert, it was totally unnatural for me to reach out and break in to a new social group. And calling observers was downright painful--despite the fact that they were unfailingly helpful. But, short of downgrading all our sites to HII, I'm not sure how the fix that. Sounds like Janni has some ideas.
David Bodner
There's ways to raise general interest. I'm just talking away here, have no idea how much it would cost the club.
Has anyone ever looked into local TV and movie theatre comericials? A short vidoe clip by Gary could do wonders. If some dodgy Dodge dealership can do it, we should be able to. Could we find sponsors for that?
How about the club trains somebody to become a tandem foot launch instructor? The whole thing would pay for itself over the long run and do more promotionwise than flying loops in front of the Pulpit biker bar.
How about we take a hang glider and a nice video to the high schools? Lots of rich and bored kids in Montgomery county.
How about we use the Fly-Ins to raise funds for these things?
Has anyone ever looked into local TV and movie theatre comericials? A short vidoe clip by Gary could do wonders. If some dodgy Dodge dealership can do it, we should be able to. Could we find sponsors for that?
How about the club trains somebody to become a tandem foot launch instructor? The whole thing would pay for itself over the long run and do more promotionwise than flying loops in front of the Pulpit biker bar.
How about we take a hang glider and a nice video to the high schools? Lots of rich and bored kids in Montgomery county.
How about we use the Fly-Ins to raise funds for these things?
well, since you all are "just talkin":
how's kitty hawk kites been doing? it seemed that in the past (yeah, i know, but it's what i got) i ran across more people who were not pilots who knew about, heard about , or tried, or started flying because there was a large word of mouth element/exposure to KHK. before i started flying, knew anyone who flew, or even saw KHK - i'd heard about it from other outdoorsey people, and later from acquaintances (although most didn't even know that HG went beyond flying the dunes, but that's beside the point (if i ever do manage to make a point!).
golf cart towing and other innovations? how about tying in with some beach festival (sandy point park or something that already draws a crowd and is promoted well). in addition to a christmas party, set up a beach party so there's a bunch of pilots willing to come and have a good time for its own sake, be able to play (and create a spectacle) with the low tow apparatus, introductory opportunities for newbies, same time same place every year, blah, blah blah.
btw, my experience of "fighting to find the sport", the fight to find observers, the attrition of the H2's was the same as it apparently still is. but i don't remember anyone who *really* wanted to fly dropping out for those reasons. it may be that it's always going to be true that you've got to almost obsessively love it to put up with the realities and demands of *doing* it. getting the costs down for new entries strikes me as having been important - those who are at a particular age, energy, life/work/girlfriend stage, generally aren't rolling in the dough just yet (and chasing dough may not be the mindset of those who are inclined to chase the wind).
how's kitty hawk kites been doing? it seemed that in the past (yeah, i know, but it's what i got) i ran across more people who were not pilots who knew about, heard about , or tried, or started flying because there was a large word of mouth element/exposure to KHK. before i started flying, knew anyone who flew, or even saw KHK - i'd heard about it from other outdoorsey people, and later from acquaintances (although most didn't even know that HG went beyond flying the dunes, but that's beside the point (if i ever do manage to make a point!).
golf cart towing and other innovations? how about tying in with some beach festival (sandy point park or something that already draws a crowd and is promoted well). in addition to a christmas party, set up a beach party so there's a bunch of pilots willing to come and have a good time for its own sake, be able to play (and create a spectacle) with the low tow apparatus, introductory opportunities for newbies, same time same place every year, blah, blah blah.
btw, my experience of "fighting to find the sport", the fight to find observers, the attrition of the H2's was the same as it apparently still is. but i don't remember anyone who *really* wanted to fly dropping out for those reasons. it may be that it's always going to be true that you've got to almost obsessively love it to put up with the realities and demands of *doing* it. getting the costs down for new entries strikes me as having been important - those who are at a particular age, energy, life/work/girlfriend stage, generally aren't rolling in the dough just yet (and chasing dough may not be the mindset of those who are inclined to chase the wind).
garyDevan
More musings
The one reason I pointed out the fact that a few pilots got scared and quit the club is that it did not and does not have to happen that way. We can't afford to scare Hang II pilots on their second and third mountain flights, especially with the incredibly shrinking pool of potential pilots today. Read Gary Smith's account of his flight (his 3rd mountain flight?) on 9/15/2000 on the Hangola Page. We are lucky that Gary really enjoys hang gliding and did not let his experience of 9/15/2000 set back his passion for flying. The problem is that Gary is the exception rather than the rule. The majority of Hang II pilots that experience that kind of flight are so shell-shocked from it they end up quitting.
The reason I mentioned accidents and fallout from accidents is that I feel that many of those are preventable as well. It's such a damn shame that blowing launches and ending up in trees cause long or permanent absences from active flying. All that investment in time, money, and training chucked by the wayside. When I screwed up my third mountain launch at Woodstock, which only resulted in a ground loop in heavy brush (thank goodness!) below the runway, I went back to the basics immediately. I was aghast that the two pilots who helped me extract the glider from the brush suggested that I try to take off again! They thought it was no big deal. I said no way, I'm going back to the training hill. And I did. I launched successfully at Woodstock 3 months after the incident and got the monkey off my back.
I have a question that somebody may be able to answer. I'm curious as to how many of the active tow only pilots are members of the CHGPA, since towing has enabled more to be exposed to the sport of hang gliding. Or, broken down, what percentage of the club are tow only pilots from Highland? Blue Sky? (for statistical purposes only).
I will continue to preach the gospel of hang gliding to anybody who will listen. I'm not giving up on that. But as I said before, the individual has to have the passion and the will to get into and continue in the sport. No amount of preaching and caregiving will substitute for it. Those are just the plain facts. At the Dulles Airport NASM Annex in June, the group of pilot volunteers talked to many people. Does anybody (Daniel?) know if any of the people we cajoled and tried to talk into trying hang gliding has actually taken a lesson yet?
Every flight report I share on the forum I try to write in a "lessons learned" style, with references to safety margin in a lot of the situations experienced during the flight. I hope that Hang IIs with very little experience read them and use them in their quest to advance in experience, skills, and judgement. That is my "quest".
Bacil
The reason I mentioned accidents and fallout from accidents is that I feel that many of those are preventable as well. It's such a damn shame that blowing launches and ending up in trees cause long or permanent absences from active flying. All that investment in time, money, and training chucked by the wayside. When I screwed up my third mountain launch at Woodstock, which only resulted in a ground loop in heavy brush (thank goodness!) below the runway, I went back to the basics immediately. I was aghast that the two pilots who helped me extract the glider from the brush suggested that I try to take off again! They thought it was no big deal. I said no way, I'm going back to the training hill. And I did. I launched successfully at Woodstock 3 months after the incident and got the monkey off my back.
I have a question that somebody may be able to answer. I'm curious as to how many of the active tow only pilots are members of the CHGPA, since towing has enabled more to be exposed to the sport of hang gliding. Or, broken down, what percentage of the club are tow only pilots from Highland? Blue Sky? (for statistical purposes only).
I will continue to preach the gospel of hang gliding to anybody who will listen. I'm not giving up on that. But as I said before, the individual has to have the passion and the will to get into and continue in the sport. No amount of preaching and caregiving will substitute for it. Those are just the plain facts. At the Dulles Airport NASM Annex in June, the group of pilot volunteers talked to many people. Does anybody (Daniel?) know if any of the people we cajoled and tried to talk into trying hang gliding has actually taken a lesson yet?
Every flight report I share on the forum I try to write in a "lessons learned" style, with references to safety margin in a lot of the situations experienced during the flight. I hope that Hang IIs with very little experience read them and use them in their quest to advance in experience, skills, and judgement. That is my "quest".
Bacil
I think Gary D. nailed it when talking about the age group to get into flying. Hang gliding took off in the 70's because it was cheap enough that college students could do it. Now you have to be pulling in a decent pay check, which really cuts into your time. I don't think anyone wants to go back to the cheap experimental days, so we have to face reality. People who currently earn enough money to learn how to hang glide have less time.
This is somewhat contradicted by the size of the GA population, but GAer's are all pretty well off, and being an airplane pilot carries status that we HG pilots (no matter how we see ourselves in our own minds) do not.
Since manufacturing only becomes cheaper if the number of buyers increase, I don't see an easy solution. Maybe a fantastic technological breakthrough will cost the price of gliders in half, but I'm not holding my breath.
We're just gonna be smaller than before. That doesn't mean we should give up on the advertising and training improvements.
This is somewhat contradicted by the size of the GA population, but GAer's are all pretty well off, and being an airplane pilot carries status that we HG pilots (no matter how we see ourselves in our own minds) do not.
Since manufacturing only becomes cheaper if the number of buyers increase, I don't see an easy solution. Maybe a fantastic technological breakthrough will cost the price of gliders in half, but I'm not holding my breath.
We're just gonna be smaller than before. That doesn't mean we should give up on the advertising and training improvements.
Brian Vant-Hull
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davidtheamazing1
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:26 am
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My Thoughts
Hey all,
from the perspective of a potentially new pilot I think the biggest barrier was the awareness. I had an interest in aviation but not the big budget of a GA pilot. Living in the city here, you occasionally see small planes, but you don't see gliders or people hang gliding. What I didn't realize was that for a metropolitan area, we actually have a multitude of resources in the area, and many mountain ranges with a mostly favorable geography.
What sparked my interest to the point of signing up for lessons was talking to someone who is in the club. My previous thinking was that hang gliding is a California/Colorado/west coast thing, that I might take up if I were relocating west.
As a beginning student, the most frustrating aspects are: 1. waking up early to check in, 2. Driving out to a distant training hill (ie kirshner), 3. finding out that the wind conditions are less than ideal, or having it canceled altogether because weather deviates from the forecast. Also, I was initially not impressed by the lack of facilities at the training sites. With the exception of Oregon Ridge, local training hills have no bathroom, no water, snacks, etc. These are features that a student... especially a female student would expect.
While the costs are not insignificant, a foot launch lesson is not crazy compared to a day of skiing plus lesson and rental.
I think alot of the challenges of our area can be mitigated with a good scooter tow instruction that is close to the city, on a wide field with a possibility of launching in many directions, and with access to a park/bathroom/water jug. Also, a tow rig helps reduce the need for the need of students to be super athletic on their first day of instruction.
While the athleticism wasn't a big issue for me personally, many of the students that I had classes with were not comfortable dragging around, lifting, and running with big/ awkward 45-50lb gliders for an entire first day. I believe at KHK, they hire "assistant instructors" that carry the gliders around for beginners.
from the perspective of a potentially new pilot I think the biggest barrier was the awareness. I had an interest in aviation but not the big budget of a GA pilot. Living in the city here, you occasionally see small planes, but you don't see gliders or people hang gliding. What I didn't realize was that for a metropolitan area, we actually have a multitude of resources in the area, and many mountain ranges with a mostly favorable geography.
What sparked my interest to the point of signing up for lessons was talking to someone who is in the club. My previous thinking was that hang gliding is a California/Colorado/west coast thing, that I might take up if I were relocating west.
As a beginning student, the most frustrating aspects are: 1. waking up early to check in, 2. Driving out to a distant training hill (ie kirshner), 3. finding out that the wind conditions are less than ideal, or having it canceled altogether because weather deviates from the forecast. Also, I was initially not impressed by the lack of facilities at the training sites. With the exception of Oregon Ridge, local training hills have no bathroom, no water, snacks, etc. These are features that a student... especially a female student would expect.
While the costs are not insignificant, a foot launch lesson is not crazy compared to a day of skiing plus lesson and rental.
I think alot of the challenges of our area can be mitigated with a good scooter tow instruction that is close to the city, on a wide field with a possibility of launching in many directions, and with access to a park/bathroom/water jug. Also, a tow rig helps reduce the need for the need of students to be super athletic on their first day of instruction.
While the athleticism wasn't a big issue for me personally, many of the students that I had classes with were not comfortable dragging around, lifting, and running with big/ awkward 45-50lb gliders for an entire first day. I believe at KHK, they hire "assistant instructors" that carry the gliders around for beginners.
Thanks for your post David. I think your perspective assuming that it's more or less representative is the most important one in this discussion.
You say lack of awareness and lack of infrastructure are likely major road blocks, which I completey agree with. The training hill I think is largely a killer rather than a maker, no matter what your initial level of interest is. It's true, only the most determined will put up with it because it's SET UP THAT WAY. I'm sure many potential pilots have been lost because of the issues David described. I've personally seen many arrive with great excitement and left two hours later with as much disgust.
Having a local scooter tow operation for newbies would be of immeasurable value. I know other H2's who take issues with the lack of such a thing. Don't understand why John and Richard haven't come around yet.
The problem of letting people know there's such a thing as HG is entirely within the club's sphere of influence. The club could also raise funds and find a field as incentives to get them to jump on the train.
I suggest we stop with the romantic nonsense about burning desires and passion and become practical. We need to talk to John, Richard and get everybdoy aboard and make a real effort rather than whining about going extinct over a beer in front of a computer. Everybody has a lot on their plates, that's why everybody needs to do something. How serious are we?
You say lack of awareness and lack of infrastructure are likely major road blocks, which I completey agree with. The training hill I think is largely a killer rather than a maker, no matter what your initial level of interest is. It's true, only the most determined will put up with it because it's SET UP THAT WAY. I'm sure many potential pilots have been lost because of the issues David described. I've personally seen many arrive with great excitement and left two hours later with as much disgust.
Having a local scooter tow operation for newbies would be of immeasurable value. I know other H2's who take issues with the lack of such a thing. Don't understand why John and Richard haven't come around yet.
The problem of letting people know there's such a thing as HG is entirely within the club's sphere of influence. The club could also raise funds and find a field as incentives to get them to jump on the train.
I suggest we stop with the romantic nonsense about burning desires and passion and become practical. We need to talk to John, Richard and get everybdoy aboard and make a real effort rather than whining about going extinct over a beer in front of a computer. Everybody has a lot on their plates, that's why everybody needs to do something. How serious are we?
oh go take a flying leap off a cliff. absolutely wrong type of thing to say when an invitation has been issued to freely toss out ideas. the purpose of "blue-skying" it, is to let stuff flow and let combinations occur. the point isn't to critique, but to add. but ya know, it's just an opinion.RedBaron wrote: I suggest we stop with the romantic nonsense about burning desires and passion and become practical.
garyDevan
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hepcat1989
- Posts: 684
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:15 pm
Re: My Thoughts
Jesus! Are you kidding me here! The training hills are about testing your meddle. Seeing if you want to stick and hang in there. To see if you have a pair! Christ! It's not about Gummie Bears, Doritos and Green Tea!davidtheamazing1 wrote: Also, I was initially not impressed by the lack of facilities at the training sites. With the exception of Oregon Ridge, local training hills have no bathroom, no water, snacks, etc. These are features that a student... especially a female student would expect.
David, I'm just friggin with ya.
Seriously though I understand the weight of the conversation.....
I agree with Bacil.
Yep. Shawn.
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hepcat1989
- Posts: 684
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:15 pm
Although, Janni's idea about TV commercials could be good. Jeep, Toyota, Nissan etc. Extreme shit, you know....... HMMMM... Ok, now you have a few more people willing to give "er" a try. Ok, Allright.... How many of those would stay in the saddle until they are ready and still want to try hang gliding because of some "bitchin" bad ass commercial they had seen on telebision! People now a days, it seems, want insta gratification.
( Get impatient waiting for the microwave to heat up lunch. Oh, come on! come on!) I don't know man...
That's a tough one Mark.....
SCREW IT, Let's Fly The Pulpit Tomorrow!
Shawn.
( Get impatient waiting for the microwave to heat up lunch. Oh, come on! come on!) I don't know man...
That's a tough one Mark.....
SCREW IT, Let's Fly The Pulpit Tomorrow!
Shawn.
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bustedwing2
- Posts: 249
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:58 pm
- Location: McConnellsburg,Pa
marketing
Got to advertise to the younger crowd with bucks and time,sense of adventure,willing to put up with discomfort,and perseverence.You'll find people of that description sailing and reading sailing magazines,maybe try a few ad's in Cruising World and Chesapeake Bay magazine.2centsworth. RichB
What does anyone think of the idea of getting a scooter tow system and setting up in a park? We might be able to get a couple of tows in before an authority figure kicks us out.
Of course it means getting the equipment--and the training to run it. But it might be fun. And we wouldn't be competing with the established instructors--just doing low tows for existing pilots.
Of course it means getting the equipment--and the training to run it. But it might be fun. And we wouldn't be competing with the established instructors--just doing low tows for existing pilots.
David Bodner
Paul Voight's son did a survey in his communications class - what were people's impressions about hang gliding? ALL the responses were about danger and wild-ass stuff. Nobody wanted to try it. Then he gave a 5-10 minute presentation providing a more in depth view of the reality of hang gliding, and 20% said they might try it. Not as many as who may want to try surfing, but it's still something from nothing. I'll concede I'm wrong about saying with the internet communication is no longer a problem. But the problem isn't access, it's perception.
He and his H2 fiance are moving out to Salt Lake city in December, and I'm really PO's about them leaving. They're in their early 20's, and are real bright spots in the local community. It would be nice to get more young people into the sport. Gotta hack into ipods to provide subliminal motivation.
He and his H2 fiance are moving out to Salt Lake city in December, and I'm really PO's about them leaving. They're in their early 20's, and are real bright spots in the local community. It would be nice to get more young people into the sport. Gotta hack into ipods to provide subliminal motivation.
Brian Vant-Hull
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Danny Brotto
- Posts: 709
- Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:29 pm
Training Hills...
Hang gliding flourished (relatively speaking) when the training hills were the only option available in student training. Bath rooms were not necessarily included in the package then either.
There are a host of other dynamics contributing to the drop in new members and students but walking up a training hill, while potentially contributing to a host of negatives, is not a root cause. It may however be a detractor for a group that we are trying to appeal to.
Danny Brotto
There are a host of other dynamics contributing to the drop in new members and students but walking up a training hill, while potentially contributing to a host of negatives, is not a root cause. It may however be a detractor for a group that we are trying to appeal to.
Danny Brotto
Root causes...hmmm:
if the higher cost of hang gliding today pushes it into the older demographic, not only do they have less time, but they may be the same age group that was around when hang gliding was much more dangerous than it was today. It depends on the age group: my 40 somethings age group probably has the money but hit cultural awareness in the 1980's when HG was becoming safer. I think the 50 somethings may have a different perception. Of course Ryan's survey shows that the old dangerous wild-ass viewpoint is predominant regardless of age group. Need to catch 'em in grade school. Right now we're picking up folks during their mid-life crisis (though I'd prefer to call it a second phase of teenage experimentation).
if the higher cost of hang gliding today pushes it into the older demographic, not only do they have less time, but they may be the same age group that was around when hang gliding was much more dangerous than it was today. It depends on the age group: my 40 somethings age group probably has the money but hit cultural awareness in the 1980's when HG was becoming safer. I think the 50 somethings may have a different perception. Of course Ryan's survey shows that the old dangerous wild-ass viewpoint is predominant regardless of age group. Need to catch 'em in grade school. Right now we're picking up folks during their mid-life crisis (though I'd prefer to call it a second phase of teenage experimentation).
Brian Vant-Hull
I like the idea of trying to appeal to kids... Brian, you've used hang gliding
as a topic for 'physics-is-fun' sorts of classes.
Perhaps USHPA should develop a curriculum that could be presented
to a class of high school'ers, and then make it available to the chapters
for adaptation/use in their local areas?
Tough to estimate the cost/benefit... Successful use would probably
require a motivated pilot with good communication skills, who could
present the fun/practical side, while the science teacher focussed on
the academic side. And how many of those pilots do we have? Hmmm....
MarkC
as a topic for 'physics-is-fun' sorts of classes.
Perhaps USHPA should develop a curriculum that could be presented
to a class of high school'ers, and then make it available to the chapters
for adaptation/use in their local areas?
Tough to estimate the cost/benefit... Successful use would probably
require a motivated pilot with good communication skills, who could
present the fun/practical side, while the science teacher focussed on
the academic side. And how many of those pilots do we have? Hmmm....
MarkC