Sunday in the Park With Hang Glider

[Scott]

Since it was so blown-out today (and I couldn't get to Woodstock due to dinner plans) I took my glider over to Morgan Grove Park in Shepherdstown to get some ground handling and footlaunch practice. Holly came along to videotape some of my runs and do a few herself with the glider.

Winds were gusting up in the teens, so it was great ground handling practice---got to practice jumping through the control frame to grab the nose wires, then moving back again. It was also great practice just holding the glider up in strong, switchy winds and "flying" the glider, letting it weathervane as the direction changed and keeping the wings level.

At one point I tried to be a hot dog and fly the glider (while facing it) from the nose wires during a strong gust. Next thing I know, up comes a wing, and upside-down goes the glider. DOH! Holly ran to assist and we flipped it upright (with help from the wind) with no harm but a dirty nose cone---and me feeling like an idiot.

Did many launch runs during lulls, concentrating on smooth, fast acceleration without popping the nose. I noticed and corrected one hand position issue that was allowing my nose to come up a bit (maybe some other folks might benefit from this):

I noticed when I transitioned from grapevine to bottle grip, my hands sometimes ended up 6" higher on the down tubes. This naturally tends to happen when you rotate from "thumbs out" to "thumbs in." When I focused on rotating my hands while keeping them low on the downtubes (e.g. in the same place), it really helped keep my nose down during the run.

Who says you need a training hill to practice? I plan to do this more---it was beneficial!

Scott

[brianvh]

Oh geez, just forget the name of the guy who does fly america and does the launching and landing clinics...you know who I'm talking about.

He advocates using bottle grip down low at waist level (Chris, Matthew, just let it be). No need to rotate, plenty of control. I've been using this technique for years and swear by it (I'm telling you guys...can it!). Sometimes difficult holding a double surface with attack tubes steady in the wind unless you use grapevine, though.

Definitely give the low bottle grip a try on the training hill, you might be a convert.

[brianvh]

Oh, Greg DeWolf, of course.

[CraginS]

Brian,
I agree with you about the value of using Greg DeWolf's bottle grip technique. Ever since his clinic I do the same. However, for those who have not had his instruction, here is an important part of the process:
When standing on launch, hold the downtubes using the bottle grip, with arms low, elbows at about a 90 degree angle, and, most importantly, WITH A LOOSE GRIP ON THE DOWNTUBES.
The idea is to have full pitch and roll yaw control over the glider, but allow the rising wing to pull the DTs up through your curled hands. You want your hands as low as possible through the entire launch run sequence, to give you maximum pitch control leverage. If you have a tight grip on the DTs, as they rise up with the wing, you will end up with your hands at shoulder height, and have almost no pitch control leverage.
Therefore, hold your arms down. hands low, and grip loose, so the tubes slide up as the wing rises with air under it. Keep running so the glider lifts you off the ground, and you keep maximum pitch control the entire time. There is a significant side benefit in this process - you will be less likely to throw yourself into the glider before it has enough lift to support both itself and you. You will be focused on letting the glider lift you up.
Once fully airborne with full control, THEN tranistion ot the base tube, using a one-two count, one hand and then the other. Early on, I used to say ONE , TWO out loud as I did the transition, to really lock in the one at a time part. Now I only think the count, but I still think it and coordinate that transition using the count.

cragin



[quote="brianvh"]Oh geez, just forget the name of the guy who does fly america and does the launching and landing clinics...you know who I'm talking about.

He advocates using bottle grip down low at waist level (Chris, Matthew, just let it be). No need to rotate, plenty of control. I've been using this technique for years and swear by it (I'm telling you guys...can it!). Sometimes difficult holding a double surface with attack tubes steady in the wind unless you use grapevine, though.

Definitely give the low bottle grip a try on the training hill, you might be a convert.[/quote]

[Scott]

Brian & Cragin...

Good stuff, but I'm confused about one point:

When standing on launch, hold the downtubes using the bottle grip, with arms low, elbows at about a 90 degree angle, and, most importantly, WITH A LOOSE GRIP ON THE DOWNTUBES.

How are you actually holding the glider up at this point? Is the apex of the control frame sitting on your neck? Because if your hands are loose (before you start your run), how can you be holding the glider up? (Not arguing, just seeking clarification.)

One technique I sort of figured out on my own and so far has worked well is that right from the start, before the run, I lift the glider up higher and hold it high enough so I feel light pressure on my leg loops. This serves as a final hook-in check, and results in a lower grip on the downtubes (better pitch control), and eliminates the possibility of "falling" into the harness, because you have nowhere to fall---once the glider starts flying, the leg loops are already tight and you go up with it.

There might be a downside to this technique, but I haven't found it yet.

Scott

[Scott]

One more thought...I've noticed a wide variety in the timing of the transition in pilots who go from grapevine to bottle grip. Some folks (including me) only use grapevine while standing with the glider before the run, then transition to bottle grip on the first step of the run.

Other pilots will start running and take several steps with the grapevine, and then transition...and still others will stay bottle grip 'til they're in the air.

Any idea which is "correct?" Or is a case of "whatever works?"

Scott

[CraginS]

Scott,
As the professor said, I'm glad you asked that question!

No, using this technique, you are not and never will be holding the glider up. Only two forces should support your glider... either your shoulders, or the wind itslef. The glider starts out resting on your shoulders/ upper arms. Then as you run, you allow the AIR to lift the glider up off of your shoulders until that air is providing enough lift to support first the weight of the glider alone, and then the combined weight of glider and pilot. In Greg's clinic we practiced finding the sweet spot in the muscle crevice along the upper biceps for the tubes to rest.
The whole purpose of this launch technique is to ensure that the pilot gets the glider really flying, with maximum pitch and roll control at all times.
Your self-discovered glider-hoisting method is a recipe for disaster, because you will not know when the air is lifting the glider. You are much more likely to fall into the harness at the point that you think the glider OUGHT to be flying, rather than when it really is. This mistake has cost a lot of busted aluminum and bruised knees and egos over the years at many sites, including our own Bill's Hill and Woodstock. Just don't do it!

Also, you say your glider hoisting techinque provides you a final hook-in check. WRONG. Once you start your run you must be committed to the run. It is essential that you perform the hook-in check BEFORE starting that run. By telling yoruself you will cover the hook in as part of your run, you wll establish a practice that lets you neglect that essential hook in check.

Now... another comment here at a higher level of abstraction. Scott's self-discovery of glider-hoisting launch runs is a fine example of the dangers of pilots figuring out on their own how to fly. It sure seemed reasonable and right the way Scott experienced it. He had no reason to think otherwise. However, the instructor community, and most intermediate and advance pilots should have the experience to recognize the flaws, as I described above. SO..

More Advice - if any pilot comes up with a new or modified technique, especially for launching or landing, on his or her own, cross-talk and check on that new method within the community before adopting it. If at all possible, talk to an Instructor about the technique. For H2's DEFINITELY call the Instructor who awarded your H2 and go over it with your instructor, or at least with an Instructor. H3's and H4's should try to do the same, but at the least, discuss it with several of the high experience pilots that you recognize as knowledgeable. You know, there may be some specific reason your instructor did NOT teach you that method you figured out on your own.

Final Preachment - aimed at H2's and Observers:
Scott's mention of the hook-in check prompted this one.
Here is Requirement #5 of demonstrated skils for H3:
"5. With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch."
This means hook in check on every flight you make, not just the flights being used for other events such as tirns or spots.
H2's - if you are not doing this , I don't care how good your spots are, you are not ready for award of H3.
Observers - If we are not ensuring this is met, we are not doing our jobs.

Thanks for the post, Scott. It is a valuable part of this thread.

Cragin





[quote="Scott"]Brian & Cragin...

Good stuff, but I'm confused about one point:
[quote]When standing on launch, hold the downtubes using the bottle grip, with arms low, elbows at about a 90 degree angle, and, most importantly, WITH A LOOSE GRIP ON THE DOWNTUBES.[/quote]
How are you actually holding the glider up at this point? Is the apex of the control frame sitting on your neck? :) Because if your hands are loose (before you start your run), how can you be holding the glider up? (Not arguing, just seeking clarification.)

One technique I sort of figured out on my own and so far has worked well is that right from the start, before the run, I lift the glider up higher and hold it high enough so I feel light pressure on my leg loops. This serves as a final hook-in check, and results in a lower grip on the downtubes (better pitch control), and eliminates the possibility of "falling" into the harness, because you have nowhere to fall---once the glider starts flying, the leg loops are already tight and you go up with it.

There might be a downside to this technique, but I haven't found it yet.

Scott[/quote]

[Matthew]

Holy Crap! We're back to the debate of bottle grip vs. grapevine. The rule of thumb is that you should use the one you've been taught. Both work. Even though I feel that the bottle grip is for wussies :)

As to the DTs, they should sit in the notch on your arms between your triceps and shoulders.... not on your shoulders and not on your neck. Here's a trick. Stand up straight when you are starting your launch. If you start to hunch, the glider will creep onto your shoulders and then onto your neck. This is very bad. And whenever people get tired or nervous at launch, they start to hunch. Standing up straight and tall with your shoulders down and back, and your chest forward, gives you the most control of the glider and makes you feel more confident and less nervous.

Matthew
PS Did the Sunday WS crew fly?????

[Spark]

I have never spoken up in any previous grip-debates - now I will.

I use a modified form of the grapevine I call the 'gorilla grip'. It involves using a grapevine grip + I wear football receiver gloves to provide a superior grip.

I never had an instructor. No one told me how to launch. The grapevine grip was the only way I could ever control a glider in strong winds - and winds were usually 15+. I transition to a bottle grip (at some point - not sure when), but I never start with one. This has worked for me for 29 years.

I have seen many wine-glass-grippers and bottle-grippers have a difficult time controlling their gliders in windy situations.

I know that I can't control pitch as well without the leverage provided by the 'grapevine'-style approach. I believe it is because my arms are stronger in this configuration. I suspect others may find this to be true - in significant wind.

Come out to Smithsburg (when it opens) - try ground handling and launching in strong winds using both techniques - see which one works best for you.

[CraginS]

Sparky,
To make sure all understand - the bottle grip method Brian brought up and I have been describing applies only to the lanch run itself. During ground handling, especially in strong winds, the grapevine is clearly superior. During Greg's clinic we used the grapevine for controlling the glider in ground handling. We used the bottle grip for the launch run.
This also relates to Scott's question about when pilots transition from grapevine to bottle. Some of the pilots that Scott has seen transition on their first step may be using Greg's method. They use grapevine to get in place on launch, and control the glider with max efficiency while just standing there. They then move to bottle as they being the run, in order to get the advantages of the sliding grip bottle grip as I described earlier.
Also, Matthew's description of where to rest the glider on the upper arm is perfect, and amuch better description than mine.

Cragin

[quote="Spark"]I have never spoken up in any previous grip-debates - now I will.

I use a modified form of the grapevine I call the 'gorilla grip'. It involves using a grapevine grip + I wear football receiver gloves to provide a superior grip. :wink:

I never had an instructor. No one told me how to launch. The grapevine grip was the only way I could ever control a glider in strong winds - and winds were usually 15+. I transition to a bottle grip (at some point - not sure when), but I never start with one. This has worked for me for 29 years.

I have seen many wine-glass-grippers and bottle-grippers have a difficult time controlling their gliders in windy situations.

I know that I can't control pitch as well without the leverage provided by the 'grapevine'-style approach. I believe it is because my arms are stronger in this configuration. I suspect others may find this to be true - in significant wind.

Come out to Smithsburg (when it opens) - try ground handling and launching in strong winds using both techniques - see which one works best for you.[/quote]

[Scott]

I love discussions like these---with everyone being friendly and polite!

Thanks for the clarification Cragin. I should clarify a couple points too...

Your self-discovered glider-hoisting method is a recipe for disaster, because you will not know when the air is lifting the glider. You are much more likely to fall into the harness at the point that you think the glider OUGHT to be flying, rather than when it really is.

This makes complete sense...except I never do this. Why? Because I always run into the air. I don't stop running 'til my feet are treading air. If you always do this, there is no way you'll ever think you're flying before you really are.

Also, you say your glider hoisting techinque provides you a final hook-in check. WRONG. Once you start your run you must be committed to the run. It is essential that you perform the hook-in check BEFORE starting that run.

Of course! The key point in what I said is a final hook-in check. I will always have done a hook-in check (several, in fact) prior to starting the run. I'm always 110% committed to the run.

Now... another comment here at a higher level of abstraction. Scott's self-discovery of glider-hoisting launch runs is a fine example of the dangers of pilots figuring out on their own how to fly.

Again, good points...and let nobody think I'm just figuring it out on my own!

What's interesting here (and why there's always room for discussion) is that most instructors (in my experience anyway) won't always get into great detail on every nuance of technique. That's partly because---as students---we're overwhelmed as it is with just getting the gross motor skills down, much less the fine ones. It's inevitable that as we all progress as pilots, we'll do some experimenting beyond what we were taught (and hopefully within the bounds of safety).

So all this conversation is good! I appreciate it!

Scott

[CraginS]

Scott,
Let's go back and examine another aspect of the glider-hoisitng method of launch, that I should have addressed earlier.
If you have a grip on the downtubes, allowing you to lift the glider into the air before the wind lifts it, your hands will of necessity stay at the same place on the tubes. Your hands will move up, relative to your waist and shoulders. Your elbows will change from a 90 degree bend to an acute angle bend. The higher the tubes move, the less leverage you will have in pitch control, because your hands will be moving up near your shoulders, or even up next to your hears.
If, however, you concentrate on keeping your hands low, and your elbows bent close to 90 degrees, as the wind lift the glider up, DTs sliding through your cupped loose grip, then you will maintain maximum pitch control leverage the entire run. Your arms will have max play, and your hands will be lower on the DTs than when you started the run.
For examples and analysis, go look at Woodstock, Bill's and Pulpit launches captured by ralph at
http://photos.sickinger.net/

cragin


[quote="Scott"]I [i][b]love [/b][/i]discussions like these---with everyone being friendly and polite! :D

Thanks for the clarification Cragin. I should clarify a couple points too...
[quote]Your self-discovered glider-hoisting method is a recipe for disaster, because you will not know when the air is lifting the glider. You are much more likely to fall into the harness at the point that you think the glider OUGHT to be flying, rather than when it really is.[/quote]
This makes complete sense...except I never do this. :) Why? Because I always run into the air. I don't stop running 'til my feet are treading air. If you always do this, there is no way you'll ever think you're flying before you really are.
[quote]Also, you say your glider hoisting techinque provides you a final hook-in check. WRONG. Once you start your run you must be committed to the run. It is essential that you perform the hook-in check BEFORE starting that run.[/quote]
Of course! :) The key point in what I said is a [i][b]final [/b][/i]hook-in check. I will [i]always [/i]have done a hook-in check (several, in fact) prior to starting the run. I'm always 110% committed to the run.
[quote]Now... another comment here at a higher level of abstraction. Scott's self-discovery of glider-hoisting launch runs is a fine example of the dangers of pilots figuring out on their own how to fly.[/quote]
Again, good points...and let nobody think I'm just figuring it out on my own!

What's interesting here (and why there's always room for discussion) is that most instructors (in my experience anyway) won't always get into great detail on every nuance of technique. That's partly because---as students---we're overwhelmed as it is with just getting the gross motor skills down, much less the fine ones. It's inevitable that as we all progress as pilots, we'll do some experimenting beyond what we were taught (and hopefully within the bounds of safety).

So all this conversation is good! I appreciate it!

Scott[/quote]

[brianvh]

I don't know about the elbows at 90 degrees - that sort of conflicts with the hands as low as possible. But I wasn't at deWolf's clinic, just recreated it from what I heard second hand and liked it. It actually lets you feel the glider. If you can't launch using the wine glass grip, I think it's too turbulent to launch, at that moment (with a single surface glider). Ground handling is definitely better with the grapevine, but only scaredy cats like Matthew use the grapevine all the way through the launch sequence .

As for lifting the glider to tension the hang strap before you launch, this actually is a suggested way to do a hook-in check, so long as you let the glider come back down to the shoulders before running. The phrase I remember is "the hang strap tightens to unlock the legs"....so you train yourself not to start your run until you've unlocked your legs by performing this penultimate hook in check. It was written up years ago in HG magazine. I think Steve Kingsly uses this method.

[Spark]

...
If you can't launch using the wine glass grip, I think it's too turbulent to launch, at that moment (with a single surface glider).
...
Ground handling is definitely better with the grapevine, but only scaredy cats like Matthew use the grapevine all the way through the launch sequence . ...

Add me to your list of 'scaredy cats'.

I'd like to hear the argument against the grapevine approach, other than the 'scaredy cat' argument. I must have missed it, or it wasn't convincing, because I can't think of a downside. There is no doubt in my mind that when I put my shoulders and biceps into the start of a launch run, I accelerate faster and I'm convinced that the additional acceleration can make a difference.

I've spent the past hour staring at dozens of launch sequences on Ralph's website and I don't see where the bottle-grippers are moving their hands any lower than the grape-viners.

... Whatever floats yer boat.

[Matthew]

Ugh! It's like deja vu all over again. With the grapevine that is used by me and many others, your hands rotate around to the bottlegrip as the glider lifts off of your shoulders.

Matthew

[rs54263]

Brian,
Could you explain your launch technique on a frame-by-frame basis,
using the following sequence of photos:

http://photos.sickinger.net/20050918_pu ... index.html

I'm having trouble visualizing how this is supposed to work...

Thanks,
~Ralph


================================================================
from: Spark (10/17/2005 18:38)
================================================================


brianvh wrote:

...
If you can't launch using the wine glass grip, I think it's too
turbulent to launch, at that moment (with a single surface glider).
...
Ground handling is definitely better with the grapevine, but only
scaredy cats like Matthew use the grapevine all the way through the
launch sequence . ...
(end of quote)


Add me to your list of 'scaredy cats'.

I'd like to hear the argument against the grapevine approach, other
than the 'scaredy cat' argument. I must have missed it, or it wasn't
convincing, because I can't think of a downside. There is no doubt in
my mind that when I put my shoulders and biceps into the start of a
launch run, I accelerate faster and I'm convinced that the additional
acceleration can make a difference.

I've spent the past hour staring at dozens of launch sequences on
Ralph's website and I don't see where the bottle-grippers are moving
their hands any lower than the grape-viners.

... Whatever floats yer boat.'Spark
301-462-8320
http://community.webshots.com/user/sparkozoid

[heaviek]

I haven't read fully through this thread but thought I would pipe up my big
fat mouth.

I don't think I have hardly ever seen the bottle grip used well in
challenging conditions. In fact, most of the launches I have witnessed with
the bottle grip were very bad. The bottle grip is almost synonymous with an
impending bad launch. (just what I regularly witness).

On the run the pilot is rarely through the control frame and powering the
launch. If you want to see a phenomenal launch then cruise through ralph's
pictures and check out hank's. Always strong, always authoritative, with
excellent control. If you want to see a bad launch, cruise through those
same picture sets and take note of the dozens of pilots, many low hours or
SS wings, with the control frame in thermal position as the pilot takes
their last steps. Its painful to even look at because I don't want to have
the negative visuals in my head.

In regards to loading the hang strap before beginning the launch run. That
is actually a technique utilized by at least a dozen phenomenally talented
west coast pilots I know. They use it to roll into the perfect angle of
attack on a steep, short, light wind launch. No inaccuracy of AOA as the
hang strap loads up and control frame moves up.

Kev C

[XCanytime]

???? Check out images 14219 to 14226 in Ralph's Pulpit Fly-In collection to see a perfect launch sequence.? The pilot starts out w/ the grapevine grip to stabilize the glider in image 14219.? Image 14220 the run starts w/ the bottle grip, and 5 loops of grip tape show up below the hands.? The loose grip allows the DTs to slide up a grip tape notch as the pilot leans into the launch run in image 14221, indicating the glider already lifting.? Image 14222 shows a strong, controlled lean as the pilot powers down the ramp.? Images 14223 and 14224 show the glider lifting the pilot into the air, the pilot's legs still pumping.? Image 14225 shows the left hand going down to the basetube, the next image the right hand going down, and the AOA being maintained.? Must be some low hour pilot since he's got training wheels on the basetube.
???? As far as lifting the glider to tighten up the hang straps, a pilot who's no longer flying in the area used this technique at High Rock for many years to provide more control in lighter conditions there.? If you ain't hanging, you ain't controlling.? You step off the Rock w/ the strap limp, flip a coin as to which way the glider goes:? left, right, or straight?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Bacil

????
????

[brianvh]

>> Quoting Ralph:
Could you explain your launch technique on a frame-by-frame basis,
using the following sequence of photos:

http://photos.sickinger.net/20050918_pu ... index.html

I'm having trouble visualizing how this is supposed to work...
>>

Gotta admit I don't see my hands sliding down, though that's the image I always have in my mind as I'm running. But I think the body is leaning through the frame more than you'd get with a grapevine run. Anyway, in my limited year's experience with double surface gliders I found I often had to run using the grapevine just for control, though I disliked the rigidity of it. SS gliders work better for me with a wineglass grip.

And Geez, can't anyone recognize that my scaredy cat comment is simply a response to Matthew's wussy comment?

[rs54263]

>> But I think the body is leaning through the frame more than you'd
get with a grapevine run.

I dunno; you really think so? Check out:

http://sickinger.net/download/ralph_vs_brian.jpg

<g>

~Ralph

[Matthew]

Images 14219 to 14226. Jeesh! Who is that doofus flying in shorts and wearing sneakers??? :) Put on some damned pants and protect your legs. And sneakers, what kind of ankle support do you get with that? Do we really have to rehash all the ankle injuries caused by crappy footwear. I'm really surprised that this pilot isn't more concerned with safety. :)

Matthew
PS Really, buy some lightweight hikers or high-top trail running shoes that offer ankle support. And don't be cheap. Spend the extra ten bucks for waterproof versions.
PPS Lightweight zip to calf nylon running pants only cost ten bucks and can be pulled on just prior to getting in your harness.

[Richard Hays]

Grips: Historically I personally had issues with ( students ) and the
grapevine position. Many would not uniformly move their thumbs to the inside
at the same time, or the right time, causing them to push out with the one
bottle grip hand ( which might have transitioned first ) before the
following transition hand...causing a wing to drop, due to un-even push out
forces during the launch run.

In my training program, I opted for teaching the bottle grip. Why?
Basically....one less thing for the student to remember to do. Hands were in
the position they needed to be for all phases of the flight. Saw
improvements immediately. Been teaching that way ever since. HOWEVER; once
the pilot gets his/her H-1 designation, I encourage them to experiment
with...or possibley change to the grapevine to see if they like it better.
If they do; fine. If not; fine. Personal choice based on conditions, needs,
glider, etc.

The negatives to a bottle grip in training however, can be a hesitant
student running "behind" the control frame. The bottle grip sets up this
negative scenario "if" the student hesitates in the run. The grapevine grip
keeps the pilot more ahead of the control frame...so long as they dont'
prematurely rotate the grip. But a properly exicuted bottle grip launch can
be equally effective so long as there is adequate forward lean in the run
technique.

Over the years, I've personally used the bottle grip, the grapevine AND the
REVERSE grapevine grip for launching myself. Different gliders and different
conditions can often dictate which style works best. In years past ( the
eighties specifically ) gliders' were god-aweful tail heavy and the bottle
grip could not be easily employed. The reverse grapevine was somewhat
popular, as it had the benefits of the grapevine but eliminated the dangers
of upper arm fractures in the event of a pound in at launch while holding
the glider in the grapevine or bottle grip. The reverse grapevine grip
allowed the pilot to swing free of the C.B.

Bottom line; if you're in control, you're in control, regardless of hand
position. Larry Tudor used the reverse grapevine grip for years...much to
the razzing of his peers. Yet...he was one of the greatest pilots of his era
and of all time.

Pick a method ( or two ) perfect it; be in control-be safe and have fun.

Rich Hays


>From: "Spark" <BagPipeFlyer@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Sunday in the Park With Hang Glider
>Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:38:41 -0400
>
>brianvh wrote:
>
>...
>If you can't launch using the wine glass grip, I think it's too turbulent
>to launch, at that moment (with a single surface glider).
>...
>Ground handling is definitely better with the grapevine, but only scaredy
>cats like Matthew use the grapevine all the way through the launch sequence
>;). ...
>(end of quote)
>
>
>Add me to your list of 'scaredy cats'.
>
>I'd like to hear the argument against the grapevine approach, other than
>the 'scaredy cat' argument. I must have missed it, or it wasn't
>convincing, because I can't think of a downside. There is no doubt in my
>mind that when I put my shoulders and biceps into the start of a launch
>run, I accelerate faster and I'm convinced that the additional acceleration
>can make a difference.
>
>I've spent the past hour staring at dozens of launch sequences on Ralph's
>website and I don't see where the bottle-grippers are moving their hands
>any lower than the grape-viners.
>
>... Whatever floats yer boat.'Spark
>301-462-8320
>http://community.webshots.com/user/sparkozoid

[heaviek]

Cool summary Rich! I am not a foot launch instructor so all of my opinions
are based solely on watching other pilots and my own (limited) experience.
I love to hear your opinion since you have been a part of an uncountable
number of FL students. What do you think of the tight hang strap method for
light wind conditions?

Kev C

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hays [mailto:mshgflyer@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:22 AM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: RE: Sunday in the Park With Hang Glider


Grips: Historically I personally had issues with ( students ) and the
grapevine position. Many would not uniformly move their thumbs to the inside

at the same time, or the right time, causing them to push out with the one
bottle grip hand ( which might have transitioned first ) before the
following transition hand...causing a wing to drop, due to un-even push out
forces during the launch run.

In my training program, I opted for teaching the bottle grip. Why?
Basically....one less thing for the student to remember to do. Hands were in

the position they needed to be for all phases of the flight. Saw
improvements immediately. Been teaching that way ever since. HOWEVER; once
the pilot gets his/her H-1 designation, I encourage them to experiment
with...or possibley change to the grapevine to see if they like it better.
If they do; fine. If not; fine. Personal choice based on conditions, needs,
glider, etc.

The negatives to a bottle grip in training however, can be a hesitant
student running "behind" the control frame. The bottle grip sets up this
negative scenario "if" the student hesitates in the run. The grapevine grip
keeps the pilot more ahead of the control frame...so long as they dont'
prematurely rotate the grip. But a properly exicuted bottle grip launch can
be equally effective so long as there is adequate forward lean in the run
technique.

Over the years, I've personally used the bottle grip, the grapevine AND the
REVERSE grapevine grip for launching myself. Different gliders and different

conditions can often dictate which style works best. In years past ( the
eighties specifically ) gliders' were god-aweful tail heavy and the bottle
grip could not be easily employed. The reverse grapevine was somewhat
popular, as it had the benefits of the grapevine but eliminated the dangers
of upper arm fractures in the event of a pound in at launch while holding
the glider in the grapevine or bottle grip. The reverse grapevine grip
allowed the pilot to swing free of the C.B.

Bottom line; if you're in control, you're in control, regardless of hand
position. Larry Tudor used the reverse grapevine grip for years...much to
the razzing of his peers. Yet...he was one of the greatest pilots of his era

and of all time.

Pick a method ( or two ) perfect it; be in control-be safe and have fun.

Rich Hays


>From: "Spark" <BagPipeFlyer@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Sunday in the Park With Hang Glider
>Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:38:41 -0400
>
>brianvh wrote:
>
>...
>If you can't launch using the wine glass grip, I think it's too turbulent
>to launch, at that moment (with a single surface glider).
>...
>Ground handling is definitely better with the grapevine, but only scaredy
>cats like Matthew use the grapevine all the way through the launch sequence

>;). ...
>(end of quote)
>
>
>Add me to your list of 'scaredy cats'.
>
>I'd like to hear the argument against the grapevine approach, other than
>the 'scaredy cat' argument. I must have missed it, or it wasn't
>convincing, because I can't think of a downside. There is no doubt in my
>mind that when I put my shoulders and biceps into the start of a launch
>run, I accelerate faster and I'm convinced that the additional acceleration

>can make a difference.
>
>I've spent the past hour staring at dozens of launch sequences on Ralph's
>website and I don't see where the bottle-grippers are moving their hands
>any lower than the grape-viners.
>
>... Whatever floats yer boat.'Spark
>301-462-8320
>http://community.webshots.com/user/sparkozoid

[Scott]

Ditto what Kevin said---I'd like to hear more from Rich and John M. too! For example, what is the reverse grapevine grip? (Don't think I know that one...)

And---as Kevin said---what about the tight hang strap technique in any conditions? (As opposed to just light wind conditions.)

Since he doesn't hang out here, I can paraphrase what Steve Wendt said to me recently about launch technique. Many pilots (including me) try to lean forward---aggressively---with our heads through the control frame, driving the glider forward.

Steve told me that when you lean forward like that, it requires you to bring your hands even farther back to keep the nose down. In other words, if you start your run standing up straight, as your upper body leans over and through the control frame, the natural tendency is to keep your hands in the same place they were when you were standing up. This results in a "pushing out" of the control frame, which raises the nose.

Of course not everyone does this, but I think Steve's point (if I understood him correctly) is that the most important thing to be aware of is keeping your hands back---which keeps the nose down. So the "best" technique might be whatever makes it easiest/most comfortable to keep your hands back (and the nose down) as you run.

Scott

[Richard Hays]

Hmmmmm. Well......If you mean holding the glider up high off the shoulders
to achieve tension on the straps prior to running.....no, I don't like that
technique if its' being used for light wind, running take offs. Too much
potential for the nose to pop and or a premature lift off without sufficient
forward momentum

A better way to achieve taking some slack out of the mains and keeping the
gliders' control bar down low to the shoulders would be to snug up your leg
straps. This prevents excessive harness travel upwards, and affords better
pitch control on launch ( and flare authority on landing ).

That said....If a well coordinated balance of foward lean and positive pitch
"pressure" is employed with a swift run, then the pilot is in total control
of when they can let the C.B. slide upwards thru their hands, or in reverse
if they need to load the control frame with downward force thru the arms
if the wing is trying to lift one off before adequate forward running speed
is achieved. Its' all a game of proper speed and pitch control.

But prior to this and that, I'm in the camp of the glider being firmly
placed/balanced on the location that Matthew described ( upper arm
groove-shoulder area ). Let the shoulders act like a pivot and support the
weight of the wing. Crutial for zero wind-light wind running launches. The
coordination of wing and pilot is best achieved ( in my opinion ) this way.
Pitch and roll corrections are more apt to be effective. Pilot begins
run.....begins to lean into it; glider begins to load positively and pilot
chooses how much they want to let up and when, and how much forward push out
to utilize based on wind conditions. Straps smoothly engage....and avaition
is commited. LOL.

Different deal though in AWCL type scenarios.



>From: "Kevin" <heaviek@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: RE: Sunday in the Park With Hang Glider
>Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:57:34 -0400
>
>Cool summary Rich! I am not a foot launch instructor so all of my opinions
>are based solely on watching other pilots and my own (limited) experience.
>I love to hear your opinion since you have been a part of an uncountable
>number of FL students. What do you think of the tight hang strap method
>for
>light wind conditions?
>
>Kev C
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Hays [mailto:mshgflyer@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:22 AM
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: RE: Sunday in the Park With Hang Glider
>
>
>Grips: Historically I personally had issues with ( students ) and the
>grapevine position. Many would not uniformly move their thumbs to the
>inside
>
>at the same time, or the right time, causing them to push out with the one
>bottle grip hand ( which might have transitioned first ) before the
>following transition hand...causing a wing to drop, due to un-even push out
>forces during the launch run.
>
>In my training program, I opted for teaching the bottle grip. Why?
>Basically....one less thing for the student to remember to do. Hands were
>in
>
>the position they needed to be for all phases of the flight. Saw
>improvements immediately. Been teaching that way ever since. HOWEVER; once
>the pilot gets his/her H-1 designation, I encourage them to experiment
>with...or possibley change to the grapevine to see if they like it better.
>If they do; fine. If not; fine. Personal choice based on conditions, needs,
>glider, etc.
>
>The negatives to a bottle grip in training however, can be a hesitant
>student running "behind" the control frame. The bottle grip sets up this
>negative scenario "if" the student hesitates in the run. The grapevine grip
>keeps the pilot more ahead of the control frame...so long as they dont'
>prematurely rotate the grip. But a properly exicuted bottle grip launch can
>be equally effective so long as there is adequate forward lean in the run
>technique.
>
>Over the years, I've personally used the bottle grip, the grapevine AND the
>REVERSE grapevine grip for launching myself. Different gliders and
>different
>
>conditions can often dictate which style works best. In years past ( the
>eighties specifically ) gliders' were god-aweful tail heavy and the bottle
>grip could not be easily employed. The reverse grapevine was somewhat
>popular, as it had the benefits of the grapevine but eliminated the dangers
>of upper arm fractures in the event of a pound in at launch while holding
>the glider in the grapevine or bottle grip. The reverse grapevine grip
>allowed the pilot to swing free of the C.B.
>
>Bottom line; if you're in control, you're in control, regardless of hand
>position. Larry Tudor used the reverse grapevine grip for years...much to
>the razzing of his peers. Yet...he was one of the greatest pilots of his
>era
>
>and of all time.
>
>Pick a method ( or two ) perfect it; be in control-be safe and have fun.
>
>Rich Hays
>
>
> >From: "Spark" <BagPipeFlyer@hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> >To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> >Subject: Sunday in the Park With Hang Glider
> >Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:38:41 -0400
> >
> >brianvh wrote:
> >
> >...
> >If you can't launch using the wine glass grip, I think it's too turbulent
> >to launch, at that moment (with a single surface glider).
> >...
> >Ground handling is definitely better with the grapevine, but only scaredy
> >cats like Matthew use the grapevine all the way through the launch
>sequence
>
> >;). ...
> >(end of quote)
> >
> >
> >Add me to your list of 'scaredy cats'.
> >
> >I'd like to hear the argument against the grapevine approach, other than
> >the 'scaredy cat' argument. I must have missed it, or it wasn't
> >convincing, because I can't think of a downside. There is no doubt in my
> >mind that when I put my shoulders and biceps into the start of a launch
> >run, I accelerate faster and I'm convinced that the additional
>acceleration
>
> >can make a difference.
> >
> >I've spent the past hour staring at dozens of launch sequences on Ralph's
> >website and I don't see where the bottle-grippers are moving their hands
> >any lower than the grape-viners.
> >
> >... Whatever floats yer boat.'Spark
> >301-462-8320
> >http://community.webshots.com/user/sparkozoid
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>