Religion

Post by **deveil** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:50 pm

i believe:
if one Really wants to step to the edge of that abyss, i'd say you're doing well if, when you've gazed to the brink of your sanity(mileage may differ, depending on life stages) -you decide to laugh and appreciate the echo... and then check it out for a good launch and lz.

Post by **Gene** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:07 pm

My color is blue skies with white puffy marshmallows. I pray to the dude(JC) carrying the gallon of milk and hope that I have a good day of soaring in warm weather. I guess the word would be Agnostic. Anyways, I like the post and can't wait to get out flying.
Gene

Post by **deveil** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:09 pm

paraphrasing dave:

deveil wrote: it's the nature of man...
to include definitions of 'us' and 'not us'...
destined to continue following the...directives to prevail...
it doesn't...matter whether anyone is now a 'christian' or a 'muslim' or a 'whatever'. by the tyranny of darwinism, 'we' could 'do' nothing other than evolve divided, into some form of 'us' and 'not us'...
so, everyone's god is actually a mechanism (and probably a darwinian mechanism), a device, to make the ruthlessness of darwinism more palatable...
so why should anyone have a problem with (religion)?

well, regardless of any inevitabilities, yeah, i agree that there are Serious gripes(understatement) with organized religions in that they impact the rest of us individually and as a society. the simple fact of their broad acceptance as 'The Answerers of THE BIG QUESTION' imbues them immense and undeniable power. 'they' should be called on stuff Loudly and relentlessly.

you know, to try to get things back on subject

(btw, thanks gene, hope you don't feel betrayed, but i hadn't been trying to wrap things up in a bow. it's that there are several things going on at once in this thread and i want to acknowledge such).

Post by **Gene** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:19 pm

So, where does the "Big Bang" theory fit. Just bored right now, wife working late and kids at practice (daughter drives now) yeah.
Gene

Post by **deveil** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:47 pm

Gene wrote:So, where does the "Big Bang" theory fit. Just bored right now, wife working late and kids at practice (daughter drives now) yeah.
Gene

answer?
a) Don't Ask! (damn fool, gheeze (but a good straight man)

)
or
b) 'put that one' to your wife when she gets home.

your choice.

yeah, 'guess i'll be spending the rest of the night doing what i should have been doing today!

Post by **deveil** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:39 pm

Paul Tjaden wrote: It was obviously written by primitive men who lived thousands of years ago and who used myths and legends passed down over the ages to fill its pages.

never underestimate the opponent! its endurance, prevalance and embeddedness attest to the probability that some pretty bright guys got their hands on it along the way(?)

That's one of Christianity's absurdities. That you can be condemned for having an enquiring mind and wishing to discover the truth.... be the perfect word of god.

one mans absurdity is another mans genius. einstein died with ulcers because he never could come up with one theory to cover both the large and small forces with one umbrella. and the string theory of everything is looking frayed at the edges (unraveling a bit actually, but it depends on which of the infinite dimensions you're viewing it from). so if you're going to be in the business of selling religion, you don't have much choice. it sure won't stand up Unless it's the perfect word of god. the genuius is making the entrance to the maze invisible yet unresistible. and once they're in they definitely Have to have a well thought out 'book of handwaving and other diversions'. sort of like a macdonalds franchise, and actually, having an unskilled workforce has its own advantages. (unfortunately, or predictably, it turns out that the prevert community discovered the beauty of 'The Maze of no Return'. Bwah! hah! hah! hah!

Post by **deveil** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:02 am

hmmmm.......pretty quiet.....

on the bright side - no one has posted urging me to seek proffessional help(?)

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:19 am

Sorry Gary,

Not sure if your IQ is much higher than mine or if you're in need of that help you mentioned but I don't understand what you're saying about 70% of the time. I'd be happy to reply if I knew what you were talking about.

I fear it's my Kansas farm boy background and State University education.

Paul

Post by **deveil** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:07 pm

Paul Tjaden wrote:Sorry Gary,

Not sure if your IQ is much higher than mine or if you're in need of that help you mentioned but I don't understand what you're saying about 70% of the time. I'd be happy to reply if I knew what you were talking about.

I fear it's my Kansas farm boy background and State University education.

Paul

yeah, my fault. i use (overuse?) a lot of allusion. i just checked the dictionary, myself, to make sure it's what i mean to say. it assumes more commonality or familiarity than is reasonable. being literal (again i checked that meaning) can be very limiting and easy to get tripped up on. i also find it hard to express, literally, some things that i feel are complex or are inherently murky beneath the surface. it also covers that i'm a mile wide and an inch deep (except when i get turned on edge)!

but thanks. really. thanks for the heads up. it's not your job but, any time you want to 'slap me up side the head', i'd welcome it.

but how about this thought (keeping in mind the mile wide inch deep thing): the scientists working with the string theory, the "theory of everything", an attempt to pull together all the disparate scientific theories under one comprehensive umbrella (and that's about All i understand of it) - they acknowledge that at its core, it depends on ideas that inherently, that is, by definition, can't be tested by scientific theory - and they're not dumping the theory because of it). don't know what the meaning is in that but i find it intrigueing and relevant in some way to this discussion. god/religion/intuitive/rational/science. the lines dividing them can be drawn, certainly. i just don't know how brightly they can be drawn. and if one tries to draw them too brightly - does that itself cause distortion? ( i'm doing it again, aren't i ? ).

Post by **dbodner** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:13 pm

I'm not sure how much of string theory can never be tested or just can't be tested with what we've got now. But, I think it makes at least some predictions that can be tested. And the theory probably makes some kind of mathematical sense. So, while we're not ready to embrace it yet as a great truth, we don't dismiss it either. At this point it's an very interesting hypothesis. More than I can see about other ideas.

Post by **deveil** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:55 pm

yeah. and all the dudes at the top of the field are sitting around calling each other idiots. as it should be, the rigors of science and all that. i'm just relating what i heard One guy say in a pbs discussion on the charlie rose show, for the purpose of trying to illustrate a point (or if not a point then a blur, or a chimera, whatever).
(but...there's that literal thing.)

besides, if you're having a lively talk, Really talking about ideas - 30% on the first pass is doing pretty good.

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:19 pm

You guys are still shooting over my head. I am completely clueless regarding the "string theory" beyond the fact that I have heard of it. I do think I understand where Gary is coming from regarding his thoughts that some of these more elusive theories delve into the possibility of there being an "entity " involved that goes beyond natural laws and physics. Am I getting this right , Gary?

Anyway, if someone really tied me down, I think I'd have to describe myself as an agnostic rather than an atheist. I am totally confident that the man made religions that have evolved on this planet are nonsense but there are still enough scientifically unanswered questions out there that it would be presumptious of me to say with absolute resolve that there could not be something we don't understand at the core. I would also state that I strongly believe that eventually we will find these answers and that they will all fall within the realm of natural law. I just can't say that with absolute impunity.......yet!!!!

I suppose you guys heard the one about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac who layed awake at night wondering if there was a dog.

Sorry about that,

Paul

Post by **deveil** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:42 pm

Paul Tjaden wrote:Y
I suppose you guys heard the one about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac who layed awake at night wondering if there was a dog.
Paul

hmmmm? berry intwawestwing.
agnostic - close enough
dyslexic - check
insomniac -yep

so, if we weren't talking about dogs, what were we talking about - cats?
oh, i almost forgot my credo: don't ask!

(i'm worn out)

Post by **deveil** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:58 pm

besides, if 'it' is ever all figured out, it will be so esoteric and complex that only a computer could make any sense of it. hell, that'll probably be because only a computer can figure it out in the first place. and we'll have to 'take it on faith' from the computer that it knows what it's talking about! which leaves us all in exactly the same place, individually, that we are now!
but that's okay. i'm already hedging my bets - i've got two dogs and i treat them Damn well!

Marco Zee · Post by **Marco Zee** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:04 pm

Paul Tjaden wrote:BTW, This summer I lost my Sister to cancer and my Mother to natural causes. It was sad to lose them but I'd rather face the fact that they are gone than live my brief life deluded into believing that I'll see them again especially if I have to base that belief on a book so fraught with nonsense as "The Holy Bible".

Paul

Paul,
Were your mom and sisters enlightened, learned atheists like you? How about Lauren? Just wondering how pervasive atheism runs in your family.
Marco

Marco Zee · Post by **Marco Zee** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:06 pm

Paul Tjaden wrote:Sorry Gary,

Not sure if your IQ is much higher than mine or if you're in need of that help you mentioned but I don't understand what you're saying about 70% of the time. I'd be happy to reply if I knew what you were talking about.

Paul

Paul,
Finally some agreement !!! LOL

Marco

Post by **deveil** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:42 am

well, it Was sitting right out there in the open, available to anyone who happened by. i'll not begrudge you an easy shot, considering how overall hard it's been for you to score.

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:53 am

Marco asks:

Were your mom and sisters enlightened, learned atheists like you? How about Lauren? Just wondering how pervasive atheism runs in your family.

Hey Marco,

Lauren and I share similar beliefs although I tend to be more "evangelical" in sharing my thoughts. I believe that there are many atheists and agnostics out there who are "in the closet" due to the stigma that can be attached to these labels in our mostly Christian society. It would be easier for a gay, black woman to be elected to office than an atheist. So in my small way, I am trying to do what I can to tell people that it's OK to question religion and make personal decisions based on what they percieve to be the facts.

Contrary to what many believe, most atheists (like most Christians) are honest caring people and do not worship satan or spend all their time with debauchery (although it sounds like fun)! We also don't hate Christians as I have heard numerous times from right wing talk show hosts and Christian evangelicals. I WOULD love to see all children raised in a way that would allow them to study the options and make there own decisions rather than be brainwashed into the faith. A couple of days back, while waiting at the Ford dealer for my trucks oil to be changed, I picked up and read a childrens religious book that had been left there by some well meaning Christian group. I was absolutely amazed at the garbage that they were attempting to feed.

Regarding my Mother and sister, I was raised in a strong Methodist tradition in a small Kansas town. We were exposed to Christianity and strong moral and ethical teachings from day one. I would like to think the ethics and morality stuck but I was always a skeptical individual and sometime around my late thirties, and after much study, I realized that I just couldn't buy it anymore. I'm sure that you find this sad but to me it was a great relief and revelation. I have been completely at peace with my decision ever since.

There is one more thing you mentioned in an earlier post that I'd like to address. You alluded to the fact that there would come a time when I feared for my life or the life of a loved one and would come back to the fold and pray for forgiveness. I assure you that this is not true. I am content in knowing that our lives are finite. A few years ago I was diagnosed with an auto immune disease that included some pretty scary mortality rates. When I thought my life might be over soon I was of course sad that I wouldn't be able to spend more years with Lauren doing the things we love but it never crossed my mind to pray about it. I am absolutely confident in my beliefs. It turns out that I was a lucky one and my version of the disease wasn't as deadly as some people have and I'm still around. Perhaps, had I been a Christian I could have prayed for healing and now I could tell everyone about how God spared me.

BTW, I do appreciate the "learned and enlightened" part even if you didn't really mean it.

Paul

Post by **deveil** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:14 am

see, you guys caused me to dig through a stack of mags and find an article in dec. 2006 Esquire, by Tyler Cabot, titled 'the theory of everything' - and give it another pass (comprehension is another matter!).
it talks about physicists and their theories and struggles at the Perimeter Institute, founded by the guy who started the company that made the Blackberry, to fund basic research in theoretical physics.
a quote from the author: "...(their) job is to get into God's head and figure out how the big damn machine works." it's certainly not about god ... but here's a quote from one of the physicists. "i think that the pragmatic, antiphilosophical thing has played itself out...referring to results-oriented physics."

i thought you might like it, dave, if you haven't already seen it or its ilk. if you can't dig anything up on the net, i can always loan it to you, since you're nearby.

Post by **deveil** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:53 am

Paul Tjaden wrote: I am absolutely confident in my beliefs.

i don't know, i think when my time comes i'll be squinting my eyes tight shut. i worry that them reincarnationists would be on to something and i'll come back as a worm!

btw, nicely written (and i got the whole hundred per cent

)

Post by **Gene** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:06 pm

What about Edgar Cayce or Nostradamus. Oracles? Do you believe or just coincidence?
Gene

Post by **deveil** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:38 pm

Marco Zee wrote:
Paul Tjaden wrote:Sorry Gary,
Not sure ... but I don't understand what you're saying about 70% of the time.
Paul
Paul,
Finally some agreement !!! LOL
Marco

quoting from the post (i love this writing also!):
the movie is a weird hybrid, part southern gothic curio, part exploitation flick...."i (the writer/director) wanted to put all the South's obsessions, fears, sins and aspirations in this movie...that included drive-in movies, the iconogrophy of the soldier and the slut and the horny farmer's daughter...historical baggage - from the murder of Emmett Till to innuendo used against senatorial candidate..."
...(he) set out to make (also) "a movie where the poster will be up in dorm rooms for decades."
he says he realized the story " was about faith, God, community and my mind, and how i needed to be chained to something...held to home somehow."

and low i say unto you, don't buy a surround sound hi-def plasma sony triniton if you got your mind filtered for black and white ! (that was me)

(i'm predicting reception somewhere down in the single digits)

Post by **deveil** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:14 pm

Gene wrote:What about Edgar Cayce or Nostradamus. Oracles? Do you believe or just coincidence?
Gene

at some point one has to wonder whether there is anything different or more that we can attain through our musings, greater than that achievable by the agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac? i.e. laying awake at night wondering if there is a dog.
(most jokes/humour are double sided )that's why they're funny/poigaint(sp?) ! )

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:37 am

Gene wrote:What about Edgar Cayce or Nostradamus. Oracles? Do you believe or just coincidence?
Gene

I really haven't felt the need to study Cayce or Nostradamus so I can't speak with any authority. It does seem to me that they were both extremely prolific in making predictions. Some of these predictions seem to have been correct but a great many were not. If you make enough calls, some will be correct.

Paul

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:51 am

Marco Zee wrote:
Paul,
Were your mom and sisters enlightened, learned atheists like you? How about Lauren? Just wondering how pervasive atheism runs in your family.
Marco

So Marco, How about you? Were you brought up in the faith or did you have a revelation later in life?

BTW, there's an interesting article in todays NYT regarding a Darwinian approach to why virtually all human societies have included religion.

Paul

chgpa.org

Religion

Black Snake Moan, looking forward to it (love the title)