High Rock structure in need of repair

[brianvh]

First time I've heard these details, Danny. Good stuff. It sparked an idea. Bear in mind that I have no clue what I'm talking about, but if we build a rock and mortar structure (as the county seemed be envision years ago) it should be durable, look better, and not be as slippery if the right rocks are used. Too much work and expense?

[Dan T]

If we could build a launch suitable for paragliders as well as hanggliders at or near the current location, we could probably expand the number of people using the site and visiting Emma Jane. I'm sure she'd appreciate that.

Biwingal
Dan T

[chgpa]

Danny raises a point which must be given serious consideration:

I think if someone wants to investigate this, they need to proceed with great diplomacy.

Previous legal decisions do *not* automatically shield us from liability in
the event of a substantial re-config of the site. Happy to share my views
about this one-on-one.... But in the meantime, diplomacy/tact should be
the approach.

Oh, and a practical point, we might have to come up with some stone
for a more 'natural' appearance, on the parking-lot side of the cube.
There's been a lot of stone loss there, and I doubt that the county would
be thrilled if the work consists of setting up some forms and dumping a
load of concrete into them.

If it was the Pulpit we would have plenty of material at hand. But last
I looked, the amount of stone below/in-front of the cube was pretty
minimal...

MarkC

[dbodner]

I think most of the missing small gravel has simply washed down toward the on-deck circle. We can pick up shovelsfull of it there.

I somehow envision a concrete block structure (simpler to build?) covered with a facade of natural rock (lots still in the woods) held in place with mortar. Not that I know what I'm talking about.

[brianvh]

Still in the theme of not knowing what we're talking about, I think if we purchased the rock for a facade, it might be more uniform and easier to work with. If it just lines the walls it shouldn't be so much it breaks the bank. But we'd definitely need somebody who does know what they are talking about to supervise so we get something that will last. Would we have to break up the top to pour a fresh layer of concrete to seal it?

[dbodner]

I'm probably wrong, but it seems that the cube is a hard shell of concrete and rock, while the inside is simply filled with that tiny gravel we see on the ground. Unfortunately, our bean bag chair (can't think of a better metaphor) has sprung a leak, compromising the integrity of our shell. I don't think it'll be good enough to fix the hard shell. I think we'll need to replace the beans with something a bit more rigid and load-bearing (that's why I was suggesting concrete block). So, I think it's more than fixing the top layer of concrete.

As to purchasing uniform rock for the facade, we don't want it to be be too smooth. We don't need to do the job so neatly that it looks like the facade of a house. The previous generation did a nice job of incorporating native stones into the structure, some of which are useful as steps. I see laying down slabs on the horizontal that will work as footholds for wire crew climbing the block. There are still lots of rocks in the area to serve that purpose, though we may be forced to purchase a load for whatever other reason.

[DanTuck]

some pics

[DanTuck]

more

[mcelrah]

I am posting on the club meeting string as well as this one since the meeting is so soon:

Dan, if you can help me send your pictures of the structure (or a link) to Jim Sterling, I would appreciate it. Help the handicapped...

I got a call back from Jim Sterling of Washington County parks, recreation and facilities. He shares our concern about the rapidly deteriorating structure. He may put barriers or at least police tape up to try and keep people off. He will try to get an engineer up there to look at it (but I don't seriously expect any more detailed answer before Thursday). He confirmed that the "pillars" are historical, so any proposal to bust everything down is a non-starter. HOWEVER, he is interested in considering some options for a repair/replacement structure, to include a "wooden" ramp. I reminded Jim that the current rock/concrete structure was built as it was because the previous one had been burnt down in an act of vandalism. But he countered with the idea of some less flammable man-made material such as deck boards made out of recycled plastic (slippery?). I invited him to look at the Pulpit elevated ramps for examples of structures with metal trusses underneath and decking on top. He is even interested in seeing photos of radial ramps such as at Henson's Gap in Tennessee and, now, Ellensville NY. (Could use some tech support in downloading and transmitting such pictures (to my e-mail: mcelrah@gmail.com and I will retransmit to Mr. Sterling).) I also told him the story about the rebar, so he may be willing to consider a more durable rock/concrete solution this time. I asked about what support the county could provide. Any machinery would have to be operated by county employees (e.g. a front-loader to get materials close to the structure) and that means normal working hours - so we volunteers would have to be willing to take a day off to do construction work.

See you Thursday... - Hugh

[mcelrah]

P.S. Were there ever any drawings for the current structure? - Hugh

[DanTuck]

Hugh,
Thanks for talking to the county. That is great news! I'll attach the pics to an email and send it to you.
As far as a new wood ramp goes, check out Fiberon. It's composite decking material that is non-slip, fire-resistant, and complies with California Fire Code Class B.
I just happen to work for a company that distributes and installs it and we just happen to have a truckload of extra materials that I can get a very, very good deal on.
Check out - http://www.fiberondecking.com/products/ ... nalDecking

[brianvh]

Good job Hugh and Dan!

A radial ramp would be cool but a little scary from a liability standpoint. Yet if it can be done it would be awesome.

We need to find someone who can donate time welding: professional rates aren't cheap. Tex Forrest comes to mind, but is there anyone else more local?

[DanTuck]

Here are some pics of the radial ramp at Henson's Gap from michaelb51 (hanggliding.org), the Tree Toppers website - http://www.treetoppers.org/ and a couple lifted from random blogs.
This ramp is huge but we may not need to make ours as big. Hugh, I'll email you these pics.

[dbodner]

A radial ramp, while nice, is probably a bit of overkill for the amount of flying we do there. That's gotta be some serious bucks. I do hope that Wash. Co. let's us at least do a proper concrete job, even if it's just a patch job. See you at the meeting on Thursday.

[brianvh]

Note they had rocks to rest the bottom on, so a radial ramp at HR would have to be clamped on the top only, which makes it a lot dicier. To me the question now is, would a ramp approximately the same size as the cube be preferable to a better formed cube? Not sure it would be. Those who were around to experience the old ramp would have to pitch in here. I think it would still basically be a cliff launch with respect to soarable winds, but with the option of more run off in light winds.

[DanTuck]

A rock n' roll picture of the old wood ramp that I saw posted. By the way, who is that?

[Danny Brotto]

Ahhh, the old launches at HR. That was Fred Permenter. You can see Rae on the nose position and a host of other good fellows hanging on. That was a Wills Attack Duck Fred was flying so I'd date the photo to the mid-80's. We used to kid Fred that Tom Petty wrote that song for him... "I Won't Back Down"... LOL!

The old ramp stuck further out in the airstream allowing less trashy air on the edge in strong condition (than the new cube). While the old ramp allowed us to launch in much stronger conditions, we needed the mondo crew to accommodate. Twanger launches were quite the experience and yes, your side wires would actually go "TWANG" when the crew released! Lighter winds were much the same as the existing cube.

Danny Brotto

[dbodner]

So, Danny, the mondo crew was necessary only for those high-wind launches we no longer do at HR? It sounds like you're suggesting that something like the old ramp might be an improvement on the cube. If (big if) we have to tear the cube down anyway, maybe a non-flammable ramp is the way to go.

[Danny Brotto]

Dave

The wooden ramp you see in the photo was the 3rd platform/ramp, I believe. I first flew from HR from the 2nd ramp in 1981. A few years later, I helped build that third ramp (which was the one that was burned down.) I don’t remember a lot of thought going into that ramp other that to make it bigger and stick out further than the previous structure to get into the airstream. The issue with the 3rd ramp was that in moderate winds, there would be a bit of ramp “suck” (which IMO isn’t due to rotor at all… but that’s a different thread.) When we had to landscape the cube, we thought that setting the platform so that the wing was not so much in the airstream would be a benefit. We also shifted the cube to the right to be between the pillars as a practical construction consideration. However the result was a squirrelly, but somewhat dead feeling to the glider in brisk winds (althoughthe ramp suck was gone.)

While the strong winds that we used to launch into with the old ramp were manageable it is not as comfortable with the cube. While we could launch comfortably it did look exciting as the photo depicts, although that was one of the more extreme days BTW, in strong winds, Massanutten (AKA Woodstock) was less flown in those days because the launch was a ¼ to ½ mile walk in to the North of where it is now. So for the stronger days we just made it work at HR. And on the light days, we just threw ourselves off of HR and learned to thermal.

A radial ramp would be awesome and with some financial backing, I think it could be realized… drunk wuffo interaction with terra fauna not withstanding.

Danny Brotto

[mcelrah]

Danny, Richard,

We are marching along with Dan Tuckwiler able to supply all kinds of research, CAD design, synthetic fire-resistant non-skid planking at concessionary rates, and construction supervision through volunteerism by his fellow employees at Long Fence. Need one or both of you to participate to provide MHGA/old fart input. Jim Sterling at Washington County parks, recreation and facilities is quite receptive, including to a "deck" solution. (Hoping county will supply machinery - and operators - for demolition of current crumbling cube.) Dan and I will be paying him a call - Dan has pictures of the old pavilion. Idea is to make the case for decking over the pillars (leaving them intact), so we have a bigger area. One thing we want to think through is provision for safe spectator positions during launch operations and how people will behave when we are NOT present. We considered putting in removable (but locked-in) guard rails, but decided that, as at Pulpit, it's better for casual visitors to understand that they are in a precarious spot and not to take responsibility for any possible stupidity on their part. Don't see any reason to retain the grating in front of the ramp - maybe save it for future reference. Please get back to me.

- Hugh

[DanTuck]

I really want to move quickly on this project so when work was slow this morning, I took the opportunity to leave and head out to High Rock to take some measurements and some more pictures. I got there and brought out my measuring tape and as soon as I got to the cube I heard someone say, 'Hey whatcha got goin' on there?' I looked up and it was Eddie Miller. What a sweet coincidence! He was quite concerned about the condition of the cube and was very happy to hear that we are doing something about it and is on board to be part of the team to get a new ramp built. Obviously his insight was/is quite valuable in understanding why the cube is the way it is now. Eddie was helping me take some measurements and I heard another voice behind my back -
Man: Hey, are you guys with the Capital Hang Gliding Association?
Me: Actually, yes. Hiya doin?
Man: Hi, I'm Jim Sterling, Director of Parks
Me(big smile): Hi, Jim! Great to meet ya!
Another awesome coincidence! So we talked about demolishing the current cube and bringing it back down to the level of the stone pillars. There are 8 pillars, 4 sets of 2. He likes the idea of building the ramp using the middle 4 pillars as support and then setting posts for the back section of the ramp. We would then build stairs like the new ramp at the Pulpit or more of a ramp down like the old ramp at the Pulpit. He wants to see some pictures of the Pulpit ramps so I'll get him some. About then he mentioned that he was there to meet the county engineer to take a look at it. So a few minutes later Joe Kroboth, Director of Public Works showed up. Seriously, I can't believe the luck that we are all up here at once. He had seen the pictures and agrees that something needs to be done. He's entirely open to the idea of a new ramp but he does think of it as a new structure and not any kind of repair. Permitting, engineering.... But when I told him that I could present him with a professionally designed and drawn submittal, I just can't get it stamped by an engineer, he seemed to think it was no problem for him to get a county engineer to stamp it. Jim mentioned he could get the permit through his department so it wouldn't cost us, and Joe even mentioned they could waive the fees if there were any. Bottom line, they are on board. The one thing they did say was that there is an agreement in place between the county and the club that stipulates we are responsible for maintaining the site and would therefore bear any and all costs associated with the project. We'll still try to get the county to help out somehow but we're going to need lots of support to make this happen.

At this point, Jim wants some pictures of the Pulpit ramps and is waiting for us to supply him with a proposal and drawings that they can get walked through. I think we should get the guys from MHGA and our BOD together at some point in the near future to hammer out the details of how we want to design this structure. If we can get the work done before it's too cold they'd be real happy. If not, Jim will probably fence off the cube until we do fix it in the spring.

[mcelrah]

Great job, Dan! I had exchanged voicemails with Jim Sterling this morning and he had mentioned he was going up to the rock with his boss, the Director of Public Works, and the county engineer, so your timing was indeed impeccable. I did speak with Richard Hays (MHGA) and he said he would mobilize Danny Brotto so we get technical input from guys who have actually flown from a wooden ramp at that site. I think you are converging with the authorities on a middle-of-the-road solution (ramp on the middle set of pillars) as opposed to the Utopian radial ramp. Having some broad steps up the back may be the solution to "where do the wuffos sit?" Can the county help with the demolition? - Hugh

[brianvh]

Unless some kind of retaining wall is put in place the gravel will keep eroding down by the steps, rendering any step construction a Sisyphian enterprise. I'd suggest railroad ties anchored to the rocks somehow.

All of this is happening because of the energy of some members of the HG community, just like with the Pulpit slope. I've heard rumors that mountain flying is dying due to lack of organizational interest. Not a chance! Thanks and humongous kudos to Hugh, Dan, Janni....

[Spark]

I have been following this thread with great interest, and I really like the direction it is going.

Many thanks to all who are working on this project.

[Danny Brotto]

Dan Tuck and Hugh, please send me your e-mail addresses and phone numbers via PM... I have some pertinent background information to help this project move along.

Danny Brotto

BTW..., thanks, great job!