Weak link question

[deveil]

tad,
not meaning to be flip, patronizing or anything like belittling or insulting or nothing - but that was a whole lot like relaxing to read. almost wish i was up to speed on the subject so i also could enjoy arguing(used in the dictionary sense) with you. because i too like a good argument. but alas i have no dog in this hunt . . .
now if anybody gets nasty like - well it's on them isn't it.
of course they can still tell you that you don't know where of you speak. but then that's the way it's supposed to go - a wrastlin' match with no eye gouging or ear biting. but if someone pulls someone else's hair i think the general rule is that that someone is still not allowed to kick them in the gonads.
it's a tough job being extraneous but i work damn hard at it.
garyD

[brianvh]

Jim, your point that a completely known and reliably tested weak link is the only 100% believable argument for one size fits all that I've heard. Of course, once somebody's been towing with it for a few months that's not really true anymore, but a tug pilot can always insist the link is replaced every 10 tows or something.

I can understand not trusting a hand made weaklink, no matter how much the creator fulminates about testing.

Is there perhaps a weaker material that is equally well known and tested, so people can make multiple loops with finer gradations? May be the only way to satisfy everyone.

[jimrooney]

If you can find one, more power to you.

Just keep in mind if you do, you need to be weaker than the tug's link... not equal to. You will need to talk it over with any tug pilot that you tow behind. Anything less is unethical. And just as you have the right to refuse a tow from any tugger, they have the right to refuse to tow you... for any reason what so ever.

Jim

[Tad Eareckson]

Hi Gary,

Appreciate the occasional words of encouragement but don't get your expectations of me up too high. I'm afraid I really enjoy every now and then kicking a gonad through the uprights from the fifteen yard line with a strong wind at my back when some more than deserving asshole is standing right in front of me with his legs spread. And I think it often serves a useful purpose.

P.S. I've had a soft spot in my heart for Barry White ever since, a few years before his death, he helped Lisa Simpson take a shot at a thinly disguised mob of pig fucking Texas rattlesnake rounduppers. (Yeah, I'm always hoping a big Diamondback gets an easy shot at a carotid artery.)

P.P.S. Postal time again... Forgive me.

Brian,

HAVE YOU LOST YOUR FREAKING MIND?! ARE YOU INHALING THE SAME MERCURY VAPORS THAT JIM IS? IS ANY SHRED OF REMAINING LOGIC TOAST? HAVE YOU HEARD A WORD I'VE SAID?

>
jimrooney

The tug uses 3 strand and so all this talk about using a stronger one is academic.

...

I want to know. Why? Cuz I'm on the other end of the damn rope!
<

Is it possible you do not see the INSANE DISCONNECT between those two statements?

>
You're asking a tow pilot to pull you.
<

I don't ASK the goddam tug pilot to tow me. I PAY the goddam tug pilot's employers to have him tow me.

USHPA - and the FAA - say I'm safe at 2.0 Gs. I don't want some one size fits all idiot telling me I've gotta tow BELOW what the FAA is safe. Fuckin' string puts me at 0.76 Gs at best and 0.39 at worst.

It's none of the tug pilot's goddam business what I put on my end. USHPA say's if I go 1.4 he's supposed to go heavier. If he doesn't, the effective weak link rating is entirely of his choosing. If it's something reasonable it doesn't really matter 'cause neither weak link will ever break with halfway competent pilots on both ends anyway.

If at any time either party doesn't like what's going on at either end of the rope there's a real simple solution to the problem.

>
Greenspun get's used because it's manufactured.
<

As opposed to being spun by elves in a hollow tree? (Duh.) By the way - this Sacred Standard that Jim has been using every day of his life for the past five years is actually GreenSPOT - but one would have had to have actually looked at the label to know that.

>
...You can get it at a fishing store and everyone knows what it is.
<

Bullshit. Most everyone thinks that Greenspot weak links are about twice as strong as they actually are (which is the root of most of our problems). It's a real good bet Jim has never tested one in his life and thus suffers under the same delusion.

>
Argue all you like about the validity of it's consistency in manufacturing (I know Tad will), but here's the rub... it has a testing system in place. And it far exceeds anything any non manufactured article could hope to achieve.
<

No, he doesn't know Tad will. Tad doesn't give a rat's ass about consistency in manufacturing 'cause it isn't so much as a speck on the radar compared to the degradation a weak link undergoes at the launch of a medium to large glider. That's why a virgin weak link that - in theory - will blow under 243 pounds of tow line tension FREQUENTLY gives up the ghost at 125. (Consistency my ass.) And what "testing system"?

>
Is there perhaps a weaker material that is equally well known and tested, so people can make multiple loops with finer gradations? May be the only way to satisfy everyone.
<

Yeah Brian. I did that THREE YEARS AGO. The folk who have switched to my configuration include Christy Huddle, Tim Hinkel, Hugh McElrath, Rich Cizauskas, Sunny Venesky, and Campbell Bowen. Steve Kinsley is flying a double loop so I get partial credit for him. Yeah, not much quantity yet but quality oughta count for something.

[RedBaron]

Gee Tad, Jim is just making sure nobody is going to rip off the tug's tail above Highland, they are kind of expensive, you know.
Brian, I don't know why you feel us bigger guys need to beef things up. Talked to Glen, he gave me permission to drop his name. He hooks to the tow line at an impressive 350 lb. He had a total of 1(!) unexpected weak link break out of all his tows. He knows nothing of this discussion, so I asked him how he felt about using a stronger weak link. His answer was a straight "NO". Both Glen and I veto you on beefing our weak links up based on our good and safe experience with greenspot.

[deveil]

"HAVE YOU LOST YOUR FREAKING MIND?! ARE YOU INHALING THE SAME MERCURY VAPORS THAT JIM IS? IS ANY SHRED OF REMAINING LOGIC TOAST? HAVE YOU HEARD A WORD I'VE SAID? "

that part actually had a sense of "you said wHat!? " about it.

beyond that you went back to being, well pretty much what most everyone has concluded, including having a somewhat pathetic and obvious perverse pleasure in being perverse. but it's not even creatively perverse. it actually Does get boring after a while, a predictable and unimaginative shtick. i suppose that's why some people are able to look past it. me? it's just gotten old. actually it got old any number of years ago. it ain''t worth the time and i went through all this some time ago over on the general forum . but that was at least entertaining. see ya and have at it.
gary

[brianvh]

Janni;

I'm not 100% sure I can speak for all us lighter pilots, but I suspect if anyone asked us to use a weaker link for safety's sake, we'd raise an equal or bigger stink.

Glen's experience of rarely breaking a link seems to jibe with the idea (garnered from my old K2 versus falcon) that if you are on an easier glider you just ain't likely to break a link, and it's more important than mass. Whatever. I've grown weary of this whole thing. Tow with what the tug pilot is willing to let you get away with if it makes you comfortable. All we've done is put some ideas out there.

Tad - please stop acting like everyone has to conform to your version of absolute truth. The tug pilot has to feel comfortable, and if he insists you have to fly with a magic rabbit foot you better go out and get yourself one.
And yes, since the tug's ass is on the line he's got every right to veto who he tows. May eventually get fired if exercised too often, but that's his own business and right. 'Inalienable right' and 'physically correct' need not be correlated.

Black folks in a bad neighborhood don't like that they can't get a cab at 3 am, but nobody's gonna write a law saying the cabs have no right of refusal. Safety always takes precedence over provision of service, and individuals have every right to decide what personal steps they take to keep themselves safe. You can do your best to convince them they are wrong, but it's ultimately their own perception that counts. Maybe if you accept this you'll stop going postal and take the more patient and productive route.

[deveil]

and i should have added that it's doubtful that that victim shtick will play the next go around. given a clear field of play, a clear unmuddy field of view for the rest of us, some slack, some rope as it were, and you chose to hang yourself while at the same time revealing some things and making some other things clear and unambiguous, possibly unintentionally or possibly perversely. no matter. same view. at least to me.
beyond that, it ain't worth commenting on further.
gary

[jimrooney]

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

[Tad Eareckson]

>
Tad - please stop acting like everyone has to conform to your version of absolute truth.
<

>
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
SOP 12-02
Pilot Proficiency Program
2.10 USHPA Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
B. USHPA Aero Vehicle Requirements

5. A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line. The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination. The weak link at the tow plane end of the towline should break with a towline tension approximately 100lbs. greater than the glider end.
<

1. Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE once and for all drop this crap about this being -MY- version of absolute truth?

2. Would someone - Brian, Janni, Lauren, ANYONE - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE explain to me how the tug's ass is endangered by a double loop ONLY when when it's on a SOLO glider - but not at all when it's on a TANDEM?

[brianvh]

Ooh, a demonstration of how shorter really is much better. I have to back to the sidelines on this, but must say it's a damn good comeback. Jim?

--------------------------------
>
Tad - please stop acting like everyone has to conform to your version of absolute truth.
<
>
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
SOP 12-02
Pilot Proficiency Program
2.10 USHPA Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
B. USHPA Aero Vehicle Requirements

5. A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line. The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination. The weak link at the tow plane end of the towline should break with a towline tension approximately 100lbs. greater than the glider end.
<

1. Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE once and for all drop this crap about this being -MY- version of absolute truth?

2. Would someone - Brian, Janni, Lauren, ANYONE - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE explain to me how the tug's ass is endangered by a double loop ONLY when when it's on a SOLO glider - but not at all when it's on a TANDEM?

[RedBaron]

Using weak links that are able to hold the tug's entire permitted take-off weight is madness for one. You can take those regulations, light and smoke them Tad. It may not be your truth, but not seeing through the bull is clearly your failure.
I'll give the tandems a pass, highly trained and competent instructors on single surface gliders and an equally competent tug pilot. Got nothing to do with, for example, me showing up with my Litespeed asking to be towed. Those two things are not on the same page, they are not even in the same book.

[brianvh]

1. "Using weak links that are able to hold the tug's entire permitted take-off weight is madness"

Unsupported statement. Please state references or easily verifiable personal experience.

2. "You can take those regulations, light and smoke them Tad. It may not be your truth, but not seeing through the bull is clearly your failure. "

Ambiguous pronoun. What does 'it' reference?

3. "I'll give the tandems a pass, highly trained and competent instructors on single surface gliders and an equally competent tug pilot. Got nothing to do with, for example, me showing up with my Litespeed asking to be towed. Those two things are not on the same page, they are not even in the same book."

This argument has merit, but the author is urged to refrain from the use of linked metaphors.

Summary: to this reviewer half the submission is worthy of inclusion in the present collection, but the introduction should be rewritten in a less subjective framework. The author is urged to make major revisions as indicated above.

[jimrooney]

Sorry Brian, I don't read Tad's posts.
If you want my opinion on something, you'll have to post the question.

Jim

[brianvh]

Jim - I quoted the whole thing. (yes that was the whole thing, short for Tad, which is what makes it worth looking at).

[RedBaron]

Glen + gear = 350 lb.
2G upper limit weak link = 700 lb.
Maximum take-off weight Dragonfly = 661.5 lb.

[brianvh]

Janni - why is that madness? Most of the max tow forces are caused by acceleration, not weight. you probably incur greater than 1 g acceleration walking into a door.

Jim - look below the dashed line in that post above. That's quoting Tad.

[jimrooney]

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.

What I said was that by using a weaklink that's stronger than the tug's, you're effectively removing your weaklink. Big difference.

Yes, this is what tandems do... because they must. A tandem with a single weaklink doesn't even leave the ground (it's been tested). You on the other hand have a choice.

By using a 4 strand weaklink, the tandem flies with the tug's weaklink as "the weaklink". Both the tug pilot and tandem pilot understand this and agree to it. I personally tow behind Zach more in a weekend than most (any?) of you tow in a year. We both have a clear understanding of the added risk we incur.

A tandem with a four strand weaklink is not equivalent to a solo with a 4 strand btw. Tandems are way heavier than even the fattest of the fatboys out there. The principle of removing the glider weaklink is the same, but the tug's weaklink is effectively stronger with a solo. Weren't you the one advocating "scaling" weaklinks?... this concept should make perfect sense to you then.

That cover it?
Jim

[brianvh]

Very good. Somewhere around 3 strands of greenspot is the upper limit set by equipment tolerances.

then the question becomes, does going significantly weaker help or hurt you? Apparently highly skilled pilots think so highly of their ability to prevent bad situations by either flying out of it or releasing that they are willing to risk not only themselves but a passenger. Would these same skilled pilots prefer a stronger or weaker link in gnarly conditions?

Janni - I was trying to be funny. But maximum g force can only be set by testing, not saying ad hoc that a certain value is insane. Jim's ripping apart equipment sounds like a test.

[brianvh]

BTW, my one strand weak link puts my glider above 1 g. Madness?

[RedBaron]

I still love you Brian. Jim, is a 700 lb. weak link for a guy like me madness or not, seriously?

[jimrooney]

Would these same skilled pilots prefer a stronger or weaker link in gnarly conditions?

Weaker.

I think you missed something very important... you seem to be under the impression that we choose to fly with 4strand. That somehow we have an inflated sense of our skills that "it's ok" so screw it, we'll use a strong link. This is not the case. We do it because we have to.

Is a 700lb weaklink madness?
Yes

Jim

[jimrooney]

Something else occurred to me...
There seems to be the impression that I think that because I fly so much, that I "can handle more". In fact, you have the impression that I'm so comfortable with this notion, that hell, I'll take someone else along.

Not at all.
I can handle less tandem. I have less safety devices tandem... in addition to a lesser weaklink setup (read stronger glider link) the tandem parachute is slower to deploy (must be used higher) and I have more weight to throw around (solo gliders are more easily maneuvered). I also have a passenger, and who knows if they're going to start grabbing sh*t? The deck is stacked higher against me tandem.

What I have is the understanding that I can't fly in the same crap that I could solo.... because my margins are lower. I have a familiarity that allows me to know when to STOP FLYING... which is always WAY sooner than I would solo. That's what flying every day with the same people and equipment does for me.

Jim

[brianvh]

If a light and a heavy pilot pull the same manuever, they will pull the same number of g's. So a pilot that's twice as heavy will exert twice as much force doing the same thing. So the same link will mean the heavier pilot can't fly the same way as the lighter pilot. Either the lighter pilot is less well 'protected' by the weak link, or the heavier pilot is being shafted by having more weak link breaks while doing the same thing.

Yes, can't go too close to the tug's weak link strength. But staying below that, why should the pilots be treated differently?

[jimrooney]

Didn't we already cover this?
So long as you're under the tug's link strength, it's not about weight. (Note, under... not equal)

Find a material that meets/exceeds greenspot in all aspects and you've got something.
Hand made stuff doesn't cut it. Handmade has no quality control and no standards. It is not identifiable.

I've yet to hear anything from anyone that even comes close. If it's out there, bring it on.
Till then, you're stuck with greenspot.
Jim