I already see where the anger and grief take us. We need to do hang checks, double hang checks. And who was on Bill's wire crew? How could they let that happen?
When Bob Gillessee got hurt I suggested that our local institution of the hang check is more the problem than the solution. I still believe that. It subverts the pilots responsibility to perform a hook-in check. I often do not see pilots doing a hook in check. Why should they? They just did a hang check and they are surrounded by friends who will make sure this box is checked.
But what if there is no hang check and you are used to one?
DO A HOOK IN CHECK. you need a system that you do every time regardless of how many hang checks you have been subjected to that assures you are hooked in.
Hooking In
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
-
Paul Tjaden
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:28 pm
Hooking In
In a message dated 10/1/2005 10:46:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, steven_kinsley@yahoo.com writes:
Another way to insure you're hooked in is to?attach your harness as part of your glider set up procedure and then leave it there (the Australian method). Matthew Graham is a proponent of this and because he was one of my mentors while learning to fly the mountains, I started doing it too. The only problem you can get into with this method is if you unhook after you have crawled into your harness for some reason but if you're strict about it, you just get out of the harness instead of unhooking.
?
I posted news of Bill's accident on the OZ Report forum yesterday afternoon and one of the first replies was from Australia. "Why would anyone ever remove their harness from their aeroplane?"
?
Paul
DO A HOOK IN CHECK.? you need a system that you do every time regardless of how many hang checks you have been subjected to that assures you are hooked in.
Another way to insure you're hooked in is to?attach your harness as part of your glider set up procedure and then leave it there (the Australian method). Matthew Graham is a proponent of this and because he was one of my mentors while learning to fly the mountains, I started doing it too. The only problem you can get into with this method is if you unhook after you have crawled into your harness for some reason but if you're strict about it, you just get out of the harness instead of unhooking.
?
I posted news of Bill's accident on the OZ Report forum yesterday afternoon and one of the first replies was from Australia. "Why would anyone ever remove their harness from their aeroplane?"
?
Paul
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batmanh3
I've always been a die-hard fan of the Aussie method, but I can not do it with my new Viper harness. Its a bitch to get into normally, let alone do it while attached to the glider. I'm just committed to having a set pre-takeoff routine with checks/doublechecks prior to flying. Would love any input on any Viper harness owners and if they are able to get hooked in via Aussie style.
C
C
-
batmanh3
Something I have never understood with our sport and with accidents like this happening every year, I am at a loss. In every form of organized aviation, be that military or general avation, we live & die by a checklist. Especially in multi-piloted aircraft, we check and cross check to make sure nothing has been missed. During flight school, I was required to have my checklist in hand and my hand in physical contact with the skin of the aircraft on every preflight. The only time I was allowed to remove my hand from contact with my aircraft was to turn the page of my checklist, and God help me if I was on the wrong page as I continued. I don't understand why we don't have a checklist. I had a written checklist when I first started flying hang gliders and have since let the written part wist away. I still do a full preflight and revert back to my training and touch my glider all the way around. I am just as guilty for not having it written down anymore, but hopefully my preflight routine has been ingrained enough. I just can't understand how a hang check can be missed. There is only 1 thing holding us up against gravity and that is a simple carabiner hooked thru 2 pieces of nylon webbing. I guess I'm just venting, but God I hope that everyone who flies any form of aviation understands how important a preflight is. I am so paranoid about preflight and hooking in that I check at least 5 times every time I fly to make sure everything is where I put it and nothing has come undone. I'm not saying that you have to be Obsessive-Compulsive like I am, but this is the most preventable accident we could ever experience. Its not us against Mother Nature, its us against ourselves. If I'm on launch crew, its the first thing I look at when a person is coming up the ramp. I don't care if your GPS is set or your camelbak is in place. I look to make sure you are hooked in. The sad thing to say is I caught Bill unhooked on launch at the Pulpit Fly-In and made him do a full hang check before I would wire him off. Obviously this was not ingrained into his routine or it wasn't beaten into him enough during his training. As Instructors and Observers, we MUST ensure that new hang glider pilots are trained in proper preflight. It must be a routine and not something that is taken lightly. Once you are qualified as an H2, you are the pilot of your aircraft. It is yours and yours alone responsibility to preflight your aircraft and ensure proper safety. A wire crew doublechecking you is not something you can count on. If you begin to count on them to catch your mistakes, you run the risk of failure in a self-launch condition or with inexperienced wire crew. Half of the posts on this forum are people asking how to program their GPS or how to go XC. Make sure you worry about the most basic off all principals of flight and that is ensure you do it safely. I really hope this is a wake up call to all of us old and new pilots alike and that you realize you are mortal. Spend more time preflighting and making sure you will take off and return to terra firma safely. With nearly 20 years of flying experience, I've lost more friends to pilot error than I have to enemy fire. Please don't add yourself to my list. Preflight. Preflight again. Be paranoid and continue to check until its second nature.
Chris
Chris
-
Lauren Tjaden
- Posts: 371
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:27 pm
Hooking In
I find it is easy for me to forget details, so?I have a laminated card with a hook-in checklist in my harness pocket that I go through every time before?I launch. It makes it easier for me to relax since I don't have to worry about forgetting something. For towing, once I am in the cart. I hold my bridle over the top of my basetube to be hooked up to the towline, in order to avoid it being improperly routed.
Lauren
batmanh3 <batmanh3@yahoo.com> wrote:
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Lauren
batmanh3 <batmanh3@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yahoo! for GoodSomething I have never understood with our sport and with accidents like this happening every year, I am at a loss. In every form of organized aviation, be that military or general avation, we live & die by a checklist. Especially in multi-piloted aircraft, we check and cross check to make sure nothing has been missed. During flight school, I was required to have my checklist in hand and my hand in physical contact with the skin of the aircraft on every preflight. The only time I was allowed to remove my hand from contact with my aircraft was to turn the page of my checklist, and God help me if I was on the wrong page as I continued. I don't understand why we don't have a checklist. I had a written checklist when I first started flying hang gliders and have since let the written part wist away. I still do a full preflight and revert back to my training and touch my glider all the way around. I am just as guilty for not having it written down anymore, but hopefully my preflight routine has been ingrained enough. I just can't understand how a hang check can be missed. There is only 1 thing holding us up against gravity and that is a simple carabiner hooked thru 2 pieces of nylon webbing. I guess I'm just venting, but God I hope that everyone who flies any form of aviation understands how important a preflight is. I am so paranoid about preflight and hooking in that I check at least 5 times every time I fly to make sure everything is where I put it and nothing has come undone. I'm not saying that you have to be Obsessive-Compulsive like I am, but this is the most preventable accident we could ever experience. Its not us against Mother Nature, its us against ourselves. If I'm on launch crew, its the first thing I look at when a person is coming up the ramp. I don't care if your GPS is set or your camelbak is in place. I look to make sure you are hooked in. The sad thing to say is I caught Bill unhooked on launch at the Pulpit Fly-In and made him do a full hang check before I would wire him off. Obviously this was not ingrained into his routine or it wasn't beaten into him enough during his training. As Instructors and Observers, we MUST ensure that new hang glider pilots are trained in proper preflight. It must be a routine and not something that is taken lightly. Once you are qualified as an H2, you are the pilot of your aircraft. It is yours and yours alone responsibility to preflight your aircraft and ensure proper safety. A wire crew doublechecking you is not something you can count on. If you begin to count on them to catch your mistakes, you run the risk of failure in a self-launch condition or with inexperienced wire crew. Half of the posts on this forum are people asking how to program their GPS or how to go XC. Make sure you worry about the most basic off all principals of flight and that is ensure you do it safely. I really hope this is a wake up call to all of us old and new pilots alike and that you realize you are mortal. Spend more time preflighting and making sure you will take off and return to terra firma safely. With nearly 20 years of flying experience, I've lost more friends to pilot error than I have to enemy fire. Please don't add yourself to my list. Preflight. Preflight again. Be paranoid and continue to check until its second nature.
ChrisBatman
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
In 1976 I launched unhooked during a windy assisted cliff launch. By some miracle, I walked away from that idiotic mistake without more than a few bruises. It is something that I am not proud of, and I occasionally wonder why I survived.
Maybe talking about it can serve as additional motiviation.
The feeling of terror and helplessness that arises while you are hanging below the basetube by your fingers ... is something you don't ever want to experience.
Maybe talking about it can serve as additional motiviation.
The feeling of terror and helplessness that arises while you are hanging below the basetube by your fingers ... is something you don't ever want to experience.
'Spark
-
drice21037
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:00 pm
- Location: Annapolis, MD
Hooking In
For a while I've been thinking it would be a good idea to create a checklist
for assembly, preflight and prelaunch. Yesterday I did it by reviewing my
owner's manual to see what steps it recommended. Guess what, there were things
it told me to check that I don't check. If that's the case for me and my
single surface Falcon, I wonder what surprises might be waiting for a Talon
pilot. I think they have more battens than my glider has parts!
Seems kinda stupid that, until yesterday, I had developed checklists of things
to take flying but not one for the flying itself.
Dave
Quoting batmanh3 <batmanh3@yahoo.com>:
> I don't understand why we
> don't have a checklist. I had a written checklist when I first started
> flying hang gliders and have since let the written part wist away. I still
> do a full preflight and revert back to my training and touch my glider all
> the way around. I am just as guilty for not having it written down anymore,
> but hopefully my preflight routine has been ingrained enough.
>
> ChrisBatman
>
for assembly, preflight and prelaunch. Yesterday I did it by reviewing my
owner's manual to see what steps it recommended. Guess what, there were things
it told me to check that I don't check. If that's the case for me and my
single surface Falcon, I wonder what surprises might be waiting for a Talon
pilot. I think they have more battens than my glider has parts!
Seems kinda stupid that, until yesterday, I had developed checklists of things
to take flying but not one for the flying itself.
Dave
Quoting batmanh3 <batmanh3@yahoo.com>:
> I don't understand why we
> don't have a checklist. I had a written checklist when I first started
> flying hang gliders and have since let the written part wist away. I still
> do a full preflight and revert back to my training and touch my glider all
> the way around. I am just as guilty for not having it written down anymore,
> but hopefully my preflight routine has been ingrained enough.
>
> ChrisBatman
>
-
Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
I have personally launched unhooked--and have caught many others preparing to launch unhooked--including one pilot who has been contributing to this thread and one of the world's top pilots at a major comp.
I am not disagreeing with anything that anyone has said. I am not trying to tell anyone how they should do things.
For the first decade or so of flying I had a system which I used which was a memorized sytem of preflight items for wing and harness. It had always worked for me and I had complete confidence in my system.
Then there was Bob Gillissee's accident which came very close to killing him. I remember visiting him at his home after one of several reconstructive surgeries and talking to him all about his accident. I absorbed all his reflections and, when driving home, resolved that I would improve my system even further, even though I felt intuitively that I would never make that mistake myself.
The very next day, at High Point, I launched unhooked on my Laminar ST 14.
After doing several sumersaults and the swirling stars cleared, I looked around expecting to see the wreckage of my glider from a blown launch--but it was nowhere to be seen. It then hit me like a bolt of lightening that I had committed hang-gliding's mortal sin. Seconds later--it hit me that my system had failed me and that I needed to get on the Aussie bandwagon if I wanted to survive in this sport.
But that is not what I'm trying to get at in this post.
A failure in my system was a catastrophic event which could have cost me my life, I was lucky in that I was at a gentle slope launch.
I do not argue against the use of a preflight check list--but I believe that there is an insideous danger to becoming over-reliant upon them. My reasoning is that you can become complacent in expecting events to fit within the framework of your checklist, which for most pilots is rather short.
The real problem is when something unplanned for happens that is not incorporated within the framework of your checklist.
In my case, I had already been preflighted, hang-checked on launch, and was waiting around to pick a good cycle. My radio fell out of my harness and I had to reach over to get it, but couldn't quite reach it without unhooking.
There are probably many other possibilities that cannot be planned for in a conventional preflight check list.
I'm not saying don't use checklists--just don't develop a reliance on them as if they are going to save your butt every time.
marc
I am not disagreeing with anything that anyone has said. I am not trying to tell anyone how they should do things.
For the first decade or so of flying I had a system which I used which was a memorized sytem of preflight items for wing and harness. It had always worked for me and I had complete confidence in my system.
Then there was Bob Gillissee's accident which came very close to killing him. I remember visiting him at his home after one of several reconstructive surgeries and talking to him all about his accident. I absorbed all his reflections and, when driving home, resolved that I would improve my system even further, even though I felt intuitively that I would never make that mistake myself.
The very next day, at High Point, I launched unhooked on my Laminar ST 14.
After doing several sumersaults and the swirling stars cleared, I looked around expecting to see the wreckage of my glider from a blown launch--but it was nowhere to be seen. It then hit me like a bolt of lightening that I had committed hang-gliding's mortal sin. Seconds later--it hit me that my system had failed me and that I needed to get on the Aussie bandwagon if I wanted to survive in this sport.
But that is not what I'm trying to get at in this post.
A failure in my system was a catastrophic event which could have cost me my life, I was lucky in that I was at a gentle slope launch.
I do not argue against the use of a preflight check list--but I believe that there is an insideous danger to becoming over-reliant upon them. My reasoning is that you can become complacent in expecting events to fit within the framework of your checklist, which for most pilots is rather short.
The real problem is when something unplanned for happens that is not incorporated within the framework of your checklist.
In my case, I had already been preflighted, hang-checked on launch, and was waiting around to pick a good cycle. My radio fell out of my harness and I had to reach over to get it, but couldn't quite reach it without unhooking.
There are probably many other possibilities that cannot be planned for in a conventional preflight check list.
I'm not saying don't use checklists--just don't develop a reliance on them as if they are going to save your butt every time.
marc
Great Googly-moo!
-
batmanh3
I will argue reliance on a checklist as I have lived with them for over 3,000 hours of military aircraft flight time. As a military pilot, I have a preflight checklist, an engine starting checklist, a pre-takeoff checklist, a pre-landing checklist, a post-flight checklist and a mission checklist. I don't think that much indepth of a system is appropriate for hang gliding, but the mentality behind it is. After your basic preflight you are done. You do a hang check (pre-takeoff check) right before flight. If you do anything out of the normal cycle i.e. having to unhook to restow gear, etc, you return to the beginning of your hang check and start from the beginning to make sure you do not miss a step. You don't have to re-preflight your glider, but you've set yourself up for a repeatable routine. Once you involve yourself in something outside of normal hang check, you set yourself up for failure if you do not repeat it from start. As I said, I'm OCD, but I have gone so far to take my glider off of the cart at Ridgely and reset myself at the end of the line to make sure I haven't missed anything in my haste. I can't force anyone to do as I do, but I can recommend that you adopt a repeatable process for prechecks and don't let anything distract you unless you are willing to complete it once you deal with the distraction.
Chris
Chris
-
Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
Again, I said I do not argue against checklist use--but any checklist is only as good as the range of possible events it encompasses. Therefore, I would stick with a checklist system as a starting point, but not rely on it as all-encompassing in all situations.
Vigilence is key. I think of it this way: Murphy is a little devil who is relentlessly looking for a new way to creep into our flight system. He knows that all it takes is a small slip in order to create a serious accident or death. He waits patiently, knowing that complacency is often the companion of reliance. But that's just MY odd way of looking at things, and I do not recommend anyone view things differently or abandon using checklists.
marc
Vigilence is key. I think of it this way: Murphy is a little devil who is relentlessly looking for a new way to creep into our flight system. He knows that all it takes is a small slip in order to create a serious accident or death. He waits patiently, knowing that complacency is often the companion of reliance. But that's just MY odd way of looking at things, and I do not recommend anyone view things differently or abandon using checklists.
marc
Great Googly-moo!
-
batmanh3
Hooking In
I used to fly a Viper and always had it hooked in. What are you having a
problem with? Do you have 2 separate leg loops or do you have the straps
that are sewn in with the waist buckle?
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: batmanh3 [mailto:batmanh3@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:30 AM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Hooking In
I've always been a die-hard fan of the Aussie method, but I can not do it
with my new Viper harness. Its a bitch to get into normally, let alone do
it while attached to the glider. I'm just committed to having a set
pre-takeoff routine with checks/doublechecks prior to flying. Would love
any input on any Viper harness owners and if they are able to get hooked in
via Aussie style.
CBatman
problem with? Do you have 2 separate leg loops or do you have the straps
that are sewn in with the waist buckle?
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: batmanh3 [mailto:batmanh3@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:30 AM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Hooking In
I've always been a die-hard fan of the Aussie method, but I can not do it
with my new Viper harness. Its a bitch to get into normally, let alone do
it while attached to the glider. I'm just committed to having a set
pre-takeoff routine with checks/doublechecks prior to flying. Would love
any input on any Viper harness owners and if they are able to get hooked in
via Aussie style.
CBatman
Just a couple thoughts.
Checklists are good in the flying game. They do prevent errors and thus accidents but they are not full proof. I have a few hours in the military and a couple in the commercial world. Both use checklists but we still seemed to have pilots forget to put the landing gear down or land at the correct airport on occasion.
What I believe is really helpful in flying is self discipline to do the necessary correct procedures the same way ever time we fly. That translates into always doing a full preflight of the glider, the harness, helmet, and hang check before getting to launch. Then it is the double check of the hang check and visual last look at the glider followed by a review of proper launch technique for the launch of the day.
Needless to say as much as I try to do this ever time I have failed to follow it on a few occasions and gotten into trouble i.e. blown launches.
The other thought is the confidence factor as we learn to fly. As we finally get some proficiency we get some confidence. My experience is that nearly every pilot goes thru a period of confidence which is really a little too much confidence when he/she first develops some proficiency in their flying. I have found it takes a couple of years after that before a fully accurate view of a persons own proficiency prevails. This pattern applies each time we fly an new type of flying machine. My previous fixed wing experience did not make me a proficient hang glider pilot. I am no more experienced at hang glider flying than the person that never flew anything before.
Joe
Checklists are good in the flying game. They do prevent errors and thus accidents but they are not full proof. I have a few hours in the military and a couple in the commercial world. Both use checklists but we still seemed to have pilots forget to put the landing gear down or land at the correct airport on occasion.
What I believe is really helpful in flying is self discipline to do the necessary correct procedures the same way ever time we fly. That translates into always doing a full preflight of the glider, the harness, helmet, and hang check before getting to launch. Then it is the double check of the hang check and visual last look at the glider followed by a review of proper launch technique for the launch of the day.
Needless to say as much as I try to do this ever time I have failed to follow it on a few occasions and gotten into trouble i.e. blown launches.
The other thought is the confidence factor as we learn to fly. As we finally get some proficiency we get some confidence. My experience is that nearly every pilot goes thru a period of confidence which is really a little too much confidence when he/she first develops some proficiency in their flying. I have found it takes a couple of years after that before a fully accurate view of a persons own proficiency prevails. This pattern applies each time we fly an new type of flying machine. My previous fixed wing experience did not make me a proficient hang glider pilot. I am no more experienced at hang glider flying than the person that never flew anything before.
Joe
Hooking In
I fly with a Viper too and don't have a problem using the Aussie method.? Generally, climbing into any harness when it is attached to the glider is a little awkward at first, but it seems easy enough now.
?
On my Viper, the straps are sewn in with the waist buckle.
?
Tom McGowan
Kevin <heaviek@yahoo.com> wrote:
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
?
On my Viper, the straps are sewn in with the waist buckle.
?
Tom McGowan
Kevin <heaviek@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yahoo! for GoodI used to fly a Viper and always had it hooked in. What are you having a
problem with? Do you have 2 separate leg loops or do you have the straps
that are sewn in with the waist buckle?
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: batmanh3 [mailto:batmanh3@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:30 AM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Hooking In
I've always been a die-hard fan of the Aussie method, but I can not do it
with my new Viper harness. Its a bitch to get into normally, let alone do
it while attached to the glider. I'm just committed to having a set
pre-takeoff routine with checks/doublechecks prior to flying. Would love
any input on any Viper harness owners and if they are able to get hooked in
via Aussie style.
CBatman
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Hooking In
?
To add my two cents to Joe's thoughts and to check lists:?
?
I don't have anything against check lists.? It's just that hang gliders are so simple, I don't need to write everything down to remember them.? What I do need to remember is to actually do my mental checklist.? Putting a piece of paper on the basetube/downtube with checklist items is a good idea because it serves as a reminder.? I used to?keep my vario cover on?my vario until I did a hang check.? I thought people?(including me) would?check?the vario even if we were rushing because a vario?is so important to soaring.? I guess I need to go back to that system.
?
However,?check lists or vario covers are not foolproof.? I wired Bob off of the Pulpit unhooked.? We all hung out on launch for 10-15 minutes enjoying the day, waiting?patiently for a cycle for Bob.? No one was in a?hurry?or too focused on soaring.? I remember reading?to myself the works "Hook-in" that were on the streamers on his nose wires.? He still launched unhooked, and I did not catch it.?
?
Although our club may have a lot of rules compared to other areas around the country, I have always been glad that so many people here take the time to check up on other pilots.? To the pilots who helped Bill with his hang check?at the Pulpit - Good Job!? I hope that we can all be as viligant.
?
Tom McGowan
Joe Schad <jgs1942@shentel.net> wrote:
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
To add my two cents to Joe's thoughts and to check lists:?
?
I don't have anything against check lists.? It's just that hang gliders are so simple, I don't need to write everything down to remember them.? What I do need to remember is to actually do my mental checklist.? Putting a piece of paper on the basetube/downtube with checklist items is a good idea because it serves as a reminder.? I used to?keep my vario cover on?my vario until I did a hang check.? I thought people?(including me) would?check?the vario even if we were rushing because a vario?is so important to soaring.? I guess I need to go back to that system.
?
However,?check lists or vario covers are not foolproof.? I wired Bob off of the Pulpit unhooked.? We all hung out on launch for 10-15 minutes enjoying the day, waiting?patiently for a cycle for Bob.? No one was in a?hurry?or too focused on soaring.? I remember reading?to myself the works "Hook-in" that were on the streamers on his nose wires.? He still launched unhooked, and I did not catch it.?
?
Although our club may have a lot of rules compared to other areas around the country, I have always been glad that so many people here take the time to check up on other pilots.? To the pilots who helped Bill with his hang check?at the Pulpit - Good Job!? I hope that we can all be as viligant.
?
Tom McGowan
Joe Schad <jgs1942@shentel.net> wrote:
Yahoo! for GoodJust a couple thoughts.
Checklists are good in the flying game. They do prevent errors and thus accidents but they are not full proof. I have a few hours in the military and a couple in the commercial world. Both use checklists but we still seemed to have pilots forget to put the landing gear down or land at the correct airport on occasion.
What I believe is really helpful in flying is self discipline to do the necessary correct procedures the same way ever time we fly. That translates into always doing a full preflight of the glider, the harness, helmet, and hang check before getting to launch. Then it is the double check of the hang check and visual last look at the glider followed by a review of proper launch technique for the launch of the day.
Needless to say as much as I try to do this ever time I have failed to follow it on a few occasions and gotten into trouble i.e. blown launches.
The other thought is the confidence factor as we learn to fly. As we finally get some proficiency we get some confidence. My experience is that nearly every pilot goes thru a period of confidence which is really a little too much confidence when he/she first develops some proficiency in their flying. I have found it takes a couple of years after that before a fully accurate view of a persons own proficiency prevails. This pattern applies each time we fly an new type of flying machine. My previous fixed wing experience did not make me a proficient hang glider pilot. I am no more experienced at hang glider flying than the person that never flew anything before.
Joe
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
-
Paul Tjaden
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:28 pm
Hooking In
In a message dated 10/3/2005 9:30:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, batmanh3@yahoo.com writes:
When I flew a Litespeed I never had a problem climbing into my?Viper while it was hooked in to my glider. I have separate leg loops and then attach them to my waist buckle with two loops of strong rope. Not sure what your issue might be.
My ATOS is a different story. the control frame is SO small that there is very little room to crawl under the glider and try to suit up. While aero towing I usually place the glider on the cart first to get it higher and get more room. I have never foot launched the ATOS and I'm not sure how I'd handle that issue. Problem is...if I get in my harness first, it's almost impossible to crawl under the glider and hook in without help.
The rigid wings fly great but are a pain in the ass on the ground.
?
Paul T.
I've always been a die-hard fan of the Aussie method, but I can not do it with my new Viper harness.? Its a bitch to get into normally, let alone do it while attached to the glider.? I'm just committed to having a set pre-takeoff routine with checks/doublechecks prior to flying.? Would love any input on any Viper harness owners and if they are able to get hooked in via Aussie style.
CBatman
When I flew a Litespeed I never had a problem climbing into my?Viper while it was hooked in to my glider. I have separate leg loops and then attach them to my waist buckle with two loops of strong rope. Not sure what your issue might be.
My ATOS is a different story. the control frame is SO small that there is very little room to crawl under the glider and try to suit up. While aero towing I usually place the glider on the cart first to get it higher and get more room. I have never foot launched the ATOS and I'm not sure how I'd handle that issue. Problem is...if I get in my harness first, it's almost impossible to crawl under the glider and hook in without help.
The rigid wings fly great but are a pain in the ass on the ground.
?
Paul T.
-
Paul Tjaden
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:28 pm
Hooking In
Excellent post, Chris.
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Paul
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Paul
During one hang check at Highland a few summers ago I was stunned to hear dear Kristen mention ever so casually that I was not in my leg loops. At the end of all my hang checks the last thing I do is make sure I can hang from my legstraps, if Kristen had not caught it hopefully my last line of defense would have.
I knew exactly how it happened, I was kidding around with her, making levity as I was setting up on the cart and getting in my harness and I got distracted from a very important step in my setup routine. My lesson that day was to cool it with the joking or any other distractions while involved with any phase of pre-flight setup and readiness (that's setup through launch).
Distractions and improper mindset can severely interfere with that checklist. Too much enthusiasm prior to flight can be dangerous and cause us to be in a hurry. When conditions are booming, pilots are launching, and I am just arriving, I have had to really rein in my excitement and keep telling myself to be patient and slow down.
Focusing on some kind of agenda prior to flight is another thing that comes to my mind as a dangerous distraction. For example, while setting up I might be focusing more on that XC with the group or maybe being the first to launch in good conditions and get ahead of the others. I feel I must almost put myself into some kind of Zen state to keep my focus were it needs to be at the proper time.
This sport also has a way of exploiting our character defects, our need for attention, impatience, stuborness, arrogance, whatever (I raise up my own hand here not anyone elses). It has taught me alot about myself in this regard and I know I have much to still learn. There are alot of good examples (pilots) out there to follow. I think the safest pilots are the most mature ones. I observe there are many out there, let us all follow thier lead. Bill's passing has led me to a renewed committment to work on those things I need to to become a more safer and responsible pilot. I agree with Chris when he said we don't fight Mother Nature, we fight ourselves. Well said Chris.
I knew exactly how it happened, I was kidding around with her, making levity as I was setting up on the cart and getting in my harness and I got distracted from a very important step in my setup routine. My lesson that day was to cool it with the joking or any other distractions while involved with any phase of pre-flight setup and readiness (that's setup through launch).
Distractions and improper mindset can severely interfere with that checklist. Too much enthusiasm prior to flight can be dangerous and cause us to be in a hurry. When conditions are booming, pilots are launching, and I am just arriving, I have had to really rein in my excitement and keep telling myself to be patient and slow down.
Focusing on some kind of agenda prior to flight is another thing that comes to my mind as a dangerous distraction. For example, while setting up I might be focusing more on that XC with the group or maybe being the first to launch in good conditions and get ahead of the others. I feel I must almost put myself into some kind of Zen state to keep my focus were it needs to be at the proper time.
This sport also has a way of exploiting our character defects, our need for attention, impatience, stuborness, arrogance, whatever (I raise up my own hand here not anyone elses). It has taught me alot about myself in this regard and I know I have much to still learn. There are alot of good examples (pilots) out there to follow. I think the safest pilots are the most mature ones. I observe there are many out there, let us all follow thier lead. Bill's passing has led me to a renewed committment to work on those things I need to to become a more safer and responsible pilot. I agree with Chris when he said we don't fight Mother Nature, we fight ourselves. Well said Chris.
Paul Adamez
Been out of town... Couldn't *believe* the news about Bill's death.
I just met him at the Pulpit Fly-In, where I greatly enjoyed his music
and the clear enthusiasm he felt about his two flights at the site. I was
looking forward to flying with him. Damn. My condolences to Bill's family.
I thought that this thread might be the appropriate place for a few
links about hook-in issues that were prompted by events back in 1997 :
http://www.chgpa.org/Education/hookin.tips.html
http://www.chgpa.org/Education/hookin.accident.html
http://www.chgpa.org/Education/checklist.article.html
http://www.chgpa.org/Education/chgpa.checklist.html
If these are new to you, please take a moment and look them over.
And if anyone has suggestions for additions or corrections, please
let me know.
MarkC
I just met him at the Pulpit Fly-In, where I greatly enjoyed his music
and the clear enthusiasm he felt about his two flights at the site. I was
looking forward to flying with him. Damn. My condolences to Bill's family.
I thought that this thread might be the appropriate place for a few
links about hook-in issues that were prompted by events back in 1997 :
http://www.chgpa.org/Education/hookin.tips.html
http://www.chgpa.org/Education/hookin.accident.html
http://www.chgpa.org/Education/checklist.article.html
http://www.chgpa.org/Education/chgpa.checklist.html
If these are new to you, please take a moment and look them over.
And if anyone has suggestions for additions or corrections, please
let me know.
MarkC
Couple other thoughts...
Steve expresses concern that the "local institution" of hang checks
can actually be a contributor to the risk of launching un-hooked .
If you are relying solely on your wirecrew for feedback /
confirmation, then I'd say that his concern has merit.
But if that hang check (observed by wire crew if they happen to be there)
is always initiated and run by the pilot-in-command, then risks
are lower. Why? Because you are taking responsibility for the check,
and you also have additional pairs of eyes looking things over.
Redundancy is a good thing.
I see far too many "passive" pilots, who basically hang there while the
crew checks things over. That is completely bass-ackwards!
Here's what I say as I begin an observed hang-check :
"Do you have pitch? Thanks! I'm going to run a little checklist
here. If you see a problem or have any questions, please let
me know afterwards, ok?"
Then I run it.
I also deliberately pick some element of the check and ask
for feedback from the crew. If they are too little involved, then you
lose the advantage of additional pairs of eyes.
For unobserved hang checks, I follow the same protocol, verbally
proceeding through the list. And then I look over that shoulder again.
And semi-prone-out again. And grab the 'biner again. Etc.
Launching unhooked happens because we are human and we
make mistakes. There's no magic solution that will guarantee it
will never happen to you. The best we can do is to mitigate the
risk, perhaps by using several different techniques.
Fly safe! Watch out for yourself and for your friends!
MarkC
Steve expresses concern that the "local institution" of hang checks
can actually be a contributor to the risk of launching un-hooked .
If you are relying solely on your wirecrew for feedback /
confirmation, then I'd say that his concern has merit.
But if that hang check (observed by wire crew if they happen to be there)
is always initiated and run by the pilot-in-command, then risks
are lower. Why? Because you are taking responsibility for the check,
and you also have additional pairs of eyes looking things over.
Redundancy is a good thing.
I see far too many "passive" pilots, who basically hang there while the
crew checks things over. That is completely bass-ackwards!
Here's what I say as I begin an observed hang-check :
"Do you have pitch? Thanks! I'm going to run a little checklist
here. If you see a problem or have any questions, please let
me know afterwards, ok?"
Then I run it.
I also deliberately pick some element of the check and ask
for feedback from the crew. If they are too little involved, then you
lose the advantage of additional pairs of eyes.
For unobserved hang checks, I follow the same protocol, verbally
proceeding through the list. And then I look over that shoulder again.
And semi-prone-out again. And grab the 'biner again. Etc.
Launching unhooked happens because we are human and we
make mistakes. There's no magic solution that will guarantee it
will never happen to you. The best we can do is to mitigate the
risk, perhaps by using several different techniques.
Fly safe! Watch out for yourself and for your friends!
MarkC
-
Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
Not to embarass you publicly--but there was that time at Taylor's when a certain pilot you know VERY well launched unhooked!markc wrote:Couple other thoughts...
Steve expresses concern that the "local institution" of hang checks
can actually be a contributor to the risk of launching un-hooked .
If you are relying solely on your wirecrew for feedback /
confirmation, then I'd say that his concern has merit.
But if that hang check (observed by wire crew if they happen to be there)
is always initiated and run by the pilot-in-command, then risks
are lower. Why? Because you are taking responsibility for the check,
and you also have additional pairs of eyes looking things over.
Redundancy is a good thing.
I see far too many "passive" pilots, who basically hang there while the
crew checks things over. That is completely bass-ackwards!
Here's what I say as I begin an observed hang-check :
"Do you have pitch? Thanks! I'm going to run a little checklist
here. If you see a problem or have any questions, please let
me know afterwards, ok?"
Then I run it.
I also deliberately pick some element of the check and ask
for feedback from the crew. If they are too little involved, then you
lose the advantage of additional pairs of eyes.
For unobserved hang checks, I follow the same protocol, verbally
proceeding through the list. And then I look over that shoulder again.
And semi-prone-out again. And grab the 'biner again. Etc.
Launching unhooked happens because we are human and we
make mistakes. There's no magic solution that will guarantee it
will never happen to you. The best we can do is to mitigate the
risk, perhaps by using several different techniques.
Fly safe! Watch out for yourself and for your friends!
MarkC
marc
Great Googly-moo!
So.... What's your damn point Marc?
Yes, I'm am also one to have launched unhooked, luckily
at a training hill when I was working on my Hang-II. No
damage to either me or the Dream I was flying, thankfully.
From that moment on (1994?), I eagerly looked forward
to the day when I would have something other than a knee-
hanger, so that I could use the 'Aussie method'.
(Crawling into a k-hanger, and then getting your legs hooked
up, is a major pain in the butt.)
And I well remember the very first time I hooked my brand
new pod harness to my glider, and then climbed into it prior
to flying. It was a great feeling, and finally quieted some
of the unease I'd felt since that t-hill day.
Is it your opinion that everyone posting here must disclose
every mistake they've ever made in their flying careers
before their comments have any merit?
Not that I'm bothered by discussing this... I long-ago shared
my hook-in story, at a club meeting and in personal conversations
with new pilots.
But what I am bothered by is your 1-liner reply to a carefully
thought out post. Ask yourself what contribution it made.
--mark
Yes, I'm am also one to have launched unhooked, luckily
at a training hill when I was working on my Hang-II. No
damage to either me or the Dream I was flying, thankfully.
From that moment on (1994?), I eagerly looked forward
to the day when I would have something other than a knee-
hanger, so that I could use the 'Aussie method'.
(Crawling into a k-hanger, and then getting your legs hooked
up, is a major pain in the butt.)
And I well remember the very first time I hooked my brand
new pod harness to my glider, and then climbed into it prior
to flying. It was a great feeling, and finally quieted some
of the unease I'd felt since that t-hill day.
Is it your opinion that everyone posting here must disclose
every mistake they've ever made in their flying careers
before their comments have any merit?
Not that I'm bothered by discussing this... I long-ago shared
my hook-in story, at a club meeting and in personal conversations
with new pilots.
But what I am bothered by is your 1-liner reply to a carefully
thought out post. Ask yourself what contribution it made.
--mark
-
Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
My point was not to embarass you (or Steve) but to make it evident that no matter HOW careful you are or how good you are these things can still happen easily with the slightest "lowering of your guard." I could also mention that launching unhooked has happened to the likes of Larry Tudor and Dennis Pagen.
I think it has more impact when you give advice based on first hand experience of having survived the event. That's why I always preface any dicussion of launching unhooked with my own experience.
But if you truly believe that it was totally pointless for me to have mentioned it--I apologize and will buy you a beer of your choice.
marc
I think it has more impact when you give advice based on first hand experience of having survived the event. That's why I always preface any dicussion of launching unhooked with my own experience.
But if you truly believe that it was totally pointless for me to have mentioned it--I apologize and will buy you a beer of your choice.
marc
Great Googly-moo!
Hooking In
It should be initiated by the pilot. I would be embarrassed now if someone
on launch asked me if I had a hang check and the answer was no. Learn to
beat them to the question.
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: Flying Lobster [mailto:in_a_cloud@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 7:51 AM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Hooking In
But if that hang check (observed by wire crew if they happen to be there)
is always initiated and run by the pilot-in-command, then risks
are lower. Why? Because you are taking responsibility for the check,
and you also have additional pairs of eyes looking things over.
Redundancy is a good thing.
on launch asked me if I had a hang check and the answer was no. Learn to
beat them to the question.
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: Flying Lobster [mailto:in_a_cloud@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 7:51 AM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Hooking In
But if that hang check (observed by wire crew if they happen to be there)
is always initiated and run by the pilot-in-command, then risks
are lower. Why? Because you are taking responsibility for the check,
and you also have additional pairs of eyes looking things over.
Redundancy is a good thing.
I am somewhat irritated at Lobsterman myself. He believes, wrongly, that he happened upon me unhooked and about to launch. Just not correct. I was very much aware that I was unhooked. Told him so at the time. Story goes around and around and comes back to me now and then. So to Mark C's complaint that an incident is not relevant, in my case it is not even true.
But I did have an incident where I failed to hook in . At HR. Eddie Miller saved my sorry butt. Sure woke me up. Too bad Bill did not have a scare like that. I now have a nice DSL line through the tangle of alzheimers plaque. That was at least 10 years ago and there is still not a blade of grass on that neuron path. So that is not how I am going to die.
What we really have to do is to vaccinate pilots, like I have been, but without the scare. How do you do that? How do you get them to internalize a procedure so that they do it no matter what distractions are present? I don't know. But I have come to feel that the communal effort to assure that pilots are hooked can be destructive of this purpose. I never intended to advocate that wire crews should not be vigilant; just that they avoid hijacking the process.
But I did have an incident where I failed to hook in . At HR. Eddie Miller saved my sorry butt. Sure woke me up. Too bad Bill did not have a scare like that. I now have a nice DSL line through the tangle of alzheimers plaque. That was at least 10 years ago and there is still not a blade of grass on that neuron path. So that is not how I am going to die.
What we really have to do is to vaccinate pilots, like I have been, but without the scare. How do you do that? How do you get them to internalize a procedure so that they do it no matter what distractions are present? I don't know. But I have come to feel that the communal effort to assure that pilots are hooked can be destructive of this purpose. I never intended to advocate that wire crews should not be vigilant; just that they avoid hijacking the process.