Reading Glider Manuals?
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
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Flying Lobster
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- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
Reading Glider Manuals?
Do pilots actually bother to read their owner's manuals these days??
Great Googly-moo!
Reading Glider Manuals?
Well, I did read the well-written Wills Wings manual when I got my
glider, but might not be able to pass a test on it now. I do not/not
read GPS, vario or radio manuals except under duress. Why do you
ask? - Hugh
glider, but might not be able to pass a test on it now. I do not/not
read GPS, vario or radio manuals except under duress. Why do you
ask? - Hugh
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Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
Most owner's manuals--especially those for Wills Wing gliders--are quite explicit with information on proper technique for items such as launching, flying and landing. I think that many answers to pilot's questions are in there. Also in there are warnings of things to avoid.
Turns at low altitude, especially with speed, especially on gliders that have demanding handling, are inherently dangerous. I'm not familiar with any regular lz's in region 9 that cannot be landed in using a well-executed standard aircraft approach on any level hang glider.
marc
Turns at low altitude, especially with speed, especially on gliders that have demanding handling, are inherently dangerous. I'm not familiar with any regular lz's in region 9 that cannot be landed in using a well-executed standard aircraft approach on any level hang glider.
marc
Great Googly-moo!
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Lauren Tjaden
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- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:27 pm
Reading Glider Manuals?
(Lauren) I would agree -- as anyone would -- that low turns, especially on a high performance glider, are dangerous. But I think?a pilot needs to be able to fly both figure 8 and aircraft approaches.?Quest teaches the figure 8 approach almost exclusively, because it is easy, while Highland teaches the aircraft approach almost exclusively, because it eliminates the need for sharper turns and thus much of the danger (or at least this is why I THINK they teach it, I am speaking for them without permission). Paris says he uses the aircraft approach in winds under 10 and the figure 8 in winds of 10 or more. I was confused, and asked Mike B what he thought the other day.
He says that he?uses the aircraft approach 95 percent of the time, but in stronger winds, he uses the figure 8. He says that when flying an aircraft approach in higher winds, that on the downwind (particularly on a high performance glider) the glider can get going so fast that it is almost impossible to turn back towards the field. On a figure 8 in wind, you are almost always turned slightly towards the field. Of course the turns you make should be smooooth and at a safe altitude. Anyhow, it made sense to me.
I also know that personally I need to have the figure 8 as a backup if I make a mistake with the aircraft approach, though trust me, I have gotten religion about the low turns!
Lauren
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Turns at low altitude, especially with speed, especially on gliders that have demanding handling, are inherently dangerous. I'm not familiar with any regular lz's in region 9 that cannot be landed in using a well-executed standard aircraft approach on any level hang glider.
marcgot art?
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marc - as Lauren says, the standard correction to messing up an aircraft approach is to throw in an S-turn. Maybe bad-ass pilots like you never mess up an aircraft approach when flying a new wing, but the rest of us mere mortals invariably will. In that case, you need to practice doing a couple linked S turns tight enough to keep you from executing a turn over trees. One S turn should be sufficient, buy you never know.
Don't pilots read training manuals anymore?
Don't pilots read training manuals anymore?
Brian Vant-Hull
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Flying Lobster
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S-turns are supposedly the classic way to peel off altitude in case a final is high--but they are notorius for creeping up the field anyway--to truly peel off significant altitude once your inside the periphery of the field you will likely need to bank it pretty hard--based on the original recommendation of using them to approach Woodstock and High Rock. I've seen many a crash in the lz as a result of out-of-control low turns. I also know of fatalities due to same.
Now--flying into a stiff headwind and using figure 8's (an H4 skill, BTW) is definitely a valid technique--but used only under high wind circumstances.
In any event--by all means don't take my word for it--just call the manufacturer who made your glider and ask their opinion--they probably flew it a thousand times or so before they wrote their recommendations on how to land them.
Now--flying into a stiff headwind and using figure 8's (an H4 skill, BTW) is definitely a valid technique--but used only under high wind circumstances.
In any event--by all means don't take my word for it--just call the manufacturer who made your glider and ask their opinion--they probably flew it a thousand times or so before they wrote their recommendations on how to land them.
Great Googly-moo!
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Flying Lobster
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Another way to look at this is to ask yourself the follow questions:
"Over the years, how many times have you seen a pilot overshoot the Woodstock or HR lz and go all the way to the other end of the field?"
then ask yourself:
"Over the years, how many times have you seen a pilot come in too low/slow?"
marc
"Over the years, how many times have you seen a pilot overshoot the Woodstock or HR lz and go all the way to the other end of the field?"
then ask yourself:
"Over the years, how many times have you seen a pilot come in too low/slow?"
marc
Great Googly-moo!
So what do you do if you screw up your aircraft approach and are 50-100 feet too high? Just pick out the softest looking tree on the far end of the field and aim for it? Don't tell me the answer is "don't screw up your aircraft approach"....
...theoretically you should notice the problem far enough ahead of time to widen the pattern, but you don't want to overdo that either....
...theoretically you should notice the problem far enough ahead of time to widen the pattern, but you don't want to overdo that either....
Brian Vant-Hull
I think we're posting at almost the same time.
Answer to your previous question: a few incidents from too high, roughly equal times too low, and I don't understand how slow is related to the topic at all. I've seen people throw in S turns at safe altitude more times than I can count, so maybe I should count those as the high times? The high times are almost always when somebody has just moved up to a new wing.
Answer to your previous question: a few incidents from too high, roughly equal times too low, and I don't understand how slow is related to the topic at all. I've seen people throw in S turns at safe altitude more times than I can count, so maybe I should count those as the high times? The high times are almost always when somebody has just moved up to a new wing.
Brian Vant-Hull
Man, interesting topic! I'm FAR from being an expert and still figuring it out. So far, my approach pattern is the "high-altitude DB (saving the F 'til later) followed by however many 360's I need to do to arrive at a good height to go on final. Now before anyone screams "that's incredibly dangerous and stupid" I should add that I try to stay inside the field and don't do 360s below 250-300'. So far this has worked well...but I know that doesn't mean it's the best way to do it! (I've practiced other approaches as well, just haven't used them as much.)
I know the books say doing 360s isn't good as you lose sight of the LZ momentarily...but I've found doing 360s easier/more comfortable than trying to do figure-8s or S-turns.
Then there's the question of how long can each "leg" of a figure-8 can be before you don't call it a figure-8 any more, but "doing long base laps until final?"
Scott
I know the books say doing 360s isn't good as you lose sight of the LZ momentarily...but I've found doing 360s easier/more comfortable than trying to do figure-8s or S-turns.
Then there's the question of how long can each "leg" of a figure-8 can be before you don't call it a figure-8 any more, but "doing long base laps until final?"
Scott
Reading Glider Manuals?
Scott, that will work at the tow park with relatively light winds. Doing
360s at the downwind end of a field will not work at a mountain site where
there is usually stronger winds. Imagine doing 360s in a 15 mph wind and
trying to stay inside the field.
Laps at the end of the field are still figure 8s, they are just stretched
out figure 8s. Much better at a mountain site because you can always stay
inside the trees.
You need to figure out when to start the Downwind part of your landing so
that the Base and Final are at the proper altitude. Do the 360s at the
upwind end of the field, then when you are at the right altitude (best
guess), start the DBF. If you are doing the downwind part, and you are too
high, angle a little so that the Base is longer. If you are too low, angle
it so that the base is shorter.
It is all in the books.
-Mike Balk
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott [mailto:sw@shadepine.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 6:19 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Reading Glider Manuals?
Man, interesting topic! I'm FAR from being an expert and still figuring it
out. So far, my approach pattern is the "high-altitude DB (saving the F 'til
later) followed by however many 360's I need to do to arrive at a good
height to go on final. Now before anyone screams "that's incredibly
dangerous and stupid" I should add that I try to stay inside the field and
don't do 360s below 250-300'. So far this has worked well...but I know that
doesn't mean it's the best way to do it! (I've practiced other approaches as
well, just haven't used them as much.)
I know the books say doing 360s isn't good as you lose sight of the LZ
momentarily...but I've found doing 360s easier/more comfortable than trying
to do figure-8s or S-turns.
Then there's the question of how long can each "leg" of a figure-8 can be
before you don't call it a figure-8 any more, but "doing long base laps
until final?"
Scott
360s at the downwind end of a field will not work at a mountain site where
there is usually stronger winds. Imagine doing 360s in a 15 mph wind and
trying to stay inside the field.
Laps at the end of the field are still figure 8s, they are just stretched
out figure 8s. Much better at a mountain site because you can always stay
inside the trees.
You need to figure out when to start the Downwind part of your landing so
that the Base and Final are at the proper altitude. Do the 360s at the
upwind end of the field, then when you are at the right altitude (best
guess), start the DBF. If you are doing the downwind part, and you are too
high, angle a little so that the Base is longer. If you are too low, angle
it so that the base is shorter.
It is all in the books.
-Mike Balk
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott [mailto:sw@shadepine.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 6:19 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Reading Glider Manuals?
Man, interesting topic! I'm FAR from being an expert and still figuring it
out. So far, my approach pattern is the "high-altitude DB (saving the F 'til
later) followed by however many 360's I need to do to arrive at a good
height to go on final. Now before anyone screams "that's incredibly
dangerous and stupid" I should add that I try to stay inside the field and
don't do 360s below 250-300'. So far this has worked well...but I know that
doesn't mean it's the best way to do it! (I've practiced other approaches as
well, just haven't used them as much.)
I know the books say doing 360s isn't good as you lose sight of the LZ
momentarily...but I've found doing 360s easier/more comfortable than trying
to do figure-8s or S-turns.
Then there's the question of how long can each "leg" of a figure-8 can be
before you don't call it a figure-8 any more, but "doing long base laps
until final?"
Scott
Good advice Mike, and yes---I've read it many times in the books! 
Actually, I haven't landed in 15mph winds in the mountains yet---so my 360 technique has worked---but like I said, that's no reason not to practice other techniques.
In fact, in all my (few) mountain flights so far, winds in the LZ have generally been considerably less than what they were at launch. I'm tempted to say at my beginner level, if the winds are 15mph in the LZ, then I probably shouldn't be flying 'cause they're probably 20+ at launch! Have many of you experienced pilots flown on days when launch and LZ winds were identical? (I ask just because I've never seen that in my extremely limited experience.)
Scott
Actually, I haven't landed in 15mph winds in the mountains yet---so my 360 technique has worked---but like I said, that's no reason not to practice other techniques.In fact, in all my (few) mountain flights so far, winds in the LZ have generally been considerably less than what they were at launch. I'm tempted to say at my beginner level, if the winds are 15mph in the LZ, then I probably shouldn't be flying 'cause they're probably 20+ at launch! Have many of you experienced pilots flown on days when launch and LZ winds were identical? (I ask just because I've never seen that in my extremely limited experience.)
Scott
Reading Glider Manuals?
Do you mean "Bored Troll"? - Hugh
Scott, please spend some time and get comfortable with propper aircraft and figure eight approaches. The path you are on will bite you in the ass some day. You're using a crutch and learning some real bad mojo. If you'd like to talk specifics, let me know.
Couple things about aircraft approaches...
S-turns are a last ditch effort to fix a seriously screwed up aircraft approach. All too often they are used as a primary correction when there are far better options available. There are a lot of options along the way that will at minimum get you close enough to land safely without doing S-turns. If you find that you're doing S-turns to fix your approachs, it may be time to step back and brush up.
Someone else pointed this one out...
One of the most common approach errors is flying too slow. Add this to some low level S-turns and you're really asking for it.
Just feeding the trolls I guess.
Jim
Couple things about aircraft approaches...
S-turns are a last ditch effort to fix a seriously screwed up aircraft approach. All too often they are used as a primary correction when there are far better options available. There are a lot of options along the way that will at minimum get you close enough to land safely without doing S-turns. If you find that you're doing S-turns to fix your approachs, it may be time to step back and brush up.
Someone else pointed this one out...
One of the most common approach errors is flying too slow. Add this to some low level S-turns and you're really asking for it.
Just feeding the trolls I guess.
Jim
> Then there's the question of how long can each "leg" of a figure-8 can be before you don't call it a figure-8 any more, but "doing long base laps until final?"
Short answer... Who cares?
"doing base laps until final" could be an accurate description of a figure eight approach.
Call it whatever you like... There isn't a maximum length.
When teaching figure eights at Quest, I have the student start at around a thousand feet up and use the entire length of the east/west runway.
Short answer... Who cares?
"doing base laps until final" could be an accurate description of a figure eight approach.
Call it whatever you like... There isn't a maximum length.
When teaching figure eights at Quest, I have the student start at around a thousand feet up and use the entire length of the east/west runway.
Reading Glider Manuals?
360s at the downwind edge of the field preparing for
final are dangerous, stupid, a bad habit, useless, and
unessesary.
Figure 8{s dont require sharp low turns anymore then a
dbf since the so called low turn is a 90 to final, not
a 180.
Kev C
--- Mike Balk <mike@talismanenterprises.net> wrote:
>
> Scott, that will work at the tow park with
> relatively light winds. Doing
> 360s at the downwind end of a field will not work at
> a mountain site where
> there is usually stronger winds. Imagine doing 360s
> in a 15 mph wind and
> trying to stay inside the field.
>
final are dangerous, stupid, a bad habit, useless, and
unessesary.
Figure 8{s dont require sharp low turns anymore then a
dbf since the so called low turn is a 90 to final, not
a 180.
Kev C
--- Mike Balk <mike@talismanenterprises.net> wrote:
>
> Scott, that will work at the tow park with
> relatively light winds. Doing
> 360s at the downwind end of a field will not work at
> a mountain site where
> there is usually stronger winds. Imagine doing 360s
> in a 15 mph wind and
> trying to stay inside the field.
>
Thanks all for setting me straight on the 360s thing. I had a hunch it wasn't good, but now I know. Clearly I don't deserve my H3. (Not said sarcastically.)
Back to the drawing board.
Scott
PS - BTW, nobody ever answered my question about LZ winds generally being less than launch (here at our sites in the east). Is that true?
Back to the drawing board.
Scott
PS - BTW, nobody ever answered my question about LZ winds generally being less than launch (here at our sites in the east). Is that true?
Reading Glider Manuals?
It is true that winds are often lighter in the LZ than on launch or in the
air. Often due to the compression of the ridge, and the gradient of the
trees around the LZ. BUT anything can happen. In the middle of the day
when thermals are releasing from the LZ, it can be very turbulent, with
headwind switching to tailwind instantly. It can often be coming from a
different direction.
But on cranking mountian days, it is often just as windy in the LZ. And we
all know that conditions can change over the day. What about the scenario
where it calms down enough to launch, then starts cranking back up. It can
be the case that it is windier in the LZ than it was when you launched.
Never assume that you know what it will be doing on the ground when it is
time to land. Wind socks, other gliders, waves on the water, leaves on the
trees, smoke in the air all provide hints and should be taken into account.
-Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott [mailto:sw@shadepine.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 7:41 AM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Reading Glider Manuals?
Thanks all for setting me straight on the 360s thing. I had a hunch it
wasn't good, but now I know. Clearly I don't deserve my H3. (Not said
sarcastically.)
Back to the drawing board.
Scott
PS - BTW, nobody ever answered my question about LZ winds generally being
less than launch (here at our sites in the east). Is that true?
air. Often due to the compression of the ridge, and the gradient of the
trees around the LZ. BUT anything can happen. In the middle of the day
when thermals are releasing from the LZ, it can be very turbulent, with
headwind switching to tailwind instantly. It can often be coming from a
different direction.
But on cranking mountian days, it is often just as windy in the LZ. And we
all know that conditions can change over the day. What about the scenario
where it calms down enough to launch, then starts cranking back up. It can
be the case that it is windier in the LZ than it was when you launched.
Never assume that you know what it will be doing on the ground when it is
time to land. Wind socks, other gliders, waves on the water, leaves on the
trees, smoke in the air all provide hints and should be taken into account.
-Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott [mailto:sw@shadepine.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 7:41 AM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Reading Glider Manuals?
Thanks all for setting me straight on the 360s thing. I had a hunch it
wasn't good, but now I know. Clearly I don't deserve my H3. (Not said
sarcastically.)
Back to the drawing board.
Scott
PS - BTW, nobody ever answered my question about LZ winds generally being
less than launch (here at our sites in the east). Is that true?
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Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
I think another aspect to what Kev and Jim are saying is that the use of a figure 8--well above the tree/obstructions--is simply a way of substituting a "stationary" base leg that avoids the necessity of a precisely executed downwind. This does have the advantage of placing the glider at the far downwind end of the field and avoids getting turned away from the eventual final. A good technique to master if you are contemplating frequent xc-ing or sticking it into a tight one--and a good way to peel off some altitude if you do arrive at the end of your downwind approach too high. I generally use this if I'm setting up a south approach at HR (but you generally don't want to be flying there on a south day anyway).
I'm not the world's best lander (contrary to what the legions of my on-line fan club may think)--which is precisely the reason I avoid rolling the glider once I've turned onto final if at all possible.
marc
I'm not the world's best lander (contrary to what the legions of my on-line fan club may think)--which is precisely the reason I avoid rolling the glider once I've turned onto final if at all possible.
marc
Why is the figure 8 suddenly all safe and good and the S turn (nearly identical to a figure 
is such a bad option? The S turn might eat up a little field, but doesn't put you in such tight turns.
The original discussion concerns someone transitioning to a higher performance glider and coming a little too high into a limited size field with trees. I would think you'd want to give yourself some leeway in the turns- and a figure 8 turn might get a little too much away from you if flying the incorrect speed out of nervousness. If you guys are advocating figure 8's to lose altitude in this situation then fine...it still should be practiced in an open field as though it were a tree lined field.
is such a bad option? The S turn might eat up a little field, but doesn't put you in such tight turns.The original discussion concerns someone transitioning to a higher performance glider and coming a little too high into a limited size field with trees. I would think you'd want to give yourself some leeway in the turns- and a figure 8 turn might get a little too much away from you if flying the incorrect speed out of nervousness. If you guys are advocating figure 8's to lose altitude in this situation then fine...it still should be practiced in an open field as though it were a tree lined field.
Brian Vant-Hull
Okay, here's a beginner's perspective (experienced pilots, please chime in with some self-analysis about what you do).
I understand sighting angles. I understand parallax. I understand the DBF approach, as well as figure-8s. (Of course I still need to practice all these things more!)
The aspect of flying landing approaches that is most difficult for beginners---where the textbooks are vague---is knowing exactly how best to lose altitude to start your DBF. In other words, to have a good DBF in moderate-to-light winds (without needing to do S-turns, etc.), you need to arrive (as Dennis Pagen calls it) at the initiation point at the right altitude.
Like I said, I need to practice this more (so no need to call out my ignorance---I'm aware of it)...I'm just pointing out that this is the most difficult part for a beginner.
The bottom line is, no matter how well you understand landing approaches as a beginner, at some point in the process you simply have to have a good feel for your glider's sink rate in different conditions, and you have to be able to judge angles and altitude effectively. This takes time---a lot of time. Not something that someone with 20 hours gets down perfectly.
If any experienced pilots have a bombproof method for doing this, I'd love to hear it. I'm guessing, though, that it just takes a lot of time and practice.
Scott
I understand sighting angles. I understand parallax. I understand the DBF approach, as well as figure-8s. (Of course I still need to practice all these things more!)
The aspect of flying landing approaches that is most difficult for beginners---where the textbooks are vague---is knowing exactly how best to lose altitude to start your DBF. In other words, to have a good DBF in moderate-to-light winds (without needing to do S-turns, etc.), you need to arrive (as Dennis Pagen calls it) at the initiation point at the right altitude.
Like I said, I need to practice this more (so no need to call out my ignorance---I'm aware of it)...I'm just pointing out that this is the most difficult part for a beginner.
The bottom line is, no matter how well you understand landing approaches as a beginner, at some point in the process you simply have to have a good feel for your glider's sink rate in different conditions, and you have to be able to judge angles and altitude effectively. This takes time---a lot of time. Not something that someone with 20 hours gets down perfectly.
If any experienced pilots have a bombproof method for doing this, I'd love to hear it. I'm guessing, though, that it just takes a lot of time and practice.
Scott
Good question Scott. The fact that it's difficult is probably why the Florida flight parks teach the figure 8 approach instead of DBF.
One method Paris talked about is picking out a window at the downwind end of the field which is at the ideal altitude for performing a turn onto final. Then use paralax on it so that you hit that window: adjusting your speed and/or glide path so that you will arrive right in that window. This is SO MUCH EASIER on a single surface glider....that's why I love'em.
But don't know any trick for getting to the right altitude so that you don't have to do crazy stuff in order to hit your turn window. Start a little high, do a test run and if the parallax shows you won't make it circle around and try again?
One method Paris talked about is picking out a window at the downwind end of the field which is at the ideal altitude for performing a turn onto final. Then use paralax on it so that you hit that window: adjusting your speed and/or glide path so that you will arrive right in that window. This is SO MUCH EASIER on a single surface glider....that's why I love'em.
But don't know any trick for getting to the right altitude so that you don't have to do crazy stuff in order to hit your turn window. Start a little high, do a test run and if the parallax shows you won't make it circle around and try again?
Brian Vant-Hull
Yes Brian---Paris Williams calls it an "airgate," and I agree, that sounds like a great way get the final right---I just haven't worked on this yet! (But definitely plan to.)
Kevin and other high-airtime pilots...if you think about how you reach your initiation point, I'd bet you're not using any specific measuring sticks or techniques---you guys have flown so much you just feel it. You know how much your glider will sink in a given distance, which makes it easier to simply do an instantaneous, mental altitude/distance check, and know exactly where you'll end up, and adjust accordingly on the fly.
When I try to analyze what I'm doing when I paddle whitewater, it's incredibly hard, because I'm processing such a dense, realtime stream of data that it's difficult to point to any one or two things that make it work. I just know what to do.
I hope to reach that point some day with flying!
Scott
Kevin and other high-airtime pilots...if you think about how you reach your initiation point, I'd bet you're not using any specific measuring sticks or techniques---you guys have flown so much you just feel it. You know how much your glider will sink in a given distance, which makes it easier to simply do an instantaneous, mental altitude/distance check, and know exactly where you'll end up, and adjust accordingly on the fly.
When I try to analyze what I'm doing when I paddle whitewater, it's incredibly hard, because I'm processing such a dense, realtime stream of data that it's difficult to point to any one or two things that make it work. I just know what to do.
I hope to reach that point some day with flying!
Scott