Pretty harsh, don't you think, for everyone to beat up on Scott when
he's hurting? Let him vent a little... - Hugh
On 5 Oct 2005, at 17:53, batmanh3 wrote:
>
> Scott -
>
> While this topic is fresh in your head, I would like to point out
> something. About a month ago, you argued (theres a shock) that a
> Hang 3 who is trained at a tow park and has been signed off with
> his foot launch did not need to work under a CHGPA observer. You
> argued with Matthew when he suggested you come out and let a CHGPA
> observer "observe" you and you were totally put out that anyone
> would even suggest such a thing. It is the difference between tow
> park flying and mountain flying that could very well of been a
> large factor in this tragedy. Bill was not used to mountain
> flying, nor was he used to the hang checks, etc that we do before
> taking off that are typically done differently or at least at
> different times when you are towing. Instead of completely going
> against the system and arguing everything that you feel is done
> wrong with this sport, I point out that Matthew suggested something
> as a point of safety and you didn't feel it applied to you. We as
> more senior pilots
> often do or say things that are meant to help. If you chose to
> ignore them or not abide by the agreed on rules, the potential for
> risk increases. Bill did not adhere to the one simple rule of
> making sure he was hooked in. There is no one to blame other than
> Bill. I'm sure the wire crew feels horrible, but they missed it
> for one reason or another. If that is due to Bill's hang straps
> being out of the usual form, or his harness being different, or
> that they just didn't see it. Their missing it implies or impacts
> zero blame on them as wire crew. Anymore than baseball doing away
> with the designated hitter just because you don't agree with it,
> hang gliding isn't going to suddenly get up and change because
> you're upset. Learn to live within the established rules or leave
> the sport. I would rather see you walk away mad then continue this
> argument and end up hurting yourself because you can't see the
> forest for the trees.
>
> ChrisBatman
>
Thoughts on responsibility...
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
I think this is largely what it comes down to. We all care deeply about each other and because of that we will do our best. But because we are imperfect, our best will sometimes not be enough. As I said before, we will torture ourselves over such mistakes: adding blame from the community means that eventually there will be no community. If people held me responsible for every mistake I made as wire crew I would have been gone long ago...and I think I've done pretty well as wire crew.... if something bad happens, I don't want to be blamed nor do I want to place blame.
JR
So yes, we should try to improve. But holding people responsible and blaming them when things go wrong...that could destroy us. Instructors do absorb some of this responsibility when things go wrong in a lesson, and I'm sure it's a hard lonely world. The fact that as a culture we try to be blame free is the only shield they have; without it I'm sure there would be no instructors at all. That's the end of Hang Gliding.
So Scott, before laying blame on the wire crew, ask yourself if you can be perfect, and if you can live with being blamed by the community if you slip and someone dies. If the answer to both questions is 'no', then you understand where we are coming from. Do your best to improve the culture by having individuals understand the need for a hang check; suffer under sleepless guilt when you screw up as wire crew; but don't hold blame in your heart against someone else that screws up. In our community blame must be purely individual.
Brian Vant-Hull
Thoughts on responsibility...
My 2 cents.
Flying solo is an individual activity. You are responsible for your
equipment, your decisions, and your flight execution. Me personally I count
on NO ONE but myself to assure my own safety. In that regard I get a bit
fanatical about overzealous wire crews grabbing my wing when I have clearly
stated exactly what it is I expect from them. More specifically what I
DON'T want them to do or touch.
Here is the contentious part of my opinion. There seems to be a trend in
wire crew launches where pilots are expecting more and more of he flying
functions to be performed by the wire crew in less and less demanding launch
conditions. Pilots are not flying the wing when they should, instead they
are leaving that control to the imperfect system of someone yelling out
neutral and another guy whispering heavy up. I cringe every time I see a
pilot letting a crew fly the wing they should be in control of (in those
conditions). A constant rattle of light up, neutral, light up, heavy up,
blah blah. You aren't in command of a glider you should be capable of
controlling in those conditions and when the crew is doing all the work, you
have surrendered that control to an entire group of other people.
It's a slippery slope between conditions that truly require windy crew
assisted launches and those where we just need spotters for the what ifs of
a gust. As a group there is a trend towards relying on other people to
perform tasks that we should be doing ourselves.
Obviously the hook in question and wire crew issue I have are only loosely
related but it all comes down to the same mentality. No matter how many
other people, pets, spectators, pilots, assistants, wuffos, whatever are on
top of the mountain. You are totally alone, period. Same as when you are
flying. You simply react proactively to your environment. The only real
purpose I see of a hang check is to spot for tangles or twists I can't see
by cranking my head around. If you are going to touch your control frame,
don't do it unless you are hooked in.
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott [mailto:sw@shadepine.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:54 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Thoughts on responsibility...
[Said in the spirit of friendly discussion, not defensively.
]
Chris...I do not count on my wire crew to catch my mistakes. I do understand
that I am responsible for my own safety.
My point is simply that a wire crew member should never willfully disregard
the pilot's safety. While ultimate responsibility lies with the pilot, this
is not a license for the wire crew member to perform their job poorly.
As I said, wire crew members are not mindless drones. Every wire crew member
should clearly understand what is expected of them in ALL launches---to
include backing up the pilot's own safety checks. It's called redundancy,
and increases overall safety.
Some might say being sure the wire crew understands what is expected of them
is the pilot's responsibility, and I agree---the pilot should effectively
brief the wire crew members. But anyone who regularly wires pilots off
should not need to be told to check the pilot's harness connection. This
should be automatic, and not need to be said.
Scott
Flying solo is an individual activity. You are responsible for your
equipment, your decisions, and your flight execution. Me personally I count
on NO ONE but myself to assure my own safety. In that regard I get a bit
fanatical about overzealous wire crews grabbing my wing when I have clearly
stated exactly what it is I expect from them. More specifically what I
DON'T want them to do or touch.
Here is the contentious part of my opinion. There seems to be a trend in
wire crew launches where pilots are expecting more and more of he flying
functions to be performed by the wire crew in less and less demanding launch
conditions. Pilots are not flying the wing when they should, instead they
are leaving that control to the imperfect system of someone yelling out
neutral and another guy whispering heavy up. I cringe every time I see a
pilot letting a crew fly the wing they should be in control of (in those
conditions). A constant rattle of light up, neutral, light up, heavy up,
blah blah. You aren't in command of a glider you should be capable of
controlling in those conditions and when the crew is doing all the work, you
have surrendered that control to an entire group of other people.
It's a slippery slope between conditions that truly require windy crew
assisted launches and those where we just need spotters for the what ifs of
a gust. As a group there is a trend towards relying on other people to
perform tasks that we should be doing ourselves.
Obviously the hook in question and wire crew issue I have are only loosely
related but it all comes down to the same mentality. No matter how many
other people, pets, spectators, pilots, assistants, wuffos, whatever are on
top of the mountain. You are totally alone, period. Same as when you are
flying. You simply react proactively to your environment. The only real
purpose I see of a hang check is to spot for tangles or twists I can't see
by cranking my head around. If you are going to touch your control frame,
don't do it unless you are hooked in.
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott [mailto:sw@shadepine.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:54 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Thoughts on responsibility...
[Said in the spirit of friendly discussion, not defensively.
]Chris...I do not count on my wire crew to catch my mistakes. I do understand
that I am responsible for my own safety.
My point is simply that a wire crew member should never willfully disregard
the pilot's safety. While ultimate responsibility lies with the pilot, this
is not a license for the wire crew member to perform their job poorly.
As I said, wire crew members are not mindless drones. Every wire crew member
should clearly understand what is expected of them in ALL launches---to
include backing up the pilot's own safety checks. It's called redundancy,
and increases overall safety.
Some might say being sure the wire crew understands what is expected of them
is the pilot's responsibility, and I agree---the pilot should effectively
brief the wire crew members. But anyone who regularly wires pilots off
should not need to be told to check the pilot's harness connection. This
should be automatic, and not need to be said.
Scott
Thoughts on responsibility...
I've been wondering about this.? In less-than-demanding conditions, I've told my crew I only wanted their help if things got awry.? But, what are others' thoughts?? At what point do you find an assisted launch really necessary?
Dave
On Oct 6, 2005, at 3:00 PM, Kevin wrote:
Dave
On Oct 6, 2005, at 3:00 PM, Kevin wrote:
?Pilots are not flying the wing when they should, instead they
are leaving that control to the imperfect system of someone yelling out
neutral and another guy whispering heavy up.?
quote="dbodner"]I've been wondering about this. In less-than-demanding conditions, I've told my crew I only wanted their help if things got awry. But, what are others' thoughts? At what point do you find an assisted launch really necessary?
Dave
[/quote]
My answer would have been much different before I came here. Where I grew up, launch assistance was reserved for some pretty serious situations. That was mainly because we didn't have the luxury of other pilots being around ... kinda like many of our mountain launches when there is not a club fly-in event happening and most folks are at the tow parks.
In contrast ... in this club ... at our sites ... launch assistance is expected, often regardless of conditions.
I have not seen this culture in other regions. You might have to ask for assistance because it might not be offered, and your 'crew' might not ask you if you are hooked in, or there might be no one there at all.
A few years ago, and further west, wire crew consisted of one person - on the nose - if there was one around, and willing to help - and only if the wind was blowing pretty strong. Otherwise you self-launched ... or you didn't fly. It was a risk that you could assume, being 'free' and fully 'responsible' for your decisions.
In windy situations, if you had a wire crew (aka 'nose man') his/her job was to keep you from losing control of the wing (i.e. the noseman controlled pitch) I never expected anything other than: they should duck or lie down immediately when I yelled 'clear', and I'm sure that they hoped that I would not step on them or knock them over. They were certainly not responsible for checking that I was hooked in, or any of that other stuff we do nowadays (chin-strap, leg-loops, parachute pins, attitude check, etc). Without crew, you controlled pitch with proper high-wind ground handling technique. Something that everyone should practice.
I have made hundreds of 'minimally-assisted' or non-assisted launches like that. Funny thing, some local pilot called me 'crazy' recently for trying it.
Whatever.
Dave
[/quote]
My answer would have been much different before I came here. Where I grew up, launch assistance was reserved for some pretty serious situations. That was mainly because we didn't have the luxury of other pilots being around ... kinda like many of our mountain launches when there is not a club fly-in event happening and most folks are at the tow parks.
In contrast ... in this club ... at our sites ... launch assistance is expected, often regardless of conditions.
I have not seen this culture in other regions. You might have to ask for assistance because it might not be offered, and your 'crew' might not ask you if you are hooked in, or there might be no one there at all.
A few years ago, and further west, wire crew consisted of one person - on the nose - if there was one around, and willing to help - and only if the wind was blowing pretty strong. Otherwise you self-launched ... or you didn't fly. It was a risk that you could assume, being 'free' and fully 'responsible' for your decisions.
In windy situations, if you had a wire crew (aka 'nose man') his/her job was to keep you from losing control of the wing (i.e. the noseman controlled pitch) I never expected anything other than: they should duck or lie down immediately when I yelled 'clear', and I'm sure that they hoped that I would not step on them or knock them over. They were certainly not responsible for checking that I was hooked in, or any of that other stuff we do nowadays (chin-strap, leg-loops, parachute pins, attitude check, etc). Without crew, you controlled pitch with proper high-wind ground handling technique. Something that everyone should practice.
I have made hundreds of 'minimally-assisted' or non-assisted launches like that. Funny thing, some local pilot called me 'crazy' recently for trying it.
Whatever.
'Spark
I'm focused on foot launch here, since I don't know much about aerotowing.Spark wrote:...In contrast ... in this club ... at our sites ... launch assistance is expected, often regardless of conditions.
I meant to say 'often expected, regardless of conditions', but generalities like this are generally pretty worthless.
My point is: I've observed that our culture is a bit different with regard to launch assistance. I don't view it as a bad thing, but I feel that there is value in developing skills and experience that allow one to launch with less, or no assistance.
One way to gain that experience is to come out to the training hill and practice. Smithsburg will be opening soon. I encourage you to come out on a blustery day ... more than once.
'Spark
-
hepcat1989
- Posts: 684
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:15 pm
Thoughts on responsibility...
Good advice. I still find ground handling in windy conditions a
trial. Worry about breaking a batten or such if I lose it -
deterrent to going to the training hill. Try to fly all winter so
there's less need. One of the reasons for dirtying up my downtubes
with tennis racket grip. Will be glad of any suggestions... - Hugh
On 7 Oct 2005, at 06:11, Spark wrote:
>
>
> Spark wrote:
> ...In contrast ... in this club ... at our sites ... launch
> assistance is expected, often regardless of conditions.
> (end of quote)
>
>
> I'm focused on foot launch here, since I don't know much about
> aerotowing.
>
> I meant to say 'often expected, regardless of conditions', but
> generalities like this are generally pretty worthless.
>
> My point is: I've observed that our culture is a bit different
> with regard to launch assistance. I don't view it as a bad thing,
> but I feel that there is value in developing skills and experience
> that allow one to launch with less, or no assistance.
>
> One way to gain that experience is to come out to the training hill
> and practice. Smithsburg will be opening soon. I encourage you
> to come out on a blustery day ... more than once.'Spark
> 301-462-8320
> http://community.webshots.com/user/sparkozoid
>
trial. Worry about breaking a batten or such if I lose it -
deterrent to going to the training hill. Try to fly all winter so
there's less need. One of the reasons for dirtying up my downtubes
with tennis racket grip. Will be glad of any suggestions... - Hugh
On 7 Oct 2005, at 06:11, Spark wrote:
>
>
> Spark wrote:
> ...In contrast ... in this club ... at our sites ... launch
> assistance is expected, often regardless of conditions.
> (end of quote)
>
>
> I'm focused on foot launch here, since I don't know much about
> aerotowing.
>
> I meant to say 'often expected, regardless of conditions', but
> generalities like this are generally pretty worthless.
>
> My point is: I've observed that our culture is a bit different
> with regard to launch assistance. I don't view it as a bad thing,
> but I feel that there is value in developing skills and experience
> that allow one to launch with less, or no assistance.
>
> One way to gain that experience is to come out to the training hill
> and practice. Smithsburg will be opening soon. I encourage you
> to come out on a blustery day ... more than once.'Spark
> 301-462-8320
> http://community.webshots.com/user/sparkozoid
>
-
Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
I've seen and participated in many 'o Smithsburg wire crews. Eddie is certainly one of the most skilled pilots in handling his glider in the higher, laminar winds there.hepcat1989 wrote:I have never seen a wire crew at Smithsburg. I have been there with Eddie Miller in some pretty strong winds. He said 20mph, and a little stronger. A foot over the base tube, and lean into it while waiting to launch!We self launch there as everyone does.I always wondered that as well Dave B. Shawn.
marc
Great Googly-moo!
On Improving Ground Handling Skills
He has not offered it in a while, but if you see that Greg DeWolf is going to teach his Advanced Launch & Landing clinic. TAKE IT!
Greg taught it at Smithsburg a number of years ago, and twice at Taylor.
He tries to set it for a strong windy day, because a major part of the class involves ground handling pointers.
I took part in both Taylor sessions with Greg, and will sign up again if he makes it available. Following the class that Dan T. and I had with him many years ago, I was finally confident enough to self launch (last one left behind) at Woodstock and Bill's. Two or three H2's benefited from my willingness to do that, as I would Observe them off WS and then launch after them, all by my lonesome. (And yes, I was particularly vigilant about a hang check and a hook check. I ALWAYS use the Aussie method.) It really did help me.
Usually, if you can gather enough students ( I don't know Greg's current threshhold numbr) he will arrange a custom group class.
Cragin
[quote="mcelrah"]Good advice. I still find ground handling in windy conditions a
trial. Worry about breaking a batten or such if I lose it -
deterrent to going to the training hill. Try to fly all winter so
there's less need. One of the reasons for dirtying up my downtubes
with tennis racket grip. Will be glad of any suggestions... - Hugh
Greg taught it at Smithsburg a number of years ago, and twice at Taylor.
He tries to set it for a strong windy day, because a major part of the class involves ground handling pointers.
I took part in both Taylor sessions with Greg, and will sign up again if he makes it available. Following the class that Dan T. and I had with him many years ago, I was finally confident enough to self launch (last one left behind) at Woodstock and Bill's. Two or three H2's benefited from my willingness to do that, as I would Observe them off WS and then launch after them, all by my lonesome. (And yes, I was particularly vigilant about a hang check and a hook check. I ALWAYS use the Aussie method.) It really did help me.
Usually, if you can gather enough students ( I don't know Greg's current threshhold numbr) he will arrange a custom group class.
Cragin
[quote="mcelrah"]Good advice. I still find ground handling in windy conditions a
trial. Worry about breaking a batten or such if I lose it -
deterrent to going to the training hill. Try to fly all winter so
there's less need. One of the reasons for dirtying up my downtubes
with tennis racket grip. Will be glad of any suggestions... - Hugh
-
Sue Clapsadle
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:27 pm
- Location: Hustontown,PA
- Contact:
Thoughts on responsibility...
[img]cid:56095270-380e-11da-bae9-444553540000[/img] Alright, I have to comment here, and I know that your thinking that its none of my business, but I must say this.
When I started coming to the fly-ins I was told that the hang gliding association was a safety?oriented organization, and over the past few years there has been some tragedies and some near tradgedies, some of them could have been prevented.
There has?just been a tradgedy that could have been prevented by people who care. I agree with the fact that you most certainly should be responsible for your?own?set up and safety routine?as I know that a pilot must do a routine check on his plane before takeoff but I also believe that there should be a group of individuals that care and are willing to go that extra mile to see that tradgedies based on oversight, carelessness, or lack of training do not happen within the chgpa. For what it is worth I dont think you want to lose your best friends anymore do you? or even your best enemies if the case may be. It is not my responsability to pray for you all either? as it is your responsability to get things right with the man upstairs but I do because I care. So regardless of who was at fault for this senseless tragedy now what are you all giong to do to see that it doesnt happen again.
?
?
[img]cid:56095271-380e-11da-bae9-444553540000[/img]
[img]cid:56095272-380e-11da-bae9-444553540000[/img]Sue Clapsadle
Photographer At Large
-------Original Message-------
?
From: Scott (sw@shadepine.com)
Date: 10/05/05 18:46:45
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org (hg_forum@chgpa.org)
Subject: Thoughts on responsibility...
?
?
Quote:
If he did not ask for a hang check then how can the wire crew possibly be liable?
(end of quote)
?
?
Whoa Matthew...you're suggesting something I never said, if you're suggesting I said the crew should be "liable" in the legal sense. Try to find a quote from one of my posts where I say that---you won't. What I said was: "If just one of the people on launch with Bill had seen that he wasn't hooked in, he'd still be alive." I further said that Bill's crew shared responsibility for his death---and I clearly stated "responsible" NOT in the legal sense, but in the moral sense.
?
Quote:
If he did not ask for a hang check then how can the wire crew possibly be liable?
(end of quote)
?
Now you're getting to the heart of what I've been saying all along, which is that if someone grabs a sidewire---whether asked or not---then, in my opinion, they should do exactly what CHGPA pilots do---perform a visual check of critical safety elements, even touching things as necessary.
[img]cid:56095273-380e-11da-bae9-444553540000[/img]
When I started coming to the fly-ins I was told that the hang gliding association was a safety?oriented organization, and over the past few years there has been some tragedies and some near tradgedies, some of them could have been prevented.
There has?just been a tradgedy that could have been prevented by people who care. I agree with the fact that you most certainly should be responsible for your?own?set up and safety routine?as I know that a pilot must do a routine check on his plane before takeoff but I also believe that there should be a group of individuals that care and are willing to go that extra mile to see that tradgedies based on oversight, carelessness, or lack of training do not happen within the chgpa. For what it is worth I dont think you want to lose your best friends anymore do you? or even your best enemies if the case may be. It is not my responsability to pray for you all either? as it is your responsability to get things right with the man upstairs but I do because I care. So regardless of who was at fault for this senseless tragedy now what are you all giong to do to see that it doesnt happen again.
?
?
[img]cid:56095271-380e-11da-bae9-444553540000[/img]
[img]cid:56095272-380e-11da-bae9-444553540000[/img]Sue Clapsadle
Photographer At Large
-------Original Message-------
?
From: Scott (sw@shadepine.com)
Date: 10/05/05 18:46:45
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org (hg_forum@chgpa.org)
Subject: Thoughts on responsibility...
?
?
Quote:
If he did not ask for a hang check then how can the wire crew possibly be liable?
(end of quote)
?
?
Whoa Matthew...you're suggesting something I never said, if you're suggesting I said the crew should be "liable" in the legal sense. Try to find a quote from one of my posts where I say that---you won't. What I said was: "If just one of the people on launch with Bill had seen that he wasn't hooked in, he'd still be alive." I further said that Bill's crew shared responsibility for his death---and I clearly stated "responsible" NOT in the legal sense, but in the moral sense.
?
Quote:
If he did not ask for a hang check then how can the wire crew possibly be liable?
(end of quote)
?
Now you're getting to the heart of what I've been saying all along, which is that if someone grabs a sidewire---whether asked or not---then, in my opinion, they should do exactly what CHGPA pilots do---perform a visual check of critical safety elements, even touching things as necessary.
[img]cid:56095273-380e-11da-bae9-444553540000[/img]
Thoughts on responsibility...
Better yet, free clinics are available any breezy cold NW day at Smithsburg.? Just do it.? The best way to teach ground handling and balancing your glider for launch, an important skill for launching off mountains.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????? Bacil
??????????????????????????????????????????????????? Bacil
Bill Priday - from his sister
I have just returned from Bill's memorial on Monday and am dealing w/the loss of my brother. The DVD tribute is something I have watched 30 times so far and can't stop crying-it is really wonderful.
I have read and re-read everyone's postings and felt obligated to post a reply from a member of his family:
First: Bill LOVED this sport
Second, I know nothing of hang gliding, but I understand risk taking, safety AND personal responsibility. I am a Master Instructor Trainer in Scuba Diving and have logged over 2000 dives all over the world...
Third, when I dive, I take total responsiblity for my actions. If I'm in a situation that does not feel right, I don't go. If my gear is not perfect, I fix it or don't go...if the situation is outside my training, I don't go, if there is a diver that is more experienced that I am, I ask for advice. If there is a diver that has "less" experience than me...I give assistance whether he asks for it or not...as a professional diver that is my role.
Someone asked about the BUDDY SYSTEM IN DIVING....The buddy system is one that works.....the system is designed to help each other do a gear check and make sure we are "ready to dive", it is used to "feel your partner out"...are they ok w/this dive? confident? scared? and to discuss those issues...PRIOR to diving. It is also used underwater, so if an emergency situation arises, there is a helping hand, another pair of eyes and finally someone to enjoy the wonders of the u/w world w/you.
With that, Bill died because he failed to do the last step-hook in.The responsibility is his....and it ended tragically. The pain associated with the loss of my brother Bill (your friend and fellow pilot) will not ease w/all this "discussion" going back and forth about responsiblity. Everyone is right....everyone has variations in there opinion...it's OK.
There is alot of pain we are all experiencing...the family doesn't blame anyone....Bill loved hang gliding....you could see it in his face...he took that risk, he messed up and it seems like alot of things didn't happen that day that could have changed the outcome.....but he is still gone.....no more blame...we just ask that not one more family/or friend has to go thru this.
I know that the hang gliding community is taking this to heart and some good will come out of Bill's death:
* change the design of whatever you have to to make it APPARENT...you are not hooked in. I think the Priday Straps or something would be wonderful...
* Implement a BUDDY SYSTEM procedure...so someone is watching your back and follows a protocal that eveyone adheres to like we have in diving..................BWRAF (BC jacket, Weight belt,Releases, AIR ON, FINAL OK). Both you and your buddy do this together...regardless of your level of training and experience...it JUST MAKES SENSE.
*write articles on how to make it safer
*Implement what ever you have to so that : NOT ONE MORE PERSON dies because he/she wasn't hooked in.
*If someone is jumping off a cliff and is New to that particular "area"...DON'T LET THEM GO FIRST...give them a MENTOR...someone they can learn from,,, someone that is WATCHING THEIR BACK until they have the steps down.
I don't have a Will, but I'm getting one this week-Bill didn't have a Will either. If you choose to participate in a sport like this (or diving) and something happens, don't put your family through the pain of "the State taking over", "not knowing what Bill would have wanted"...it's hard enough to cope w/your loved ones death.....PLEASE...PLEASE...get a Will and write down how you would like to be buried and let someone know where it is.... It only costs around $200 ...it will be worth it.
Finally I met alot of you at the memorial service and want to thank everyone for all their support thru this. For those of you that write on this site...please remember...when something like this happens, the family goes to these sites to read them to "help understand".
Deanna Priday (Bill's younger Sister)
I have read and re-read everyone's postings and felt obligated to post a reply from a member of his family:
First: Bill LOVED this sport
Second, I know nothing of hang gliding, but I understand risk taking, safety AND personal responsibility. I am a Master Instructor Trainer in Scuba Diving and have logged over 2000 dives all over the world...
Third, when I dive, I take total responsiblity for my actions. If I'm in a situation that does not feel right, I don't go. If my gear is not perfect, I fix it or don't go...if the situation is outside my training, I don't go, if there is a diver that is more experienced that I am, I ask for advice. If there is a diver that has "less" experience than me...I give assistance whether he asks for it or not...as a professional diver that is my role.
Someone asked about the BUDDY SYSTEM IN DIVING....The buddy system is one that works.....the system is designed to help each other do a gear check and make sure we are "ready to dive", it is used to "feel your partner out"...are they ok w/this dive? confident? scared? and to discuss those issues...PRIOR to diving. It is also used underwater, so if an emergency situation arises, there is a helping hand, another pair of eyes and finally someone to enjoy the wonders of the u/w world w/you.
With that, Bill died because he failed to do the last step-hook in.The responsibility is his....and it ended tragically. The pain associated with the loss of my brother Bill (your friend and fellow pilot) will not ease w/all this "discussion" going back and forth about responsiblity. Everyone is right....everyone has variations in there opinion...it's OK.
There is alot of pain we are all experiencing...the family doesn't blame anyone....Bill loved hang gliding....you could see it in his face...he took that risk, he messed up and it seems like alot of things didn't happen that day that could have changed the outcome.....but he is still gone.....no more blame...we just ask that not one more family/or friend has to go thru this.
I know that the hang gliding community is taking this to heart and some good will come out of Bill's death:
* change the design of whatever you have to to make it APPARENT...you are not hooked in. I think the Priday Straps or something would be wonderful...
* Implement a BUDDY SYSTEM procedure...so someone is watching your back and follows a protocal that eveyone adheres to like we have in diving..................BWRAF (BC jacket, Weight belt,Releases, AIR ON, FINAL OK). Both you and your buddy do this together...regardless of your level of training and experience...it JUST MAKES SENSE.
*write articles on how to make it safer
*Implement what ever you have to so that : NOT ONE MORE PERSON dies because he/she wasn't hooked in.
*If someone is jumping off a cliff and is New to that particular "area"...DON'T LET THEM GO FIRST...give them a MENTOR...someone they can learn from,,, someone that is WATCHING THEIR BACK until they have the steps down.
I don't have a Will, but I'm getting one this week-Bill didn't have a Will either. If you choose to participate in a sport like this (or diving) and something happens, don't put your family through the pain of "the State taking over", "not knowing what Bill would have wanted"...it's hard enough to cope w/your loved ones death.....PLEASE...PLEASE...get a Will and write down how you would like to be buried and let someone know where it is.... It only costs around $200 ...it will be worth it.
Finally I met alot of you at the memorial service and want to thank everyone for all their support thru this. For those of you that write on this site...please remember...when something like this happens, the family goes to these sites to read them to "help understand".
Deanna Priday (Bill's younger Sister)
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Girl on High
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:59 am
- Location: Roswell, GA
((((Deanna)))) thank you for coming here and sharing. Those that were there, those that think they could have, should have done something...need to forgive themselves. We all do.
Forgiveness is letting go of the hope that something in the past will change.
We can and should, hope for the future....that this won't happen again.
peace.
Forgiveness is letting go of the hope that something in the past will change.
We can and should, hope for the future....that this won't happen again.
peace.
Thanks Deanna for the wise words. I agree with all you said, and hopefully others will too. Some of your points we already practice (such as having a mentor---we call them Observers)...and others---like the buddy system---are certainly worth considering. Steve Wendt (Bill's instructor) has already talked about instituting preflight hang checks (meaning literally getting down on the ground and hanging in your harness, just like you'd do in the mountains) for all of his students at the flight park---just to get them into the habit of doing it---even if they don't need to do it for a towed launch.
One thing I'm sure of is this: if we (the hang gliding community) just leave it at "Bill just wasn't careful" and move on, there most definitely will be another death from not hooking in. It's just a matter of time. So I hope we can begin a process of changing (or adding to) long-held traditions---even if it takes a while.
Scott
One thing I'm sure of is this: if we (the hang gliding community) just leave it at "Bill just wasn't careful" and move on, there most definitely will be another death from not hooking in. It's just a matter of time. So I hope we can begin a process of changing (or adding to) long-held traditions---even if it takes a while.
Scott
Thoughts on responsibility...
Seems to me like we "do" do actual suspension hang-checks at flight
parks. Is this not universal? - Hugh
parks. Is this not universal? - Hugh
Re: Thoughts on responsibility...
If you mean we have to hang first anyway to aerotow (or truck tow), that's true---pretty hard to do those unhooked! I think Steve's point was to get people doing a hang check on the ground, before they even get to the cart. Yeah, I know---you might have to unhook to get in the cart, then hook in again. Steve didn't say it was a good idea, just looking for ways to instill the "get down on the ground" mentality in new pilots training at the towpark. And yes, I know---you don't have to get down on the ground. (Please don't nitpick me to death on silly little points like that!mcelrah wrote:Seems to me like we "do" do actual suspension hang-checks at flight
parks. Is this not universal? - Hugh
)Scott
Thoughts on responsibility...
Seems to me a member of the crew asks if you have had a hang check,
makes sure you are suspended from the carabiner (locked), legs are
through leg loops, zippers, buckles, parachute pins, helmet strap,
that all lines are straight, plus checks tow rig - everything over
the bar, etc. (I usually run a check on the Lookout tow release to
make sure it will.) Now I don't want to start the whole "pilot
responsibility" loop again - I take charge of running the check list,
but it's clear that if I don't do it, the crew will... - Hugh
P.S. This is all on top of the Australian method...
makes sure you are suspended from the carabiner (locked), legs are
through leg loops, zippers, buckles, parachute pins, helmet strap,
that all lines are straight, plus checks tow rig - everything over
the bar, etc. (I usually run a check on the Lookout tow release to
make sure it will.) Now I don't want to start the whole "pilot
responsibility" loop again - I take charge of running the check list,
but it's clear that if I don't do it, the crew will... - Hugh
P.S. This is all on top of the Australian method...
I think the whole idea is to somehow embed the footlaunch hang check into tow pilots' brains. With respect to Matthew, Chris, et. al. (who perpetually wail on me about this ) I think the only way to do it is to spend a lot of time at the training hill. I did this before going to the towpark, with 75+ training hill flights with John Middleton---doing a hang check before each and every flight, as John taught us. (So I'm far from a "pure" towpark pilot.) I'm sure that helps make hang checks a part of anyone's process. (And yes Matthew, Chris, et. al., I'll be at Smithsburg as soon as it's open!)
Scott
) I think the only way to do it is to spend a lot of time at the training hill. I did this before going to the towpark, with 75+ training hill flights with John Middleton---doing a hang check before each and every flight, as John taught us. (So I'm far from a "pure" towpark pilot.) I'm sure that helps make hang checks a part of anyone's process. (And yes Matthew, Chris, et. al., I'll be at Smithsburg as soon as it's open!)Scott