Today I experienced a lovely flight, a little 40 minute number to 3100, flown after 3 PM, when the thermals had lost some of their sharp edges. I was brave enough and smart enough not to run when other pilots came in on my tail. Once I got scared enough I let another pilot take my thermal, but I at least stayed on the outside of the circle and came back in after he got higher than I was, instead of punishing myself by marching off to another area in a huff. When it's blue, you gotta give up your pride! Actually I am just learning a bit about how to fly politely in company.
Landing was interesting with many pilots plummeting from the sky at the same moment, complicated by a small, tempting -- but ultimately unworkable -- thermal, 3-4 hundred feet over the LZ. Ah, that is what the tug plane is for; you can always try again if it is too challenging and you are in danger pushing it.
After landing, it was time to confront my third challenge for the last two weeks. The challenges were: (number 1) I had to go XC at least once, (number 2) try to get my 4, and (number 3, the one that I hadn't done) tow off my shoulders. It is amazing what a woosie I am. Worry worry worry but I was damned if I was going to put it off.
Zach and Paul explained that I couldn't jam the bar out in front of me like I do when I launch regularly; that I might pop up and stall my glider (and fall to the ground and writhe in pain and then die), but that I must allow myself to be pulled though the control frame a bit and then hold my arms rigid.
Zach kept saying, no, more forward, no, more than that, when I asked if my body was forward enough. Finally I just said, OK, I am launching. He said later my pitch was perfect but I was petrified for a couple of seconds wondering if I got it right.
The tow was uneventful but the bar pressure was lots more, and I already fly with half VG so I don't feel I can increase it. It was harder to follow the plane when I got high on it. Zach pointed out later I could just stay a little low. Actually I think it will be fine since I am strong, but it will be more difficult to tow in midday conditions, because of the bar pressure. But I sure liked the clean configuration and it is much less drag. Really so much less crap hanging off my down tube.
So Paul just told me he has 3 more goals for my next 2 weeks. COOL! It is very constructive for me to have these things to aim for.
Come see us soon.
Love
Lauren
Quest Friday, shoulder towing
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
Quest Friday, shoulder towing
Lauren,
I just read something in the USHGA mag about towing configurations and
they mentioned greater risk of a lockout when towing from the
shoulders. What do the folks down there say?
- Hugh
On 4 Mar 2005, at 19:37, Paul Tjaden wrote:
> Today I experienced a lovely flight, a little 40 minute number to
> 3100, flown after 3 PM, when the thermals had lost some of their sharp
> edges. I was brave enough and smart enough not to run when other
> pilots came in on my tail. Once I got scared enough I let another
> pilot take my thermal, but I at least stayed on the outside of the
> circle and came back in after he got higher than I was, instead of
> punishing myself by marching off to another area in a huff. When it's
> blue, you gotta give up your pride! Actually I am just learning a bit
> about how to fly politely in company.
> Landing was interesting with many pilots plummeting from the sky at
> the same moment, complicated by a small, tempting -- but ultimately
> unworkable -- thermal, 3-4 hundred feet over the LZ. Ah, that is what
> the tug plane is for; you can always try again if it is too
> challenging and you are in danger pushing it.
> After landing, it was time to confront my third challenge for the
> last two weeks. The challenges were: (number 1) I had to go XC at
> least once, (number 2) try to get my 4, and (number 3, the one that I
> hadn't done) tow off my shoulders. It is amazing what a woosie I am.
> Worry worry worry but I was damned if I was going to put it off.
> Zach and Paul explained that I couldn't jam the bar out in front of
> me like I do when I launch regularly; that I might pop up and stall my
> glider (and fall to the ground and writhe in pain and then die), but
> that I must allow myself to be pulled though the control frame a bit
> and then hold my arms rigid.
> Zach kept saying, no, more forward, no, more than that, when I asked
> if my body was forward enough. Finally I just said, OK, I am
> launching. He said later my pitch was perfect but I was petrified for
> a couple of seconds wondering if I got it right.
> The tow was uneventful but the bar pressure was lots more, and I
> already fly with half VG so I don't feel I can increase it. It was
> harder to follow the plane when I got high on it. Zach pointed out
> later I could just stay a little low. Actually I think it will be fine
> since I am strong, but it will be more difficult to tow in midday
> conditions, because of the bar pressure. But I sure liked the clean
> configuration and it is much less drag. Really so much less crap
> hanging off my down tube.
> So Paul just told me he has 3 more goals for my next 2 weeks. COOL!
> It is very constructive for me to have these things to aim for.
> Come see us soon.
> Love
> Lauren
>
>
>
>
>
I just read something in the USHGA mag about towing configurations and
they mentioned greater risk of a lockout when towing from the
shoulders. What do the folks down there say?
- Hugh
On 4 Mar 2005, at 19:37, Paul Tjaden wrote:
> Today I experienced a lovely flight, a little 40 minute number to
> 3100, flown after 3 PM, when the thermals had lost some of their sharp
> edges. I was brave enough and smart enough not to run when other
> pilots came in on my tail. Once I got scared enough I let another
> pilot take my thermal, but I at least stayed on the outside of the
> circle and came back in after he got higher than I was, instead of
> punishing myself by marching off to another area in a huff. When it's
> blue, you gotta give up your pride! Actually I am just learning a bit
> about how to fly politely in company.
> Landing was interesting with many pilots plummeting from the sky at
> the same moment, complicated by a small, tempting -- but ultimately
> unworkable -- thermal, 3-4 hundred feet over the LZ. Ah, that is what
> the tug plane is for; you can always try again if it is too
> challenging and you are in danger pushing it.
> After landing, it was time to confront my third challenge for the
> last two weeks. The challenges were: (number 1) I had to go XC at
> least once, (number 2) try to get my 4, and (number 3, the one that I
> hadn't done) tow off my shoulders. It is amazing what a woosie I am.
> Worry worry worry but I was damned if I was going to put it off.
> Zach and Paul explained that I couldn't jam the bar out in front of
> me like I do when I launch regularly; that I might pop up and stall my
> glider (and fall to the ground and writhe in pain and then die), but
> that I must allow myself to be pulled though the control frame a bit
> and then hold my arms rigid.
> Zach kept saying, no, more forward, no, more than that, when I asked
> if my body was forward enough. Finally I just said, OK, I am
> launching. He said later my pitch was perfect but I was petrified for
> a couple of seconds wondering if I got it right.
> The tow was uneventful but the bar pressure was lots more, and I
> already fly with half VG so I don't feel I can increase it. It was
> harder to follow the plane when I got high on it. Zach pointed out
> later I could just stay a little low. Actually I think it will be fine
> since I am strong, but it will be more difficult to tow in midday
> conditions, because of the bar pressure. But I sure liked the clean
> configuration and it is much less drag. Really so much less crap
> hanging off my down tube.
> So Paul just told me he has 3 more goals for my next 2 weeks. COOL!
> It is very constructive for me to have these things to aim for.
> Come see us soon.
> Love
> Lauren
>
>
>
>
>
-
Paul Tjaden
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:28 pm
Quest Friday, shoulder towing
In a message dated 3/4/2005 9:24:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mcelrah@verizon.net writes:
My understand is that since all the tow forces are on you (when towing from the shoulders), not you and your glider combined, that in a lockout it might be more difficult to recover since your?shoulders will be pulled in the direction of the plane more strongly?(someone please correct me if I am wrong, since I have limited experience with this, to say the least). Also, the bar position is further back so you have less leverage to push it back into position than if it was further ahead of you.
On the plus side, you?have less drag and less hassle in the air stowing your tow bridle.
I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout because you have a bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side) and they are much closer to your center of gravity. Reaching that handle way out to the side can be challenging in a hard turn. The bailey is right there.
I would welcome hearing more expert opinions, as well.
Lauren
I just read something in the USHGA mag about towing configurations and
they mentioned greater risk of a lockout when towing from the
shoulders.? What do the folks down there say?
My understand is that since all the tow forces are on you (when towing from the shoulders), not you and your glider combined, that in a lockout it might be more difficult to recover since your?shoulders will be pulled in the direction of the plane more strongly?(someone please correct me if I am wrong, since I have limited experience with this, to say the least). Also, the bar position is further back so you have less leverage to push it back into position than if it was further ahead of you.
On the plus side, you?have less drag and less hassle in the air stowing your tow bridle.
I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout because you have a bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side) and they are much closer to your center of gravity. Reaching that handle way out to the side can be challenging in a hard turn. The bailey is right there.
I would welcome hearing more expert opinions, as well.
Lauren
Quest Friday, shoulder towing
Hmmm... thanks for the thoughtful reply. Since I don't use a bicycle
brake handle but a loop around my palm, I have even less problem
pinning off than with a bailey (which I have for backup). That may
actually be the tie-breaker for me: right now, I can pin off without
removing my hand from its position on the base tube. Towing from the
shoulders I would have to find one of two bailey's possibly with a
gloved hand (have to look down with the chin guard of my helmet in the
way, too). Roger the hassle of retrieving the tow bridle and the drag
of the release. Decisions, decisions... - Hugh
On 5 Mar 2005, at 08:25, Tjadenhors@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/4/2005 9:24:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> mcelrah@verizon.net writes:
>
>
> :
>
> I just read something in the USHGA mag about towing configurations and
> they mentioned greater risk of a lockout when towing from the
> shoulders.? What do the folks down there say?
>
>
>
> My understand is that since all the tow forces are on you (when
> towing from the shoulders), not you and your glider combined, that in
> a lockout it might be more difficult to recover since your?shoulders
> will be pulled in the direction of the plane more strongly?(someone
> please correct me if I am wrong, since I have limited experience with
> this, to say the least). Also, the bar position is further back so you
> have less leverage to push it back into position than if it was
> further ahead of you.
> On the plus side, you?have less drag and less hassle in the air
> stowing your tow bridle.
> I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout because
> you have a bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side) and they are
> much closer to your center of gravity. Reaching that handle way out to
> the side can be challenging in a hard turn. The bailey is right there.
> I would welcome hearing more expert opinions, as well.
> Lauren
>
>
>
>
>
brake handle but a loop around my palm, I have even less problem
pinning off than with a bailey (which I have for backup). That may
actually be the tie-breaker for me: right now, I can pin off without
removing my hand from its position on the base tube. Towing from the
shoulders I would have to find one of two bailey's possibly with a
gloved hand (have to look down with the chin guard of my helmet in the
way, too). Roger the hassle of retrieving the tow bridle and the drag
of the release. Decisions, decisions... - Hugh
On 5 Mar 2005, at 08:25, Tjadenhors@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/4/2005 9:24:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> mcelrah@verizon.net writes:
>
>
> :
>
> I just read something in the USHGA mag about towing configurations and
> they mentioned greater risk of a lockout when towing from the
> shoulders.? What do the folks down there say?
>
>
>
> My understand is that since all the tow forces are on you (when
> towing from the shoulders), not you and your glider combined, that in
> a lockout it might be more difficult to recover since your?shoulders
> will be pulled in the direction of the plane more strongly?(someone
> please correct me if I am wrong, since I have limited experience with
> this, to say the least). Also, the bar position is further back so you
> have less leverage to push it back into position than if it was
> further ahead of you.
> On the plus side, you?have less drag and less hassle in the air
> stowing your tow bridle.
> I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout because
> you have a bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side) and they are
> much closer to your center of gravity. Reaching that handle way out to
> the side can be challenging in a hard turn. The bailey is right there.
> I would welcome hearing more expert opinions, as well.
> Lauren
>
>
>
>
>
Quest Friday, shoulder towing
You have the secondary release in conventional towing anyway (yes, I've
used it), and not that much more to stow, though I may be wrong. I guess
for competition you may worry about a little extra drag, but otherwise why
bother with the extra safety issues?
Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 Tjadenhors@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/4/2005 9:24:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mcelrah@=
verizon.net writes:
>
> Quote:
> I just read something in the USHGA mag about towing configurations and
> they mentioned greater risk of a lockout when towing from the
> shoulders.=A0 What do the folks down there say?
>
> (end of quote)
>
>
> My understand is that since all the tow forces are on you (when towing f=
rom the shoulders), not you and your glider combined, that in a lockout it=
might be more difficult to recover since your=A0shoulders will be pulled =
in the direction of the plane more strongly=A0(someone please correct me i=
f I am wrong, since I have limited experience with this, to say the least)=
=2E Also, the bar position is further back so you have less leverage to pu=
sh it back into position than if it was further ahead of you.
> On the plus side, you=A0have less drag and less hassle in the air stowi=
ng your tow bridle.
> I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout because you=
have a bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side) and they are much c=
loser to your center of gravity. Reaching that handle way out to the side =
can be challenging in a hard turn. The bailey is right there.
> I would welcome hearing more expert opinions, as well.
> Lauren
used it), and not that much more to stow, though I may be wrong. I guess
for competition you may worry about a little extra drag, but otherwise why
bother with the extra safety issues?
Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149
On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 Tjadenhors@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/4/2005 9:24:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mcelrah@=
verizon.net writes:
>
> Quote:
> I just read something in the USHGA mag about towing configurations and
> they mentioned greater risk of a lockout when towing from the
> shoulders.=A0 What do the folks down there say?
>
> (end of quote)
>
>
> My understand is that since all the tow forces are on you (when towing f=
rom the shoulders), not you and your glider combined, that in a lockout it=
might be more difficult to recover since your=A0shoulders will be pulled =
in the direction of the plane more strongly=A0(someone please correct me i=
f I am wrong, since I have limited experience with this, to say the least)=
=2E Also, the bar position is further back so you have less leverage to pu=
sh it back into position than if it was further ahead of you.
> On the plus side, you=A0have less drag and less hassle in the air stowi=
ng your tow bridle.
> I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout because you=
have a bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side) and they are much c=
loser to your center of gravity. Reaching that handle way out to the side =
can be challenging in a hard turn. The bailey is right there.
> I would welcome hearing more expert opinions, as well.
> Lauren
My biggest concern with the V bridle is if my Spinniker release fails and I use my secondary and the bridle gets hung up on the caribiner on the end of the tow line. Now I am being towed straight from the hang loops, or keel, with no way of releasing, in a very bad tow configuration. Not good.
I've been giving thought about going with the Pro Tow, especially with all the discussion on the OZ Report, but am concerned too about any increased lock out tendencies with this method. With the Pro Tow I may be more apt to release sooner if I get too out of wack and not try to wrestle with the situation, which may be a good thing.
I've been giving thought about going with the Pro Tow, especially with all the discussion on the OZ Report, but am concerned too about any increased lock out tendencies with this method. With the Pro Tow I may be more apt to release sooner if I get too out of wack and not try to wrestle with the situation, which may be a good thing.
Paul Adamez
There's a bit of a distinction to note here. One that is not mentioned in the USHGA article.
There are two ways to use a 3 point towing system. The top towpoint can either be on the keel or on your carabiner. The differnece between these is important.
The method described in the magazine is a keel mount. Since the tow forces act both on the CG and the glider, your gliders nose gets pulled through turns. You can also reduce pitch preassure by moving the tow point further up the keel.
Towing off the carabiner is very different in that all tow forces act on the CG. The important distinction here is that it will "feel" like towing off the keel, but it acts like towing off the shoulders.
It feels like towing off the keel because your bar position is similar and the tow force is split between you and your hang strap. This is different from keel towing since the other half of that tow force is not acting on the glider.
The comment in the magazine is that the pro tow method makes lockouts harder to correct. This is in no small part due to the tow forces in a keel tow setup are trying to pull your nose out of a lockout.
This is not true in a carabiner tow setup.
The difference between the carabiner tow and a two point shoulder tow is that the tow force is no longer split. You get it all. This changes your bar position and you feel all the tow force. This is not pitch preassure, just pulling preassure. The difference in how your glider flies is none. All tow forces are still routed through the CG.
Something of note between the keel tow and carabiner tow... in the rare event of becoming stuck on the top towpoint only (primary fails to release, secondary releases the shoulders but not the bridal), the carabiner tow will still be pulling of the CG if you're towing off the carabiner, the keel tow will be trying to tumble you.
In the end, it's all a matter of tradeoffs. None of the systems are failsafe and each has its stronger and weaker points.
$.02USD
Jim
There are two ways to use a 3 point towing system. The top towpoint can either be on the keel or on your carabiner. The differnece between these is important.
The method described in the magazine is a keel mount. Since the tow forces act both on the CG and the glider, your gliders nose gets pulled through turns. You can also reduce pitch preassure by moving the tow point further up the keel.
Towing off the carabiner is very different in that all tow forces act on the CG. The important distinction here is that it will "feel" like towing off the keel, but it acts like towing off the shoulders.
It feels like towing off the keel because your bar position is similar and the tow force is split between you and your hang strap. This is different from keel towing since the other half of that tow force is not acting on the glider.
The comment in the magazine is that the pro tow method makes lockouts harder to correct. This is in no small part due to the tow forces in a keel tow setup are trying to pull your nose out of a lockout.
This is not true in a carabiner tow setup.
The difference between the carabiner tow and a two point shoulder tow is that the tow force is no longer split. You get it all. This changes your bar position and you feel all the tow force. This is not pitch preassure, just pulling preassure. The difference in how your glider flies is none. All tow forces are still routed through the CG.
Something of note between the keel tow and carabiner tow... in the rare event of becoming stuck on the top towpoint only (primary fails to release, secondary releases the shoulders but not the bridal), the carabiner tow will still be pulling of the CG if you're towing off the carabiner, the keel tow will be trying to tumble you.
In the end, it's all a matter of tradeoffs. None of the systems are failsafe and each has its stronger and weaker points.
$.02USD
Jim