Sat at Highland

[breezyk1d]

Did my weekend "drag the harness through the dirt trick" again several times at Highland on Sat, in my attempts to learn to land my S2 on my feet.

Thank goodness Danny test flew my Sport2 and informed me that a big part of my problem was that my hang point was too far back. The previous test flight pilot was not in my weight range and didn't need the hang point shifted for it to fly/flare well.

So maybe, just maybe, I will be able to translate my falcon landing skills to my Sport2 landing skills! And I won't feel like such a doofus!

A big crowd turned out for the last flyable day of the Ridgely season. Fabulous weather, minimal lift, but pilots' spirits were high and an impromptu party ensued at the end of the day. Some spirits thermalled higher than others at the party - 'nuff said.

[rancerupp]

Who would sell you a glider and not make sure it was properly set up for you? Having a hang point too far back could be a SERIOUS issue for a less experienced pilot. Was this an out of town purchase? I'm glad you found & fixed the problem.

[breezyk1d]

Rance;
Yes, I bought the glider second hand, from out of town. And it WAS
theoretically set up for me, it came with hang point located at the
factory supplied neutral position. But since I am in the high end of
the range of the hook in-weight for the 135, and since I have been
having difficulty landing on me feet due to flare timing that I cannot
seem to get right, it is a possibility that adjusting the hang point
forward will assist in alleviating that problem. I realize that it may
not fix my flaring issues, and it may add its own different avionic
response issues. But there is certainly no issue of impropriety
anywhere in this - just the issue of someone who is still a novice at
all things which vary from my old baggy falcon, and who needs to test
various scenarios to help me or my glider adjust. It may be that I am
never comfortable with the higher wing loading aspect of my hook-in on
the 135 and will need to move to a 155. I hope to pin down the issues
and make the best arrangements for my flying safety and comfort.

Hope to be soaring with you soon! - Linda











-----Original Message-----
From: rancerupp [mailto:rupps@truevine.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 9:24 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Sat at Highland


Who would sell you a glider and not make sure it was properly set up for
you? Having a hang point too far back could be a SERIOUS issue for a
less experienced pilot. Was this an out of town purchase? I'm glad you
found & fixed the problem.

[XCanytime]

Don't forget about the pluses that come from a high wing loading:? better performance in a headwind and sink, which you literally face on just about every flight.? The landings will come with practice, practice, practice.

???????????????????????????????????????????????? Bacil

[Flying Lobster]

[quote="rancerupp"]Who would sell you a glider and not make sure it was properly set up for you? Having a hang point too far back could be a SERIOUS issue for a less experienced pilot. Was this an out of town purchase? I'm glad you found & fixed the problem.[/quote]

I would, and did.

Glider trim is largely a matter of personal preferrence--no hard and fast rules. On a vg glider, the bar pressure is not necessarily going to feel the same full on as full off (though in my opinion the Sport 2--all sizes--keeps a healthy bar pressure at all settings).

Factors such as body position, harness type, harness adjustments etc. can also have a significant effect on flare/landing effectiveness.

marc

[breezyk1d]

[Bacil] "better performance in a headwind and sink"


Bacil; everything I've read leads me to believe that a higher wing loading does not gain me better performance in a headwind and sink - instead it means I will glide faster and sink faster proportionally, than someone on a wing which is not as heavily loaded, all other things being equal.

But then, I may be mis-interpreting what you mean, like, since speeding up through sink is a good thing to assist with getting out of it, then a heavier wing loading might be preferable?

Fretful, difficult day at the office, and at home, and to and from in the commute. Don't mean to pick. Probably shouldn't even attempt to make sure I understand everything somedays....

I have not forgotten the wing loading information in the Pagin book - particularly as I have so recently digested the info. As a matter of fact, I chose to go with the heavier wing loading over being perhaps more neutrally or lightly wing loaded on a 155 because I did not wish to have ground handling or foot launch or landing issues with I would expect with the larger frame and the possible lack of input authority.

Now I just have to work out the kinks for getting my landings in order. And I believe it is possible for me to accomplish that! Indeed, hopefully even sometime this year! Do they give club awards for the consistently worst landings? I'm sure I should win. Maybe I should just shed 20 pounds or so? But then I would have to give up my decadent lifestyle!

Cheers, Linda

[breezyk1d]

Upon reflection and some sleep Bacil, I believe you were referring to "sink" the condition rather than "sink" the rate, which now makes sense to me. Coffee helps. - Linda

[XCanytime]

Yes, that's correct.? In Pagen's old book Hang Gliding Techniques he shows two polars for the same glider, one being a light wing loading, and the other being a heavy wing loading.? It is evident from the polar that the heavy wing loading gets better performance in a headwind and sink(ing air).? Also, a heavy wing loading doesn't get juked around in sporty air as much as a lighter wing loading.? The glider has more dihedral if a heavier pilot is hanging from the CG, translating to more stability in roll.? Makes sense if you pull down on the keel more.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? Bacil

[heaviek]

Rance, that is a pretty steep request expecting a glider to be that perfect
for the subtle nuances of a particular pilot. The flare window on those
wings is huge and I am sure it was just trimmed at the slower end. Pilots
who rely on trim speed to indicate flare timing sometimes need a wing that
is trimmed faster then someone who prefers to trim it for no pushing out in
thermals. Its pilot preference and both can EASILY be landed safely.

A slow trim speed is really only a big issue if it is trimmed at stall.
Even that should slip by most pilots because who is flying anywhere less
then pulled in hard when performing an approach or takeoff?

The (slightly) smaller wing lands a little faster and faster still then the
falcon. Seems as though many developing pilots can't help but fixate on
ground speed and trim feel when trying to time their flare. The fear and
speed makes them late. By trimming the glider faster she is rigging up a
crutch, albeit a good one, to compensate for a lag in response. Fear of
landing => apprehension flaring => late flares. Trim it faster, make the
cues more obvious and earlier, BAM----you are nailing your landings. Keep
striving for perfection girl!

Linda, don't get too hung up on the wing loading, sizing, yadda yadda of
everything. It is a hang glider, they all pretty much fly and land the
same. Psyche yourself up, not out. I flew that itty bitty thing myself and
it landed mega docile. If you are missing flares you could probably shift
your flare timing MANY seconds earlier and still be fine.

There is no shame in working with an instructor after hang 2. Hang 2 isn't
really a gradation from school. Higher education is respected in our
society so it should be in our flying community as well. My best student
ever was a H-4 .

Kev C

Kev

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rancerupp [mailto:rupps@truevine.net]
> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 9:24 PM
> To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> Subject: Sat at Highland
>
>
> Who would sell you a glider and not make sure it was properly set up for
> you? Having a hang point too far back could be a SERIOUS issue for a less
> experienced pilot. Was this an out of town purchase? I'm glad you found &
> fixed the problem.

[Flying Lobster]

Actually, the glider is trimmed in the middle of the three available settings (at least that's the way it was when I delivered it) and at my hook-in at 215 it flew and landed very well. The only real consequence of being at the top end of the weight range is that your incipient stall may start occuring a little sooner than it would if you were in the middle or lower end of the weight range. This means you can't push out as far AND fly at as slow an airspeed as you can on a boaty Falcon.

If you are accustomed to landing a glider by simply pushing out and letting it slow down to eventually settle nicely on your shoulders--might work on a Falcon, but ain't going to happen on a higher performing glider.

Since Rance's post hints that I improperly endangered Linda, I can assure him that I thoroughly explained all the wing loading issues and made her promise she would thoroughly read the owner's manual before trying the glider out. Still, I am reluctant to sell a glider to someone outside my area--and I have even attempted to buy the glider back, despite the fact that it has been used for a month of landing practice and test flights by multiple pilots. Despite the "every pilot is responsible for their own safety" golden rule, I'm deeply concerned about everyone's safety, especially that of my students and customers.

marc

[breezyk1d]

Kevin;

"Fear of landing => apprehension flaring => late flares"

describes it in a nutshell. I just do NOT want to shoot 15 feet up in the air, and have had trouble getting the timing down for an earlier flare, in part because of my fear of popping up too high.

"Trim it faster, make the cues more obvious and earlier, BAM----you are nailing your landings"

Yes, that is precisely what I would like!

"don't get too hung up on the wing loading, sizing, yadda yadda of everything. It is a hang glider, they all pretty much fly and land the same. Psyche yourself up, not out. I flew that itty bitty thing myself and it landed mega docile. If you are missing flares you could probably shift your flare timing MANY seconds earlier and still be fine."

You don't know how GLAD I am to hear the above assessment!

Thank you for your extremely encouraging comments.

And I have NO problems being an eternal student of life, love, and hang gliding! -Linda

[breezyk1d]

"Since Rance's post hints that I improperly endangered Linda, I can assure him that I thoroughly explained all the wing loading issues and made her promise she would thoroughly read the owner's manual before trying the glider out. Still, I am reluctant to sell a glider to someone outside my area--and I have even attempted to buy the glider back, despite the fact that it has been used for a month of landing practice and test flights by multiple pilots. Despite the "every pilot is responsible for their own safety" golden rule, I'm deeply concerned about everyone's safety, especially that of my students and customers. "

All of the above is not only completely accurate, but Marc has stayed in touch with me since selling me the glider, and has been discussing my landing difficulties with me since I started flying the glider.

I will be the first to point out that there are cons (along with lots of great pros) associated with adopting my approach to: flying instruction, glider dealers, observers, and flight parks utilization. Rather than sticking with one source for any of these, I have gone wide rather than deep, and learned from, purchased from, flown at, and picked the brains of, all within my reach. I might have purchased a Sport 2 locally if I had been able to purchase one second hand locally, but such was not the case.

I am cognizant of, and accept the limitations of my particular approach, so no one should presume that I am a victim of my circumstances. I am quite confident that I will get things worked out, and am only slow and cautious about doing so (could that be LINDA she is referring to???!!??!!) YUP! - Linda

[rancerupp]

Kev, I agree about subtle nuances but I was taking into consideration that this was not an extreemely experienced pilot (no offense intended Linda).

marc, There's many factors that comprise the entire situation. Yes, the final responsibility is the pilot's, always. If a particular pilot had not had experience with very many gliders, then I would think that said pilot would either get another more experienced pilot of a similar weight to test fly it or to get a local instructor to assist in initial test flights doing hands-on help beginning with the first flight.

Given Linda's concert for safety, I'm sure she took appropriate precautions.

Rance