I haven't done a poll but it seems to me that there are a significant number of hang glider pilots that, like me, are non-believers. Joe has mentioned it once or twice and I have spoken to several others who share my belief or lack thereof. I personally feel that most if not all organized religions actually pose a long term threat to human society and would like to see us outgrow them. To that end I am posting a link to a web site that explains far more eloquently than I ever could the reasons I feel the way I do. This website was mentioned in Sam Harris' best seller "Letter to a Christian Nation". If you share my beliefs or have ever questioned some of the inconsistent or downright wacko writings in "the perfect word of God" then take a look!
P. S. Don't let the web address scare you off. It will make sense after you read it.
Paul
http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com
Religion
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
or...i could send you the cd's that my neighbor gave me (bought for me specifically as a gift 
) to explain exactly the opposite.
oh wait, that's right... i, later, fast slipped them under his car seat as i beat a fast retreat saying something about having left the stove on
. out of respect, i did actually listen to them. i was raised 'in the tradition' (he came late, sort of like shrub - properly having spent his early years really (and i mean Really) accumulating stuff to be repentant for) and not only was there nothing new, a lot of the stuff i found to be really appalling gobbledy-gook.
we're still good neighbors.
i personally, copied some of the stuff and bookmarked the site (looks intrigueing) for the next time i want to turn that rock over. right now i'm finding plenty of solace in booze, dave chapell, and 'Reno 911'.
[as you're now keenly aware - This is who you want to show up here!]
i.e......
) to explain exactly the opposite.oh wait, that's right... i, later, fast slipped them under his car seat as i beat a fast retreat saying something about having left the stove on
. out of respect, i did actually listen to them. i was raised 'in the tradition' (he came late, sort of like shrub - properly having spent his early years really (and i mean Really) accumulating stuff to be repentant for) and not only was there nothing new, a lot of the stuff i found to be really appalling gobbledy-gook.we're still good neighbors.
i personally, copied some of the stuff and bookmarked the site (looks intrigueing) for the next time i want to turn that rock over. right now i'm finding plenty of solace in booze, dave chapell, and 'Reno 911'.
[as you're now keenly aware - This is who you want to show up here!
]i.e......
garyDevan
yeah, but think of all the airtime - the thermals should be awesome!
while you'll just be a bored cloud potatoe.
cause according to the frank cappra movies i've watched, you'll be a long time earning your wings.
and with things going your way down here, all them virgins will have long been spoken for.
while you'll just be a bored cloud potatoe.
cause according to the frank cappra movies i've watched, you'll be a long time earning your wings.
and with things going your way down here, all them virgins will have long been spoken for.
garyDevan
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Paul Tjaden
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:28 pm
Marco writes: "I hope you guys enjoy your brief stay on this earth....you will be burning in hell for a long long long long long long long time".
I can't imagine a better reason for not being a christian than the idea that I'm supposed to worship a "loving and caring God" who then promises to "Burn me in Hell. Muuaah Ha Ha Ha Ha!" If I don't grovel at his feet.
Is this the concept of "free will" that Christians talk about? Worship me or else?
Paul
BTW, I was also "brought up in the faith". It took me years of thought and study before I could throw off the brain washing I received as a child. Now when I read the bible I am amazed that anyone could buy into this grim fairy tale.
I can't imagine a better reason for not being a christian than the idea that I'm supposed to worship a "loving and caring God" who then promises to "Burn me in Hell. Muuaah Ha Ha Ha Ha!" If I don't grovel at his feet.
Is this the concept of "free will" that Christians talk about? Worship me or else?
Paul
BTW, I was also "brought up in the faith". It took me years of thought and study before I could throw off the brain washing I received as a child. Now when I read the bible I am amazed that anyone could buy into this grim fairy tale.
Paul,
If you are right, then there is no God, no heaven, and no hell, and so you have nothing to worry about when your life ends....it just ends.
But if you are wrong, and there is a God, and a hell, and an afterlife, then you might have a "very warm" reception awaiting you when you pass on.
One day, when someone you love dearly ( not wishing you ill here Lauren) is very ill or injured, you are going to recall the lessons of your youth and ask God for mercy and forgiveness.....you are not there yet...but its coming,.... as sure as the morning sunrise. Deep deep down inside, are you really 100% sure that there is no God??? You don't have to answer this to me....this is your own soul you have to whom you must answer.
Fortunately for you, God is forgiving and will hear your prayers, and might consider answering your prayers, even tho you have turned your back on him for many years. Do you recall the story of the Prodigal Son?
Marco
If you are right, then there is no God, no heaven, and no hell, and so you have nothing to worry about when your life ends....it just ends.
But if you are wrong, and there is a God, and a hell, and an afterlife, then you might have a "very warm" reception awaiting you when you pass on.
One day, when someone you love dearly ( not wishing you ill here Lauren) is very ill or injured, you are going to recall the lessons of your youth and ask God for mercy and forgiveness.....you are not there yet...but its coming,.... as sure as the morning sunrise. Deep deep down inside, are you really 100% sure that there is no God??? You don't have to answer this to me....this is your own soul you have to whom you must answer.
Fortunately for you, God is forgiving and will hear your prayers, and might consider answering your prayers, even tho you have turned your back on him for many years. Do you recall the story of the Prodigal Son?
Marco
Sorry Gary,deveil wrote:yeah, but think of all the airtime - the thermals should be awesome!
Great thermals, but no hangliding in hell.....why do you think they call it HELL !!! What greater suffering for a HG/PG pilot then to be able to see the thermals, and NEVER be able to soar in them. And you guys whine so loudly when P-40 is closed for a few days, just imagine HG closed down forever....now that's hell !!!
Marco
Marco Zee wrote:... you are going to recall the lessons of your youth... Do you recall the story of ...
Marco
yeah but...have you ever listened to a recorded version - backwards and half speed?Paul Tjaden wrote: Now when I read the bible I am amazed that anyone could buy into this grim fairy tale.
(you guys gettin me nervous, i'm leaving before the cops show up.)
garyDevan
)Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:08 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you guys enjoy your brief stay on this earth....you will be burning in hell for a long long long long long long long time
Not a problem because THERE IS NO SUCH PLACE. It is all about imagination with the purpose of controlling people. FEAR, FEAR, and more FEAR.
You cannot suffer if you are dead and we all end up that way. The reason religon sells so well is because the various religous faiths tell everyone they will live forever in a fairy tale land they call heaven if they will just accept their brand of fiction. Other wise people are told they are going to live forever in punishment. Sick sick sick. BUT the real story is you can make a lot of money selling this snake oil e.g. Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc.
Joe
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I hope you guys enjoy your brief stay on this earth....you will be burning in hell for a long long long long long long long time
Not a problem because THERE IS NO SUCH PLACE. It is all about imagination with the purpose of controlling people. FEAR, FEAR, and more FEAR.
You cannot suffer if you are dead and we all end up that way. The reason religon sells so well is because the various religous faiths tell everyone they will live forever in a fairy tale land they call heaven if they will just accept their brand of fiction. Other wise people are told they are going to live forever in punishment. Sick sick sick. BUT the real story is you can make a lot of money selling this snake oil e.g. Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc.
Joe
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Paul Tjaden
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:28 pm
Marco writes: "If you are right, then there is no God, no heaven, and no hell, and so you have nothing to worry about when your life ends....it just ends.
But if you are wrong, and there is a God, and a hell, and an afterlife, then you might have a "very warm" reception awaiting you when you pass on.
One day, when someone you love dearly ( not wishing you ill here Lauren) is very ill or injured, you are going to recall the lessons of your youth and ask God for mercy and forgiveness.....you are not there yet...but its coming,.... as sure as the morning sunrise. Deep deep down inside, are you really 100% sure that there is no God??? You don't have to answer this to me....this is your own soul you have to whom you must answer.
Fortunately for you, God is forgiving and will hear your prayers, and might consider answering you prayers, even tho you have turned your back on him for many years. Do you recall the story of the Prodigal Son?"
Marco,
As I mentioned before, I grew up in the church and have read and studied the bible extensively. It was through this study that I realized how absurd the idea that it could be the perfect word of god. It was obviously written by primitive men who lived thousands of years ago and who used myths and legends passed down over the ages to fill its pages. So, I have read and studied your book.
The web page I mentioned in my initial post leads you to a book which explains the logic and intelligence of my decision versus the superstitions and scare tactics of yours. Will you read and study my book as I have yours? Or are you afraid that god will condemn you for even looking at its pages? That's one of Christianity's absurdities. That you can be condemned for having an enquiring mind and wishing to discover the truth.
BTW, This summer I lost my Sister to cancer and my Mother to natural causes. It was sad to lose them but I'd rather face the fact that they are gone than live my brief life deluded into believing that I'll see them again especially if I have to base that belief on a book so fraught with nonsense as "The Holy Bible".
Paul
But if you are wrong, and there is a God, and a hell, and an afterlife, then you might have a "very warm" reception awaiting you when you pass on.
One day, when someone you love dearly ( not wishing you ill here Lauren) is very ill or injured, you are going to recall the lessons of your youth and ask God for mercy and forgiveness.....you are not there yet...but its coming,.... as sure as the morning sunrise. Deep deep down inside, are you really 100% sure that there is no God??? You don't have to answer this to me....this is your own soul you have to whom you must answer.
Fortunately for you, God is forgiving and will hear your prayers, and might consider answering you prayers, even tho you have turned your back on him for many years. Do you recall the story of the Prodigal Son?"
Marco,
As I mentioned before, I grew up in the church and have read and studied the bible extensively. It was through this study that I realized how absurd the idea that it could be the perfect word of god. It was obviously written by primitive men who lived thousands of years ago and who used myths and legends passed down over the ages to fill its pages. So, I have read and studied your book.
The web page I mentioned in my initial post leads you to a book which explains the logic and intelligence of my decision versus the superstitions and scare tactics of yours. Will you read and study my book as I have yours? Or are you afraid that god will condemn you for even looking at its pages? That's one of Christianity's absurdities. That you can be condemned for having an enquiring mind and wishing to discover the truth.
BTW, This summer I lost my Sister to cancer and my Mother to natural causes. It was sad to lose them but I'd rather face the fact that they are gone than live my brief life deluded into believing that I'll see them again especially if I have to base that belief on a book so fraught with nonsense as "The Holy Bible".
Paul
Paul,
You have my sympathies for the loss of you family members, and the loss of your faith.
To suggest that some website has disproven the existence of God is TRULY THE MOST ABSURD STATEMENT EVER MADE.....HERE OR ANYWHERE.
For thousands of years, Man has tried to prove or disprove the existence of God.....it can neither be proven or disproven...and your website has not disproven anything. It is strictly a matter of faith.
Religion to me is a guidestick to living a better, moral life both personally and as a society. It is not imperative that you can understand, agree with, or accept every sentence written in the Bible by imperfect men to understand the appeal and pursuasion of its thrust.
We should be kind and respectful of each other, helpful to the less fortunate, loving to our family and friends. We should not kill, steal, covet your neighbors wife or possessions, bare false witness, etc...Which of these do you not agree with?
Most US Laws are based on Christian values and beliefs, passed down from Roman Law, and that great Christian Roman Emperor, Marcus Aurelius.
Marco
You have my sympathies for the loss of you family members, and the loss of your faith.
To suggest that some website has disproven the existence of God is TRULY THE MOST ABSURD STATEMENT EVER MADE.....HERE OR ANYWHERE.
For thousands of years, Man has tried to prove or disprove the existence of God.....it can neither be proven or disproven...and your website has not disproven anything. It is strictly a matter of faith.
Religion to me is a guidestick to living a better, moral life both personally and as a society. It is not imperative that you can understand, agree with, or accept every sentence written in the Bible by imperfect men to understand the appeal and pursuasion of its thrust.
We should be kind and respectful of each other, helpful to the less fortunate, loving to our family and friends. We should not kill, steal, covet your neighbors wife or possessions, bare false witness, etc...Which of these do you not agree with?
Most US Laws are based on Christian values and beliefs, passed down from Roman Law, and that great Christian Roman Emperor, Marcus Aurelius.
Marco
Bodner's ungrammatical rule #1. "Morality is what you do when no one's watching." Are you truly acting morally if you think you're being watched by the omnicient cop? I have greater respect for the person doing the right thing when no one's looking over his shoulder. Doing the right thing out of fear of eternal damnation is nothing to be proud of.
Yes Paul, I'm an atheist, though I try not to overemphasize the damage done by religion. A number of years ago I wrote this http://www.atheistcoalition.org/docs/in ... igion.html to some of my fellow atheists who laid all the ills of the world at religion's feet. That was, however, before 9/11.
Yes Paul, I'm an atheist, though I try not to overemphasize the damage done by religion. A number of years ago I wrote this http://www.atheistcoalition.org/docs/in ... igion.html to some of my fellow atheists who laid all the ills of the world at religion's feet. That was, however, before 9/11.
David Bodner
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Paul Tjaden
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:28 pm
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Paul Tjaden
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:28 pm
Marco,
For thousands of years man has invented hundreds if not thousands of Gods. The one you worship is just one of a handful of more recent inclusions. Although it may be difficult to prove that there is no God, especially to someone who has a propensity to believe in fairy tales, I believe that it can be proven that the "Holy Bible" is NOT the "written word of God". It is instead the creation of numerous primitive goat herders drawing upon the myths and legends passed down through the ages. If the bible is false, so is Christianity (and Judaism and Islam for that matter. They all worship the "God of Abraham".) Once again if you read the information in the website that I posted, I believe it easily proves my point. But you won't, will you? You're afraid that God will punish you for even giving it a look. You think I am Satan trying to tempt you away from the faith. This is one of the many ways that Christianity has of keeping you from discovering the truth once they have brainwashed you as a child.
As for using the Bible as a moral guidepost, it only works if you cherry pick the verses. The Bible openly promotes and condones slavery, misogyny, the slaughter of thousands of innocent children,and discrimination of every flavor. Here's a particularly nice quote you'll want to share with your children:
Numbers, chapter 31. Moses says, "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones and kill every woman who has known man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves".
And this comes from the man who spoke with God and delivered the 10 commandments!!!
Our society gets it's moral guidelines not from the Bible but from common sense and intelligence. For example, I don't wish to be killed therefore no one wishes to be killed therefore we create a law not to kill, etc. Even when the Bible approves of an evil such as slavery, we realize that we wouldn't want to be a slave therefore no one wants to be a slave therefore we create laws against slavery.
If the Bible were the true word of a kind, loving and all knowing God it wouldn't be so full of nonsense and terrible moral and ethical teachings. You wouldn't have to cherry pick it's contents to come up with a few words of wisdom. THINK ABOUT IT!!!!
Paul
For thousands of years man has invented hundreds if not thousands of Gods. The one you worship is just one of a handful of more recent inclusions. Although it may be difficult to prove that there is no God, especially to someone who has a propensity to believe in fairy tales, I believe that it can be proven that the "Holy Bible" is NOT the "written word of God". It is instead the creation of numerous primitive goat herders drawing upon the myths and legends passed down through the ages. If the bible is false, so is Christianity (and Judaism and Islam for that matter. They all worship the "God of Abraham".) Once again if you read the information in the website that I posted, I believe it easily proves my point. But you won't, will you? You're afraid that God will punish you for even giving it a look. You think I am Satan trying to tempt you away from the faith. This is one of the many ways that Christianity has of keeping you from discovering the truth once they have brainwashed you as a child.
As for using the Bible as a moral guidepost, it only works if you cherry pick the verses. The Bible openly promotes and condones slavery, misogyny, the slaughter of thousands of innocent children,and discrimination of every flavor. Here's a particularly nice quote you'll want to share with your children:
Numbers, chapter 31. Moses says, "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones and kill every woman who has known man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves".
And this comes from the man who spoke with God and delivered the 10 commandments!!!
Our society gets it's moral guidelines not from the Bible but from common sense and intelligence. For example, I don't wish to be killed therefore no one wishes to be killed therefore we create a law not to kill, etc. Even when the Bible approves of an evil such as slavery, we realize that we wouldn't want to be a slave therefore no one wants to be a slave therefore we create laws against slavery.
If the Bible were the true word of a kind, loving and all knowing God it wouldn't be so full of nonsense and terrible moral and ethical teachings. You wouldn't have to cherry pick it's contents to come up with a few words of wisdom. THINK ABOUT IT!!!!
Paul
What greater suffering? hmm...how about getting addicted to flying but every other time one goes out it's crossingMarco Zee wrote:Sorry Gary, ... What greater suffering for a HG/PG pilot then to be able to see the thermals, and NEVER be able to soar in them. ...deveil wrote:yeah, but think of all the airtime - the thermals should be awesome!
or great at the site you're not at 
or too strong or too light or it dies as soon as you get to launch 
i may miss hanggliding, but it's a dull throb compared to that anguish!
apparently it's not only amputees he has a grudge against! (or maybe it was just me he was messin with
)garyDevan
Paul,
Good commentary. I haven't read the book you mentioned. I did read one that recommended by Cragin - The Good Book. It's by a Harvard cleric. He's also black and gay. Interesting read. I tried to borrow it from the library, but they didn't have it in the system out here in the eastern panhandle of West by God, but the head librarian loaned me a copy she had of it. Someone had given it to her thinking she might find it interesting. She hasn't read it yet.... May have something to do with the fact that she's a minister also.
I believe in God, but's my version (pantheism) which makes sense to me since if you harm someone else, you're harming yourself since you're all part of the same thing. As for the other trappings of formal religion, I don't buy them. Jesus said to pray in your closet which is a far cry from all the hoopla you see today in the organized religions that fall under the Christian flag.
I realize that some people need religion for what it brings them. A friend of mine suffers from depression and it was religion that helps her to get through the rough periods. For another person, it's dance. Some people belong to a church for the community. Others belong to CHGPA.
I have a real hard time with people who think they should be able to foist their religion on you. Guilt trips have absolutely no effect on me, so the future punishment they hang over you if you don't believe what they believe, means little.
I have to admit when I lived in France I enjoyed having the Watchtower folks show up. I was still learning the language, so talking with them for the hour they were willing to stay, meant a free lesson. Now that I'm back in the world of English speaking folk, I just tell them I'm a Unitarian and they go running.
Christy
Good commentary. I haven't read the book you mentioned. I did read one that recommended by Cragin - The Good Book. It's by a Harvard cleric. He's also black and gay. Interesting read. I tried to borrow it from the library, but they didn't have it in the system out here in the eastern panhandle of West by God, but the head librarian loaned me a copy she had of it. Someone had given it to her thinking she might find it interesting. She hasn't read it yet.... May have something to do with the fact that she's a minister also.
I believe in God, but's my version (pantheism) which makes sense to me since if you harm someone else, you're harming yourself since you're all part of the same thing. As for the other trappings of formal religion, I don't buy them. Jesus said to pray in your closet which is a far cry from all the hoopla you see today in the organized religions that fall under the Christian flag.
I realize that some people need religion for what it brings them. A friend of mine suffers from depression and it was religion that helps her to get through the rough periods. For another person, it's dance. Some people belong to a church for the community. Others belong to CHGPA.
I have a real hard time with people who think they should be able to foist their religion on you. Guilt trips have absolutely no effect on me, so the future punishment they hang over you if you don't believe what they believe, means little.
I have to admit when I lived in France I enjoyed having the Watchtower folks show up. I was still learning the language, so talking with them for the hour they were willing to stay, meant a free lesson. Now that I'm back in the world of English speaking folk, I just tell them I'm a Unitarian and they go running.
Christy
agreedhuddlec wrote:Paul, Good commentary.
but he's got the easy job (joke)
i'm trying to keep marco away from the deep end of the pool,
hoping he'll keep at his current depth, away from the burn in hell stuff
(i caught the wink marco, 'know it was a tease)
so that this can roll out. how bout it marco, i know you can do it.
if you start to feel like throwing things - stop and count to ten.
(hey, you want sincere - that's what i got).
garyDevan
Coincidentally, while I was writing that post, I received an email from a friend of mine who is fighting her second bout with cancer. She was telling me about her sister:
Christy[/quote]
Her sister might think she's being helpful, because she would use her faith to get her through a second bout with cancer. Too bad she can't see that it has the reverse effect on my friend.she really wants to "help" me and be there for me, whatever i need when i'm on the down swing, but then i have to pay by listenin to her constant "love for the lord", "christians this christians that"!
Christy[/quote]
)i also quit trying to figure out what my favorite color was.
i can't Tell you what a fricking relief That was!
but that answer really Does piss people off when they ask you that question!
(although i think i'm a 'fall' person).
if you get the seriousness and the humour at the same time, one not detracting from the other, perhaps the combination providing a clearer picture...then you get what i'm attempting to say. otherwise...hey, just ignore it.
i can't Tell you what a fricking relief That was!
but that answer really Does piss people off when they ask you that question!
(although i think i'm a 'fall' person).
if you get the seriousness and the humour at the same time, one not detracting from the other, perhaps the combination providing a clearer picture...then you get what i'm attempting to say. otherwise...hey, just ignore it.
garyDevan