Ficher Road Tuesday

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:37 am

Went to Ficher to toss Tim Harlinger off into some wonder winds. Got some thermalling and wonderwinds in myself out of the deal. Winds were light from early to mid day, 0-5 at best, straight in. Mid day was easy climbs in strictly thermal conditions. Late day went magic.

We stopped in on our LZ roadshow and talked with the "Do not land here" landowners. They were very freindly and we still can't land there (they have horses that spook). They asked that the club remove the stairs and sign for them. Since Tim is a contractor, we had tons of tools on hand and easily took both down.

The entrance to the primary is locked with a cable fence. Steve Kinsley has talked with the new landowner and we can still fly but it's currently a long hikeout as we do not have keys. Someone might consider asking if they run into him sometime (he wasn't there yesterday).

Jim

Post by **Matthew** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:30 am

So I assume that you have a 2005 Pulpit Sticker, that the guy you threw off bought a sticker as well and that you are an Observer. Fisher Road requires a Pulpit Sticker-- the two clubs pay site insurance for Pulpit, Bill's and Fisher Road through the Pulpit Fund which is paid for by Pulpit Stickers. The cost is only 15 dollars for non-members. Fisher Road is also a Hang 2 with Observer site. This info is in the site guide.

Matthew

Post by **hepcat1989** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:04 am

Matthew, you KILLJOY! poor form, BOOOOO! HISSSSSSSS!! -- Flying tomatoe......flying cabbage..... flying lettace. Booo!-- flying paper cup.... Come on now, Jim did some leg work............( no smiley) Shawn.

Post by **brianvh** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:11 am

Cool! I was hoping you tow-park boys would get out on your days off! I
know Adam keeps pining for Jack's....

Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149

Post by **brianvh** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:43 am

Highland Aerosports holds a current flying membership through MHGA, and may have membership in CHGPA as well. They've done this for years as a goodwill gesture despite almost never having a chance to fly our sites. Putting this all together I'd consider Jim Rooney well covered as a staff member of Highland Aerosports. If taking students to the mountain sites becomes more common (and I hope it will) then individual memberships may be in order, but the occasional use of the sites I think is well justified with no further purchase of memberships by Highland staff.

Jim's an instructor, and his post shows definite familiarity with Fisher road. I see no reason to worry about observer status.

The student of course should purchase a sticker. Given some past history with retroactive business which I'm sure certain people will remember promoting, I think retroactive payment of fees is cool (though not to be encouraged).

Details like this are officially a joint board issue, but I just wanted to post that in my opinion I think Jim was doing things right, he did some extra work for the site, and given his overall approach I have to assume he dealt with the waivers. I applaud any instructor who takes the extra time to guide a student through a new site.

Post by **Matthew** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:53 am

Hey,

THe Highland Boys are always giving me grief.... Matthew, don't leave your glider there! Don't carry your glider here. Don't land there. It sometimes seems as though they make up new rules just for me :)

What???? I can't remind them of some of our protocols????

Matthew

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:52 pm

Uh... I'm a footlaunch instructor. Why do I need to be an observer?
Just no pleasing some people I guess.

Jim

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:56 pm

Oh, btw... I'd love to get Tim hooked up with some of the club Observers. If you haven't met him down at Highland yet, he's a really great guy and very passionate about flying. He's not the most internet savvy person, but I'm working with him on that too. I think it would be great if someone more local could help him out.

Jim

Richard Hays · Post by **Richard Hays** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:18 pm

You don't have to be an Observer if you are an Advanced Rated instructor.
And any Advanced instructor should be FL instruction savvy and current if
they are instructing FL at mountain launches.

But if you are a basic-Basic instructors by design don't deal with mountain
training and ratings above H-2. That is what the Advanced designation is
for. Any students flying the moutain sites should have their H-2 rating
with previous FL endorsement and be with the appropriate Advanced USHGA
instructor or Observer familiar with that site.

All H-2's with FL special skills sign-off should also be studying hard on
the H-3 material, since they are technically flying in that realm. It is
also advisable that they have at least passed the H-3 written test so that
they at least know theory regarding the higher altitudes, micrometeorology,
meteorology, right of way rules, approaches into restricted LZ's and so on.

If anyone would like to discuss this further-please feel free to contact me
personally: 410-527-0975

Rich Hays

>From: "jimrooney" <jimrooney@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Ficher Road Tuesday
>Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:52:17 -0400
>
>Uh... I'm a footlaunch instructor. Why do I need to be an observer?
>Just no pleasing some people I guess.
>
>Jim

Post by **hang_pilot** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:30 pm

I have sent Jim, off-list, an updated copy of the H2/P2 guide with
observer contact information. If anyone else would like a copy, please
e-mail me directly at president@chgpa.org.

Best,
Daniel

-----Original Message-----
From: jimrooney [mailto:jimrooney@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:56 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Ficher Road Tuesday

Oh, btw... I'd love to get Tim hooked up with some of the club
Observers. If you haven't met him down at Highland yet, he's a really
great guy and very passionate about flying. He's not the most internet
savvy person, but I'm working with him on that too. I think it would be
great if someone more local could help him out.

Jim

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Post by **Matthew** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:04 pm

I'm very easy to please. If you fly our sites, then you should follow the site protocols and pay the appropriate flying permit fees. If you are a local and you fly regularly, then you should also join the club and pay your dues. If you actaully care about keeping our flying sites for years to come, then you should help out at clean-ups, volunteer for fly-ins and other events and/or help out with running the club.

There are about 150 people on this forum and only half of them are club members. That's a pretty sad statistic given that most people on the forum are local pilots. And club membership with a Pulpit Sticker is only 40 bucks per year-- the cost of two aerotows.

Matthew
VP/Director-at-Large
CHGPA

Post by **brianvh** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:26 pm

Matthew's most endearing quality is his refusal to be beaten down if he
feels he's doing the right thing. We definitely need folks who jealously
guard the club's interest. It's also useful to have other folks soften it
a bit. It all balances out.

Hope to meet up with Tim soon. Maybe it's a good thing he's not internet
savvy?

Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149

Post by **Matthew** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:12 pm

I've talked to Tim. I'm pretty sure that he's paid his club membership with Pulpit Sticker. That's why I started the message out "I assume...." The message, if you read between the lines, was directed at all of the people on the list who are not members and who may not have the proper quailfications to fly Fisher Road. We don't want people reading the list and thinking it's okay to just go fly our sites without the proper rating, an Observer if needed, without following the site protocols and without coughing up the "OH MY GOD" 15 bucks for Pulpit Sticker or 40 bucks for a CHGPA Membership with Pulpit Sticker.

I guess I'm just to subtle sometimes :)

Matthew

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:44 pm

This isn't the first time I've been called "not a member".
Highland covers my dues. Highland has paid dues for the past seven years.

With respect to site protocol, the site is listed as USHGA membership and H2 with Observer/Instructor and no waiver. Maybe I've got my info wrong. If so, I can certainly own up to that.

As far as Basic/Advanced instructor goes. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but show me, don't tell me... USHGA does not dictate to clubs site ratings. There are H2 (no observer/instructor) mountain launches (I started on one). Instructor ratings are what you can teach and sign off. Observer ratings are what you can sign off (not teach). Requiring them at a mountain site is protocol set by the club (not USHGA) and is intended to keep people safe.

That said, these are our sites and I have no problem with playing by the rules. (If I didn't, why would I post to this group?). Flying sites are always on tenuous ground so we're all naturally very protective of them.

In the end, you've got a professional pilot on your hands here. I'm trying to help out... it's what I do. We can either talk about how we can't do things, or we can figure out a way in which we can do things. I'd rather talk about what and how we can do things.

Anyway,
I'll be gone for the next eight months... plenty of time to figure things out eh?
Jim

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:50 pm

>I guess I'm just to subtle sometimes :)

Hahahaha.... yeah, and I miss subtle all the time... A two by four upside the head generally works better for me as I miss "hints" all the time.

I hear ya on the dues/no dues thing. $40 for a years worth of sticker... sheesh... ya pay more in gas to get there just for one DAY.

Jim

stevek · Post by **stevek** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:48 pm

Hey Jim: Thanks for checking in at the old LZ to see if the folks there had changed their minds. Too bad.

Richard Hays · Post by **Richard Hays** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:31 am

Couple of things-and please feel free to contact me personally regarding
this matter. Admittedly I do not know either one of you guys, so I'm
assuming some things that maybe I shouldn't be. And I apologize in advance
if I'm barking up the wrong tree at someone or something. That said,
understand that my comments are meant to advise on proper protocol regarding
instruction in the mountains.

Mountain sites are not the place to be instructing folks on FL if the H-2
only has a tow rating. Its dangerous, and not how it was meant to be set up
when restrictions were relaxed several years ago ( more on this later ).

H-2's wishing to launch from the mountain sites should already have their (
FL ) sign offs from instructors versed and current in ( FL ). The wanna-be
mountain H-2 should have spent numerous days at various training hills in a
variety of conditions perfecting running launch skills before they should
even contemplate foot launching from a slot like Jacks, Bills, Woodstock
or cliff launching.

* This training hill scenario is where the H-1 and H-2 ( FL ) skills are
taught by Basic or Advanced Instructors. Reviewing the flight requirements
for a H-2 sign off support this. Once the H-2 has their FL sign off, they
can go to the various local club managed sites after having made
arrangements with their local Observer or Advanced Instructor familiar with
the sites to be flown.

Concessions were made about 10+ years ago by the clubs to allow H-2's to fly
from them with an Observer or Instructor ( prior to the advent of aerotowing
). At the time, this meant that any H-2 had spent all of his instruction
foot launching to build up to the mountain solo event. Prior to that, sites
such as High Rock, Hyner View, Pulpit and others' were strictly H-3 sites.
The rules were relaxed somewhat to help accommadate H-2's in their quest to
become self sufficient. For the most part, the new protocol has worked ok
with few mishaps.

Additionally; the intent of the Advanced rated instructor certification is
to train qualifying pilots more advanced flying to get their H-3 or higher
ratings. The Advanced Instructor rating assures that the instructor in
question has extensive experience launching from and flying from altitudes.
The original intent of this designation assumed that this time acrued was
from a variety of mountain launches. Long before there were two distinct
styles of training.

*Any qualifying H-2 flying from a mountain site is essentially in training
for a H-3 rating. Basic instructors cannot issue H-3 ratings or certain
special skills sign offs.

The ( local ) modification of allowing Observers to mentor H-2's in their
quest for their H-3 rating is, as previously mentioned, something the MHGA
and CHGA agreed to, to help advance the new pilot to their intermediate
rating in the absence of a qualified instructor. Observers appointed have
always been H-3 or higher and very savvy regarding certain sites and or have
the ability to communicate well and be available for the H-. Some Observers
do this extremely well. Some don't.

But any H-2 they were working with came with a hearty endorsement from their
FL instructor, log book and appropriate skills that prepared them for the
mountain FL experience. And the Observers...although not instructors per
say, are pretty damn good at knowing their mountain sites, conditions, LZ's
and the specific do's and don'ts. The system has flaws, but it works so long
as specific skills are previously achieved by the H-2 and appropriate
conditions and sites are chosen for the first mountain flights.

* I'm sure you'd agree that as an example, that a FL instructor would have
no business attempting to train aerotowing unless they were higly qualified
to do so. Each style has its' own unique do's and don'ts and methods.
Training in mountains is the same deal. It is extremely specialized as is
aerowtowing in its' own right.

So....all this long winded hooo haaa aside, just make sure that any H-2
wishing to fly in the mountains has their FL sign off and make sure that
anyone acting as Instructor or Observer is qualified to do so. Failure in
this aspect could lead to an accident which nobody wants to see happen.

Please feel free to cal me to disucss this matter further. 410-527-0975

Richard Hays
Region 9 Examiner
Advanced Instructor
410-527-0975

>From: "jimrooney" <jimrooney@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Ficher Road Tuesday
>Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:44:12 -0400
>
>This isn't the first time I've been called "not a member".
>Highland covers my dues. Highland has paid dues for the past seven years.
>
>With respect to site protocol, the site is listed as USHGA membership and
>H2 with Observer/Instructor and no waiver. Maybe I've got my info wrong. If
>so, I can certainly own up to that.
>
>As far as Basic/Advanced instructor goes. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but
>show me, don't tell me... USHGA does not dictate to clubs site ratings.
>There are H2 (no observer/instructor) mountain launches (I started on one).
>Instructor ratings are what you can teach and sign off. Observer ratings
>are what you can sign off (not teach). Requiring them at a mountain site is
>protocol set by the club (not USHGA) and is intended to keep people safe.
>
>That said, these are our sites and I have no problem with playing by the
>rules. (If I didn't, why would I post to this group?). Flying sites are
>always on tenuous ground so we're all naturally very protective of them.
>
>In the end, you've got a professional pilot on your hands here. I'm trying
>to help out... it's what I do. We can either talk about how we can't do
>things, or we can figure out a way in which we can do things. I'd rather
>talk about what and how we can do things.
>
>Anyway,
>I'll be gone for the next eight months... plenty of time to figure things
>out eh?
>Jim

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:13 am

I couldn't agree more.

Tim's not the usual H2 neophite. I think that's where the breakdown in communicationg might be here. I wasn't teaching him anything, just making sure he was safe (the same thing observers do). I wouldn't presume to teach H3 skills, just as an observer can't (they can only sign them off). The guy is FL qualified, tow qualified and I fly with him all the time. I don't know anyone that knows his flying skills better than me Sunny and Adam, of which I'm the only current mountain pilot. He has his own training hills, which is why most of the club hasn't seen him, and he flies them almost daily. (sorry, the local cops will only let him fly there).

I think we might all be on the same page here and just not know each other well enough to know it.
Jim

Post by **hepcat1989** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:19 am

Thanks Richard, good write up! I think it is helpful if the observer has seen you fly the training hills, to see what you're about.As opposed to calling an observer than has seen nothing of you. Shawn.

Richard Hays · Post by **Richard Hays** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:31 am

Are we talking about Tim Hurrlinger?

>From: "jimrooney" <jimrooney@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Ficher Road Tuesday
>Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:13:11 -0400
>
>I couldn't agree more.
>
>Tim's not the usual H2 neophite. I think that's where the breakdown in
>communicationg might be here. I wasn't teaching him anything, just making
>sure he was safe (the same thing observers do). I wouldn't presume to teach
>H3 skills, just as an observer can't (they can only sign them off). The guy
>is FL qualified, tow qualified and I fly with him all the time. I don't
>know anyone that knows his flying skills better than me Sunny and Adam, of
>which I'm the only current mountain pilot. He has his own training hills,
>which is why most of the club hasn't seen him, and he flies them almost
>daily. (sorry, the local cops will only let him fly there).
>
>I think we might all be on the same page here and just not know each other
>well enough to know it.
>Jim

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:28 am

I've talked to Richard offline and posted everything to a new thread so that the (quite pleasant) outcome will be the first thing people read.

Jim

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