I'm curious about the Pulpit (primary) LZ. I got the impression that the upper half of that LZ hasn't been used much in the past (if ever)? I know the traditional mowed strips used in the past weren't available to us this weekend.
I also got the impression that the upper half LZ gave lots of people trouble! Nothing major, but I heard about (or saw) lots of close calls with the corn, power whacks, turbo flares, parachutes, overflights of the corn into the soybeans, foot-dragging in ground effect (that was me!) and heard lots of debate about how best to approach it...along with one or two "I hate that LZ!" comments.
I learned the hard way (hence my foot dragging) the perils of a no-wind landing straight downhill. (I got into ground effect and kept going...and going...and going...and going...). On my 2nd landing, I picked the longest, flattest diagonal line across the field (from the slot in the trees on the SW side to the opposite corner) and was determined to land along that line if the wind was anything but a tailwind! That turned out to work well---no problems that time.
I was also surprised more people didn't try a downwind/uphill landing, as that LZ seemed a perfect candidate for it.
Any other experiences/comments on that LZ?
Scott
PS - I also learned that one should always land close to the southern side of the upper LZ, which is closer to cars! We wore ourselves out once hauling gliders all the way down to the road from the opposite side!
Pulpit LZ...
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
Pulpit LZ
Scott,
Don't try landing close to the break-down area unless you are really, really good-- Kevin Carter, Tom McGowan good. At a previous fly-in we had a pilot land on top of another glider by trying to be fancy and land near the break-down area.
As to the main part of the Pulpit Primary LZ, it's in bad shape this year. But it's been fine every other year and I'm sure that with crop rotation it will be okay again next year.
Regarding the back section of the Primary where most people were landing, somebody (or sombodies) was going around telling other pilots that this portion of the LZ was surprisingly flat. IT IS IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM SURPRISINGLY FLAT! It slopes downhill away from the ridge to a three foot drop-off onto a tractor road and a field of dead corn. Due to the misinformation and/or not knowing how to read an LZ or failing to walk the LZ, many pilots went on final straight down the hill because winds were blowing, for the most part, straight in. This left watchers holding thier breaths wondering if the pilots would get down before they ran out of field and hit the corn or nosed over hard into the tractor road. If the winds are parallel to the mountain, it's a very easy approach and landing. But if winds are coming straight in, perpendicular to the ridge, do not try to land straight into the wind down the hill. The best thing I've found to do is land diagonally when it's blowing straight in. Either Figure 8 or DBF so that you turn onto final at one of the back corners of the field. If winds have been sometimes coming from the North, use the SE corner. If from the South, use the NE corner. Aim to land before the center of the field, preferably within the first third. (This will also shorten your carry distance. And you should, in general, always be trying to land within the first third of a field.)
If it looks like you will make it down before the center, then make a slight bump and turn your glider 30 degrees and you'll be flaring in a 15 degree cross wind. No big deal. If you are going to over shoot the center a bit, then stay on course and just flare with the 45 degree cross. This still isn't a big deal unless winds are really crankin in the LZ. If you are going long and are too high, then you can either bump over, turn to parallel with the ridge and flare with a 90 degree cross or turn back if you are really too high and do an uphill downwind landing. If winds are coming in from a diagonal, then, of course, just set-up and do your final on the diagonal.
Any other suggestions or comments???
Matthew
Don't try landing close to the break-down area unless you are really, really good-- Kevin Carter, Tom McGowan good. At a previous fly-in we had a pilot land on top of another glider by trying to be fancy and land near the break-down area.
As to the main part of the Pulpit Primary LZ, it's in bad shape this year. But it's been fine every other year and I'm sure that with crop rotation it will be okay again next year.
Regarding the back section of the Primary where most people were landing, somebody (or sombodies) was going around telling other pilots that this portion of the LZ was surprisingly flat. IT IS IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM SURPRISINGLY FLAT! It slopes downhill away from the ridge to a three foot drop-off onto a tractor road and a field of dead corn. Due to the misinformation and/or not knowing how to read an LZ or failing to walk the LZ, many pilots went on final straight down the hill because winds were blowing, for the most part, straight in. This left watchers holding thier breaths wondering if the pilots would get down before they ran out of field and hit the corn or nosed over hard into the tractor road. If the winds are parallel to the mountain, it's a very easy approach and landing. But if winds are coming straight in, perpendicular to the ridge, do not try to land straight into the wind down the hill. The best thing I've found to do is land diagonally when it's blowing straight in. Either Figure 8 or DBF so that you turn onto final at one of the back corners of the field. If winds have been sometimes coming from the North, use the SE corner. If from the South, use the NE corner. Aim to land before the center of the field, preferably within the first third. (This will also shorten your carry distance. And you should, in general, always be trying to land within the first third of a field.)
If it looks like you will make it down before the center, then make a slight bump and turn your glider 30 degrees and you'll be flaring in a 15 degree cross wind. No big deal. If you are going to over shoot the center a bit, then stay on course and just flare with the 45 degree cross. This still isn't a big deal unless winds are really crankin in the LZ. If you are going long and are too high, then you can either bump over, turn to parallel with the ridge and flare with a 90 degree cross or turn back if you are really too high and do an uphill downwind landing. If winds are coming in from a diagonal, then, of course, just set-up and do your final on the diagonal.
Any other suggestions or comments???
Matthew
Mia Culpa
FYI-- I need to take my own advice. I almost smashed into Tad's glider at Ridgely last weekend by trying to be fancy, strafe the set-up gliders and land close to the break-down area. Won't do that again.
It's better to have a little longer carry than risk hitting someone or something.
Matthew
It's better to have a little longer carry than risk hitting someone or something.
Matthew
Good advice Matthew, thanks. I actually did walk the LZ and knew it wasn't flat, and I didn't hear anyone say it was (though someone must have).
My mistake (which I learned from!) on my first landing was assuming winds coming straight up the hill (from the west) were stronger than they were. I poorly reasoned the uphill wind would be enough to counter my downhill descent. But I failed to notice the sock was mostly limp, and landed downhill with no wind---bummer. My foot-dragging saved me, but it was a bit nerve-wracking for a few moments!
On my second landing I took the diagonal final you mentioned and that worked fine.
Scott
My mistake (which I learned from!) on my first landing was assuming winds coming straight up the hill (from the west) were stronger than they were. I poorly reasoned the uphill wind would be enough to counter my downhill descent. But I failed to notice the sock was mostly limp, and landed downhill with no wind---bummer. My foot-dragging saved me, but it was a bit nerve-wracking for a few moments!
On my second landing I took the diagonal final you mentioned and that worked fine.
Scott
-
theflyingdude
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:40 pm
- Location: Cumberland, MD
Actually Scott, when landing downhill, a stronger headwind means you will likely glide all the way to the bottom of the hill. A better choice would be crosswind/cross hill landing or uphill/downwind (depending upon how steep the slope is and how strong the wind). Also, I've been told that a drogue 'chute will permit downhill landings, at least on shallower slopes, but I have yet to try that tactic.
JR
JR
Pulpit LZ...
I think what happened was the gossip game thing where a phrase goes around
a circle and becomes unrecognizable. I know several of us commented that
when we saw the LZ it was "flatter than expected", but the comparison was
to what you see from the lower field: a very definite upslope. When asked
directly I described the field in detail with the recommended cross-slope
launch. The problem may have come from people who either overheard parts
of conversations and assumed they had the whole picture, or did not ask
someone who actually walked the field for a report.
I did hear some people advocate a downhill partially into the wind
approach. Sounded fishy to me - with falcons I advocated cross slope all
the way; didn't feel qualified to recommend an approach to double surface
gliders: I felt they were basically screwed unless they turned into final
at tree level to do a cross slope landing. That's a low turn in an active
field. Given those options I'd rather have folks make their own
decisions.
Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Scott wrote:
>
> Good advice Matthew, thanks. I actually did walk the LZ and knew it wasn't flat, and I didn't hear anyone say it was (though someone must have).
>
a circle and becomes unrecognizable. I know several of us commented that
when we saw the LZ it was "flatter than expected", but the comparison was
to what you see from the lower field: a very definite upslope. When asked
directly I described the field in detail with the recommended cross-slope
launch. The problem may have come from people who either overheard parts
of conversations and assumed they had the whole picture, or did not ask
someone who actually walked the field for a report.
I did hear some people advocate a downhill partially into the wind
approach. Sounded fishy to me - with falcons I advocated cross slope all
the way; didn't feel qualified to recommend an approach to double surface
gliders: I felt they were basically screwed unless they turned into final
at tree level to do a cross slope landing. That's a low turn in an active
field. Given those options I'd rather have folks make their own
decisions.
Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Scott wrote:
>
> Good advice Matthew, thanks. I actually did walk the LZ and knew it wasn't flat, and I didn't hear anyone say it was (though someone must have).
>
You're right JR---DOH!!!theflyingdude wrote:Actually Scott, when landing downhill, a stronger headwind means you will likely glide all the way to the bottom of the hill.
JR
I definitely should have thought of that. (In other words, I was basically "launching" on final!) That's what I'm here for---to learn!Scott
When winds are light, I select a landing direction based on terrain rather than wind direction, and always biased against downhill. I recall the only times I have ever encountered much wind in the Pulpit LZ it has been mid-day on a day with high winds at launch. I generally land perpendicular to the ridge, which provides a flat(ter) slope. I recall that winds are generally light in the Pulpit LZ in the afternoon or evening.
Regarding 'flat': flat is kinda theoretical and doesn't exist unless you are landing on waveless water or ice. Flat is a matter of scale. A 'flat' LZ probably has a good gopher hole or two lying in wait. I do not recall anyone saying that the upper LZ area was flat. I recall saying (can't remember to whom) something like ... there is a relatively flat area if you landed north/south or south/north just above the crop area. I sincerely hope that remark didn't throw anyone off.
When in doubt, walk the LZ. If you haven't walked it, then take yer wacks ... no snivelin' allowed
Regarding landing where it is 'convenient': I have gotten away with it a few times ... This mindset was a significant contributing factor to my incident at King Mountain in late August '04. Basically, I tried to land close to the cars and made a turn at <50' and didn't carry enough air speed to deal with the dust devil/wind-shift (turbulence). Since that wake-up call, I'll always be willing to hike or carry my gear as far as it takes to ensure that I have ample speed and that I am well clear of any mechanical turbulence and/or potential obstacles (i.e. treelines, powerlines, gliders, etc).
Regarding 'flat': flat is kinda theoretical and doesn't exist unless you are landing on waveless water or ice. Flat is a matter of scale. A 'flat' LZ probably has a good gopher hole or two lying in wait. I do not recall anyone saying that the upper LZ area was flat. I recall saying (can't remember to whom) something like ... there is a relatively flat area if you landed north/south or south/north just above the crop area. I sincerely hope that remark didn't throw anyone off.
When in doubt, walk the LZ. If you haven't walked it, then take yer wacks ... no snivelin' allowed
Regarding landing where it is 'convenient': I have gotten away with it a few times ... This mindset was a significant contributing factor to my incident at King Mountain in late August '04. Basically, I tried to land close to the cars and made a turn at <50' and didn't carry enough air speed to deal with the dust devil/wind-shift (turbulence). Since that wake-up call, I'll always be willing to hike or carry my gear as far as it takes to ensure that I have ample speed and that I am well clear of any mechanical turbulence and/or potential obstacles (i.e. treelines, powerlines, gliders, etc).
'Spark
-
hang_pilot
- Posts: 662
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:13 pm
- Location: Tallahassee, FL
Pulpit LZ...
I boxed the upper field, not much drift, winds seemed very light. After
some mental vacillation I chose downwind, uphill. There's a gully across
the upper portion and I managed to land on the downhill side of the
gully...Spark's gopher hole. End result was a downwind, downhill
landing. Could have crabbed to avoid it; saw it coming for a while and
didn't react. Fortunately, those little Wills Wing wheels worked fine.
Everyone I retrieved on XC landed in fields much nicer than the primary,
but isn't that usually the case?
~Daniel
-----Original Message-----
From: Vant-Hull - Brian [mailto:brianvh@umd5.umd.edu]
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:04 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Re: Pulpit LZ...
I think what happened was the gossip game thing where a phrase goes
around
a circle and becomes unrecognizable. I know several of us commented
that
when we saw the LZ it was "flatter than expected", but the comparison
was
to what you see from the lower field: a very definite upslope. When
asked
directly I described the field in detail with the recommended
cross-slope
launch. The problem may have come from people who either overheard
parts
of conversations and assumed they had the whole picture, or did not ask
someone who actually walked the field for a report.
I did hear some people advocate a downhill partially into the wind
approach. Sounded fishy to me - with falcons I advocated cross slope
all
the way; didn't feel qualified to recommend an approach to double
surface
gliders: I felt they were basically screwed unless they turned into
final
at tree level to do a cross slope landing. That's a low turn in an
active
field. Given those options I'd rather have folks make their own
decisions.
Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Scott wrote:
>
> Good advice Matthew, thanks. I actually did walk the LZ and knew it
wasn't flat, and I didn't hear anyone say it was (though someone must
have).
>
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[ST:XCL]
some mental vacillation I chose downwind, uphill. There's a gully across
the upper portion and I managed to land on the downhill side of the
gully...Spark's gopher hole. End result was a downwind, downhill
landing. Could have crabbed to avoid it; saw it coming for a while and
didn't react. Fortunately, those little Wills Wing wheels worked fine.
Everyone I retrieved on XC landed in fields much nicer than the primary,
but isn't that usually the case?
~Daniel
-----Original Message-----
From: Vant-Hull - Brian [mailto:brianvh@umd5.umd.edu]
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:04 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Re: Pulpit LZ...
I think what happened was the gossip game thing where a phrase goes
around
a circle and becomes unrecognizable. I know several of us commented
that
when we saw the LZ it was "flatter than expected", but the comparison
was
to what you see from the lower field: a very definite upslope. When
asked
directly I described the field in detail with the recommended
cross-slope
launch. The problem may have come from people who either overheard
parts
of conversations and assumed they had the whole picture, or did not ask
someone who actually walked the field for a report.
I did hear some people advocate a downhill partially into the wind
approach. Sounded fishy to me - with falcons I advocated cross slope
all
the way; didn't feel qualified to recommend an approach to double
surface
gliders: I felt they were basically screwed unless they turned into
final
at tree level to do a cross slope landing. That's a low turn in an
active
field. Given those options I'd rather have folks make their own
decisions.
Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Scott wrote:
>
> Good advice Matthew, thanks. I actually did walk the LZ and knew it
wasn't flat, and I didn't hear anyone say it was (though someone must
have).
>
LEGAL DISCLAIMER
The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
Seeing Beyond Money is a service mark of SunTrust Banks, Inc.
[ST:XCL]
Pulpit LZ...
That field across the street looks much flatter 
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew [mailto:adventuretales@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 3:11 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Pulpit LZ...
Any other suggestions or comments???
Matthew
Kev C
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew [mailto:adventuretales@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 3:11 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Pulpit LZ...
Any other suggestions or comments???
Matthew