> JR wrote:
>I don't consider Holly's accident just a matter of pilot error. I consider
>it in large part to be a failure of the pilot community. The technology to
>have prevented that sort of thing was available then and it's still getting
>ignored because the old stuff just once in a while contributes to or causes
>accidents critical and fatal.
>
JR - could you be more explicit: What exactly was the equipment failure that caused Holly's accident? Do we know that she tried to release and couldn't?
I don't think Holly remembers the flight. I can well imagine concentrating so hard on getting the glider back in line that you forget about the release entirely.
Though I feel my loop style release is better than a downtube mounted release, I don't know if I can say conclusively that it would have kept Holly out of lockout.
$15 pacifiers
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
Re: $15 pacifiers
Brian Vant-Hull
-
theflyingdude
- Posts: 356
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:40 pm
- Location: Cumberland, MD
Re: $15 pacifiers
Brian,brianvh wrote:> Tad wrote:
>I don't consider Holly's accident just a matter of pilot error. I consider
>it in large part to be a failure of the pilot community. The technology to
>have prevented that sort of thing was available then and it's still getting
>ignored because the old stuff just once in a while contributes to or causes
>accidents critical and fatal.
>
JR - could you be more explicit: What exactly was the equipment failure that caused Holly's accident? Do we know that she tried to release and couldn't?
I don't think Holly remembers the flight. I can well imagine concentrating so hard on getting the glider back in line that you forget about the release entirely.
Though I feel my loop style release is better than a downtube mounted release, I don't know if I can say conclusively that it would have kept Holly out of lockout.
I didn't write that. That was from a post Tad submitted that I was responding to in the missive below it. You'll have to ask him to be more explicit, but since he wasn't there, it will probably be more pure conjecture.
JR
Speaking on Holly's behalf (which I don't think she'd mind)...there wasn't---to my knowledge---any equipment failure in her accident. Her bicycle-brake-style cable aerotow release was installed on the downtube, but because she was missing the riser line (with weak link) that goes up to the 2nd point on the keel, the cable release was useless.
She decided to tow single-point from the shoulders. She did have a standard barrel release, but wasn't accustomed to using it.
Our theory is that when she began losing control, she probably whacked at the cable release handle (forgetting---under enormous stress---that it was useless)...and didn't think to reach for the barrel release, because (like many of us) she had almost never used it before.
End result? No weak link, and no release...and she remained attached to the tug until the point of violent lockout/release from the tug.
----
I certainly don't fault anyone or the flying community at large...but if I interpret Tad's point correctly, it might be that if we all only used a single, 100% reliable form of aerotow release (instead of having various methods, options, multiple releases, etc.), then Holly's accident might not have happened, because there would only have been one option for her (e.g. no chance for her to leave half the system out).
Scott
PS - One valuable lesson I took away from Holly's incident (aside from the obvious importance of preflight checks, using a weak link, etc.) is the importance of using *both* the barrel release and lever release all the time if one is going to use that type of 2-point system. Both releases have to be instinctive, which only comes about through repetitive use and practice.
She decided to tow single-point from the shoulders. She did have a standard barrel release, but wasn't accustomed to using it.
Our theory is that when she began losing control, she probably whacked at the cable release handle (forgetting---under enormous stress---that it was useless)...and didn't think to reach for the barrel release, because (like many of us) she had almost never used it before.
End result? No weak link, and no release...and she remained attached to the tug until the point of violent lockout/release from the tug.
----
I certainly don't fault anyone or the flying community at large...but if I interpret Tad's point correctly, it might be that if we all only used a single, 100% reliable form of aerotow release (instead of having various methods, options, multiple releases, etc.), then Holly's accident might not have happened, because there would only have been one option for her (e.g. no chance for her to leave half the system out).
Scott
PS - One valuable lesson I took away from Holly's incident (aside from the obvious importance of preflight checks, using a weak link, etc.) is the importance of using *both* the barrel release and lever release all the time if one is going to use that type of 2-point system. Both releases have to be instinctive, which only comes about through repetitive use and practice.
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
$15 pacifiers
The release worked. When the trigger line was released the mechanism
performed as it was supposed to.
The adjustment didn't work and I'm real, real sorry that the consequences
were so untidy but a weak link break could have resulted in the same situation
and those can happen at any time. If a cart has been dragged aloft other
mistakes have been made and we can't make things completely idiot proof but that
sounds like a situation in which Steve's release could be extremely useful - even
if there have been a couple of glitches in development.
I don't consider a pilot plowing in as a result of not maintaining airspeed
after (or before) prematurely releasing from tow at low level to be an accident
attributable to the timing of the separation. If I believed that my health
was highly dependent on the integrity of a loop of one millimeter diameter
fishing line I'd probably spend more time at the movie theater on weekends.
I apologize if I'm wrong, Kevin, but I would really like to hear of an
account in which someone was hurt doing nothing wrong solely due to a premature
release.
With respect to lockouts... I'm guessing that because of the planet's
surface restricting vertical flow and the ability to place ribbons along the runway
they're a whole lot less likely to happen where they really matter, but, I
believe, when you get hit you get hit and a lighter handling glider but no amount
of skill or muscle is going to help. At altitude I don't see them as much of
an issue anyway.
Steve's release incorporates a modification of a multiple string truck tow
release on the right and a barrel release on the left. The former is for
emergency low level lockout use only (and I've never been in a situation in which
I'd have had to think about using it), the latter handles the more normal stuff.
It's pretty much like a conventional one point system but with another
option.
From a 1996/07 post by Joe Gregor relaying an eyewitness account:
"As the apparent lockout progressed the tug pilot tried momentarily reducing
power to relieve some of the control pressures on the glider so Mike and Bill
might have a better chance correct the turn. Failing this, and seeing himself
and the glider decending toward the trees, Dave took the only option left and
released. The release failed intially and it took some jockying of the tug to
make it go. There was no indication that release was attempted at the glider
end."
Weak links are forms of releases that kick in when we can't do the job fast
enough or at all. If an overly strong weak link was, indeed, a factor, then so
was the regular release. And, although it probably came too late in the
sequence to make any difference, note the mention of the failed attempt from the
other end.
From the 2005/09/05 Oz Report...
"The glider got out of whack and wasn't corrected soon enough, this
progressed into a lockout. At this point no-one is yet sure why, but it is known that
the weaklink failed to break (250lb) and as far as we understand the tow rope
broke (400+lb test) they were at a high angle of roll and had no time to
recover. This all occurred immediately after takeoff and they couldn't of been
higher than a few hundred feet."
Again, the glider failed to release as the system was designed.
Both accidents involved lockouts and it's almost always preferable to be off
tow early in such circumstances.
And (again), assuming they're getting similar doses of UV, if you're not
changing your harness suspension on an annual basis, it's pretty pointless to
replace your hang strap. Both of my suspension items are fabricated from one inch
flat nylon webbing.
And (again) I do regularly inspect and test my equipment (more thoroughly
than most, I suspect).
Brian/Scott...
I didn't reference an equipment failure in Holly's accident. I was thinking
along the lines of the post I made at the end of last month. As I said
yesterday, I'm all for redundancy if it serves a useful purpose. I have yet to hear
of a reason not to have primary, secondary, and tertiary weak links in a two
point system. If, as standard practice, there had been a weak link in Holly's
secondary bridle all the time, then she would have very likely had a less
traumatic separation from the tug than she did when the towline broke.
I'm in no way opposed to having various methods and I'm rabidly in favor of
options and multiple releases.
A cable lanyard release is a great way to quickly ready a glider for
aerotowing but... if you don't have a finger on the trigger (as do Dragonfly and
sailplane tow pilots) you're tossing a big factor in your safety margin. I'm not
sure how I'd react in a violent low altitude oscillation like Holly experienced
but I suspect a lot of us would have a hard time taking a hand off the
steering wheel long enough to whack at anything. But I feel pretty good about
sliding one an inch and great about parting my teeth an extra millimeter.
performed as it was supposed to.
The adjustment didn't work and I'm real, real sorry that the consequences
were so untidy but a weak link break could have resulted in the same situation
and those can happen at any time. If a cart has been dragged aloft other
mistakes have been made and we can't make things completely idiot proof but that
sounds like a situation in which Steve's release could be extremely useful - even
if there have been a couple of glitches in development.
I don't consider a pilot plowing in as a result of not maintaining airspeed
after (or before) prematurely releasing from tow at low level to be an accident
attributable to the timing of the separation. If I believed that my health
was highly dependent on the integrity of a loop of one millimeter diameter
fishing line I'd probably spend more time at the movie theater on weekends.
I apologize if I'm wrong, Kevin, but I would really like to hear of an
account in which someone was hurt doing nothing wrong solely due to a premature
release.
With respect to lockouts... I'm guessing that because of the planet's
surface restricting vertical flow and the ability to place ribbons along the runway
they're a whole lot less likely to happen where they really matter, but, I
believe, when you get hit you get hit and a lighter handling glider but no amount
of skill or muscle is going to help. At altitude I don't see them as much of
an issue anyway.
Steve's release incorporates a modification of a multiple string truck tow
release on the right and a barrel release on the left. The former is for
emergency low level lockout use only (and I've never been in a situation in which
I'd have had to think about using it), the latter handles the more normal stuff.
It's pretty much like a conventional one point system but with another
option.
From a 1996/07 post by Joe Gregor relaying an eyewitness account:
"As the apparent lockout progressed the tug pilot tried momentarily reducing
power to relieve some of the control pressures on the glider so Mike and Bill
might have a better chance correct the turn. Failing this, and seeing himself
and the glider decending toward the trees, Dave took the only option left and
released. The release failed intially and it took some jockying of the tug to
make it go. There was no indication that release was attempted at the glider
end."
Weak links are forms of releases that kick in when we can't do the job fast
enough or at all. If an overly strong weak link was, indeed, a factor, then so
was the regular release. And, although it probably came too late in the
sequence to make any difference, note the mention of the failed attempt from the
other end.
From the 2005/09/05 Oz Report...
"The glider got out of whack and wasn't corrected soon enough, this
progressed into a lockout. At this point no-one is yet sure why, but it is known that
the weaklink failed to break (250lb) and as far as we understand the tow rope
broke (400+lb test) they were at a high angle of roll and had no time to
recover. This all occurred immediately after takeoff and they couldn't of been
higher than a few hundred feet."
Again, the glider failed to release as the system was designed.
Both accidents involved lockouts and it's almost always preferable to be off
tow early in such circumstances.
And (again), assuming they're getting similar doses of UV, if you're not
changing your harness suspension on an annual basis, it's pretty pointless to
replace your hang strap. Both of my suspension items are fabricated from one inch
flat nylon webbing.
And (again) I do regularly inspect and test my equipment (more thoroughly
than most, I suspect).
Brian/Scott...
I didn't reference an equipment failure in Holly's accident. I was thinking
along the lines of the post I made at the end of last month. As I said
yesterday, I'm all for redundancy if it serves a useful purpose. I have yet to hear
of a reason not to have primary, secondary, and tertiary weak links in a two
point system. If, as standard practice, there had been a weak link in Holly's
secondary bridle all the time, then she would have very likely had a less
traumatic separation from the tug than she did when the towline broke.
I'm in no way opposed to having various methods and I'm rabidly in favor of
options and multiple releases.
A cable lanyard release is a great way to quickly ready a glider for
aerotowing but... if you don't have a finger on the trigger (as do Dragonfly and
sailplane tow pilots) you're tossing a big factor in your safety margin. I'm not
sure how I'd react in a violent low altitude oscillation like Holly experienced
but I suspect a lot of us would have a hard time taking a hand off the
steering wheel long enough to whack at anything. But I feel pretty good about
sliding one an inch and great about parting my teeth an extra millimeter.
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
$15 pacifiers
Another chunk of data regarding the units reflecting my refinement of Steve's
concept that have been launched to date...
There have been zero failures, premature releases, surprises, or issues of
any kind amongst the ones that have been preflighted ("Towing Aloft", Page 159,
Item 6).
This assembly incorporates a barrel release and a simplified truck tow
release. These aren't technologies which suddenly appeared from the opposite edge
of the galaxy.
Maybe Steve and I are total jerks who don't know what we're talking about and
some scenario which no one has yet been able to propose will result in a user
getting suddenly sucked into a parallel antimatter universe (beer - flat,
pizza - cold) but every one-pointer content to sit back and wait for that to
happen is gambling that he or she will be able to flawlessly actuate a hand
operated release in the event of a rare but frequently fatal low level lockout.
With respect to the annual replacement of side wires...
2002, draught, nobody could force a glider down all summer long.
2003, ninety days and ninety nights, nobody could get a glider out of the
garage all summer long.
John Heiney/Kevin Carter/flight park trainer/Tad Eareckson/Training Hill Susie
Owens Valley/Torrey Pines
One size fits all?
If there's really something relevant about the time it takes this planet to
spin around the sun one time shouldn't the other wires be replaced too?
Yeah, I RTFM but when I see a figure and have a good idea there was a dart
board somewhere nearby at the time it was derived I take it with a block of
salt. If any of my wires fails it will do so in the setup area.
concept that have been launched to date...
There have been zero failures, premature releases, surprises, or issues of
any kind amongst the ones that have been preflighted ("Towing Aloft", Page 159,
Item 6).
This assembly incorporates a barrel release and a simplified truck tow
release. These aren't technologies which suddenly appeared from the opposite edge
of the galaxy.
Maybe Steve and I are total jerks who don't know what we're talking about and
some scenario which no one has yet been able to propose will result in a user
getting suddenly sucked into a parallel antimatter universe (beer - flat,
pizza - cold) but every one-pointer content to sit back and wait for that to
happen is gambling that he or she will be able to flawlessly actuate a hand
operated release in the event of a rare but frequently fatal low level lockout.
With respect to the annual replacement of side wires...
2002, draught, nobody could force a glider down all summer long.
2003, ninety days and ninety nights, nobody could get a glider out of the
garage all summer long.
John Heiney/Kevin Carter/flight park trainer/Tad Eareckson/Training Hill Susie
Owens Valley/Torrey Pines
One size fits all?
If there's really something relevant about the time it takes this planet to
spin around the sun one time shouldn't the other wires be replaced too?
Yeah, I RTFM but when I see a figure and have a good idea there was a dart
board somewhere nearby at the time it was derived I take it with a block of
salt. If any of my wires fails it will do so in the setup area.
$15 pacifiers
Tad,
One pilot in the Texas Open had three premature releases in a row with
glider damage on all three and different degrees of pilot injury. I myself
have had a low level release that caused minor injury.
When you are discussing the acceptable risk of a premature release.....take
the blinders off man. It is a real risk that should be minimized and not
taken lightly. The arrogant assumption that you are a)quicker b)better or
c)more skilled then "the other guy" could get you hurt. If you have
recently had a lockout at altitude I hate to burst your bubble of denial,
but you aren't as good as you think you are, and maybe playing test pilot is
a bad idea. It doesn't matter how long ago you picked up a glider, be it 30
years, 15, or less. Your knowledge will always be limited when compared to
the collective power of the larger society. If you still have doubts about
how many injuries have occurred due to a low level loss of tow force, then
do the research. Call up Wallaby, call up Quest, call up Lookout Mountain
just as starting points.
It sounds like maybe the only thing you fear down low is convective
turbulence. For kicks don the test pilot hat and go fly your glider into
the prop wash or wing turbulence of a tug when you are anywhere below VNE
close to the ground. Hang on and pray the cleanup crew knows to clear your
glider and throw a bicycle at you before EMS arrives.
I can play chicken with a train knowing my legs will get me out of harms way
almost every time. Doesn't mean you need to put yourself in danger by
playing on railroad tracks.
Tad, sorry to be the dick here but I HAVE to give you a hard time. Clearly
any improvement in release design is a great thing. My personal issue comes
from your overconfidence in the superiority of an untested system as well as
a cavalier attitude about risks you don't respect. One of the reasons there
are not more injuries due to low release is because the current crop of
releases rarely FAIL that way. Put a handful of new pilots on a hair
trigger system and pull up a couch and some beers because the Ground Pounder
Olympics are just about to begin. The standards need to be raised when you
are talking about selling some rig to other pilots.
Get a few hundred or even a few thousand test flights on your system and
then I won't cringe to claims of grandeur and superiority.
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: TadErcksn@aol.com [mailto:TadErcksn@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:27 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: $15 pacifiers
I don't consider a pilot plowing in as a result of not maintaining airspeed
after (or before) prematurely releasing from tow at low level to be an
accident
attributable to the timing of the separation. If I believed that my health
was highly dependent on the integrity of a loop of one millimeter diameter
fishing line I'd probably spend more time at the movie theater on weekends.
I apologize if I'm wrong, Kevin, but I would really like to hear of an
account in which someone was hurt doing nothing wrong solely due to a
premature
release.
One pilot in the Texas Open had three premature releases in a row with
glider damage on all three and different degrees of pilot injury. I myself
have had a low level release that caused minor injury.
When you are discussing the acceptable risk of a premature release.....take
the blinders off man. It is a real risk that should be minimized and not
taken lightly. The arrogant assumption that you are a)quicker b)better or
c)more skilled then "the other guy" could get you hurt. If you have
recently had a lockout at altitude I hate to burst your bubble of denial,
but you aren't as good as you think you are, and maybe playing test pilot is
a bad idea. It doesn't matter how long ago you picked up a glider, be it 30
years, 15, or less. Your knowledge will always be limited when compared to
the collective power of the larger society. If you still have doubts about
how many injuries have occurred due to a low level loss of tow force, then
do the research. Call up Wallaby, call up Quest, call up Lookout Mountain
just as starting points.
It sounds like maybe the only thing you fear down low is convective
turbulence. For kicks don the test pilot hat and go fly your glider into
the prop wash or wing turbulence of a tug when you are anywhere below VNE
close to the ground. Hang on and pray the cleanup crew knows to clear your
glider and throw a bicycle at you before EMS arrives.
I can play chicken with a train knowing my legs will get me out of harms way
almost every time. Doesn't mean you need to put yourself in danger by
playing on railroad tracks.
Tad, sorry to be the dick here but I HAVE to give you a hard time. Clearly
any improvement in release design is a great thing. My personal issue comes
from your overconfidence in the superiority of an untested system as well as
a cavalier attitude about risks you don't respect. One of the reasons there
are not more injuries due to low release is because the current crop of
releases rarely FAIL that way. Put a handful of new pilots on a hair
trigger system and pull up a couch and some beers because the Ground Pounder
Olympics are just about to begin. The standards need to be raised when you
are talking about selling some rig to other pilots.
Get a few hundred or even a few thousand test flights on your system and
then I won't cringe to claims of grandeur and superiority.
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: TadErcksn@aol.com [mailto:TadErcksn@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:27 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: $15 pacifiers
I don't consider a pilot plowing in as a result of not maintaining airspeed
after (or before) prematurely releasing from tow at low level to be an
accident
attributable to the timing of the separation. If I believed that my health
was highly dependent on the integrity of a loop of one millimeter diameter
fishing line I'd probably spend more time at the movie theater on weekends.
I apologize if I'm wrong, Kevin, but I would really like to hear of an
account in which someone was hurt doing nothing wrong solely due to a
premature
release.
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
$15 pacifiers
Kevin,
Thanks much for taking the time to be the dick and throw some thoughtful
dialog out there (as opposed to the "Tad's full o' shit" approach).
I concede that I wasn't thinking prop wash and vortices when I made that
statement regarding premature releases and was wrong in that regard.
The point I meant to convey, however, is that one has to keep the cart long
enough to come off with enough speed to safely stop the glider and continue
flying with enough speed to handle things regardless of what happens to the tug,
its Rotax, or a weak link at either end of the operation.
This is a digression, however, because neither of the releases under
discussion is in any way prone to premature function and I'm really sorry I allowed
myself to be drawn into this irrelevant discussion.
I don't assume that I'm quicker, better, or more skilled than the other guy
(and I don't think that I've written anything to give that impression). Just
the opposite actually. I'm an old, slow, marginally competent klutz who knows
that quicker, better, and more skilled, occasionally professional pilots get
killed in low level lockouts. That's one reason (another being that I find
engineering challenges interesting) I've spent an enormous amount of time
developing release systems to make them as brain dead easy and reliable as possible.
I also shoot for clean, small, strong, and light.
Neither of these systems can be described in any way as untested. Stop by
the hangar sometime with whatever you can buy off the shelf, stopwatch, fishing
scale, winch, blindfold, gloves, and a quarter of a ton of barbell weights and
let's compare notes.
I most assuredly do not have a cavalier attitude about the risks. Steve and
I believe everybody else does.
Collective knowledge is great but I'm not sure it has any bearing on
collective wisdom. Sabotage was not the biggest threat to the aircraft at Hickam
Field. Dorsal fins at Atlantic beaches were not what we should have had our
attention focused on five summers ago. A snatch-the-goodie-bag-off
-the-traffic-cone game was probably not the best idea for a glider competition sideshow.
(Don't get me started on the Mississippi River ecosystem thing.) With respect to
the larger aforementioned issues anyway, there were a few sharp individuals
who were screaming this stuff but collective stupidity seems to be the horse on
which to bet every time.
Sometimes it pays to listen to the sociopaths.
In the early eighties I was extremely interested in an article some guy named
Donnell Hewett published in the national magazine to introduce the concept of
center of mass towing. The three articles he announced would follow never
appeared. The USHGA BOD had determined the guy was a dangerous heretic based
upon the "Thou shalt bolt thy tow attachments to the apex and control bar
corners" Commandment and, without a word to the membership, shredded the remaining
articles. My 1980 KHK instructor roommate was one of the people killed
following the collective wisdom. I've always wondered how many people died as a res
ult of that censorship.
I see the same thing - on a smaller scale - happening now. "A release
actuator isn't a quarter inch button between your fingers or a strand of 205
leechline between your teeth - it's a big chunk of metal you reach out and grab
somewhere."
On 2004/06/24 a patron of Hang Glide Chicago died with his spinnaker shackle
closed. I harvested Arlan Birkett's contact info 'cause I wanted to find out
where the brake lever was mounted. In my post 2005/08/31 I referenced serious
accidents here and in Chicago and Australia. Three days later that e-mail
address became obsolete along with it's owner's student in a situation in which
I SPECULATE - based on an intact weak link and broken towline - involved a
closed spinnaker shackle.
Bill Bennett/Mike DelSignore, unnamed Cushing Field student, Arlan
Birkett/Jeremiah and I don't know anything about the release setups because nobody
thinks this stuff is important enough to even mention in the stuff that tends to
get circulated. Can anybody help me out? (Joe?)
I saw my first shackle/cable lanyard AT release (essentially a Lookout job)
on 1991/08/02 at the Currituck stop of the Dragonfly promo tour. I believe
Wallaby's brake lever variation came out about three years later. And that's
about where things have stagnated ever since. If there was as much hostility to
innovation in glider design as there seems to be with respect releases we'd
all be standing in line to get the 2005 4.2:1 supership.
The decision modify for use with a cable lanyard a spinnaker shackle designed
to be used with leechline was a wrong dead-end evolutionary turn ("The
Panda's Thumb"). That's the way we do it 'cause that's the way we do it.
You caught a glimpse of my two point system two years ago shortly after one
of my less fortunate landings (it looks better when the starboard downtube
isn't folded in half). I'll stick my neck out - It's the best. Aside from a
couple of early performance envelope pushing adjustments I made and my realization
that, since this season's reduction of the lanyard diameter, the latch on the
spinnaker shackle must be checked after engaging the weak link (a preflight
issue) there's never been a premature release (almost one time when Juan Sonen
waved to me during climb out). It's got a 100% reliability record, blows with
a twist of the left hand, and has had excellent peer review from folks from
Ridgely, to Currituck, to Quest and Wallaby, to Orange. (You're a Wills Wing
guy now, right? Get Rob's evaluation of my stuff.)
In addition to zillions of well documented bench tests, to date the full
system has been up about 62 times and 56 before that in earlier evolutionary
forms. If you're waiting for this individual to rack up hundreds or thousands of
flights... sorry, I'm not going to live that long (but it won't be because the
release didn't work). But, in the meantime, I believe people have died and
continue to do so 'cause they've got to hunt, peck, and pray.
What we've got here is... Nobody's gonna incorporate it if we don't have
thousands of flights worth of data and we can't get thousands of flights worth of
data if nobody incorporates it. Remind anyone of a Joseph Heller novel?
In addition to Steve and me, Scott, Jim, Joe Schad, and you have conceded
that there may be room for improvement over what we've got. How is that ever
going to happen this way?
I don't agree that you need thousands of test flights to prove these things.
I'm not clever enough to determine on the ground a trim point on the keel but
I am clever enough to start from the suspension point and work forward. I've
been working on release systems for years and I still don't know of anything
that can happen in the air that can't be predicted on the ground, but I'd be
thrilled if someone can enlighten me with respect to an actual or hypothetical
case.
Some things you can just look at. You don't need to send scores of teenagers
flying through the windshield to figure out that shoulder belts are probably
a pretty good idea. World War I pilots were sent up without parachutes for
incredibly stupid reasons. Parts of these systems come out on top on the basis
of grade school arithmetic.
With respect to the one point release... The regular half of the thing has
been in use for, I'd guess, at least tens (probably hundreds) of thousands of
aerotow launches. The other half is a truck tow release that's been in heavy
use since long before the Dragonfly pupated.
It's not hair trigger. Steve's been using a three string. Mine transmits
half that tension through the trigger line. All you gotta do is keep your mouth
lightly shut for a hundred feet or two.
My two point system isn't hair trigger either. That line of experimentation
ended after one short flight.
I previously hinted that maybe the CHGPA should take a look at these systems.
There are tons of flying, engineering, and physics talent in this neck of
the woods and I believe there used to be some sort of safety component to the
club's mission. That proposal has been met with deafening silence to date.
With respect to flying...
I make a couple of small safety compromises. I don't spend any more time on
the cart than I feel I have to 'cause I don't want to make whichever poor
bastard is stuck with the job walk any farther than necessary. And, unless the
conditions are rough, I use the VG to make things easier on the tug.
Unfortunately my glider has two settings - off and on. Kinda wished it had been off at
2400' on 2005/09/10 but there hadn't been any problems during the ascent prior
to that.
But I've also been thrown on my ear with the VG off in hot thermal conditions
in which the Highland crew was towing all comers and I don't believe there
would have been anything anyone could have done about it. I'll check with some
of my betters (there's lots of them) for other opinions but I'm sure they
occasionally get thrown on their ears too.
I do hope we both end up at Ridgely on the same day sometime. I've been
amazed at your meteoric rise and blown away by your accounts of your typical
flights. I rather took a liking to you the evening before the only time we crossed
paths when you posted about glider racks, faired downtubes, and miles per
gallon (I'm not the only one!!!!! (must be related to our bicycle backgrounds)).
My racks are worth a new look - there've been a few major improvements since
you last saw the setup.
I'm rather sure that if you take a look at these release systems you'll reach
the obvious conclusion that many others have and help me get a few more
lifeboats on deck as we continue plowing through this ice field.
Thanks much for taking the time to be the dick and throw some thoughtful
dialog out there (as opposed to the "Tad's full o' shit" approach).
I concede that I wasn't thinking prop wash and vortices when I made that
statement regarding premature releases and was wrong in that regard.
The point I meant to convey, however, is that one has to keep the cart long
enough to come off with enough speed to safely stop the glider and continue
flying with enough speed to handle things regardless of what happens to the tug,
its Rotax, or a weak link at either end of the operation.
This is a digression, however, because neither of the releases under
discussion is in any way prone to premature function and I'm really sorry I allowed
myself to be drawn into this irrelevant discussion.
I don't assume that I'm quicker, better, or more skilled than the other guy
(and I don't think that I've written anything to give that impression). Just
the opposite actually. I'm an old, slow, marginally competent klutz who knows
that quicker, better, and more skilled, occasionally professional pilots get
killed in low level lockouts. That's one reason (another being that I find
engineering challenges interesting) I've spent an enormous amount of time
developing release systems to make them as brain dead easy and reliable as possible.
I also shoot for clean, small, strong, and light.
Neither of these systems can be described in any way as untested. Stop by
the hangar sometime with whatever you can buy off the shelf, stopwatch, fishing
scale, winch, blindfold, gloves, and a quarter of a ton of barbell weights and
let's compare notes.
I most assuredly do not have a cavalier attitude about the risks. Steve and
I believe everybody else does.
Collective knowledge is great but I'm not sure it has any bearing on
collective wisdom. Sabotage was not the biggest threat to the aircraft at Hickam
Field. Dorsal fins at Atlantic beaches were not what we should have had our
attention focused on five summers ago. A snatch-the-goodie-bag-off
-the-traffic-cone game was probably not the best idea for a glider competition sideshow.
(Don't get me started on the Mississippi River ecosystem thing.) With respect to
the larger aforementioned issues anyway, there were a few sharp individuals
who were screaming this stuff but collective stupidity seems to be the horse on
which to bet every time.
Sometimes it pays to listen to the sociopaths.
In the early eighties I was extremely interested in an article some guy named
Donnell Hewett published in the national magazine to introduce the concept of
center of mass towing. The three articles he announced would follow never
appeared. The USHGA BOD had determined the guy was a dangerous heretic based
upon the "Thou shalt bolt thy tow attachments to the apex and control bar
corners" Commandment and, without a word to the membership, shredded the remaining
articles. My 1980 KHK instructor roommate was one of the people killed
following the collective wisdom. I've always wondered how many people died as a res
ult of that censorship.
I see the same thing - on a smaller scale - happening now. "A release
actuator isn't a quarter inch button between your fingers or a strand of 205
leechline between your teeth - it's a big chunk of metal you reach out and grab
somewhere."
On 2004/06/24 a patron of Hang Glide Chicago died with his spinnaker shackle
closed. I harvested Arlan Birkett's contact info 'cause I wanted to find out
where the brake lever was mounted. In my post 2005/08/31 I referenced serious
accidents here and in Chicago and Australia. Three days later that e-mail
address became obsolete along with it's owner's student in a situation in which
I SPECULATE - based on an intact weak link and broken towline - involved a
closed spinnaker shackle.
Bill Bennett/Mike DelSignore, unnamed Cushing Field student, Arlan
Birkett/Jeremiah and I don't know anything about the release setups because nobody
thinks this stuff is important enough to even mention in the stuff that tends to
get circulated. Can anybody help me out? (Joe?)
I saw my first shackle/cable lanyard AT release (essentially a Lookout job)
on 1991/08/02 at the Currituck stop of the Dragonfly promo tour. I believe
Wallaby's brake lever variation came out about three years later. And that's
about where things have stagnated ever since. If there was as much hostility to
innovation in glider design as there seems to be with respect releases we'd
all be standing in line to get the 2005 4.2:1 supership.
The decision modify for use with a cable lanyard a spinnaker shackle designed
to be used with leechline was a wrong dead-end evolutionary turn ("The
Panda's Thumb"). That's the way we do it 'cause that's the way we do it.
You caught a glimpse of my two point system two years ago shortly after one
of my less fortunate landings (it looks better when the starboard downtube
isn't folded in half). I'll stick my neck out - It's the best. Aside from a
couple of early performance envelope pushing adjustments I made and my realization
that, since this season's reduction of the lanyard diameter, the latch on the
spinnaker shackle must be checked after engaging the weak link (a preflight
issue) there's never been a premature release (almost one time when Juan Sonen
waved to me during climb out). It's got a 100% reliability record, blows with
a twist of the left hand, and has had excellent peer review from folks from
Ridgely, to Currituck, to Quest and Wallaby, to Orange. (You're a Wills Wing
guy now, right? Get Rob's evaluation of my stuff.)
In addition to zillions of well documented bench tests, to date the full
system has been up about 62 times and 56 before that in earlier evolutionary
forms. If you're waiting for this individual to rack up hundreds or thousands of
flights... sorry, I'm not going to live that long (but it won't be because the
release didn't work). But, in the meantime, I believe people have died and
continue to do so 'cause they've got to hunt, peck, and pray.
What we've got here is... Nobody's gonna incorporate it if we don't have
thousands of flights worth of data and we can't get thousands of flights worth of
data if nobody incorporates it. Remind anyone of a Joseph Heller novel?
In addition to Steve and me, Scott, Jim, Joe Schad, and you have conceded
that there may be room for improvement over what we've got. How is that ever
going to happen this way?
I don't agree that you need thousands of test flights to prove these things.
I'm not clever enough to determine on the ground a trim point on the keel but
I am clever enough to start from the suspension point and work forward. I've
been working on release systems for years and I still don't know of anything
that can happen in the air that can't be predicted on the ground, but I'd be
thrilled if someone can enlighten me with respect to an actual or hypothetical
case.
Some things you can just look at. You don't need to send scores of teenagers
flying through the windshield to figure out that shoulder belts are probably
a pretty good idea. World War I pilots were sent up without parachutes for
incredibly stupid reasons. Parts of these systems come out on top on the basis
of grade school arithmetic.
With respect to the one point release... The regular half of the thing has
been in use for, I'd guess, at least tens (probably hundreds) of thousands of
aerotow launches. The other half is a truck tow release that's been in heavy
use since long before the Dragonfly pupated.
It's not hair trigger. Steve's been using a three string. Mine transmits
half that tension through the trigger line. All you gotta do is keep your mouth
lightly shut for a hundred feet or two.
My two point system isn't hair trigger either. That line of experimentation
ended after one short flight.
I previously hinted that maybe the CHGPA should take a look at these systems.
There are tons of flying, engineering, and physics talent in this neck of
the woods and I believe there used to be some sort of safety component to the
club's mission. That proposal has been met with deafening silence to date.
With respect to flying...
I make a couple of small safety compromises. I don't spend any more time on
the cart than I feel I have to 'cause I don't want to make whichever poor
bastard is stuck with the job walk any farther than necessary. And, unless the
conditions are rough, I use the VG to make things easier on the tug.
Unfortunately my glider has two settings - off and on. Kinda wished it had been off at
2400' on 2005/09/10 but there hadn't been any problems during the ascent prior
to that.
But I've also been thrown on my ear with the VG off in hot thermal conditions
in which the Highland crew was towing all comers and I don't believe there
would have been anything anyone could have done about it. I'll check with some
of my betters (there's lots of them) for other opinions but I'm sure they
occasionally get thrown on their ears too.
I do hope we both end up at Ridgely on the same day sometime. I've been
amazed at your meteoric rise and blown away by your accounts of your typical
flights. I rather took a liking to you the evening before the only time we crossed
paths when you posted about glider racks, faired downtubes, and miles per
gallon (I'm not the only one!!!!! (must be related to our bicycle backgrounds)).
My racks are worth a new look - there've been a few major improvements since
you last saw the setup.
I'm rather sure that if you take a look at these release systems you'll reach
the obvious conclusion that many others have and help me get a few more
lifeboats on deck as we continue plowing through this ice field.
Re: $15 pacifiers
[quote="MikeBalk"]I have had the problem of the gate not opening. Does this mean I have an
older model? What did they change? I believe I have a recent model -- it
is held at a slight angle, so that in theory, there should always be
pressure on the gate, not on the hinge. I also make sure that I have the
gate part opening down to reduce the likelyhood of haning up. But it still
happens.
Any fixes? Does the Lookout release still use the same spinaker release?
-Mike
[endquote]
It sounds like you're doing everything I did, but my problem went away. Tad suggests running another line from the hinge to the nose to ensure the gate is held in the right position. Maybe you should try that?
older model? What did they change? I believe I have a recent model -- it
is held at a slight angle, so that in theory, there should always be
pressure on the gate, not on the hinge. I also make sure that I have the
gate part opening down to reduce the likelyhood of haning up. But it still
happens.
Any fixes? Does the Lookout release still use the same spinaker release?
-Mike
[endquote]
It sounds like you're doing everything I did, but my problem went away. Tad suggests running another line from the hinge to the nose to ensure the gate is held in the right position. Maybe you should try that?
Brian Vant-Hull
$15 pacifiers
Yea, I am sorry I was an agro ass about it, felt guilty later. Just want to
open dialogue. Clearly there is room for improvement with what we are
currently using.
We all dream of coming off the cart with perfect speed every time but in our
real world of average people, that doesn't always happen.
Stay safe and keep working on making it better for us all.
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: TadErcksn@aol.com [mailto:TadErcksn@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 12:50 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: $15 pacifiers
Kevin,
Thanks much for taking the time to be the dick and throw some thoughtful
dialog out there (as opposed to the "Tad's full o' shit" approach).
I concede that I wasn't thinking prop wash and vortices when I made that
statement regarding premature releases and was wrong in that regard.
The point I meant to convey, however, is that one has to keep the cart long
enough to come off with enough speed to safely stop the glider and continue
flying with enough speed to handle things regardless of what happens to the
tug,
its Rotax, or a weak link at either end of the operation.
open dialogue. Clearly there is room for improvement with what we are
currently using.
We all dream of coming off the cart with perfect speed every time but in our
real world of average people, that doesn't always happen.
Stay safe and keep working on making it better for us all.
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: TadErcksn@aol.com [mailto:TadErcksn@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 12:50 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: $15 pacifiers
Kevin,
Thanks much for taking the time to be the dick and throw some thoughtful
dialog out there (as opposed to the "Tad's full o' shit" approach).
I concede that I wasn't thinking prop wash and vortices when I made that
statement regarding premature releases and was wrong in that regard.
The point I meant to convey, however, is that one has to keep the cart long
enough to come off with enough speed to safely stop the glider and continue
flying with enough speed to handle things regardless of what happens to the
tug,
its Rotax, or a weak link at either end of the operation.
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
$15 pacifiers
Thanks for the reply, Kevin. No need for an apology - really did and do
appreciate your input. Any rough spots surfaced only as a result of
misinterpretation of points I was trying to make, one of which wasn't stated very well.
And that dialog you opened up crystallized a position for me - but it's really
going to run counter to conventional wisdom.
First off (anybody still listening out there?)... I'm calling for reports of
any instance of a surprise in the air relating to a release system (hand,
winch, scooter, truck, step, AT, balloon, you name it) that wasn't predictable on
the ground.
Since, aside from loading and trim, release systems have absolutely nothing
to do with aerodynamics, the number of responses which I will get back which
meet the criterion will be a bit less than the apparent interest in preventing
needless towing deaths - zero.
We've known the basics of how to do this stuff since the duct tape was
quietly and slowly pulled off of Donnell Hewett's mouth a couple of decades ago.
EVERYTHING can be tested and demonstrated on the ground BETTER than it can in
the air. It's all loads, physics, mechanics, and ergonomics.
WATRMA
The best two point AT system designer on the planet is (drum roll) me. The
best one point concept guy is (drum roll) Steve. Therefore, I am hereby
appointing ourselves (Steve doesn't know this yet)
Co-Emporers-Until-Somebody-Comes-Along-With-Something-Better of the World Aerotow Release Manufacturers
Association.
Constitution
Any Co-Emporer, Member, Release System, or Bylaw may be fed into a chipper at
any time based on actual data or a rational argument.
Bylaws
01 - Membership
Nerds will be welcomed into the Association with open arms and no questions
asked, pilots with be scrutinized with deep suspicion in an atmosphere of open
hostility.
02 - Ground Testing
Any release system submitted for certification shall have the hell tested out
of it in excess of weak link loads and with respect to all worst case
scenarios.
03 - Flight Testing
The number of test flights required to demonstrate what we already know shall
be:
ONE
and shall complete the certification process.
04 - Superstition
Demonstrably superior systems shall not be shunned in favor of ones older and
demonstrably dangerous based upon the "potential evil spirits" argument.
05 - Protocol
The use of demonstrably dangerous systems when superior cost effective
systems and modifications are readily available is condemned in the strongest terms.
I'm not entirely kidding about this. We know how to certify hang gliders.
Release systems are barely visible on the relative complexity scale and I know
how to certify them as well as anyone else out there (and it ain't that
difficult).
Rambling on...
I have had further communications with Steve, picked up a few more details,
and been granted permission to throw the lower half of his right leg to the
wolves in order to restore the reputation of his release concept to the pedestal
upon which it deservedly belongs.
I only know some particulars of two premature release incidents. One
involved an insecure attachment of his handiwork to a tow loop. The other involved
the assembly I had provided him a week prior to its brief flight.
Although I believe he checked the latter out pretty thoroughly in the
armchair at home he made a last minute swap in the staging area and didn't check it
out with respect to his harness until the carabiner clipped shut around his
bridle. He bit off way too much trigger line, knew he had a problem immediately
when the tow line was tensioned, and could have easily aborted before the
cart's front wheels had rolled a quarter of a turn. The adjustment of the
adapters never got the chance to become an issue and probably wouldn't have been. I
may have, in fact created a one-size-fits-all.
In any case, I disassembled the adapters and replaced them with a pair that
can be easily adjusted on the cart so that a flight can be gotten off before
they are replaced with a fixed pair.
A little zinger opportunity I missed before... Kevin has documented that bad
things can happen after premature releases but I'm not hearing the thunder of
the stampede resulting from the movement away from curved pin barrel releases.
I've just done some quantitative testing on the four string mechanism and
been totally blown away by the results. At weak link loading the tension on the
trigger string is less than a tenth of what I can fairly comfortably hold in
my teeth, yet the thing will blow at about 30 pounds of tow tension. This is
magnitudes better than I had hoped for. The entire deluxe edition one point
assembly from titanium snap shackle to titanium snap shackle weighs in at under
an ounce and three quarters and fits in your pocket with no opening for a wise
crack from Mae West.
Scott - got a little wager for you.
Send Holly's basetube in for metallurgical analysis. If they don't find in
the grip areas traces of gold and uranium resulting from the fusion of aluminum
atoms I'll buy you a new 5030.
Based on the fact that she's a terrestrial mammal with an opposable thumb and
may have one percent of my cowardice DNA I'm guessing that neither hand ever
came off of the basetube. I'm also guessing that hands never came off of the
control frame in the other accidents we've been discussing lately. I think
you have to be real comfortable flying upside down to be able have a chance at
functioning properly in a situation like that.
You're talking about practicing to become proficient on obsolete second and
third rate systems.
"Both releases have to be instinctive..."
Your instinct is going to be to fly the glider and that's going to override
everything else. Join Darth - uh, STEVE and me and you can fly the glider AND
separate yourself from the string that's about to kill you.
Listening Audience - The reason Steve isn't posting anymore is 'cause he
knows the same thing I do. That none of this conversation, data, or logic is
gonna make any difference whatsoever, screwdrivers will continue to be needed to
pry placebo loops from cold dead fingers, brake levers will stay on downtubes,
and I'm totally wasting my time (currently crunching SETI Work Unit No. 683 -
not having much luck in other parts of the galaxy either). Somebody prove us
wrong.
appreciate your input. Any rough spots surfaced only as a result of
misinterpretation of points I was trying to make, one of which wasn't stated very well.
And that dialog you opened up crystallized a position for me - but it's really
going to run counter to conventional wisdom.
First off (anybody still listening out there?)... I'm calling for reports of
any instance of a surprise in the air relating to a release system (hand,
winch, scooter, truck, step, AT, balloon, you name it) that wasn't predictable on
the ground.
Since, aside from loading and trim, release systems have absolutely nothing
to do with aerodynamics, the number of responses which I will get back which
meet the criterion will be a bit less than the apparent interest in preventing
needless towing deaths - zero.
We've known the basics of how to do this stuff since the duct tape was
quietly and slowly pulled off of Donnell Hewett's mouth a couple of decades ago.
EVERYTHING can be tested and demonstrated on the ground BETTER than it can in
the air. It's all loads, physics, mechanics, and ergonomics.
WATRMA
The best two point AT system designer on the planet is (drum roll) me. The
best one point concept guy is (drum roll) Steve. Therefore, I am hereby
appointing ourselves (Steve doesn't know this yet)
Co-Emporers-Until-Somebody-Comes-Along-With-Something-Better of the World Aerotow Release Manufacturers
Association.
Constitution
Any Co-Emporer, Member, Release System, or Bylaw may be fed into a chipper at
any time based on actual data or a rational argument.
Bylaws
01 - Membership
Nerds will be welcomed into the Association with open arms and no questions
asked, pilots with be scrutinized with deep suspicion in an atmosphere of open
hostility.
02 - Ground Testing
Any release system submitted for certification shall have the hell tested out
of it in excess of weak link loads and with respect to all worst case
scenarios.
03 - Flight Testing
The number of test flights required to demonstrate what we already know shall
be:
ONE
and shall complete the certification process.
04 - Superstition
Demonstrably superior systems shall not be shunned in favor of ones older and
demonstrably dangerous based upon the "potential evil spirits" argument.
05 - Protocol
The use of demonstrably dangerous systems when superior cost effective
systems and modifications are readily available is condemned in the strongest terms.
I'm not entirely kidding about this. We know how to certify hang gliders.
Release systems are barely visible on the relative complexity scale and I know
how to certify them as well as anyone else out there (and it ain't that
difficult).
Rambling on...
I have had further communications with Steve, picked up a few more details,
and been granted permission to throw the lower half of his right leg to the
wolves in order to restore the reputation of his release concept to the pedestal
upon which it deservedly belongs.
I only know some particulars of two premature release incidents. One
involved an insecure attachment of his handiwork to a tow loop. The other involved
the assembly I had provided him a week prior to its brief flight.
Although I believe he checked the latter out pretty thoroughly in the
armchair at home he made a last minute swap in the staging area and didn't check it
out with respect to his harness until the carabiner clipped shut around his
bridle. He bit off way too much trigger line, knew he had a problem immediately
when the tow line was tensioned, and could have easily aborted before the
cart's front wheels had rolled a quarter of a turn. The adjustment of the
adapters never got the chance to become an issue and probably wouldn't have been. I
may have, in fact created a one-size-fits-all.
In any case, I disassembled the adapters and replaced them with a pair that
can be easily adjusted on the cart so that a flight can be gotten off before
they are replaced with a fixed pair.
A little zinger opportunity I missed before... Kevin has documented that bad
things can happen after premature releases but I'm not hearing the thunder of
the stampede resulting from the movement away from curved pin barrel releases.
I've just done some quantitative testing on the four string mechanism and
been totally blown away by the results. At weak link loading the tension on the
trigger string is less than a tenth of what I can fairly comfortably hold in
my teeth, yet the thing will blow at about 30 pounds of tow tension. This is
magnitudes better than I had hoped for. The entire deluxe edition one point
assembly from titanium snap shackle to titanium snap shackle weighs in at under
an ounce and three quarters and fits in your pocket with no opening for a wise
crack from Mae West.
Scott - got a little wager for you.
Send Holly's basetube in for metallurgical analysis. If they don't find in
the grip areas traces of gold and uranium resulting from the fusion of aluminum
atoms I'll buy you a new 5030.
Based on the fact that she's a terrestrial mammal with an opposable thumb and
may have one percent of my cowardice DNA I'm guessing that neither hand ever
came off of the basetube. I'm also guessing that hands never came off of the
control frame in the other accidents we've been discussing lately. I think
you have to be real comfortable flying upside down to be able have a chance at
functioning properly in a situation like that.
You're talking about practicing to become proficient on obsolete second and
third rate systems.
"Both releases have to be instinctive..."
Your instinct is going to be to fly the glider and that's going to override
everything else. Join Darth - uh, STEVE and me and you can fly the glider AND
separate yourself from the string that's about to kill you.
Listening Audience - The reason Steve isn't posting anymore is 'cause he
knows the same thing I do. That none of this conversation, data, or logic is
gonna make any difference whatsoever, screwdrivers will continue to be needed to
pry placebo loops from cold dead fingers, brake levers will stay on downtubes,
and I'm totally wasting my time (currently crunching SETI Work Unit No. 683 -
not having much luck in other parts of the galaxy either). Somebody prove us
wrong.
$15 pacifiers
Many releases fail in the air when the pilot hangs too
low or angles the body too low and the basetube
interferes with the release.
On the ground it is not always obvious how AOA, tow
position, and body position are going to conspire to
take away what seems like adequate spacing between the
release and the basetube.
Kev C
> First off (anybody still listening out there?)...
> I'm calling for reports of
> any instance of a surprise in the air relating to a
> release system (hand,
> winch, scooter, truck, step, AT, balloon, you name
> it) that wasn't predictable on
> the ground.
>
low or angles the body too low and the basetube
interferes with the release.
On the ground it is not always obvious how AOA, tow
position, and body position are going to conspire to
take away what seems like adequate spacing between the
release and the basetube.
Kev C
> First off (anybody still listening out there?)...
> I'm calling for reports of
> any instance of a surprise in the air relating to a
> release system (hand,
> winch, scooter, truck, step, AT, balloon, you name
> it) that wasn't predictable on
> the ground.
>
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
$15 pacifiers
Thanks, Kevin, for taking the time to read, think, and respond and also (I
apologize for the smart-ass tone to follow but it's the best I can do) for
helping make my point for me.
(I would reword the beginning of your statement to read "Many releases
work..." but I don't want to stir up that hornets' nest again.)
Houston has known since the first Bailey was drug across the first basetube
("Doh!") that we've had a problem (one at least minimized, if not eliminated,
by my straight pin barrel releases). This was before - and most assuredly is
now - predictable and testable without putting a glider in the air (note Bylaw
02 in previous post). Extreme angles and loads we can do - easily.
Now go to the back of the line and give one of the nerds a chance. (Got
anything, Brian?)
I'm predicting that that was the high water mark for response candidates.
Although the appearance and streamlining is simpler and cleaner than anything
else out there, I am flying the most complex (but still simple) two point
system on the planet. With the incorporation of the four string I've lately
swapped in to replace my starboard barrel release we're talking around 80
components. Surprises, problems, unknown hazards aloft - ZERO.
EVERYTHING (I repeat) can be predicted on the ground. It's nothing but
angles limited by the basetube and nose wires and loads starting at zero and
limited by the weak link.
Now to mess with your heads a little...
There are two types of releases in the world. The Association's and
everybody else's. So far, all the death and destruction has happened on everyone
else's. What would be going on if, instead, my stuff had been involved with
Frank, Bill/Mike, John Cushing Field Doe, Holly, Arlan/Jeremiah? I almost had a
stake driven through my heart 'cause Steve screwed the pooch and popped off
early (under the circumstances - late, actually).
I'm getting halfway serious about this certification business and have had
some preliminary thoughts.
The stuff that currently makes the cut includes:
my two point AT system
a version of the above minus the stored energy option - nah, probably not
the one point assembly of my design incorporating Steve's concept
my truck tow assembly (yeah, I'm dropping the "Aero" part of it)
the Keller/Koch two stage
my balloon system (yeah, I'm amending "Lift" to "Tow")
and, possibly, in an emergency:
a modification of the Lookout release
The German barrel release which allows for one hand release in a slack line
situation looks interesting but there was a reliability issue last I heard.
Here's some of the stuff that flunks:
anything that fails to exploit a finger or incisor on the trigger option
crap engineering
anything that's second best
any truck tow release in which the lanyard is attached to the wrist or
shoulder strap
anything that compromises safety to save a few bucks
With respect to that last point... I'm guessing that nowadays more people
are being killed in lockouts than saved by parachutes (at least for folk not
deliberately flying upside down at the time). Assuming I'm right then it may be
that resources are not being allocated in a rational manner (if you die 'cause
you couldn't make your third rate release work when really needed then maybe
you should have spent the $500 on a first rate system and $170 on the silk).
I've had some further thoughts concerning the use of Steve's release in
conjunction with a two point system.
It would be really, really bad if one were to find oneself in a low level
lockout, release from the bottom end, and experience a bridle wrap - especially
if the trim point is as far forward on the keel as mine is. I'm guessing that
a wrap would be more likely under the high tension which would, by definition,
be present in that situation.
It might make sense, however, to blow the four string as you're working on
actuating the spinnaker shackle. A wrap is still highly unlikely, Plan B is
already underway, and you don't have much left to lose anyway.
I'm leaning towards recommending the four string as part of all two as well
as one point systems.
To reiterate and edit a bit Brian's explanation... Mike - and every other
two pointer - I recommend that the spinnaker shackle be mounted at the trim
point on the keel and tensioned to a short loop installed at the nose. The
tensioning device is a small barrel release which connects a length of leechline via
a noose around the shackle's fixed arm (downstream from the hinge area).
Keep those cards and letters coming in.
apologize for the smart-ass tone to follow but it's the best I can do) for
helping make my point for me.
(I would reword the beginning of your statement to read "Many releases
work..." but I don't want to stir up that hornets' nest again.)
Houston has known since the first Bailey was drug across the first basetube
("Doh!") that we've had a problem (one at least minimized, if not eliminated,
by my straight pin barrel releases). This was before - and most assuredly is
now - predictable and testable without putting a glider in the air (note Bylaw
02 in previous post). Extreme angles and loads we can do - easily.
Now go to the back of the line and give one of the nerds a chance. (Got
anything, Brian?)
I'm predicting that that was the high water mark for response candidates.
Although the appearance and streamlining is simpler and cleaner than anything
else out there, I am flying the most complex (but still simple) two point
system on the planet. With the incorporation of the four string I've lately
swapped in to replace my starboard barrel release we're talking around 80
components. Surprises, problems, unknown hazards aloft - ZERO.
EVERYTHING (I repeat) can be predicted on the ground. It's nothing but
angles limited by the basetube and nose wires and loads starting at zero and
limited by the weak link.
Now to mess with your heads a little...
There are two types of releases in the world. The Association's and
everybody else's. So far, all the death and destruction has happened on everyone
else's. What would be going on if, instead, my stuff had been involved with
Frank, Bill/Mike, John Cushing Field Doe, Holly, Arlan/Jeremiah? I almost had a
stake driven through my heart 'cause Steve screwed the pooch and popped off
early (under the circumstances - late, actually).
I'm getting halfway serious about this certification business and have had
some preliminary thoughts.
The stuff that currently makes the cut includes:
my two point AT system
a version of the above minus the stored energy option - nah, probably not
the one point assembly of my design incorporating Steve's concept
my truck tow assembly (yeah, I'm dropping the "Aero" part of it)
the Keller/Koch two stage
my balloon system (yeah, I'm amending "Lift" to "Tow")
and, possibly, in an emergency:
a modification of the Lookout release
The German barrel release which allows for one hand release in a slack line
situation looks interesting but there was a reliability issue last I heard.
Here's some of the stuff that flunks:
anything that fails to exploit a finger or incisor on the trigger option
crap engineering
anything that's second best
any truck tow release in which the lanyard is attached to the wrist or
shoulder strap
anything that compromises safety to save a few bucks
With respect to that last point... I'm guessing that nowadays more people
are being killed in lockouts than saved by parachutes (at least for folk not
deliberately flying upside down at the time). Assuming I'm right then it may be
that resources are not being allocated in a rational manner (if you die 'cause
you couldn't make your third rate release work when really needed then maybe
you should have spent the $500 on a first rate system and $170 on the silk).
I've had some further thoughts concerning the use of Steve's release in
conjunction with a two point system.
It would be really, really bad if one were to find oneself in a low level
lockout, release from the bottom end, and experience a bridle wrap - especially
if the trim point is as far forward on the keel as mine is. I'm guessing that
a wrap would be more likely under the high tension which would, by definition,
be present in that situation.
It might make sense, however, to blow the four string as you're working on
actuating the spinnaker shackle. A wrap is still highly unlikely, Plan B is
already underway, and you don't have much left to lose anyway.
I'm leaning towards recommending the four string as part of all two as well
as one point systems.
To reiterate and edit a bit Brian's explanation... Mike - and every other
two pointer - I recommend that the spinnaker shackle be mounted at the trim
point on the keel and tensioned to a short loop installed at the nose. The
tensioning device is a small barrel release which connects a length of leechline via
a noose around the shackle's fixed arm (downstream from the hinge area).
Keep those cards and letters coming in.
-
Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
$15 pacifiers
All right, already! I submit. Picking up my glider from Steve Wendt
tomorrow (Sunday). Will test fly (with acknowledged-to-be-inferior
Lookout release). Next time I see you at Ridgely, let's make an
appointment to install your release on my glider. - Hugh
On 27 Sep 2005, at 19:41, TadErcksn@aol.com wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply, Kevin. No need for an apology - really did
> and do
> appreciate your input. Any rough spots surfaced only as a result of
> misinterpretation of points I was trying to make, one of which
> wasn't stated very well.
> And that dialog you opened up crystallized a position for me - but
> it's really
> going to run counter to conventional wisdom.
>
> First off (anybody still listening out there?)... I'm calling for
> reports of
> any instance of a surprise in the air relating to a release system
> (hand,
> winch, scooter, truck, step, AT, balloon, you name it) that wasn't
> predictable on
> the ground.
>
> Since, aside from loading and trim, release systems have absolutely
> nothing
> to do with aerodynamics, the number of responses which I will get
> back which
> meet the criterion will be a bit less than the apparent interest in
> preventing
> needless towing deaths - zero.
>
> We've known the basics of how to do this stuff since the duct tape was
> quietly and slowly pulled off of Donnell Hewett's mouth a couple of
> decades ago.
> EVERYTHING can be tested and demonstrated on the ground BETTER than
> it can in
> the air. It's all loads, physics, mechanics, and ergonomics.
>
>
> WATRMA
>
> The best two point AT system designer on the planet is (drum roll)
> me. The
> best one point concept guy is (drum roll) Steve. Therefore, I am
> hereby
> appointing ourselves (Steve doesn't know this yet)
> Co-Emporers-Until-Somebody-Comes-Along-With-Something-Better of the
> World Aerotow Release Manufacturers
> Association.
>
> Constitution
>
> Any Co-Emporer, Member, Release System, or Bylaw may be fed into a
> chipper at
> any time based on actual data or a rational argument.
>
> Bylaws
>
> 01 - Membership
>
> Nerds will be welcomed into the Association with open arms and no
> questions
> asked, pilots with be scrutinized with deep suspicion in an
> atmosphere of open
> hostility.
>
> 02 - Ground Testing
>
> Any release system submitted for certification shall have the hell
> tested out
> of it in excess of weak link loads and with respect to all worst case
> scenarios.
>
> 03 - Flight Testing
>
> The number of test flights required to demonstrate what we already
> know shall
> be:
>
> ONE
>
> and shall complete the certification process.
>
> 04 - Superstition
>
> Demonstrably superior systems shall not be shunned in favor of ones
> older and
> demonstrably dangerous based upon the "potential evil spirits"
> argument.
>
> 05 - Protocol
>
> The use of demonstrably dangerous systems when superior cost effective
> systems and modifications are readily available is condemned in the
> strongest terms.
>
>
> I'm not entirely kidding about this. We know how to certify hang
> gliders.
> Release systems are barely visible on the relative complexity scale
> and I know
> how to certify them as well as anyone else out there (and it ain't
> that
> difficult).
>
> Rambling on...
>
> I have had further communications with Steve, picked up a few more
> details,
> and been granted permission to throw the lower half of his right
> leg to the
> wolves in order to restore the reputation of his release concept to
> the pedestal
> upon which it deservedly belongs.
>
> I only know some particulars of two premature release incidents. One
> involved an insecure attachment of his handiwork to a tow loop.
> The other involved
> the assembly I had provided him a week prior to its brief flight.
>
> Although I believe he checked the latter out pretty thoroughly in the
> armchair at home he made a last minute swap in the staging area and
> didn't check it
> out with respect to his harness until the carabiner clipped shut
> around his
> bridle. He bit off way too much trigger line, knew he had a
> problem immediately
> when the tow line was tensioned, and could have easily aborted
> before the
> cart's front wheels had rolled a quarter of a turn. The adjustment
> of the
> adapters never got the chance to become an issue and probably
> wouldn't have been. I
> may have, in fact created a one-size-fits-all.
>
> In any case, I disassembled the adapters and replaced them with a
> pair that
> can be easily adjusted on the cart so that a flight can be gotten
> off before
> they are replaced with a fixed pair.
>
> A little zinger opportunity I missed before... Kevin has
> documented that bad
> things can happen after premature releases but I'm not hearing the
> thunder of
> the stampede resulting from the movement away from curved pin
> barrel releases.
>
> I've just done some quantitative testing on the four string
> mechanism and
> been totally blown away by the results. At weak link loading the
> tension on the
> trigger string is less than a tenth of what I can fairly
> comfortably hold in
> my teeth, yet the thing will blow at about 30 pounds of tow
> tension. This is
> magnitudes better than I had hoped for. The entire deluxe edition
> one point
> assembly from titanium snap shackle to titanium snap shackle weighs
> in at under
> an ounce and three quarters and fits in your pocket with no opening
> for a wise
> crack from Mae West.
>
> Scott - got a little wager for you.
>
> Send Holly's basetube in for metallurgical analysis. If they don't
> find in
> the grip areas traces of gold and uranium resulting from the fusion
> of aluminum
> atoms I'll buy you a new 5030.
>
> Based on the fact that she's a terrestrial mammal with an opposable
> thumb and
> may have one percent of my cowardice DNA I'm guessing that neither
> hand ever
> came off of the basetube. I'm also guessing that hands never came
> off of the
> control frame in the other accidents we've been discussing lately.
> I think
> you have to be real comfortable flying upside down to be able have
> a chance at
> functioning properly in a situation like that.
>
> You're talking about practicing to become proficient on obsolete
> second and
> third rate systems.
>
> "Both releases have to be instinctive..."
>
> Your instinct is going to be to fly the glider and that's going to
> override
> everything else. Join Darth - uh, STEVE and me and you can fly the
> glider AND
> separate yourself from the string that's about to kill you.
>
> Listening Audience - The reason Steve isn't posting anymore is
> 'cause he
> knows the same thing I do. That none of this conversation, data,
> or logic is
> gonna make any difference whatsoever, screwdrivers will continue to
> be needed to
> pry placebo loops from cold dead fingers, brake levers will stay on
> downtubes,
> and I'm totally wasting my time (currently crunching SETI Work Unit
> No. 683 -
> not having much luck in other parts of the galaxy either).
> Somebody prove us
> wrong.
>
>
>
tomorrow (Sunday). Will test fly (with acknowledged-to-be-inferior
Lookout release). Next time I see you at Ridgely, let's make an
appointment to install your release on my glider. - Hugh
On 27 Sep 2005, at 19:41, TadErcksn@aol.com wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply, Kevin. No need for an apology - really did
> and do
> appreciate your input. Any rough spots surfaced only as a result of
> misinterpretation of points I was trying to make, one of which
> wasn't stated very well.
> And that dialog you opened up crystallized a position for me - but
> it's really
> going to run counter to conventional wisdom.
>
> First off (anybody still listening out there?)... I'm calling for
> reports of
> any instance of a surprise in the air relating to a release system
> (hand,
> winch, scooter, truck, step, AT, balloon, you name it) that wasn't
> predictable on
> the ground.
>
> Since, aside from loading and trim, release systems have absolutely
> nothing
> to do with aerodynamics, the number of responses which I will get
> back which
> meet the criterion will be a bit less than the apparent interest in
> preventing
> needless towing deaths - zero.
>
> We've known the basics of how to do this stuff since the duct tape was
> quietly and slowly pulled off of Donnell Hewett's mouth a couple of
> decades ago.
> EVERYTHING can be tested and demonstrated on the ground BETTER than
> it can in
> the air. It's all loads, physics, mechanics, and ergonomics.
>
>
> WATRMA
>
> The best two point AT system designer on the planet is (drum roll)
> me. The
> best one point concept guy is (drum roll) Steve. Therefore, I am
> hereby
> appointing ourselves (Steve doesn't know this yet)
> Co-Emporers-Until-Somebody-Comes-Along-With-Something-Better of the
> World Aerotow Release Manufacturers
> Association.
>
> Constitution
>
> Any Co-Emporer, Member, Release System, or Bylaw may be fed into a
> chipper at
> any time based on actual data or a rational argument.
>
> Bylaws
>
> 01 - Membership
>
> Nerds will be welcomed into the Association with open arms and no
> questions
> asked, pilots with be scrutinized with deep suspicion in an
> atmosphere of open
> hostility.
>
> 02 - Ground Testing
>
> Any release system submitted for certification shall have the hell
> tested out
> of it in excess of weak link loads and with respect to all worst case
> scenarios.
>
> 03 - Flight Testing
>
> The number of test flights required to demonstrate what we already
> know shall
> be:
>
> ONE
>
> and shall complete the certification process.
>
> 04 - Superstition
>
> Demonstrably superior systems shall not be shunned in favor of ones
> older and
> demonstrably dangerous based upon the "potential evil spirits"
> argument.
>
> 05 - Protocol
>
> The use of demonstrably dangerous systems when superior cost effective
> systems and modifications are readily available is condemned in the
> strongest terms.
>
>
> I'm not entirely kidding about this. We know how to certify hang
> gliders.
> Release systems are barely visible on the relative complexity scale
> and I know
> how to certify them as well as anyone else out there (and it ain't
> that
> difficult).
>
> Rambling on...
>
> I have had further communications with Steve, picked up a few more
> details,
> and been granted permission to throw the lower half of his right
> leg to the
> wolves in order to restore the reputation of his release concept to
> the pedestal
> upon which it deservedly belongs.
>
> I only know some particulars of two premature release incidents. One
> involved an insecure attachment of his handiwork to a tow loop.
> The other involved
> the assembly I had provided him a week prior to its brief flight.
>
> Although I believe he checked the latter out pretty thoroughly in the
> armchair at home he made a last minute swap in the staging area and
> didn't check it
> out with respect to his harness until the carabiner clipped shut
> around his
> bridle. He bit off way too much trigger line, knew he had a
> problem immediately
> when the tow line was tensioned, and could have easily aborted
> before the
> cart's front wheels had rolled a quarter of a turn. The adjustment
> of the
> adapters never got the chance to become an issue and probably
> wouldn't have been. I
> may have, in fact created a one-size-fits-all.
>
> In any case, I disassembled the adapters and replaced them with a
> pair that
> can be easily adjusted on the cart so that a flight can be gotten
> off before
> they are replaced with a fixed pair.
>
> A little zinger opportunity I missed before... Kevin has
> documented that bad
> things can happen after premature releases but I'm not hearing the
> thunder of
> the stampede resulting from the movement away from curved pin
> barrel releases.
>
> I've just done some quantitative testing on the four string
> mechanism and
> been totally blown away by the results. At weak link loading the
> tension on the
> trigger string is less than a tenth of what I can fairly
> comfortably hold in
> my teeth, yet the thing will blow at about 30 pounds of tow
> tension. This is
> magnitudes better than I had hoped for. The entire deluxe edition
> one point
> assembly from titanium snap shackle to titanium snap shackle weighs
> in at under
> an ounce and three quarters and fits in your pocket with no opening
> for a wise
> crack from Mae West.
>
> Scott - got a little wager for you.
>
> Send Holly's basetube in for metallurgical analysis. If they don't
> find in
> the grip areas traces of gold and uranium resulting from the fusion
> of aluminum
> atoms I'll buy you a new 5030.
>
> Based on the fact that she's a terrestrial mammal with an opposable
> thumb and
> may have one percent of my cowardice DNA I'm guessing that neither
> hand ever
> came off of the basetube. I'm also guessing that hands never came
> off of the
> control frame in the other accidents we've been discussing lately.
> I think
> you have to be real comfortable flying upside down to be able have
> a chance at
> functioning properly in a situation like that.
>
> You're talking about practicing to become proficient on obsolete
> second and
> third rate systems.
>
> "Both releases have to be instinctive..."
>
> Your instinct is going to be to fly the glider and that's going to
> override
> everything else. Join Darth - uh, STEVE and me and you can fly the
> glider AND
> separate yourself from the string that's about to kill you.
>
> Listening Audience - The reason Steve isn't posting anymore is
> 'cause he
> knows the same thing I do. That none of this conversation, data,
> or logic is
> gonna make any difference whatsoever, screwdrivers will continue to
> be needed to
> pry placebo loops from cold dead fingers, brake levers will stay on
> downtubes,
> and I'm totally wasting my time (currently crunching SETI Work Unit
> No. 683 -
> not having much luck in other parts of the galaxy either).
> Somebody prove us
> wrong.
>
>
>
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
$15 pacifiers
Since last writing I have returned to Ridgely for some continuing education.
First off - concession to Kevin. Yeah, based on the information that I've
had a few and the tandem pilots haven't, lockouts are probably a lot more
preventable than I had previously assumed. Sunny advised to forget, for the moment,
trying to stay level with the tug and just deal with things the same way I
would the edge of a thermal trying to kick me out - shove the bar back and horse
the glider back into the lift. Maybe folk who got their AT tickets after a
structured training program know a few things that some of us who picked it up
along the way back then don't.
Also - Out of an estimated 25,000 tows at Ridgely the number of low level
lockouts is zero - same number as significant launch related accidents and non
aerobatic parachute deployments.
So low level lockouts are extremely rare (I imagine a tug pilot eye on the
ribbons helps - there's been no shortage of dust devils around there lately).
But on those extremely rare occasions they're freakin' deadly.
Ignoring tow independent stuff that was gonna kill ya anyway (meteorological
phenomena, structural failure)...
Whenever some one or two gets mangled in a lockout the force that causes the
death and destruction and overrides control is transmitted through a string.
Therefore, if one can untie the string in a timely manner one can spare him,
her, or themselves aforementioned death and destruction.
I find it almost inescapable to avoid the conclusion that Bill Bennett, Mike
DelSignore, Mike Haas (Cushing Field - 2004/06/24), Holly, Arlan, and Jeremiah
spent some of the later moments of their critical flights really wishing the
string were untied but unable to do anything about it.
Whenever I hear about such an expensive data point emerging for inclusion in
the base the first two things I want to know are the locations of the trigger
and finger - and (again) rarely find out.
If Bill and Mike were flying with a brake lever on the downtube there were
better options at the time.
Barring structural failure in the Arlan/Jeremiah crash... And that one is
lining up to spell the end of Hang Glide Chicago (the price for your next glider
just went up).
We've heard the "ya can't tell what's gonna happen in the air" mantra but
with readership reach spanning the globe, decades, and knowledge of hundreds of
thousands of tows no one can cite a single example relevant to the subject at
hand.
Happy so many people are so confident in their skills, reflexes, and coolness
under fire that they can afford to ignore the substantial extra safety
margins being proffered on silver platters.
Hugh (and anyone else with an appropriate glider) - much as I'd like to see
my Rube Goldberg job proliferate... I'd give serious consideration to towing
one point with the four string. It just doesn't get much better than that. If
you're set on two point however, I'm sure I can set you up without the
sacrifice of a weekend.
Very sorry to hear about Bill Priday. If ya dig deep enough through your old
magazines you'll find an engineering remedy to an inherent hang glider design
weakness that probably would have prevented that one too.
First off - concession to Kevin. Yeah, based on the information that I've
had a few and the tandem pilots haven't, lockouts are probably a lot more
preventable than I had previously assumed. Sunny advised to forget, for the moment,
trying to stay level with the tug and just deal with things the same way I
would the edge of a thermal trying to kick me out - shove the bar back and horse
the glider back into the lift. Maybe folk who got their AT tickets after a
structured training program know a few things that some of us who picked it up
along the way back then don't.
Also - Out of an estimated 25,000 tows at Ridgely the number of low level
lockouts is zero - same number as significant launch related accidents and non
aerobatic parachute deployments.
So low level lockouts are extremely rare (I imagine a tug pilot eye on the
ribbons helps - there's been no shortage of dust devils around there lately).
But on those extremely rare occasions they're freakin' deadly.
Ignoring tow independent stuff that was gonna kill ya anyway (meteorological
phenomena, structural failure)...
Whenever some one or two gets mangled in a lockout the force that causes the
death and destruction and overrides control is transmitted through a string.
Therefore, if one can untie the string in a timely manner one can spare him,
her, or themselves aforementioned death and destruction.
I find it almost inescapable to avoid the conclusion that Bill Bennett, Mike
DelSignore, Mike Haas (Cushing Field - 2004/06/24), Holly, Arlan, and Jeremiah
spent some of the later moments of their critical flights really wishing the
string were untied but unable to do anything about it.
Whenever I hear about such an expensive data point emerging for inclusion in
the base the first two things I want to know are the locations of the trigger
and finger - and (again) rarely find out.
If Bill and Mike were flying with a brake lever on the downtube there were
better options at the time.
Barring structural failure in the Arlan/Jeremiah crash... And that one is
lining up to spell the end of Hang Glide Chicago (the price for your next glider
just went up).
We've heard the "ya can't tell what's gonna happen in the air" mantra but
with readership reach spanning the globe, decades, and knowledge of hundreds of
thousands of tows no one can cite a single example relevant to the subject at
hand.
Happy so many people are so confident in their skills, reflexes, and coolness
under fire that they can afford to ignore the substantial extra safety
margins being proffered on silver platters.
Hugh (and anyone else with an appropriate glider) - much as I'd like to see
my Rube Goldberg job proliferate... I'd give serious consideration to towing
one point with the four string. It just doesn't get much better than that. If
you're set on two point however, I'm sure I can set you up without the
sacrifice of a weekend.
Very sorry to hear about Bill Priday. If ya dig deep enough through your old
magazines you'll find an engineering remedy to an inherent hang glider design
weakness that probably would have prevented that one too.
-
Paul Tjaden
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:28 pm
$15 pacifiers
In a message dated 10/8/2005 4:08:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TadErcksn@aol.com writes:
Not exactly certain what constitutes (or what Sunny defines as) a low level lock out. I have released myself from tow below 200 feet once and probably below 100 feet once. The first time was a very early flight (3rd) in my Litespeed. Came off the cart late, hit the prop wash and started to PIO pretty wildly. Never got locked out but was far enough out of wack to do a steep wingover after I released. Lost most of the altitude I had and pulled out in ground effect just in time to flare and land. Should have?used a fin but had "survived" a whopping two tows at?Blue Sky the week before?so thought I'd be OK. Very stupid.
?
Second time also on the Litespeed.?Over a hundred?launches later,?very experienced and current but with a 10 mph, 90 degree cross. In a cross, you always want to launch from the down wind side of the tug so that when you get airborne, you are already in the appropriate position behind the tug. I pointed the cart in that direction but as?we began to roll,?the cart weathervaned into the wind and started in the wrong direction. I tried to bump it back but was unsuccessful so when I became airborne and the tug and I nosed into the wind, I found myself?hanging way off to the left of the tug (nearly in a lock out position) even though I had just left the ground. I tried to fight the glider back to the right but every time I thought I was making progress, I'd feel it trying to continue a roll to the left. I managed to balance on the edge of this situation while I gained a couple hundred feet.?At around two hundred feet I felt like I was losing the battle and released.?The glider did a HUGE wingover but recovered with?enough altitude to do a safe approach and landing. After that... I decided to stay on the ground for the rest of the day. Besides, I needed a change of underwear.
?
Discussing it later, we all decided we were reaching the limits of safe crosswind launching conditions. You can launch in a 90 degree cross and you can launch in 10 mph winds but combining the two is starting to push the envelope pretty hard.
?
Don't know if these are lock outs but certainly the second felt like it. I don't think I could have gotten back behind the tug and it was followed by the traditional major wingover after release.
?
BTW, In both instances I was using an off the shoulders, pro tow type bridle with a bailey release. I've always felt that it was quick and easy to use this type of bridle and release. It was right under my nose and took only a split second to pull it. There was never any delay or anxiety caused by taking my hand off the base tube to reach for it. I quickly had both my hands back on the bar and don't feel it contributed to any loss of control. I would NOT, however, have felt comfortable trying to reach way off to my corner bracket to find a bike release.
?
Paul T.
Also - Out of an estimated 25,000 tows at Ridgely the number of low level
lockouts is zero - same number as significant launch related accidents and non
aerobatic parachute deployments.
Not exactly certain what constitutes (or what Sunny defines as) a low level lock out. I have released myself from tow below 200 feet once and probably below 100 feet once. The first time was a very early flight (3rd) in my Litespeed. Came off the cart late, hit the prop wash and started to PIO pretty wildly. Never got locked out but was far enough out of wack to do a steep wingover after I released. Lost most of the altitude I had and pulled out in ground effect just in time to flare and land. Should have?used a fin but had "survived" a whopping two tows at?Blue Sky the week before?so thought I'd be OK. Very stupid.
?
Second time also on the Litespeed.?Over a hundred?launches later,?very experienced and current but with a 10 mph, 90 degree cross. In a cross, you always want to launch from the down wind side of the tug so that when you get airborne, you are already in the appropriate position behind the tug. I pointed the cart in that direction but as?we began to roll,?the cart weathervaned into the wind and started in the wrong direction. I tried to bump it back but was unsuccessful so when I became airborne and the tug and I nosed into the wind, I found myself?hanging way off to the left of the tug (nearly in a lock out position) even though I had just left the ground. I tried to fight the glider back to the right but every time I thought I was making progress, I'd feel it trying to continue a roll to the left. I managed to balance on the edge of this situation while I gained a couple hundred feet.?At around two hundred feet I felt like I was losing the battle and released.?The glider did a HUGE wingover but recovered with?enough altitude to do a safe approach and landing. After that... I decided to stay on the ground for the rest of the day. Besides, I needed a change of underwear.
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Discussing it later, we all decided we were reaching the limits of safe crosswind launching conditions. You can launch in a 90 degree cross and you can launch in 10 mph winds but combining the two is starting to push the envelope pretty hard.
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Don't know if these are lock outs but certainly the second felt like it. I don't think I could have gotten back behind the tug and it was followed by the traditional major wingover after release.
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BTW, In both instances I was using an off the shoulders, pro tow type bridle with a bailey release. I've always felt that it was quick and easy to use this type of bridle and release. It was right under my nose and took only a split second to pull it. There was never any delay or anxiety caused by taking my hand off the base tube to reach for it. I quickly had both my hands back on the bar and don't feel it contributed to any loss of control. I would NOT, however, have felt comfortable trying to reach way off to my corner bracket to find a bike release.
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Paul T.
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Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
Re: $15 pacifiers
Inescapable conclusion or wild-ass guess?Tad Eareckson wrote:I find it almost inescapable to avoid the conclusion that Bill Bennett, Mike
DelSignore, Mike Haas (Cushing Field - 2004/06/24), Holly, Arlan, and Jeremiah
spent some of the later moments of their critical flights really wishing the
string were untied but unable to do anything about it.
marc
Great Googly-moo!
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Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
$15 pacifiers
Paul - Thanks loads for taking the time to document those incidents and relay
your impressions regarding the barrel release under those high stress
circumstances (weather must suck down there too). It's always nice when someone
comes through stuff like that in good enough shape to talk about it.
Would really appreciate accounts of similar incidents to amend to the
archives.
your impressions regarding the barrel release under those high stress
circumstances (weather must suck down there too). It's always nice when someone
comes through stuff like that in good enough shape to talk about it.
Would really appreciate accounts of similar incidents to amend to the
archives.