No more cliff launch

Post by **hepcat1989** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:53 pm

Speaking of Lookout Mt. I just received a news letter from them, and they are doing away with the cliff launch. They are building a radial ramp. They said it will be a safer launch.........They also said that it should require much less in the way of skilled wire crew??It should also make launching in strong conditions MUCH easier???That's what it says..How many cliff launches are left? Shawn.

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:34 pm

Radial launches are easier btw.

Post by **hepcat1989** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:36 pm

I just thought that the cliff launch made it unique.. I guess it would be a safer set up. Shawn.

Post by **mcelrah** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:19 pm

So should we build a radial launch at High Rock? - Hugh

Post by **hepcat1989** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:23 pm

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:46 pm

Being a total tow head and not having cliff OR mountain launched in nearly two years (something I hope to rectify this summer) I don't suppose my opinion matters much but....I think Hugh has an excellent idea. From what I have heard, radial ramps are about as safe as as any launch can be and should reduce the need for wire crew on moderate days and make things safer on strong days. Then we wouldn't need to worry about Stevey Kinsley flying when he is the "onliest pilot there". I have been flying only a few years but during that time we have had three blown launches at HR. We are lucky that none ended in serious injury or worse and I'm sure there have been many more over the years of which I am unaware. But things like this have a tendency to catch up with us.

Is such a launch feasible at HR? Another possible plus... could PG's launch from a radial ramp?

Paul

Richard Hays · Post by **Richard Hays** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:03 pm

LETS DO IT!!!!! But.....we have to make it fire-proof. Anybody know
what I'm talking about?? LMAO!!

God...it sucks being old.

Rich

>From: Hugh McElrath <mcelrah@verizon.net>
>Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Re: No more cliff launch
>Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:19:38 -0500
>
>So should we build a radial launch at High Rock? - Hugh
>
>

Post by **hepcat1989** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:22 pm

Dammit!

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:25 pm

Richard Hays wrote:LETS DO IT!!!!! But.....we have to make it fire-proof. Anybody know
what I'm talking about?? LMAO!!

God...it sucks being old.

Rich

>From: Hugh McElrath <mcelrah@verizon.net>
>Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Re: No more cliff launch
>Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:19:38 -0500
>
>So should we build a radial launch at High Rock? - Hugh
>
>

Yes--would definitely need to be 4th-of-July proof.

Getting approval from the county would likely be a very sticky matter, I think.

marc

Post by **hepcat1989** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:31 pm

No, Dammit, Why?

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:38 pm

hepcat1989 wrote:No, Dammit, Why?

Little thing called building permit on public land.

A ramp is a great idea--but it might also be viewed as an enhanced diving board for locals working on perfecting their swan dives in preperation for the Darwin Olympics.

marc

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:46 am

To a hang glider pilot, a radial ramp is a thing of beauty.
The general public on the other hand have a unique word for such things... they call them "Eye Sores".

Jim

Post by **hepcat1989** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:51 am

Then we could just do away with CL, AWCL signoff...............?

Post by **mcelrah** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:58 am

LMAO? Would it be sufficient if the frame were metal (like on the
ramps at Pulpit) and the decking were wood? Have to get Washington
County to permit it... - Hugh

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:05 am

It might be bit expensive but you can buy composite deck boards now that are very slip resistant and (I think) very fire retardent or even maybe fire proof. Positive is that they would last forever.

This would be a BIG project and the two clubs would really have to get behind it to make it happen. County approval might be difficult.

How would you keep people from walking too far over the edge until they slid off? I wonder how the Henson's group handles that issue?

Paul

Post by **brianvh** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:16 pm

The agreement with washington county is that we can do landscaping only. Fred Permenter was able to convince folks in the club that pouring concrete was landscaping, and if I remember history correctly only one person on the county board put up a fuss after the fact. I think it was gotten away with because it made spectating easier, but I don't really know, I wasn't there.
Somehow I doubt it would be as easy with a radial ramp.

I personally like the novelty of a cliff launch. I think we've had more problems recently because people build up experience with aerotow and we stop treating them like mountain greenhorns, so they don't know to worry about the differences required in a cliff launch. It really shouldn't be a problem if we treat it with respect. I think Marc Fink was one of the few voices saying extra flight experience in aerotow did not mitigate the psychological dangers of a cliff launch. But I really like having one of the few remaining cliff launches around...if the rest disappear maybe the unique mysterious aura will keep us from taking the launch differences for granted.

Post by **huddlec** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:34 pm

I just checked the site guide page for High Rock.? It says to have wire crew in moderate to high winds, that 7 trained wire crew are necessary in high winds, that the crew should be held in with safety lines, that the pilot should be right near the edge in higher winds.? So, it looks like all the bases are covered in the guide.?Just getting people to read it is the only thing remaining....
?
I would be interested in knowing what the accident rate at Henson's is.? I can see that if people think the launch is safer, they'll up the ante on what they're willing to launch in. I've had to use wire crew at Henson's.? The Henson's launch is much further from a public road than High Rock.? I agree that getting Washington County to approve a radial ramp would be a major hurdle. And, lastly, I think a radial ramp would be a lot more hazardous for nonpilots who visit it when pilots aren't there.
Christy

brianvh <brianvanthull@yahoo.com> wrote:

The agreement with washington county is that we can do landscaping only. Fred Permenter was able to convince folks in the club that pouring concrete was landscaping, and if I remember history correctly only one person on the county board put up a fuss after the fact. I think it was gotten away with because it made spectating easier, but I don't really know, I wasn't there.
Somehow I doubt it would be as easy with a radial ramp.

I personally like the novelty of a cliff launch. I think we've had more problems recently because people build up experience with aerotow and we stop treating them like mountain greenhorns, so they don't know to worry about the differences required in a cliff launch. It really shouldn't be a problem if we treat it with respect. I think Marc Fink was one of the few voices saying extra flight experience in aerotow did not mitigate the psychological dangers of a cliff launch. But I really like having one of the few remaining cliff launches around...if the rest disappear maybe the unique mysterious aura will keep us from taking the launch differences for granted.Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149

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Post by **mcgowantk** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:12 pm

For my two cents:
?
First, the existing?launch is actually pretty easy.? Many pilots have commented that they believe that High Rock is our safest launch.? But we need to make sure pilots have adequate training before launching without an observer - which means demonstrating launching from the edge.? It is scary and difficult to get out there, and it takes some practice.? However, as it is, High Rock is a pretty safe launch now.
?
Second, remember, we have been sued and won because the ramp was considered part of the real property at that site.? We don't what a court would say if someone fell off the ramp.? It is possible we would have some liability, where we have almost no liability for accidents there now.
?
Third, in case you didn't get Rich's comment.? There was a wooden ramp, but it burned down.? We still have vandalism there, and a ramp may be subject to more of that sort of thing.
?
Fourth, I presume we will still need wire crew.? There is still a cliff out front, and pilots will be launching into a windstream that is similar to what we encounter now.?
?
All in all, I do not see the advantages and see a few disadvantages for going back to the wooden ramp launch.
?
Tom McGowan

brianvh <brianvanthull@yahoo.com> wrote:

The agreement with washington county is that we can do landscaping only. Fred Permenter was able to convince folks in the club that pouring concrete was landscaping, and if I remember history correctly only one person on the county board put up a fuss after the fact. I think it was gotten away with because it made spectating easier, but I don't really know, I wasn't there.
Somehow I doubt it would be as easy with a radial ramp.

I personally like the novelty of a cliff launch. I think we've had more problems recently because people build up experience with aerotow and we stop treating them like mountain greenhorns, so they don't know to worry about the differences required in a cliff launch. It really shouldn't be a problem if we treat it with respect. I think Marc Fink was one of the few voices saying extra flight experience in aerotow did not mitigate the psychological dangers of a cliff launch. But I really like having one of the few remaining cliff launches around...if the rest disappear maybe the unique mysterious aura will keep us from taking the launch differences for granted.Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149

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Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:25 pm

brianvh wrote:... I think Marc Fink was one of the few voices saying extra flight experience in aerotow did not mitigate the psychological dangers of a cliff launch.

Probably not--I generally steer clear of those kinds of comparisons.

marc

Post by **mcelrah** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:38 pm

I think the Treetoppers own and control access to the site. There's
a (vehicular) gate. Any wuffo who wanders in and walks off the ramp
is trespassing. - Hugh

Post by **hepcat1989** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:56 pm

This is what Matt Taber replied:

A new ramp was being discussed for the paragliding pilots at a different part of our property. Paragliding pilots were willing and wanting to contribute to a new paragliding ramp. Our members complained that they wanted a better ramp. I resisted the notion because we have learned well how to use this ramp and if you follow the rules I believe the record speaks volumes as we have very few blown launches and a whole lot of launches. Then I started considering how much wire launch and pilot skill is required to properly and safely launch. We feel that we will be able to safely and more comfortably launch in a larger range of difficult conditions with a lot less experienced launch crew with a different design. That's how the imitative got started -- we discussed it and decided to proceed with the new design. We collected about 1/4 of the needed $$ form the members and currently the money that we set aside on LMFP's end is needed in a different place -- the clubs donations for the ramp are untouched. We need to raise more funds to get it going.

Shawn