Daniel's Saturday 26 February

[deveil]

Thank you all for your assistance which saved me probably an hour walk around the mountain to the LZ.

well, don't be so quick to thank them (you know there'll be a twist coming).
with your history and record you could have walked into the LZ, face bloodied and sail torn, said simply,"wasn't me ", without anyone so much as blinking an eye.

garyDeceptivelycomplimenting

[cthornberger]

Thanks Mark, Amy, Jon --and everyone else for the congrats! I really appreciated all the support and assistance with getting me going -- and up that 4WD only mountain -- for my first mountain flight!
John, Carlos, Hugh and Mark - Thanks for the help with wire-crew and getting me on launch! Some tight spaces up there with all the gliders.

Had a good launch. Straight out and started getting some lift. I decided to turn left down the ridge -- at this point just trying to get a feel for the glider at altitude. I noticed definite spots of lift and thinking back, I really noticed the spot where I left that nice lift band - kinda like a mini-roller coaster, that nice 0-G feeling(fun!). Checked my distance and angle from launch and turned back towards it. Since I was keeping my distance from the ridge on this flight, I never really got back in the lift band. By the time I was back toward launch I was low enough-- just a bit below launch, so I headed out toward the LZ. Came in a little low, therefore I did base leg and final only. Came in with plenty of speed. With all the excitement, I forgot to put my landing gear down (feet were out of harness though), so I just resolved for a wheel landing. Straight into the wind, mostly uneventful landing aside from a rut that stopped me a bit short. The feet will be down on the next one.

Some thoughts on the flight:

Ramp suck - a rather disconcerting feeling, even if it is light one. I was under the impression that I would not feel that, so it was a small surprise when I asked if there was someone putting pressure on my keel and there wasn't (then, I realised what it was). I mentally reset and kept going.

Over-control vs. good speed - I was correcting more than I needed. Most of the corrections I was making to stay on a more straight-line ground path were just due to adjusting to the smaller bumps in the air; not so necessary, as those will work themselves out usually. ...I was probably on the edge of the lift and sink. Also, instead of trim, I was keeping maneuvering speed up. Next time, I'll relax up a bit on the bar.

All in all, a great flight! Traveling in 3-dimensions, now that's something. Looking up, it was neat to see the paragliders flying with me (maybe next time I'll be looking down )

Looking forward to next time!

-Chris Hornberger

[cthornberger]

[uplandann]

Thanks for the video Chris! I was wondering how long a sled there really is. Usually feels much shorter than five minutes... Your launch and flight looked really good. I need to ge me one of those nifty cameras!

Ann

[hang_pilot]

Congrats on your first mountain flight, Chris!

It's not unusual to wheel in your first landing from altitude. Your peers are generally happy if you land in the right field and don't do anything too scary. From your video, it looked like you encountered a typical wind gradient as you turned on final. That's a new complexity for which your experience at the training hill doesn't prepare you and you'll be ready for it the next time.

I'm glad your persistence and enthusiasm have paid off and look forward to flying with you soon.

Blue skies,
Daniel

[Danny Brotto]

So why is there a streammer on your side flying wire?

Danny Brotto

[cthornberger]

I think I changed it at some point to keep it more in my peripheral vision. Maybe I'll put that back

[cthornberger]

Thanks, Ann!

Yes, that is one sweet wind gradient. It is certainly an adjustment to keep in mind.
I hope to see you out there soon as well, Daniel.

[markc]

Sweet! Good job Chris, and thanks for sharing the video!

MarkC

[uplandann]

Can you get ramp-suck without the ramp? I know it's probably very light, but could it have been the camera?

Ann

[markc]

"Ramp suck" isn't limited to ramp launches. I've experienced it at cliff (High Rock), ramp (Pulpit), and slot (Pulpit) launch sites. Also, I've found that some gliders are more prone to ramp suck than others.... Ask me about trying to launch PacAir K-5's from the Pulpit ramps someday.

Luckily, the static balance of more current gliders seems to have improved the picture. But that definitely doesn't mean that 'suck' is a thing of the past. With enough wind, and an upward component to it, and perhaps with some wind rotoring around behind you.... These and other factors can all lead to a forward force on the wing : It "wants" to pull you forward, often with the nose trying to pitch down.

In my experience, training hill conditions (at least those I've flown in!) rarely replicate those conditions. So, Chris, you may have simply been surprised by the feel of the wing at your first high-site launch: It's a slot launch (wind funneling up to you); the wind speed was definitely all over the place; and some of the cycles showed a vertical component on the streamers. Conditions at T-hill sites tend to be a bit more predictable/steady than what you saw at Daniel's on Saturday.

As you start flying other sites, you should definitely take the time to feel the forces on the wing : Experiment a bit with pitch and your position on launch, with the aid of your wirecrew, and see how the forces change. I can tell you for sure that the ramp-suck feeling will be even more noticeable at High Rock, on days when it's blowing in at better than 12 mph! Just you wait!

MarkC

[Danny Brotto]

Wingtips are are a lower angle of attack than the root section. In lighter winds, the tips are generating lift while the root is not. The tips are behind any center of rotation to the tips try to lift while no lift is being genrated by the center. This creates a sensation of being pulled forward (since the tips are behind the center of rotation.). If you lift the nose a bit, the tips generate less lift so there will be less sensation of "suck". Of course now the entire wing may be generating more lift so you'll have to compensate for that... and by no means should you try to launch with your AOA too high!

Danny Brotto

[brianvh]

When people were saying "first high flight at Daniel's" I was going wha..at? But from the video it looks like a guy with some comfort up high and aerotow experience (I know you did a tandem with shawn, but you look more comfortable than that). Have you been towing?

If you haven't had aerotow experience then that was a truly amazing first flight into a difficult field. You're ready for nearly anyplace in my book. Congratulations!

[cthornberger]

Yes, though it was not significant, it was certainly noticeable. The launch at Daniels also has all those trees and stuff behind launch. It felt different from the Pulpit.

Thanks, Brian -- I did a couple AT tandems and a High Rock tandem with Hugh. I really appreciate the words of confidence.

[Ward Odenwald]

If you haven't had aerotow experience then that was a truly amazing first flight into a difficult field. You're ready for nearly anyplace in my book.

With all due respect, I'd say it was a good start but just making into to that LZ with no altitude to spare is not my idea of being ready for nearly anyplace. From the video, it looked as if there was a fair amount of thermal texture/turbulence during the flight and his mid-flight turn away from the LZ cut into his altitude safety margin for making it into the field. Although its possible that I'm mislead from the video's perspective, but on many occasions when flying through air that has thermals passing through it I've under estimated the altitude required to glide from point A to point B and when point B is the LZ it really sucks!

Ward

[cthornberger]

I do agree with that. Hugh pointed out from the flight that I had stayed in the area between the ridge and the LZ for too long -- I had flown back toward launch (but not really in the ridge lift) ..kind of like no-mans land. The advice for me (and other novice pilots) - Be on ridge lift (or thermal) or on the way to LZ.
It was an error that I realised and quickly turned out to land.
I do appreciate the critique though.
Thanks, Ward

[RichH]

It was a bit tight but a good first mtn flight..congratulations!!

[brianvh]

I'm not saying it was a textbook flight for an experienced pilot, but a flight that would make me comfortable putting a new pilot into any of the fields typically flown.

Daniel's is a stretch on a single surface. If he'd been flying as fast as pilots often do on their first high flights he likely wouldn't have made it. I've only flown an older falcon there, and I don't think I've made it to that field with much more altitude to spare than he did. So yes, he could have done better but it didn't leave me clutching the desk in fear...looked okay to me. I do agree whole heartedly with the need to have a safety margin in thermally air. Especially at Daniel's. But Daniel's can sometimes require perfect decisions to not screw up, and the fact that he was merely adequate to the occasion impressed me.

Look what he did on his first flight: he was experiencing textured air, but didn't freeze onto the control frame and made his (comparatively small and far) target after a brief attempt to cruise the ridge. For a first high flight that's doing pretty good in my book.