Sunday training hill stuff

Richard Hays · Post by **Richard Hays** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:47 am

Saturday blew out at one of my sites north of the shop, but Sunday was
"sweet" and we headed off to Hardy Hill up in Belair which.......may
undergo a name change soon. Its seems more appropriate to call it Bovine
Hill or South Pie Hill. My god.......the place was a virtual sea of cow
crap. Yuck. Good incentive for stand up landings.

However; the day was awesome. The overcast skies kept the south air from
being weird and we flew all day. Glen Hardy took delivery on his new Falcon
225 and Yanni struggled with his bad purchase of a used* Eagle 180 ( he's to
heavy on it...didn't listen to my advice and bought it anyway ). That said,
everyone but Yanni had fun. New student Rusty did extremely well for a
first day'er and was flying from atop the hill by days' end. His experience
as a white water kayaker definately showed on the "grace under pressure"
meter. He was quite relaxed flying the Falcon 170.

Glen Hardy did really well and is most definately ready for Bills Hill, or
the Sac, etc. He has his H-2 rating now, glider and harness and is ready to
go. Any Observers' interested in sponsoring him should contact me for a
quick review of his abilities...strengths and weaknesses. He's also usually
available for weekday flying too.

* Yanni purchased an Eagle 180 from some guy in Utah against my protests and
advice. Although he lucked out and it arrived in mint condition; he's really
too heavy on it and the thing just won't fly well for him. Light air flights
were very scary. He learned a hard lesson on Sunday. Just because a glider
says that the "maximum" weight range is this or that, it doesn't mean its'
going to fly well at the top of the weight range. And...with his green H-2
experience level, it is not the glider he should be flying. He should be on
a Falcon 225. Word to the wise; please listen to folks more experienced than
you and try and get your weight as close to the manufacturers' recommended
"sweet spot". Not just the overall HGMA min/max range. You'll be happier
and safer if you do so.

That said........if anyone would be interested in swapping him his Eagle 180
for a Falcon 225, you might be able to do so. Contact me please. It would
be a god-send for him.

The day ended at sunset. Good time had by all. Great training season so far
!

mikel · Post by **mikel** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:07 am

Hey Rich, Sorry, I missed out this weekend.....
talk to you about later .....
Thanks for the good advice.....

Later, M

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:37 am

Interesting about your student, Yanni. I've been working my way back into flex wings after flying my rigid wing for?many months. It's kind of?weird,?you can transition to a rigid wing pretty easily but when you go back to flex you can get into trouble if you don't approach it slowly and with caution. Started back by flying the Target 180 which is a bit small for my 230 hook in weight but it flew and landed great for me (It's also the glider that I did my first solo on 4 1/2 years ago). The next logical step was to fly a solid intermediate wing and the only one available was a mid-size Discuss (147 I think). I was technically 10 pounds over max pilot weight but Kevin assured me that it would fly fine. I thought my weight would affect the handling adversely and/or make landing speed extremely high but once again it flew great and landed perfectly. Yesterday I finally got back into the glider I was aiming for, a 14 meter Laminar MR 700. Everything went well in the calm evening air so I should be back in the saddle in another couple of flights.
?
Is Yanni having trouble getting the glider to?launch in light?air due to heavy wing loading or is it just a bit more difficult to fly because of the double surface wing? Of course, I was towing so running extra fast down a hill was not an issue.
?
Paul

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:40 am

Hey Rich, how much does Yanni weigh?

I weigh 225 and fly an Eagle 180, and it seems to be fine for me. But then Yanni might weigh more...and I'm still a newbie with little basis for comparison. (Maybe I should be on a Sport 2 175?)

Scott

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:42 am

Scott wrote:Hey Rich, how much does Yanni weigh? I weigh 225 and fly an Eagle 180, and it seems to be fine for me. But then Yanni might weigh more...and I'm still a newbie with little basis for comparison. (Maybe I should be on a Sport 2 175?)

Scott

I'm burning to know if anyone's done a Tandem on the Sport 2 175 yet!

marc

heaviek · Post by **heaviek** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:39 pm

Small gliders can be tough to foot launch. Not a beginner skill. I've
gotten surprised by that myself before.

Kev

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tjadenhors@aol.com [mailto:Tjadenhors@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 9:38 AM
> To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> Subject: Re: Sunday training hill stuff
>
>
> Interesting about your student, Yanni. I've been working my way back into
> flex wings after flying my rigid wing for?many months. It's kind
> of?weird,?you can transition to a rigid wing pretty easily but when you
> go back to flex you can get into trouble if you don't approach it slowly
> and with caution. Started back by flying the Target 180 which is a bit
> small for my 230 hook in weight but it flew and landed great for me (It's
> also the glider that I did my first solo on 4 1/2 years ago). The next
> logical step was to fly a solid intermediate wing and the only one
> available was a mid-size Discuss (147 I think). I was technically 10
> pounds over max pilot weight but Kevin assured me that it would fly fine.
> I thought my weight would affect the handling adversely and/or make
> landing speed extremely high but once again it flew great and landed
> perfectly. Yesterday I finally got back into the glider I was aiming for,
> a 14 meter Laminar MR 700. Everything went well in the calm evening air
> so I should be back in the saddle in another couple of flights.
>
> Is Yanni having trouble getting the glider to?launch in light?air due to
> heavy wing loading or is it just a bit more difficult to fly because of
> the double surface wing? Of course, I was towing so running extra fast
> down a hill was not an issue.
>
> Paul

heaviek · Post by **heaviek** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:40 pm

You are burning to know......and I am burning to TRY!!!

Kev

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Flying Lobster [mailto:in_a_cloud@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:43 AM
> To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> Subject: Sunday training hill stuff
>
>
>
> Scott wrote:
> Hey Rich, how much does Yanni weigh? [Shocked] I weigh 225 and fly an
> Eagle 180, and it seems to be fine for me. But then Yanni might weigh
> more...and I'm still a newbie with little basis for comparison. (Maybe I
> should be on a Sport 2 175?)
>
> Scott
> (end of quote)
>
>
> I'm burning to know if anyone's done a Tandem on the Sport 2 175 yet!

>

>
> marcNeo-ConGanja-BushMan

Spark · Post by **Spark** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:15 pm

heaviek wrote:You are burning to know......and I am burning to TRY!!!

Kev

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Flying Lobster [mailto:in_a_cloud@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:43 AM
> To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> Subject: Sunday training hill stuff
>
> I'm burning to know if anyone's done a Tandem on the Sport 2 175 yet!
>
>
> marcNeo-ConGanja-BushMan

Let us know how it goes, Kevin. Will you have one to try it with soon?

I'm betting it can't carry weight or land as well as the Falcon II Tandem.

'Spark

heaviek · Post by **heaviek** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:09 pm

Pappa Rob says the big S2 might be good for light duty tandems....ie me and
my GF but not commercial stuff. We will try it in the spring between meets
or maybe before'/after Australia

It will be interesting.

I have only foot landed the F2 tandem a hand full of times and I need to
nail the beginning of the window better. It is not as easy for me as
landing solo.

Kev C

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Spark [mailto:BagPipeFlyer@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 1:16 PM
> To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> Subject: Sunday training hill stuff
>
>
>
> heaviek wrote:
> You are burning to know......and I am burning to TRY!!!
>
> Kev
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Flying Lobster [mailto:in_a_cloud@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:43 AM
> > To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> > Subject: Sunday training hill stuff
> >
> > I'm burning to know if anyone's done a Tandem on the Sport 2 175 yet!

> >

> >
> > marcNeo-ConGanja-BushMan
> (end of quote)
>
>
> Let us know how it goes, Kevin. Will you have one to try it with soon?
>
> I'm betting it can't carry weight or land as well as the Falcon II Tandem.
>
> 'Spark

Richard Hays · Post by **Richard Hays** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:43 pm

The students' hook in weight on the 180 is somewhere in excess of 250 lbs.
He claims' he's about 250. Add weight for clothing and light training gear
and you have a hook-in weight of about 260. Now.....if he had a pod and
chute and glider bag and all that, he'd be seriously maxing out the wing.

I should know. I used to have an Eagle 180. And...lard-ass that I am; got
too heavy for it, hooking in at about 285. At that weight, it did not fly
well at all in light air. When conditions were kicking, it was ok. But the
landings were still hot and the forget dead air performance. Regretably I
had to sell it and opt for the Falcon 2 225 which......is a sweetie-pie at
my hook in weight.

Ironically, about 7 some odd years ago I had an Eagle 164 demo. I was much,
much lighter then
( around 225 hook in ) and the 164 flew fine loaded up. But the 180 did
not, in my opinion. I think the 180 needs to be flown moreso in the sweet
spot range indicated by the manufacturer.

Interestingly, Yanni's first flight was in about a 7mph wind and the glider
performed ok. Launch looked fine, as did the flight and the landing was fast
but not seemingly excessively so. However; when he attempted the other
flights in winds at of about 3mph, the glider sunk out excessively and
landings ended up as pancake style landings. I at first thought that he was
overspeeding the wing in flight, but as far as I could judge, he was at
"trim" and not pulling in excessively...or at all. The wing almost sounded
as if it was "zooming" as it went by. I kept telling him to allow the
glider to go to trim and he did, but it did not change the attitude and/or
the performance of the wing.

This is essentially the same experience I had flying a Falcon 170 from
Smithsburg one time. Although the top of the weight range of the Falcon 170
claims to be somewhere around 230, and at the time I flew it I was probably
about the same, it "flew" but "zoomed" and requried a mightly heave ho at
the end to facilitate a flare.

Last year and the year before, I flew the Falcon 2 195 very loaded up and
did not notice alot of performance deterioration. Fast landings-yes, but
negotiable. And...in air performance was good.

In retrospect, I think that some designs and in particular their inter-model
size can vary in performance greatly. As always.......fly before you buy.
And listent to your instructor! LOL.

Rich Hays

Post script: This presents an interesting dilema for me as the instructor.
One side of me says I should not continue to train this guy on this glider.
The other side of me says that I should carefully work with him on it,
cherry picking conditions that will work for him and hopefully avoiding him
from trying to go it alone and or get hurt in the process. Or getting
frustrated and quitting altogether. He's a wonderful guy and ever so
enthusiastic about the sport. What say the masses ?
( should be good for days worth of viewpoints and opinions. LOL ).

>From: "Kevin" <heaviek@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: RE: Sunday training hill stuff
>Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:41:06 -0500
>
>You are burning to know......and I am burning to TRY!!!
>
>Kev
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Flying Lobster [mailto:in_a_cloud@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:43 AM
> > To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> > Subject: Sunday training hill stuff
> >
> >
> >
> > Scott wrote:
> > Hey Rich, how much does Yanni weigh? [Shocked] I weigh 225 and fly an
> > Eagle 180, and it seems to be fine for me. But then Yanni might weigh
> > more...and I'm still a newbie with little basis for comparison. (Maybe I
> > should be on a Sport 2 175?)
> >
> > Scott
> > (end of quote)
> >
> >
> > I'm burning to know if anyone's done a Tandem on the Sport 2 175 yet!

> >

> >
> > marcNeo-ConGanja-BushMan
>
>
>
>

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:53 pm

Spark wrote:
heaviek wrote:You are burning to know......and I am burning to TRY!!!

Kev

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Flying Lobster [mailto:in_a_cloud@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:43 AM
> To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> Subject: Sunday training hill stuff
>
> I'm burning to know if anyone's done a Tandem on the Sport 2 175 yet!
>
>
> marcNeo-ConGanja-BushMan
Let us know how it goes, Kevin. Will you have one to try it with soon?

I'm betting it can't carry weight or land as well as the Falcon II Tandem.

'Spark

That's not saying a whole lot since the F2tandem could probably launch, fly and land with a 400 lb sack of coal at the controls!

But with a max recommended weight range of something around 320 it is nice to fantasize about an S2 175 tandem--tandem WITH a nice sink rate!

marc

Post by **hepcat1989** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:30 pm

Richard, I say let him fly it being, that he is under your eye.1- Give him a reason to shed some weight(I don't know how much or whatever) 2-It will spell out to him what you meant- learning lesson if he takes up the sport.3- After he gets the shits of it, He should be able to swap that eagle out. I don't know, let him mess with it and come up with his own determination after you let him fly YOUR 225! Heh Heh.
Peace, Shawn.

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:21 pm

In a message dated 11/28/2005 2:45:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mshgflyer@hotmail.com writes:

Rich Hays

Post script:? This presents an interesting dilema for me as the instructor.
One side of me says I should not continue to train this guy on this glider.
The other side of me says that I should carefully work with him on it,
cherry picking conditions that will work for him and hopefully avoiding him
from trying to go it alone and or get hurt in the process. Or getting
frustrated and quitting altogether.? He's a wonderful guy and ever so
enthusiastic about the sport.?? What say the masses ?
( should be good for days worth of viewpoints and opinions. LOL ).

First, let me apologize to my old friend Rich for doubting his wisdom regarding the suitability of the 180 Eagle for his student, Yanni. 260 pounds plus sounds like a pretty big load for 180 square feet of wing no matter HOW efficient the wing is. I'll not presume to tell you how to handle your dilemma but it seems that it might not be safe?for Yanni to launch this wing for a high flight so he better try to trade it soon. Or maybe?he can loose some of those pounds dragging his butt up that training hill.
?
Paul?