Flying Sun10July?

[krryerson]

Saturday at the Pulpit from the gravel pad mentioned that the first three of them were very SKETCHY. Like, just a few feet above the rocks sketchy.

Absolutely!
Always trying to be very aggressive when launching and seems like there is plenty of airspeed, which can be seen in the video; but, sometime "dives" too much. Agree, do not like to fly a few feet above the rocks too and approached Eric about that after the flight, getting his input.
Prior to launch, was told we could not start higher up on the gravel, due to the ramp might cause some turbulence from west.
In aftermath, on a day like Saturday, all of us probably should have used the beautiful "New" ramp, which to the best of my knowledge, they all did after we launched.
Conclusion, will use the ramp in the future on most days, special on days and conditions we had on Saturday.
Tim, talk to Eric and get some feedback too.
Knut

[Ward Odenwald]

Good day at the Pulpit. As Bacil and Mark already posted, many pilots and all soared! Pretty much stuck to the ridges during my flight with the Sport2. After launching from the new/north ramp, I flew ~8 miles up to almost the north end of the ridgeline and then back down ~11 miles to Cito (a small town a couple of miles south of where 16 passes over the ridge). From there, I rode a thermal back to the Cove mountain ridge and followed its ridgeline south for another 4 miles. Flight time was almost 1.5 hrs. Here’s my flight track:

http://doarama.com/view/836671

Thanks for the retrieve Blaine!

Ward

[krryerson]

Ward,
Thanks for posting your flight. Love the Doarama.
Knut

[markc]

I saw Bacil's launch on Sunday and completely agree that it was perfect, no concerns at all. Up and away, no worries about proximity to boulders/terrain.

And I should have made it clear that I'm simply relaying one pilot's impressions of the Saturday launches : It's not like there's video from the slot/pad that we can review. I guess the concern was that there were successive launches that he felt were "sketchy" on Sat (however that might be defined).

Regarding my own sketchy launch on Sunday from the new ramp: I'm damn glad it happened there, as opposed to the slot/pad. I still have to talk with Ward/Tim(Blaine?) to see if it was bad as it felt, but if I'd screwed up similarly from the pad? Hmmm. Not sure the outcome would have been good.

Given that I don't have a lot of experience launching from the pad on a (frequently) N-cross day... And given that I'd seen only that one solid-west period just prior to launching... I probably should have stuck with my original plan and launched from the old ramp. OR: Stuck it out on the new ramp until I saw the same conditions that tempted me up there in the first place.

Sometimes, having multiple launch options seems to make things harder, not easier.

MarkC

[XCanytime]

Saturday at the Pulpit from the gravel pad mentioned that the first three of them were very SKETCHY. Like, just a few feet above the rocks sketchy.

Conclusion, will use the ramp in the future on most days, special on days and conditions we had on Saturday.

I was talking with Charley Fager about this tonight on the phone, and he brought up something that I did not think about. He mentioned that ground effect is more prevalent when launching from the pad versus the ramp. And in my previous post I mentioned that I had the same thing happen to me (sink/dive just above the bushes/rocks) when I launched from the old ramp (before the pad even existed). So in my opinion there is no guarantee that launching from the ramp is any better than launching from the pad in moderate to strong conditions. In fact, as Charley pointed out, which would you rather do, dive into the bushes/rocks from 20 feet up (launching from a ramp) or from 5 feet up (launching from the pad)? Of course if conditions are light, the ramps are the expected launch points. But when conditions are moderate to strong, the pad is usually the launch choice, but some use the ramps. It really comes down to launch timing, whether you are on the pad or on the ramp. We cannot see the air beyond the wind indicators, so we need to observe and see how long the cycles are and launch at a time where the cycle lasts long enough after we commit to get us flying fast and out away from the mountain with plenty of clearance before any "hole" can get in our way. Bacil

[markc]

I've only launched from the slot/pad at the Pulpit perhaps four times, so I'm very far from an expert.

I *have* launched from both ramps many times. As many of us have.

I've had zero scary-ish launches from the pad. But then, a (personal) sample size of four isn't exactly meaningful

I've had a handful of scary-ish launches from the ramps over the past 20 years. Including Sunday (pending wirecrew debrief; maybe it wasn't as bad as it seemed? wishing/hoping).

Would I say that one vs. the other is "better"? I don't think I have the numbers/stats to make that conclusion yet.

However....

Assuming that a given launch is LESS than perfect: Do you want 5 feet above the terrain? Or do you want 20 feet above the terrain?

I'm not suggesting that 20 feet is some magic get-out-of-tree-free pass. There's no "guarantee" about anything flight-related, we all know that.

But I AM saying that my pop from the right on the new ramp would very likely have been much more "interesting" from the slot. Maybe I would have pulled it off... Or maybe I wouldn't? Hard to say.

If you are an expert at launching from the slot/pad on a cross day : Great, use your skills and go for it!

But if you are less than expert : Evaluate conditions carefully.

[Blaine]

My launch was the one from the pad and it was terrible to say the least. I have a tendency to drop my left wing a bit during launch and I believe it has something to do with how/when I transition my grip. After talking to Mark and John this is what I think happened. When I was transitioning my grip I was hit with more of a cross wind as I came out of the shadow of the ramp and I wasn't able to correct as fast as needed. Maybe I should have been a few feet further down the pad... But definitely will be headed to the small hill to work out my hand transition.

I soared the ridge for about an hour but my launch had gotten in my head. It wasn't a bad day in the air but I didn't enjoy it as much as I normally do.

[Ward Odenwald]

Mark, your launch wasn’t textbook but it was nowhere even close to being sketchy. Wire crew communications were excellent as was your acceleration down the ramp. During the run, the north-cross pushed you slightly off center but you left the ramp with nearly level wings and plenty of airspeed.

My only suggestion would be to reduce the time between raising the glider and launching. The longer the wait time, the greater the probability that one wing will experience air that differs from the other and then comes the wrestling. If the pickup isn’t smooth, put the glider back down and wait for better conditions. Also, remind your launch crew that you want full control of the glider while raising it. Your wing assistants may have differing techniques that could interfere with a smooth pickup. My launch plan is to wait for a window of smooth, non-textured air with the glider on the ground and then within one to three seconds, raise the glider and yell clear. Many pilots prefer to pause after picking up the glider to “feel the air” and under ideal conditions, this works but, as mentioned above, it often results in a wrestling match that ends with the glider back on the ground. If the pickup feels good, then your wings are level so start your run ASAP. I also takeoff with at least 1/3 VG. With no VG, there is a delay in sensing what’s going on with your wings.

Ward

[XCanytime]

This is good discussion. As a pilot who has flown the Pulpit year round since the addition of the pad in May 2009, and has used the pad extensively to launch from and not the ramps in the last 7 years, I guess I qualify as the pilot with the most experience launching from the pad. Every time I launch from the pad the conditions are moderate (12 to 18 MPH) to strong (19 to 25 MPH). Every time I launch from the pad I have the two spinner windsocks at the bottom of the pad. Every time I launch from the pad I am very close to the bottom of the pad to have the wing in the cleanest airflow, and not under any influence of mechanical turbulence from the rock walls on either side of the pad. I have, in 7 years, had 30+ launches from the pad, and have experienced only twice shallow dives after launching. And as I stated in a previous post on this thread, I attribute the shallow dive(s) I experienced from the pad to bad launch timing. Bacil

[markc]

Huh. Surprised.

Good to hear that my launch wasn't as bad as it felt. I suppose I tend toward a "That Sucked!!" reaction if anything doesn't feel completely right.

And probably better to err on that side than the opposite. But bottom line is still the same : Could/should have managed the R cross better than I did on Sunday.

Very good point about wait times. I know that several of my pickups were "up and immediately set-down", because it was clear that I didn't have sufficient control.

But I definitely am one of those who likes to 'feel the wing' for a bit, if a pick-up initially seems ok, or if it seems correctable with some adjustments. I'd like to say that I don't do so for more than 5 seconds, or a bit more.... But maybe I've been letting that slide a bit? Hmmm.

A completely clean pick-up, with good choice of cycle, good interaction with wire crew, and proper compensation for cross wind.... Yeah, that _should_ feel right from that very moment: "Launch-ready", right then and there. I still think I'm in the "feel it for a bit" camp, but I will make an effort to shorten that interval, and to be more selective on the pick-up.

[XCanytime]

According to Dennis Pagen"s Performance Flying, you should be able to pick the glider up, balance it, and launch within a mimimum of 3 seconds. My launch on Saturday from the pad took a bit longer (4 to 5 seconds) because I spent an extra second or two balancing the glider. Maybe I wouldn't have hit the "hole" had I launched 2 seconds earlier??? Hard to say. It really comes down to timing your launch at a point during a cycle that lasts long enough to get you away from the mountain with adequate clearance from terra firma. Bacil

[Ward Odenwald]

Here’s a video of last Sunday’s flight. It’s my first attempt at editing clips and using YouTube so no music, just the sweet sound of air. I need to work on improving the image resolution. Before submitting, everything looked good on my computer screen but the YouTube image quality is not the best. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. It also looks like the wide view of the GoPro lens distorts distances similar to the passenger side rear view mirror, so the trees really are closer than they appear!

https://youtu.be/nRCWi6OUSY4


Ward

[krryerson]

Ward,

Thanks for posting the video and the quality looks correct to me in YouTube.

Check this link, which shows you how to add music and more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GREeD2icUo

Also, you might think about to use the youtube link at chgpa by removing https://youtu.be/ to get this nRCWi6OUSY4 inside youtube bracket and you'll get this:



Great job and thanks again.

Knut

[Dave Gills]

I launched 5 on Saturday and then myself.

The 1st 3 launched into a hole and had to dive out. (Bacil, Tim B. & Knut)
After seeing all this Eric K. said screw that & had an good ramp launch.
Randy Weber had a beautiful pad launch as the 5th person off.
After Rich Bloomfield nose wired me into position, I had a straight off the pad launch also.

Like Bacil said, it is all timing.
I prefer to launch in lulls when the wind is at its weakest.
There are no holes in this case.
You have to run like hell and keep the nose down which makes it more of a PITA.