Noose around the white house?

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:02 am

No Marco, your predictions ARE ridiculous! You predicted a neat little campaign in Iraq that would be wrapped up and over with in weeks. You predicted minimum US casualties. You predicted free-flowing oil and dropping prices. You predicted a happy Iraqi population that would welcome democracy with open arms.

NONE of this has come to pass! None! Zero! Nada!

Like the administration, you believe EXPLICITLY that it is OK, ACCEPTABLE to lie and mislead the American public! Why else would you and Dave IGNORE that the TOP-LEVELS of the administration DELIBERATELY lied to a judicial grand jury?

The real tragedy of all this is how pervasive the idea that its OK to mislead the American public is in government. THAT INCLUDES ALL GOVERNMENT--REBUBLICANS-DEMOCRATS--WHOEVER!!

Marco, you live in a Pollyanna world that constantly seeks to tow the party line, everything these guys do is OK--BECAUSE CLINTON DID IT! Sorry, but this is just a load of crap.

I feel no joy or vindication over the on-going investigation and indictments. The result will be a further marginalization of an administration that was pretty inept even when operating under full power and unfettered. This further hurts our country's reputation worldwide. It deepens wounds and divisions between the parties. Even the republican party itself is showing signs of deep division and damage. I wish that none of this had ever happened--but it has.

I've said it before--you get what you pay for. I blame the American people for the policies of this administration. We are the ones that have become so detached from the electoral process that we allow mediocre leaders to lead the most powerful nation on earth.

Republicans--Democrats--we are all guilty in this respect. Shame on us all!

Become engaged--study the issues, and inform yourself without falling victim to insipid and cynical garbage that the party leadership spin-machines spew forth! Otherwise, we might as well have a royal kingdom ruled by the CEO's of Exxon or Halliburton.

marcoIdidn'tDoIt

Post by **mcelrah** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:41 pm

CIA told the White House that there was no substance to the Niger
yellowcake story (this was a simple professional statement of the
truth and not a political act), but they went ahead and used it in
the State of the Union speech anyway. So Wilson went public. So
they went after Wilson and his wife and got their peckers in the
sausage machine. Hurray!

Marco, you are a terrible jailhouse lawyer: lying under oath ABOUT
THE TIME OF DAY is a crime, period. They got Al Capone for tax
evasion. Watergate, Monica-gate, Plame-gate: it always works out
that trying to cover up is what actually gets you in trouble.

Power corrupts, which is why I have always been against term limits:
give 'em life without parole! - Hugh

Marco Zee · Post by **Marco Zee** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:47 pm

Hugh.

Check out the Senate Select Committee's analysis of Joe Wilson's Niger trip.

Here's one of the quotes: "The former Ambassador, either by design or through ignorance, gave the American people and, for that matter, the world a version of events that was inaccurate, unsubstantiated, and misleading."

Here's the link: http://roberts.senate.gov/07-09a-2004.htm

Marco Zee · Post by **Marco Zee** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:07 pm

And with regards to the infamous 16 words in the SOTU speech, Bush said "the British Government believes that Iraq was attempting to procure yellow cake uranium from Africa" ....a statement which the British Government insists to this day is accurate, and continues to stand by. George Tenet, the then CIA Director, signed off on this sentence in the speech. So Bush used it.

Wilson's 1 week visit to Niger, for which there was NEVER a written report, did not prove or disprove the above quote, which remains completely true, ie the British Govt believed then, and still believes today that Saddam was attempting to buy yellowcake uranium.

Wilson, not a formal CIA operative or employee, brought scrutiny on himself by "going public" with his opposition to the war, not something that is done routinely by spouses of covert agents, especially agents that send their spouses on international fact finding missions for the CIA.

Marco

Marco Zee · Post by **Marco Zee** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:29 pm

Hey all, I found this on the Web. Brooks writes for the NY Times:

http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/dat ... flash6.htm

BROOKS: WHY ARE DEMS SO OVERHEATED?

Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald did not find evidence to prove that there was a "broad conspiracy to out a covert agent for political gain. He did not find evidence of wide-ranging criminal behavior. .... "The Paranoid Style in American Politics." ....

Hofstadter argued that sometimes people who are dispossessed, who feel their country has been taken away from them and their kind, develop an angry, suspicious and conspiratorial frame of mind. It is never enough to believe their opponents have committed honest mistakes or have legitimate purposes; they insist on believing in malicious conspiracies.

"The paranoid spokesman," Hofstadter wrote, "sees the fate of conspiracy in apocalyptic terms -- he traffics in the birth and death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization." Because his opponents are so evil, the conspiracy monger is never content with anything but their total destruction."

Post by **mcelrah** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:06 am

The CIA thought the Italian Niger/yellowcake report was fishy all
along. Tenet was guilty of sycophancy and worse if he went against
his own professional analysts in passing on the "16 words". The
story I heard (about the Powell UN speech) was that CIA was only
given very short time to respond to drafts of the speech and was
primarily trying to protect sources and methods. The policy guys
made clear that comments on substance were unwelcome. So the
administration (Tenet, Libby, Rove, Cheney, Bush) weasel-worded a
deliberately misleading formulation of the yellowcake fairy tale
which they knew to be false - in other words: they lied. And
thereby misled Congress and the nation on a matter of importance
involving commitment of troops and national treasure. I call THAT a
high crime and misdemeanor. - Hugh

Post by **mcelrah** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:07 pm

It ain't a SSCI report - it's a Senator Pat Roberts (with Orrin Hatch
- the doofus who spilled the beans on the fact we were listening to
Osama's cell phone) press release complaining that the Democrat
members of the committee wouldn't countenance putting this Republican
damage control material in the committee report. Not that the actual
SSCI report is any jewel - colleagues who had to live through
providing testimony for that report didn't have much respect for the
motivation or analytic acumen of the staffers who wrote it. There
are two issues here: (1) the intel community got it wrong, and (2)
Libby and company cherry-picked the intel to support their preferred
course of action - and Tenet abdicated his responsibility to keep the
policymakers honest. - Hugh

Marco Zee · Post by **Marco Zee** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:35 am

Where did this uranium come from??? Africa? Niger?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 872201.stm

Post by **mcelrah** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:24 am

Sounds like this was reactor fuel, not "highly-enriched" such as is
required for a bomb. Iraq had run (before Desert Storm) a two-track
program, wherein most activity was legal, monitored by IAEA, but then
they were looking for alternative, under-the-table sources for
fissile material that they could then enrich to bomb grade, again in
secret. The Rove/Libby/Wilson/Plame brouhaha came about because the
administration was looking for evidence of the revived second track
to bolster the case for war, trying to do its own intel work instead
of accepting the professional judgment of CIA analysts. CIA is
guilty of error in accepting "evidence" from exiles who were also
motivated to instigate a war that led to a conclusion that Iraq
"probably" still had chemical and biological materials (which also
turned out to be wrong). (Hence the need to go in early spring,
before it got too hot to wear the rubber suits.) Nuke programs have a
bigger signature, so CIA was able to conclude that the Iraqi program
was still shut down, but Cheney/Libby didn't like that answer, 'cause
they needed to Paul Revere Iraqi nukes to stampede everyone into the
war. - Hugh

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:01 am

[quote="Marco Zee"]Where did this uranium come from??? Africa? Niger?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 872201.stm[/quote]

Good point. Time to declare war on and invade the entire world just to be on the safe side.

marc

Marco Zee · Post by **Marco Zee** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:27 pm

Insightful article about Wilson and the CIA attempted "coup"

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commen ... 05_CF.html

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:47 pm

[quote="Marco Zee"]Insightful article about Wilson and the CIA attempted "coup"

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commen ... 05_CF.html[/quote]

Yup--insightful reading on par with Ken Kesey's magic coolaid acid test.

I wish I could make up stuff like that.

marc

Spark · Post by **Spark** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:56 pm

[quote="Flying Lobster...Ken Kesey's magic coolaid acid test.
.... marc[/quote]
Merry Pranksters R Us

Post by **mcelrah** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:34 pm

Ugh! "Insightful"? No wonder your mind is warped.

The CIA is not supposed to support administration policy. It is
supposed to develop non-partisan intelligence. It is indeed highly
irregular that Wilson went public, but it was also highly irregular
that Libby and company kept putting the Niger canard back in Bush's
and Powell's speeches every time the CIA crossed it out. (This
doesn't mean the CIA was perfect: they still thought there were bugs
and gas in Iraq - but they were clear that there weren't any nukes,
even though the administration kept wanting there to be - nor was
there ever a shred of credible evidence that Saddam had anything to
do with terrorists.) Whether he's grandstanding or not, I'm glad
Wilson blew the whistle on them. - Hugh

Post by **mcelrah** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:47 pm

Marco, you realize this "Commentary" is nothing but propaganda,
right? No pretense of balanced journalism here... - Hugh

Post by **mcelrah** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:55 pm

Oh, no, Allen, not you, too! What was that about NPR's political
commentary being liberal? The only political commentator I can think
of is Daniel Shore on Weekend Edition, and, yes, he is liberal - and
I have gotten so infuriated with his old-womanish pronouncements that
I have yelled at the dashboard and turned off the radio. But
otherwise, NPR is nothing but thorough non-partisan journalism, which
you can't find anywhere else in broadcasting (the commercial networks
may be non-partisan, but they're not thorough - more like a headline
service). - Hugh

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:21 am

Its obvious the left, controlled by Clintinoids who are spiking the world's water supply with mind-control LSD, are influencing public opinion everywhere. How else can you explain the current popular sentiment against the prez and his policies? What's interesting is how the Clintonoid left has succeeded in infiltrating foreign countries (like Argentina) and succeeded in implementing their mind-control procedures.

I'm waiting for the Fox made-for-TV movie on Sunday "Invasion of the Clintinoid Mind Snatchers."

marcSeeingPatternsEverywhere

Marco Zee · Post by **Marco Zee** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:35 am

Victoria Tensing, who wrote the law about "outing" an agent, claims that the CIA should be investigated about Plamegate.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007508

I couldn't agree more.

Marco

Post by **mcelrah** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:45 am

Tensing is a lawyer and professional talking head, not an
intelligence officer. It is common to send non-employees on
intelligence collection missions. And they don't have to sign NDAs
(non-disclosure agreements). Or submit written reports. Normally,
the source (Wilson) is debriefed by an officer (Plame or other), who
writes the report. And individual intel reports are not normally
provided to consumers (Cheney) but rather incorporated into finished
intelligence reports with evaluation, analysis and judgment added -
this was assuredly supplied to Cheney/Libby/Bush - but they didn't
like what they got, so they kept using the Niger fairy tale. As a
retired foreign service officer of ambassadorial rank, Wilson had
access that his wife would not have had. Tensing's thesis seems to
be that by going public, Wilson/Plame/CIA deserved whatever illegal
tactics Cheney/Libby might choose to employ. Now I agree that Libby
& company may not have had it in the front of their minds that Plame
was undercover (they were mostly just spreading the nepotism story),
but clearly Libby had a bad conscience about it, 'cause he lied to
investigators. So now he is caught in the prosecutorial maelstrom.
Good. Cheney is clearly a politician who has succumbed to
megalomania and become a menace to the republic a la Joe McCarthy.
Anything that checks his power is to be applauded. - Hugh
P.S. It IS remarkable that Plame recommended Wilson for the job, but
she didn't do it on her own - her superiors had to approve it - and
it's not as if CIA has a deep bench of people to send. The fact that
they are married is not automatically unethical - what profit was
there in it? West Africa is not my idea of a vacation spot. Think
of all the shots you have to get. As W.C. Fields said: "First
prize: an all-expenses-paid one week trip to Cleveland; second,
prize, TWO weeks in Cleveland..."

Marco Zee · Post by **Marco Zee** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:34 am

Hugh,
You can try to sugarcoat and attempt to justify all of Wilson actions as much as you want, but his entire trip, actions, and statements wreak of BS from start to finish and any fair minded, unbiased person knows that. He's a political hack who is hiding behind his wife's CIA skirt for protection. I don't understand why he wasn't forced to testify before Fitz's grand jury, as he was a central figure in this entire story. I guarantee he'll be first on the witness list in the Libby trial, if Bush doesn't pardon Libby during the Christmas holiday.
Now people are coming out of the woodwork with testimonies that Wilson was telling everyone that his wife "worked at the Agency" long before Novak wrote that column. Yeah, she was really covert all right.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=47289

I remain amazed at all these Dems who think Rove should resign, when he has not been charged with any crimes, but that Clinton should have stayed in office despite his perjury, obstruction of justice, and other crimes for which a federal judge fined and sanctioned him.......real consistency there !!!

Marco

Marco Zee · Post by **Marco Zee** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:41 am

Here's more trouble for Wilson.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commen ... 05_DB.html

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:55 am

Once again I completely agree with Marco. I mean, lacking any evidence that any bogus source of information may possibly not be false, we should take the position that we must invade and destroy any country that MAY possibly be percieved as a threat to us. Can't afford to wait for any evidence to the contrary, lest that smoking gun be a mushroom cloud, right?

So F*&K EM all, that's what I say! Let's nuke all them A-Rabs before they nuke us! And while we're at it, we should probably lob a few at those French and Germans, just to let them know we haven't forgotten about their attempts to stop us from invading whoever we want! As for the Ruskies, well, they got oil and natural gas, so they deserve a pass on getting nuked, dontcha know cha ching cha ching.

While we're at it, let's not forget the immoral segments of our society that are a threat to our long-term survival. We can't wait for the right to take control of the Supreme Court--its time to eliminate all abortion clinics and welfare support. While we're at it, we should imprison all gays and other "undersirables," (you know the type, anybody who isn't white and doesn't go to my church).

HJVJHGF YTIYGFIKFYJBV YGIGFYIUTYIKTY!!

Frothing at the mouth and cross-eyed: zieg-heil, zeig-heil!
marcoGeneralBuckTurginson(or how I learned to love the atomic bomb)

Post by **mcelrah** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:28 pm

You got it backwards: Rove is a political hack, Wilson is an ambassador. Bush said he would fire anyone who had leaked Plame's name, and Rove has admitted to doing so. Is Bush lying now oar was he lying then? An aid who serves at the pleasure of the president can be let go with no damage to the republic.

If we really want to go to a parliamentary system wherein the chief executive serves for an indeterminate term and can be thrown out of office at any time, then your remarks about Clinton are on target. I offer Italy before Berlusconi and France before Degaulle as examples of the instability that would get you. If we believe in having a strong chief executive (one who can order people held incommunicado without trial on his own authority, for instance) then we don't take a president down for anything less than crimes against the State (lying about a blow job doesn't get there).

Hugh

>From: Marco Zee <marcoz757@aol.com>
>Date: Tue Nov 08 08:34:46 CST 2005
>To: ot_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Noose around the white house?

>
>Hugh,
>You can try to sugarcoat and attempt to justify all of Wilson actions as much as you want, but his entire trip, actions, and statements wreak of BS from start to finish and any fair minded, unbiased person knows that. He's a political hack who is hiding behind his wife's CIA skirt for protection. I don't understand why he wasn't forced to testify before Fitz's grand jury, as he was a central figure in this entire story. I guarantee he'll be first on the witness list in the Libby trial, if Bush doesn't pardon Libby during the Christmas holiday.
>Now people are coming out of the woodwork with testimonies that Wilson was telling everyone that his wife "worked at the Agency" long before Novak wrote that column. Yeah, she was really covert all right.
>
>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=47289
>
>I remain amazed at all these Dems who think Rove should resign, when he has not been charged with any crimes, but that Clinton should have stayed in office despite his perjury, obstruction of justice, and other crimes for which a federal judge fined and sanctioned him.......real consistency there !!!
>
>Marco

Post by **deveil** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:57 am

election day results: has a national tet (toss entrenched tyrants) offensive begun? i guess a real leader would ignore these poll also, eh?

Post by **mcelrah** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:23 pm

I want Bush and Cheney to whip all the Republican legislators to keep
the right to torture - now there's a winning issue! - Hugh

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