Helmet safety?

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Scott
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:53 am
Location: Shepherdstown, WV

Helmet safety?

Post by Scott »

Yeah, I know---this has been flogged here (and elsewhere) before. I'm just posting this in light of a few recent accidents in which pilots wearing Charley Insider and Icaro Skyrunner full-face helmets basically had their faces clobbered in a catastrophic way. Consider these two accounts---first, from a post I made to the Oz Report about Holly's accident...
...when my girlfriend Holly had a bad accident on Memorial Day, she was wearing a Charley Insider. She hit the ground, and shattered every bone in her face. The chin guard broke clean through just to the right of center...and there was a second crack (clean through the shell) starting above the left eye and extending back a couple inches.

The question we'll never have an answer to is...did the helmet protect her? Or not? Seems logical to assume that the helmet must have offered some protection...on the other hand, though, it's hard to imagine how the damage to Holly's face could have been any worse. (Happy ending---she looks fine now!)

The chin guard may have helped some, as (amazingly) Holly suffered no damage to her teeth whatsoever (even while shattering the rest of her face). On the other hand, the bridge of Holly's nose was broken and shoved back into her brain cavity, clearly a result of the upper helmet opening rotating downward and into her face. I wish we could know exactly what happened on impact. It's very hard to puzzle out.
And here is a report by Bruce Rhymes from the Oz Report forum on another incident involving a full-face helmet...
I've been reading the helmet thoughts, and just have to speak out. This past August, my flying friend blew launch, and suffered very serious head and brain injuries while wearing a nearly-new Icaro Skyrunner full-face helmet. Like the Charly Insider, it meets the European EN966 certification for aerosports helmets. My buddy hit the rocks below launch face-first, at only 25mph. or so, but still crushed his forehead, shattered the entire orbit of his right eye, with accompanying frontal lobe injury. He broke his upper jaw in two places, and then there were the lesser injuries, like collarbone, etc. He lived through his two?week coma, though it was dicey for awhile... he made it through acute care and rehab to come home to continue recovery. Believe me, we want to avoid his experiences, and none of us are immune to a blown launch, or worse.

So: I've ended up in posession of his helmet, and upon close examination of it, and discussion with other pilot eyewitnesses to the crash, we all have come to the conclusion that his helmet offered inadequate protection. Two of us spent an hour at the motorcycle shop, looking over lots of motocross helmets by Bell, Shoei, Arai and other manufacturers. It's plain to any observer that these helmets, which meet DOT/Snell certification standards, offer much, much greater protection than any hang gliding helmet I've seen. Sure, they weigh more. So what. I've had a two-hour flight with my new Arai VXPRO motocross helmet, which weighs a full pound more than my Icaro helmet did... no problem. Besides, as one of the eyewitnesses said: "The cost of these motocross helmets is about as expensive as two aspirin in the hospital".

I'm a believer in the MX helmets for flying now. I hope this will make us all take a look at the flexible little eggshells we've been flying with for so long, and begin to provide more protection for our brains. Keep flying safely, Bruce Rhymes
An extensive study conducted by a professor at Bowdoin College shows that while helmets decrease the severity of head injury, they statistically increase the severity of neck injuries...and therefore it cannot be accurately maintained that "helmets save lives."
http://www.bikersrights.com/statistics/ ... stein.html

It might sound as though I'm arguing against helmets or full-face helmets. I'm not. But it's crystal-clear that full-face helmets aren't going to prevent significant head/face injuries in accidents. I don't what the best solution is. Everyone has their beliefs. Other than just being as safe as possible, I'm not sure there is any bombproof way of mitigating severe head injuries in a crash. Just something we must live with.

Meanwhile, I still might go shopping for a motocross helmet and take my chances on the neck injury (and keep flying safe!).

Scott

PS - One interesting point (not verified conclusively) is that the makers of the Charley and Icaro helmets tend to use one helmet shell size and simply vary the amount of padding inside the shell to come up with different sizes. The outcome? People with big heads have less padding. If true, not good!
brianvh
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Post by brianvh »

We'll have to appoint you horse flogger in chief, Scott. I didn't say "dead horse" because not all subjects are dead, but I think we've gone through most of what people are gonna say less than a year ago.

I'm one of the few who wear a motorcycle helmet. I'll say what I've said before: many neck injuries come from the beak-like projection of the chin guard. I picked out a helmet where the chin guard does not poke out too much: more of a canister than a traditional helmet.

I don't think traditional HG helmets have enough foam to protect you from much more than bumping your head against the downtubes in flight.

That said....I wish I had more visual clearance, though more visual clearance means more face pokes out of the helmet on impact. Cyclists don't really need to look up. I wish it wasn't so heavy, but since motorcyclists don't ride prone, they don't see much reason to invest in weight saving materials. Both are greater safety issues for HG than MX.

We all decide what matters to us, and without good statistics we'll never know who's right. Don't know if that motorcycle study looked at the chin projection....would be interesting.
Brian Vant-Hull
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Scott
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Post by Scott »

Many of the studies on helmet safety in motorcycles (from what I've read) don't take into account the many other contributing factors to fatalities, e.g. recklessness, alcohol, ignorance of insanely over-powered bikes, speed (kinetic energy) etc. It's been suggested (but not proven) that people who die on motorcycles are more likely to die for all these reasons...and not just because they were wearing a half-shell or no helmet at all. (Hence the continued debate over helmet laws.)

I'm really not trying to resurrect a dead topic...just "thinking out loud" and wondering if I should spend some bucks on a beefier helmet? Your approach Brian seems good---finding a full-face helmet that doesn't have such a protruding chin guard.

Scott
Flying Lobster
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Post by Flying Lobster »

brianvh wrote:...but since motorcyclists don't ride prone....
They can and some do.

marc
Great Googly-moo!
batmanh3

Post by batmanh3 »

Must be another slow flying week ....
deveil
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Location: garyD - Falls Church, Va

Post by deveil »

'used a bmw helmet that has a flip up chin guard for both flying and motorcycle. it survived (my face also) my hitting a deer at 65mph and the subsequent rolling and sliding down the highway.
i'd think a chin guard that protruded extensively could act (like a lever) to push the helmet out of position upon impact(?)
(ride prone? sure, but i used the tank bag as a chin rest :shock:)

brianvh wrote:
...but since motorcyclists don't ride prone....

marc wrote:
They can and some do.
garyDevan
mcelrah
Posts: 2323
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:30 pm

Helmet safety?

Post by mcelrah »

Since I needed to replace my HG/PG helmet, and was also in the market for a new, more comfortable motorcycle helmet, I tried flying with the MC helmet. It's full face, with a nifty latching chinguard (so you can put it on/take it off without removing your glasses). BUT, it ways around 1500 grams. The HG helmet I subsequently bought weighs 670 grams. I might use the MC helmet for PG, since you fly upright, but I for one am not willing to cut short a successful soaring HG flight because I can no longer hold my head up comfortably... - Hugh

>From: Scott <sw@shadepine.com>
>Date: Thu Oct 20 15:40:40 CDT 2005
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Helmet safety?

>
>Many of the studies on helmet safety in motorcycles (from what I've read) don't take into account the many other contributing factors to fatalities, e.g. recklessness, alcohol, ignorance of insanely over-powered bikes, speed (kinetic energy) etc. It's been suggested (but not proven) that people who die on motorcycles are more likely to die for all these reasons...and not just because they were wearing a half-shell or no helmet at all. (Hence the continued debate over helmet laws.)
>
>I'm really not trying to resurrect a dead topic...just "thinking out loud" and wondering if I should spend some bucks on a beefier helmet? Your approach Brian seems good---finding a full-face helmet that doesn't have such a protruding chin guard.
>
>Scott
mcelrah
Posts: 2323
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:30 pm

Helmet safety?

Post by mcelrah »

I would say that my Icaro Skyrunner "did" prevent more serious injury when I crashed at High Rock. The deformation of the helmet shell - and the bloody bruise on my head - were both in the back, so presumably it was my head that broke the keel. The Icaro owner's manual emphasizes that the shell absorbs and disperses energy by means of it's own destruction. That is, a helmet shell that stays intact may transmit MORE force to the wearer's head.

Our prone flying position is part of the problem - we tend to arrive at the scene of the accident head-first. Although my upright flying position on final probably contributed to going in the trees in the first place, it mitigated the injuries I received.

Protective gear works up to a point, but can be overwhelmed by the forces of a more serious accident.

Hugh

>From: Scott <sw@shadepine.com>
>Date: Thu Oct 20 14:38:22 CDT 2005
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Helmet safety?

>
>Yeah, I know---this has been flogged here (and elsewhere) before. I'm just posting this in light of a few recent accidents in which pilots wearing Charley Insider and Icaro Skyrunner full-face helmets basically had their faces clobbered in a catastrophic way. Consider these two accounts---first, from a post I made to the Oz Report about Holly's accident...
>
>Quote:
>...when my girlfriend Holly had a bad accident on Memorial Day, she was wearing a Charley Insider. She hit the ground, and shattered every bone in her face. The chin guard broke clean through just to the right of center...and there was a second crack (clean through the shell) starting above the left eye and extending back a couple inches.
>
>The question we'll never have an answer to is...did the helmet protect her? Or not? Seems logical to assume that the helmet must have offered some protection...on the other hand, though, it's hard to imagine how the damage to Holly's face could have been any worse. (Happy ending---she looks fine now!)
>
>The chin guard may have helped some, as (amazingly) Holly suffered no damage to her teeth whatsoever (even while shattering the rest of her face). On the other hand, the bridge of Holly's nose was broken and shoved back into her brain cavity, clearly a result of the upper helmet opening rotating downward and into her face. I wish we could know exactly what happened on impact. It's very hard to puzzle out.
>(end of quote)
>
>And here is a report by Bruce Rhymes from the Oz Report forum on another incident involving a full-face helmet...
>
>Quote:
>I've been reading the helmet thoughts, and just have to speak out. This past August, my flying friend blew launch, and suffered very serious head and brain injuries while wearing a nearly-new Icaro Skyrunner full-face helmet. Like the Charly Insider, it meets the European EN966 certification for aerosports helmets. My buddy hit the rocks below launch face-first, at only 25mph. or so, but still crushed his forehead, shattered the entire orbit of his right eye, with accompanying frontal lobe injury. He broke his upper jaw in two places, and then there were the lesser injuries, like collarbone, etc. He lived through his two?week coma, though it was dicey for awhile... he made it through acute care and rehab to come home to continue recovery. Believe me, we want to avoid his experiences, and none of us are immune to a blown launch, or worse.
>
>So: I've ended up in posession of his helmet, and upon close examination of it, and discussion with other pilot eyewitnesses to the crash, we all have come to the conclusion that his helmet offered inadequate protection. Two of us spent an hour at the motorcycle shop, looking over lots of motocross helmets by Bell, Shoei, Arai and other manufacturers. It's plain to any observer that these helmets, which meet DOT/Snell certification standards, offer much, much greater protection than any hang gliding helmet I've seen. Sure, they weigh more. So what. I've had a two-hour flight with my new Arai VXPRO motocross helmet, which weighs a full pound more than my Icaro helmet did... no problem. Besides, as one of the eyewitnesses said: "The cost of these motocross helmets is about as expensive as two aspirin in the hospital".
>
>I'm a believer in the MX helmets for flying now. I hope this will make us all take a look at the flexible little eggshells we've been flying with for so long, and begin to provide more protection for our brains. Keep flying safely, Bruce Rhymes
>(end of quote)
>
>
>An extensive study conducted by a professor at Bowdoin College shows that while helmets decrease the severity of head injury, they statistically increase the severity of neck injuries...and therefore it cannot be accurately maintained that "helmets save lives."
>
>
>It might sound as though I'm arguing against helmets or full-face helmets. I'm not. But it's crystal-clear that full-face helmets aren't going to prevent significant head/face injuries in accidents. I don't what the best solution is. Everyone has their beliefs. Other than just being as safe as possible, I'm not sure there is any bombproof way of mitigating severe head injuries in a crash. Just something we must live with.
>
>Meanwhile, I still might go shopping for a motocross helmet and take my chances on the neck injury (and keep flying safe!).
>
>Scott
>
>PS - One interesting point (not verified conclusively) is that the makers of the Charley and Icaro helmets tend to use one helmet shell size and simply vary the amount of padding inside the shell to come up with different sizes. The outcome? People with big heads have less padding. If true, not good!
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