H3 Syndrome thoughts from a recent sufferer

[breezyk1d]

I have had some interesting online discussions with some long time pilots concerning my blown launch, and High Rock launch conditions in general, and some H3 issues.

These discussions have germinated an idea which I would like to propose: that the longtime pilots who fly our local club sites could compile their thoughts on various launch conditions at these sites, and this could be made available online for anyone wishing to look into the site specific conditions more, or perhaps it could be included in the site guide (but that makes it more static unless the site guide could be posted to the internet and updated regularly.)

I did not think that I was being particularly stupid, proud, thick-headed, or that I was necessarily making an unwise choice to decide to fly the day I blew my launch at High Rock. Duuuh.

The question which started me thinking was, "did I think I had enough information or input from observers as a recent 3, to handle the launch conditions?" and "did I think that more cliff launches should be required before a windy cliff sign-off?)

My initial reaction was that yes, more cliff launches would be a good idea, and that I was in possesion of all the information which I needed. But then I thought back to how I felt as 2 and realized that more cliff launches were not going to save my butt from the 3 syndrome, and if I had all the info, then why did I blow my launch anyway?

As embarrassing as this is to admit - here goes: I had the best observer in the world on my wing crew the day I blew my launch. I knew that he felt I shouldn't launch in those conditions (HE wasn't even launching - CLUE, MAJOR CLUE!), but I also did not want to discuss this with him because I thought that as a 3, I should be making my own decisions. I thought if I started asking advanced pilots to discuss the conditions with me, I THOUGHT/FELT that I would not be living up to the trust that was placed in me as someone who was now expected to be able to analyze conditions herself. This has to be the most ass-backward way of thinking imaginable! Yet it was a major component of my thinking that day.

It sure would not have hurt for me to open my mouth to discuss these thoughts at the time. Of course there were more dynamics at work than just that (lots of other long time pilots were launching, so why couldn't I manage to do it properly...as well as struggling against the feeling of needing to break out of the observer/student role).

So, after-the-fact, I have been the recipient of invaluable comments about conditions at HR which would be worth their weight in gold to help reduce the prevalance of the H3 syndrome problem, or at least so it seems to me. Does anyone else feel that a collection of long timer pilot thoughts on various launch conditions which are site specific and are made available to whomever the knowledge base decides the info could/should be made available to, would be worth having?

Of course, this same information is probably available in various formats elsewhere (in general from the Pagin books on windy cliff launches, from face to face discussion with various long time pilots, from previous postings to the forums, etc) but having it collected, and be site specific, and be from our local pilots who fly our local sites, and having it readily available in a non-face-to-face format seems to be that it would provide an additional measure of checks and balances for new H3?s.

I was aware of the windy cliff launch issues from the text book when I blew my launch anyway. I had the personal resources available to me at the time, and have had the information discussed with me many times prior to my blown launch. Does another format for the information make sense to anyone, like making it a non-face-to-face source of information? There is no way we can save everyone from problems associated with the H3 syndrome, but maybe we can provide more info in more varied formats, and catch more of us before rather than after? What say the wise? -Linda

[brianvh]

I think written site-specific pointers is an excellent idea. Most if not all information you get from observers is vocal, and it wouldn't hurt to have something you can study and obsess over in the long periods between launches. That may have saved you from launching too far back...something which you've primarily heard as advice while on launch. That last minute reminder largely disappears once you don't require an observer.

You'll find lots of conflicting advice, but that's not a bad thing if all the reasoning is laid out. I do believe we can reach a consensus with varying points of view.

We could start right in the listserve, with a separate thread for each site, then go back and condense it, posting the final result permanently on the website.

[hang_pilot]

an idea which I would like to propose: that the longtime pilots who fly our local club sites could compile their thoughts on various launch conditions at these sites, and this could be made available online for anyone wishing to look into the site specific conditions more, or perhaps it could be included in the site guide (but that makes it more static unless the site guide could be posted to the internet and updated regularly.)

That's a great idea, Linda. I have also been thinking of ways we could record some of the collective wisdom on flying our most popular sites. My first thought was a site of the issue column in Skyline with wise snipets from local legends: recruited comments as well as list serve gems.

Recording that information in a site guide would give it more long lived exposure. With Hugh taking over the guide gig this winter, your proposal is one we will put in his suggestion box. If it doesn't work out in the site guide, maybe the next Flight Director will want to run with it: on our website and in the Skyline.

So glad that you are o.k.!

Happy New Year everyone.

~Daniel

[Flying Lobster]

If you do a search of this and/or the old listserve you will probably find a lifetime's worth of reading on advice for launching at the Rock.

marc

[XCanytime]

???? Linda, first of all, we are very glad that you didn't get hurt.? Second, your honesty about discussing the accident and the possible root causes is an admirable attitude.? We have had this happen before, where pilots have boomeranged left or right off of the cube into the trees.? The pilots have been Hang 2s, Hang 3s, and maybe even Hang 4s.?
???? My thoughts on this scenario, and I expressed some in an article in the newsletter in early 1997 (due to a Hang 2 boomeranging into the setup area left of launch), are in the physics of the event.? In a windy launch, be it cliff or otherwise, timing is everything, but the positioning of the glider is also quite important.? At High Rock, in particular, the safest place to be in any significant wind is right at the edge of the cube.? What defines significant wind?? I would say 10 MPH.? The glider must be in the position that allows it the "cleanest" airflow, to minimize the wings being lifted and the nose being pitched up and down, and that position is right at the edge.? That being said, now what comes into play is the balancing of the glider with the two wiremen and the keel person.? In any significant wind they are very critical to the success of the launch.? Lastly, the timing must be right to launch successfully, with minimal pitch or roll input required to fly out away from the mountain.?
???? I said this in 1997, and I'll say it again here.? I feel that the best and safest way to gain valuable experience in balancing a glider in higher winds, and practicing wire launches in higher winds, with two wiremen and a keel person, is at the Smithsburg training hill.? During the wintertime when the hill is open, the wind often blows quite strongly, 15 to 20 MPH steadily all day somedays, offering conditions that approximate the conditions that can be experienced at High Rock, or any mountain launch for that matter.? A blown launch at Smithsburg carries much lower risk than at High Rock.? Getting experience balancing a glider at Smithsburg will carry over at High Rock, and at any mountain launch for that matter.? The "feel" of the glider balanced is a critical requirement for initiating the launch.? The AOA is critical for the balancing of the glider.? A pilot can have their buddies hold the side wires while the pilot adjusts the AOA to get the right nose attitude to balance the glider at Smithsburg.? However, (back to High Rock) if the nose is popped on launch, the high AOA will exaggerate any roll tendency.? If the airspeed is also low (glider not at the edge of the cube in the cleaner airflow at High Rock), that is a double whammy, and the potential for the glider to roll drastically left or right is increased.? However, at Smithsburg, the glider is in the airflow by default, and the "feel" of the glider in the airflow, balanced, at the right AOA, should load into the pilot's memory if they practice this enough.
???? Lastly, the timing of the launch can blow the launch, even if you are at the edge, and the glider is balanced.? Timing of launching is another skill that can be enhanced by training at Smithsburg in higher winds.? This is where wind watching and cycle watching come into play.? At Smithsburg you can set up a few windsocks and a Hall ASI at the top of the hill.? Watching the wind meter and the cycles in the windsocks, balancing the glider, and launching (well) repeatedly in this scenario, will build up the experience and "muscle" memory that will eventually become instinctive.? This is when the pilot has reached the zenith, when they react instinctively to the conditions with proper balancing of the glider, timing of the launch, and safely launching away from the hill with good airspeed, AOA, and level wings.? There is no substitute for experience.? Granted, Smithsburg is not High Rock.? They have different topographies.? They have different airflow behaviors.? But the principles are the same, and I feel that Smithsburg offers this very valuable experience at a much lower risk than High Rock, or any mountain for that matter.
???? From the article in 1997, I stated that the pilot did not have to launch, no matter what anybody around him said (He was a Hang 2 at the time.? A Hang 2 cannot launch unless an observer OKs them to launch).? If it does not feel right to the pilot, then they should not launch.? It is the pilot's choice to not launch.? Do not launch just because others tell you it's OK to launch.? It may be OK for them, but is it for you?? Are you ready for the challenging conditions you will be faced with on top of the cube at High Rock?? Do you have experience launching in higher winds?
???? Disclaimer:? I am not advocating flying in higher winds.? Pilots should fly in winds commensurate with their rating.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Bacil
???

[dbodner]

I don't think the launch/no launch decision was what screwed you up.? Those conditions were eminently launchable, though I had concerns about the winds aloft.? The problem was where you launched from.
I was on your left wire.? You picked up the glider near the rear of the rock because you wanted to feel it as we walked slowly forward.? During that walk I was giving steady verbal feedback (light up, neutral) when you yelled "clear!" around the middle of the rock.? I wonder if that verbal feedback increases pilot anxiety like a Little League infielder yelling, "Hey batter, batter!"? It just makes you want to swing.? Next time I wire, I'm not going to give the pilot feedback until we're at the edge.? And I guess I better say so up front.

Most pilots that, in fact, picked up their gliders and slowly walked toward the front.? Some launched toward the front, others closer to the middle.? I guess pilots want to "feel" their gliders.? But what are they really feeling?? What the glider feels like in the middle of the rock has nothing to do with what it feels like once it's in the airstream.? You might as well roll it forward on your wheels and pick it up only after you reach the edge.

My take, as a low-hour H3.

Dave

?
On Jan 2, 2006, at 12:21 PM, breezyk1d wrote:

As embarrassing as this is to admit - here goes:? I had the best observer in the world on my wing crew the day I blew my launch.? I knew that he felt I shouldn't launch in those conditions (HE wasn't even launching - CLUE, MAJOR CLUE!), but I also did not want to discuss this with him because I thought that as a 3, I should be making my own decisions.? I thought if I started asking advanced pilots to discuss the conditions with me, I THOUGHT/FELT that I would not be living up to the trust that was placed in me as someone who was now expected to be able to analyze conditions herself.? This has to be the most ass-backward way of thinking imaginable! Yet it was a major component of? my thinking that day. ?

[hepcat1989]

Linda, like Bacil stated. It's your choice to fly ,or not fly.In the small time that I have flown the rock Spark, as well as Brian VH drilled in to my head to be out at the edge in stronger winds. I am SURE that your tree landing was intense, but it may remind you that bad shit can happen. TO BE EVER VIGILENT! When I first started it was presented to me that aviation is very unforgiving! This is so.............Again, glad you are allright, and your warbird is not to dinged up!
Peace, Shawn.

[Spark]

I don't think the launch/no launch decision was what screwed you up.? Those conditions were eminently launchable, though I had concerns about the winds aloft.? The problem was where you launched from.
I was on your left wire.? You picked up the glider near the rear of the rock because you wanted to feel it as we walked slowly forward.? During that walk I was giving steady verbal feedback (light up, neutral) when you yelled "clear!" around the middle of the rock.? I wonder if that verbal feedback increases pilot anxiety like a Little League infielder yelling, "Hey batter, batter!"? It just makes you want to swing.? Next time I wire, I'm not going to give the pilot feedback until we're at the edge.? And I guess I better say so up front.

Most pilots that, in fact, picked up their gliders and slowly walked toward the front.? Some launched toward the front, others closer to the middle.? I guess pilots want to "feel" their gliders.? But what are they really feeling?? What the glider feels like in the middle of the rock has nothing to do with what it feels like once it's in the airstream.? You might as well roll it forward on your wheels and pick it up only after you reach the edge.

My take, as a low-hour H3.

Dave

I agree that being forward is better at the Rock. Sometimes it may require having alot of trust in the person holding your keel wires, and may require that the keel person assist in angle of attack. Also, I have observed that having a grapevine (Gorilla) grip improves the pilot's ability in maintaining the proper angle of attack and the proper AOA will improve their ability to 'feel' the balance of the wing and select the appropriate moment to launch.

I tend to be very wary of any significant crosswind at the Rock, especially from the W. I'm not suggesting that crosswind was an issue in Linda's launch (I wasn't there). It has been an issue in some of my launches. I have backed off of launch and dissassembled my glider three times due to an unacceptable (to me) W cross.

[mcelrah]

Bacil's suggestions about using Smithsburg as a more benign location
to practice AWCL skills are good ones. Also, as he and Linda both
say, there is no substitute for actual experience at HR. So you are
inevitably at greater risk while you practice the very thing which
has the potential to bite you. (Not being complacent here, just
pointing out the obvious.) Just because we have H3 and CL and AWCL
ratings doesn't mean we no longer need advice (sometimes forcefully
delivered). Once I take over the site guide, I'll look into some way
to provide site-specific launch advice. Will need some help
researching the list and arriving at an agreed text... - Hugh

[Richard Hays]

Rolling out to the edge on the wheels is a technique I use. Absolutely takes
the stress off the pilot and crew. Gets everyone comfortable with their
positioning prior to picking up the wing. At High Rock, picking up the wing
prematurely does not have any benefits due to the funky airflow over the
launch pad area. You're only going to subject the left wing to the little
rotor that sets up on that side. Only by going to the very edge ( 2 steps )
assures that the wing is in the smooth flow of air at the face of the cliff.

This however; creates some stress on the wire crew, since they are so close
to the edge. This can negatively effect their "willingness" to square up
under the wing and properly give assistance and feedback on the wire. The
use of the wing wire crew being tied into the launch is important and should
not be overlooked-especially in gusty conditions.

In closing; never under-estimate "wind temperment". Its' not so much min.
and max. velocity so much as it is how quickly it changes to min and max.
velocity. Smooth, steady cycles are key to low time cliff launch pilots.
Keeping it in the range of 10-15 mph is good policy. Beware of conditions
that have the tendancy to "revv-up" quickly and die off quickly, then revv
up again. Leave that stuff to the local sky gods.

Richard


>From: David Bodner <d.bodner@verizon.net>
>Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Re: H3 Syndrome thoughts from a recent sufferer
>Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 15:55:14 -0500
>
>I don't think the launch/no launch decision was what screwed you up. Those
>conditions were eminently launchable, though I had concerns about the winds
>aloft. The problem was where you launched from.
>I was on your left wire. You picked up the glider near the rear of the
>rock because you wanted to feel it as we walked slowly forward. During
>that walk I was giving steady verbal feedback (light up, neutral) when you
>yelled "clear!" around the middle of the rock. I wonder if that verbal
>feedback increases pilot anxiety like a Little League infielder yelling,
>"Hey batter, batter!" It just makes you want to swing. Next time I wire,
>I'm not going to give the pilot feedback until we're at the edge. And I
>guess I better say so up front.
>
>Most pilots that, in fact, picked up their gliders and slowly walked toward
>the front. Some launched toward the front, others closer to the middle. I
>guess pilots want to "feel" their gliders. But what are they really
>feeling? What the glider feels like in the middle of the rock has nothing
>to do with what it feels like once it's in the airstream. You might as
>well roll it forward on your wheels and pick it up only after you reach the
>edge.
>
>My take, as a low-hour H3.
>
>Dave
>
>
>On Jan 2, 2006, at 12:21 PM, breezyk1d wrote:
>
>Quote:
>
>As embarrassing as this is to admit - here goes: I had the best observer
>in the world on my wing crew the day I blew my launch. I knew that he felt
>I shouldn't launch in those conditions (HE wasn't even launching - CLUE,
>MAJOR CLUE!), but I also did not want to discuss this with him because I
>thought that as a 3, I should be making my own decisions. I thought if I
>started asking advanced pilots to discuss the conditions with me, I
>THOUGHT/FELT that I would not be living up to the trust that was placed in
>me as someone who was now expected to be able to analyze conditions
>herself. This has to be the most ass-backward way of thinking imaginable!
>Yet it was a major component of my thinking that day. (end of quote)
>