Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Looks like it might be a flyable day at Woodstock on Saturday. April 1th.
Anybody interested?
Will continue monitoring the forecast and should know for sure by Friday evening.
Knut
Anybody interested?
Will continue monitoring the forecast and should know for sure by Friday evening.
Knut
Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Interested!
Walt Melo
walt.melo [at] gmail [dot] com
+1.804.walt.743
walt.melo [at] gmail [dot] com
+1.804.walt.743
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Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Eyeing the forecasts too!
Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Some is saying early, other noon. I'll be there around 10:00 a.m. Hopefully we'll have a great flyable day tomorrow.
Got a new instrument too, the Flytec 6030. (Dealer: John M.) Going to be fun to see how good it is. Soon old technology's, but tested out and can't go wrong.
Also, got a new pod from Colombia Let's hope we have a fantastic day tomorrow.
Knut
Got a new instrument too, the Flytec 6030. (Dealer: John M.) Going to be fun to see how good it is. Soon old technology's, but tested out and can't go wrong.
Also, got a new pod from Colombia Let's hope we have a fantastic day tomorrow.
Knut
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Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Scarry good today. Will explain tomorrow with more images and the flight track but have home responsibilities now.
Ward
Ward
Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Yikes! Looks like the Falcon I would have been on today would not have cut the mustard/wave
Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Did not fly and made that decision after Ward landed, calling John M, Walt and me. John D. flew too.
Nevertheless, nice day to be at the mountain.
Knut
Nevertheless, nice day to be at the mountain.
Knut
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Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Yesterdays flight can be parsed into four events: 1) the flight up to Signal Knob, 2) trying to out run cloud development (images 1-5), 3) searching for the ground (images 6-10), and 4) landing in Fort Valley after not being able to fly upwind to the main Woodstock ridge (images 11-15).
When Juan Sonen and I arrived at launch (~9am), there was already a prominent wave/roll cloud out in front of the ridge (over rt 81) that looked as if it extended the entire length of the valley and then some. Above us, there were also suggestions of wave but not as impressive as the roll cloud over 81. I was first off with a plan to fly north to the end of the Massanutten and then return back to launch where John Durrance would be waiting and the two of us would head south to the end of the Massanutten ridge and beyond. While the flight up to Signal Knob was uneventful, the trip back was surreal.
As I approach Signal Knob, I could see that the cloud shadow surrounding the north end was expanding and the upwind rt 81 roll cloud was also now scary impressive. Just after rounding the north end of the radio tower, the turbulence ramped up significantly as did the lift (the transition from an otherwise smooth flight is indicated in the flight track by line kinks). My plan A was now trashed for what can only be described as a survival mode. I focused on trying to out-fly the expanding cloud on its upwind side and as I flew farther away from the ridge, the stronger the lift became (images 1 and 2). As shown in the next three scary images, I lost that race. The cloud basically blew past me from beneath, the flanks and above. During my desperate beeline, the vario was indicating that I had entered into what was most likely the wave updraft as now quick glances at the vario showed climb rates in excess of 600 fpm. Once in the cloud, the turbulence increased including unintended significant turns while my vario was consistently suggesting that I was going up and fast (I now had no clue which direction I was headed in). At one point the flight track shows a climb rate of over a 1,000 fpm. The lift took me first to the top of the cloud and then higher (images 6 – 10).
This part of the flight was amazingly surreal. Transitioning from turbulent darkness into an arena of brilliant blue sky and bright cloud tops while flying through smooth lift was an event that will not be forgotten. After a couple of seconds of sightseeing, I realized that I had lost visual with earth that was now over a mile below. I flew towards the first break in the clouds that I found (image 11 plus the image posted earlier) and found significant sink. Within seconds, I had visual on the Woodstock ridge and the meandering Shenandoah River out in front (very happy). I was only ~ a half mile down wind of the ridge and being above 5K msl, I decided to go back to plan A and fly back to launch via the same ridge that I flew north on. However, although I had the bar stuffed headed toward the ridge I burned up several thousand ft of altitude and I never made it to even its leeside (image 12). The down draft and accompanying turbulence put me back in survival mode. During this “welcome back to reality” event, had the impression that my ground speed was near zero while I watched the WS ridge grow in size and the river rapidly disappear in front of it.
The last three views show my searching for a Fort Valley LZ, setting up my final approach downwind of Benjamin Berks’ farm and getting rocked on final. I landed just short of Passage Creek that passes through the west end of Benjamin’s field.
Juan, thanks for the retrieval!
Ward
Flight track (best viewed with Chrome): http://doarama.com/view/1273244
When Juan Sonen and I arrived at launch (~9am), there was already a prominent wave/roll cloud out in front of the ridge (over rt 81) that looked as if it extended the entire length of the valley and then some. Above us, there were also suggestions of wave but not as impressive as the roll cloud over 81. I was first off with a plan to fly north to the end of the Massanutten and then return back to launch where John Durrance would be waiting and the two of us would head south to the end of the Massanutten ridge and beyond. While the flight up to Signal Knob was uneventful, the trip back was surreal.
As I approach Signal Knob, I could see that the cloud shadow surrounding the north end was expanding and the upwind rt 81 roll cloud was also now scary impressive. Just after rounding the north end of the radio tower, the turbulence ramped up significantly as did the lift (the transition from an otherwise smooth flight is indicated in the flight track by line kinks). My plan A was now trashed for what can only be described as a survival mode. I focused on trying to out-fly the expanding cloud on its upwind side and as I flew farther away from the ridge, the stronger the lift became (images 1 and 2). As shown in the next three scary images, I lost that race. The cloud basically blew past me from beneath, the flanks and above. During my desperate beeline, the vario was indicating that I had entered into what was most likely the wave updraft as now quick glances at the vario showed climb rates in excess of 600 fpm. Once in the cloud, the turbulence increased including unintended significant turns while my vario was consistently suggesting that I was going up and fast (I now had no clue which direction I was headed in). At one point the flight track shows a climb rate of over a 1,000 fpm. The lift took me first to the top of the cloud and then higher (images 6 – 10).
This part of the flight was amazingly surreal. Transitioning from turbulent darkness into an arena of brilliant blue sky and bright cloud tops while flying through smooth lift was an event that will not be forgotten. After a couple of seconds of sightseeing, I realized that I had lost visual with earth that was now over a mile below. I flew towards the first break in the clouds that I found (image 11 plus the image posted earlier) and found significant sink. Within seconds, I had visual on the Woodstock ridge and the meandering Shenandoah River out in front (very happy). I was only ~ a half mile down wind of the ridge and being above 5K msl, I decided to go back to plan A and fly back to launch via the same ridge that I flew north on. However, although I had the bar stuffed headed toward the ridge I burned up several thousand ft of altitude and I never made it to even its leeside (image 12). The down draft and accompanying turbulence put me back in survival mode. During this “welcome back to reality” event, had the impression that my ground speed was near zero while I watched the WS ridge grow in size and the river rapidly disappear in front of it.
The last three views show my searching for a Fort Valley LZ, setting up my final approach downwind of Benjamin Berks’ farm and getting rocked on final. I landed just short of Passage Creek that passes through the west end of Benjamin’s field.
Juan, thanks for the retrieval!
Ward
Flight track (best viewed with Chrome): http://doarama.com/view/1273244
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Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Whoa, that was quite the flight indeed! I had a totally benign wave experience a few months back... But there's obviously a flip side, and wave can get really nasty, sorry that was the case yesterday Ward. Sounds like you handled a difficult situation very well, very glad that you found an escape route into Fort Valley.
Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Ward thanks for the writeup and the pics especially. From your observations it looks like you were hit by a rolling wave, with the associated turbulence of the rolling tumbleweed of air below the wave crest. You made it thru the rolling tumbleweed and contacted the smooth portion of the front side of the wave, but a trip to the "white room" was unescapable. That cloud was scary! I can't imagine seeing that coming your way and really having no escape from it. Kinda reminds of the movie "The Poseidon Adventure" when Leslie Nielsen looks out at the ocean with his binoculars and spots a huge rogue wave heading straight for the ship. Glad you made it down to the ground safely w/o getting tumbled! Wave has broken many a sailplane in two in the past. Bacil
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Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Ward,
Thanks for sharing your story. The turbulence associated with wave rotor can be harrowing but coupled with the white-out makes for an impressive experience that I'm sure you'll hope not to repeat. I can recount times getting beat up in rotor in my sailplane thankful that I wasn't getting beat up in a hang glider.
Bacil,
To my knowledge wave turbulence has not broken numerous sailplanes in two. But if these events have occurred, please let me know about them, I'm curious to know more. What I do know that what has happened to break sailplanes in wave (and other) conditions is to exceed Vne usually by being forced to enter cloud after being caught over the top. Without visual reference to some horizon, maintaining pitch and roll start becoming very difficult with standard VFR instruments. (In the UK when cloud flying is allowed, many pilots fly with attitude indicators. That leads to other issues though like in-cloud mid-airs.) Coupled with high altitude, where Vne speeds drop, sailplanes have broken in flight but again to my knowledge this is a factor of exceeding Vne not the turbulence itself.
Got to 9.5K MSL yesterday in some unexpected wave after taking a very well formed and pleasant thermal from about 3.5KMSL up to about 7KMSL. When thermaling up to wave, I've found the thermal will maintain constant (or near constant) lift rather that get weaker getting closer to cloud base. The wave was pleasant and I was able to penetrate a couple of bars forward. There was little cloud to speak of although the fast cycling CU showed the typical shear off the top (cloud tops were about 8K MSL but sparse.) Winds at altitude were a manageable 30 knots.
Danny Brotto
Thanks for sharing your story. The turbulence associated with wave rotor can be harrowing but coupled with the white-out makes for an impressive experience that I'm sure you'll hope not to repeat. I can recount times getting beat up in rotor in my sailplane thankful that I wasn't getting beat up in a hang glider.
Bacil,
To my knowledge wave turbulence has not broken numerous sailplanes in two. But if these events have occurred, please let me know about them, I'm curious to know more. What I do know that what has happened to break sailplanes in wave (and other) conditions is to exceed Vne usually by being forced to enter cloud after being caught over the top. Without visual reference to some horizon, maintaining pitch and roll start becoming very difficult with standard VFR instruments. (In the UK when cloud flying is allowed, many pilots fly with attitude indicators. That leads to other issues though like in-cloud mid-airs.) Coupled with high altitude, where Vne speeds drop, sailplanes have broken in flight but again to my knowledge this is a factor of exceeding Vne not the turbulence itself.
Got to 9.5K MSL yesterday in some unexpected wave after taking a very well formed and pleasant thermal from about 3.5KMSL up to about 7KMSL. When thermaling up to wave, I've found the thermal will maintain constant (or near constant) lift rather that get weaker getting closer to cloud base. The wave was pleasant and I was able to penetrate a couple of bars forward. There was little cloud to speak of although the fast cycling CU showed the typical shear off the top (cloud tops were about 8K MSL but sparse.) Winds at altitude were a manageable 30 knots.
Danny Brotto
Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Maybe so Danny, but check this link out. If the turbulence can damage a B-52s vertical stabilizer and rip a DC-8s engine off, then maybe some sailplane breakups blamed on exceeding Vne might be due to turbulence stress. https://www.weather.gov/media/publicati ... -front.pdf . Bottom line: flyer beware. Bacil
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Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Oh heck yeah. There have been numerous instances of airplanes being damaged in flight due to effects of Mountain Waves. You get training and are asked those wave turbulence questions on any general aviation FAA written test I've ever taken.
This is an interesting presentation about various forms of turbulences and actually MWT is not high on the list:
https://www.ral.ucar.edu/general/Turbul ... idents.pdf
That B-52 was actually purposely being flown in turbulence as part of a structural study. Guess they got their data. That DC-8 encounter was documented to have been associated with a dip in the jet stream with the aircraft being subjected shear as a result (of a lot of things going on.) Still MWT does account for aircraft structural damage and control issue and that's why even entry level private pilot training does not gloss over the topic.
Ward's experience was tremendously significant and his situation while harrowing in hang glider, would likely not have been not too disconcerting in a sailplane. With rapidly changing moisture and significant under cast when flying over-the-top, I limit my altitude to insure being able to get under the deck quickly in case things close up. With a 42:1 glide at 55 Kts, 10:1 at 130 Knots, full spoiler 10:1 at 55 Kts, and moving map instruments to provide a clue where north is and where I'm at when I can't see the ground, flying in the east coast wave is generally comfortable and mostly predictable. While I've only been in wave conditions a handful of times in the HG, it was nothing like Ward encountered especially with strong turbulence and the quickly cycling cloud. I think from the description, the situation was handled as perfectly as possible. In hindsight it would be interesting to get a synopsis of what Ward might do differently in the future given the similar circumstance. What a great learning opportunity.
"Flyer beware"... roger that. I know of more HG structural failures happening as a result of thermal conditions than sailplanes in wave conditions; been there, threw my chute. I say if you could see the air, no one would fly... and yet we still do .
Danny Brotto
This is an interesting presentation about various forms of turbulences and actually MWT is not high on the list:
https://www.ral.ucar.edu/general/Turbul ... idents.pdf
That B-52 was actually purposely being flown in turbulence as part of a structural study. Guess they got their data. That DC-8 encounter was documented to have been associated with a dip in the jet stream with the aircraft being subjected shear as a result (of a lot of things going on.) Still MWT does account for aircraft structural damage and control issue and that's why even entry level private pilot training does not gloss over the topic.
Ward's experience was tremendously significant and his situation while harrowing in hang glider, would likely not have been not too disconcerting in a sailplane. With rapidly changing moisture and significant under cast when flying over-the-top, I limit my altitude to insure being able to get under the deck quickly in case things close up. With a 42:1 glide at 55 Kts, 10:1 at 130 Knots, full spoiler 10:1 at 55 Kts, and moving map instruments to provide a clue where north is and where I'm at when I can't see the ground, flying in the east coast wave is generally comfortable and mostly predictable. While I've only been in wave conditions a handful of times in the HG, it was nothing like Ward encountered especially with strong turbulence and the quickly cycling cloud. I think from the description, the situation was handled as perfectly as possible. In hindsight it would be interesting to get a synopsis of what Ward might do differently in the future given the similar circumstance. What a great learning opportunity.
"Flyer beware"... roger that. I know of more HG structural failures happening as a result of thermal conditions than sailplanes in wave conditions; been there, threw my chute. I say if you could see the air, no one would fly... and yet we still do .
Danny Brotto
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Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Danny, the flight definitely left me with a greater respect for the dynamic growth of wave associated clouds. What really impressed/surprised was just how fast the expanding cloud over took me. My wingtip cameras each capture an image every 30 seconds and the attached are consecutive views of its expansion.
If I had a do over? I would have spent more time comparing cloud shadows out in front of my flight path. The shadow cast by the north end cloud was significantly larger and stationary relative to those passing over the ridge just north of takeoff. In the future, seeing this difference will hopefully trigger memories.
Ward
If I had a do over? I would have spent more time comparing cloud shadows out in front of my flight path. The shadow cast by the north end cloud was significantly larger and stationary relative to those passing over the ridge just north of takeoff. In the future, seeing this difference will hopefully trigger memories.
Ward
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Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
What great photos. That second one shows a classic wave entry pattern. The CU will have a shallow horseshoe shape; a "U" kind of looking like a cup for the wind. Your right wheel is right on the leading edge bottom of that shape. Typically a strong thermal will be found feeding that cloud forming a concave shape right under it. In a sailplane, you can use that strong thermal to get to CB then fly upwind at a brisk pace, pull up in front of that "horseshoe" out of the convective layer and into the laminar, smooth, wave. You then figure 8 your way in front of the cloud and into wave. If it does not work, fly upwind into the blue, drop down below cloud, and try it again. Eventually you'll stick. Sometimes flying out into the blue is where you'll pick up the wave.
But like I mention previously, the performance of the sailplane provides a comfortable margin to do what I describe above and to scoot around and avoid cloud if need be. And if you are over the top an option is to turn downwind. That 42:1 glide at 55 knots turns into 75:1 over the ground with a 30 knot tailwind. In the HG, the margins are way reduced. And on a high moisture day, getting caught over the top is a real problem.
How high were you and what was the wind at your altitudes. From the photos it does not look like you were very high.
I had hoped to fly the Mighty 150 on Saturday but it was marginal VFR (MVFR) for most of the day over a large area due to low ceilings. Never did clear up at Fairfield until night.
This Saturday, especially earlier, looks very promising with wind and direction for wave with a lot less moisture than this past Saturday and drying out as the day goes on. Friday will be the strong NW, high moisture/cloud day. Might have to exercise the O2 system on Saturday...too far out for the Skew-T's that will provide insight though.
Danny Brotto
PS: Sunday is the day the we'll all miss without Highland; god I miss that place. Feeling nostalgic. I've flown out to Ridgley a number of times over the past year. They have a snazzy, beautiful, new, paved runway... but not much else going on. We had a good thing there for many years.
But like I mention previously, the performance of the sailplane provides a comfortable margin to do what I describe above and to scoot around and avoid cloud if need be. And if you are over the top an option is to turn downwind. That 42:1 glide at 55 knots turns into 75:1 over the ground with a 30 knot tailwind. In the HG, the margins are way reduced. And on a high moisture day, getting caught over the top is a real problem.
How high were you and what was the wind at your altitudes. From the photos it does not look like you were very high.
I had hoped to fly the Mighty 150 on Saturday but it was marginal VFR (MVFR) for most of the day over a large area due to low ceilings. Never did clear up at Fairfield until night.
This Saturday, especially earlier, looks very promising with wind and direction for wave with a lot less moisture than this past Saturday and drying out as the day goes on. Friday will be the strong NW, high moisture/cloud day. Might have to exercise the O2 system on Saturday...too far out for the Skew-T's that will provide insight though.
Danny Brotto
PS: Sunday is the day the we'll all miss without Highland; god I miss that place. Feeling nostalgic. I've flown out to Ridgley a number of times over the past year. They have a snazzy, beautiful, new, paved runway... but not much else going on. We had a good thing there for many years.
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Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Based on the flight track, I was somewhere between 3.5 and 4.0 K msl (most likely closer to 4 K) and the wind direction and speed, ~WNW @ 25 mph.
I also deeply miss Highland!
Ward
I also deeply miss Highland!
Ward
Re: Woodstock, Saturday, April 1th
Ward, Thank you for your post and picture of your Woodstock wave flight. Very glad you were able to make it thru the flight and safely land. Can't imagine how I would have handled the situation in my falcon. Probably would not have had a safe landing.
Joe
Joe