Parking at Daniels

[mingram]

Sometime this year (probably summer) a pilot parked his car at the end of Old Mountain road at the last house before turning up the difficult road up to launch (which has now been repaired - graded and covered in dirt).

The pilot stated he unknowingly parked in this landowner's flower beds - which at the time had no flowers growing in them. The land owner called the police, but wasn't able to determine who the pilot was so no charges were filed. The pilot says the landowner keyed his car which cost several thousand of dollars of damage which was thankfully covered by insurance. The pilot decided not to respond or provoke the situation further and kept quiet. I only found out about this incident from Jon Brantley who happened to hear of this incident after calling the Commisioner of Revenue Office for Green County. Jon was calling to find out who owned the road and to get permission fix it and the person he happened to get in touch with is the same landowner involved in the incident. She explained what happened (no mention of keying the car) and that we would not get permission to fix the road.

Upon hearing this I decided to visit the landowner to apologize for the incident and brought her flowers as a peace offering. Her and her husband are very nice people who explained that they just want people to be respectful. Their driveway gets washed out due to the poor drainage from the old road to launch and added traffic doesn't help that. In the past some people have accidentally spun their tires trying to get up to launch, which also needs to be avoided. Hopefully the new improvements to the road will mitigate some of their issues.

I explained that I will try my best to tell every pilot to avoid parking anywhere on Old Mountain road. I offered to give her my contact information in case she had any future issues, but she didn't think that was necessary.

No one should park on Old Mountain road. Be respectful, drive slowly. Be careful not to spin tires. Don't loiter in the street. This isn't our neighborhood and we need to respect the people that have to live there. If you park in the official LZ at Daniels, make sure you're parked completely off of the road.

[Matthew]

So...... is there something akin to Dumb-Ass fever affecting a segment of our flying community????

Simple things-- you don't park in someone's driveway or on their property without permission. You don't fly somewhere without first reviewing the site restrictions and regulations. You don't fly alone. If you get a special waiver to fly certain sites, you only fly the certain sites permitted on the special waiver. If you have to sign a waiver and join a club prior to flying their sites, you submit the waiver and pay your dues before flying the club's sites.

It's not that hard to follow some simple rules and use common sense.

Matthew

[mcelrah]

Keying someone's car does not garner respect - nor does ranting.
- Hugh

[RichH]

Nor does calling people Trolls

[mcelrah]

Who are you? Rich Heigel or Richard Hays? If the former, I reiterate "troll", which is not a respectful appellation, and intentionally so. If the latter, I already apologized. If you have been hiding behind an alias, then you take your licks. - Hugh

[RichH]

I wear that badge with honor sir..since the individuals you post with that label I have the utmost respect for. You have constantly been derogatory to any individual who tries to post a different point of view on this forum. I love all forms of flight and wish only that our community maintains safe protocols that help insure the safety of our sites and our flying community. I feel that all of us bear that responsibility. Rich Hiegel

[Dan T]

This forum is digressing into the kind of behavior that fragmented the club sometime back. Let's put a stop to it and return to the civility that we have all enjoyed for some time now. I don't think any of us want to see a return to the kind of flame fest free for all we've seen in the past.

It's winter, there haven't been a lot of flying days lately. We are all grouchy. Let's suck it up and think before we type.

Dan

[RichH]

I couldnt agree with you more Dan

[Matthew]

FOOD FIGHT!!!!

[chgpa]

This topic (let's ignore those posts that are simply inflammatory/baiting/name-calling, at least for the moment) clearly falls outside of this forum's charter. Which states:

Here are some examples of Off-Topic issues that must be discussed elsewhere:
[....]

• Site protocol concerns

So it is going to be moved to the club-related affairs forum, which is where it belongs. And if it continues on its current downward spiral, it will be locked.

If anyone has helpful and concrete suggestions or advice to maintain good relations with the landowners around Daniels, then great, by all means reply on this topic. Otherwise, "take it outside", know what I mean?

Two quick observations of my own:

• I've seen both HG and PG pilots parking along Old Mountain Road. So these unfortunate impacts on the local landowners are not wing-specific.
• It's the holidays people. How about a little good cheer? How about holding back on the negativity? How about trying to take the high-road, and staying above the fray? It's only December, sure hope we aren't going to be seeing this kind of acrimony for three months yet to come! Sheesh!

[mcelrah]

I wish to clear the air. Rich Hays thought I had called *him* a troll. Rich Heigle, I don't really know you. I don't want to be in the position of trying to defend any name-calling, so I hereby offer a full, sincere and unqualified apology.
Now, what just happened in the two threads about the tree landing and parking at Daniel's? An observer and club officer reported on it and we immediately reverted to ritualistic flogging of dead horses, bringing up past transgressions, sanctimonious preaching about site endangerment, and dark threats of rating revocation - and the culprits aren't even on the forum to be browbeaten! Nor will they ever be if scolding and piling on is all that happens here. You think rating revocation (bust him from P2to P1?) is necessary after the guy landed in a tree, hung sideways for an hour and had his lip busted? Or the guy who had his car keyed - what do you want to do to him? - hugh

[theflyingdude]

I wish to clear the air. Rich Hays thought I had called *him* a troll. Rich Heigle, I don't really know you. I don't want to be in the position of trying to defend any name-calling, so I hereby offer a full, sincere and unqualified apology.
Now, what just happened in the two threads about the tree landing and parking at Daniel's? An observer and club officer reported on it and we immediately reverted to ritualistic flogging of dead horses, bringing up past transgressions, sanctimonious preaching about site endangerment, and dark threats of rating revocation - and the culprits aren't even on the forum to be browbeaten! Nor will they ever be if scolding and piling on is all that happens here. You think rating revocation (bust him from P2to P1?) is necessary after the guy landed in a tree, hung sideways for an hour and had his lip busted? Or the guy who had his car keyed - what do you want to do to him? - hugh

I think Matthew's suggestion of rating revocations on another thread wasn't directed towards the P2 pilot who flew alone and ended up in the tree, but was more of a commentary regarding a series of blunders that have occurred over the past six months by some members of our flying community. I don't think someone having an accident or flying without appropriate supervision merits sanctions of that nature; however, pilots who willingly and willfully choose to disregard site protocols and thereby put our flying sites at risk could arguably deserve sanctions of that nature. The idea that you should be able to do something stupid or potentially harmful to the flying community, post about it, and then not face any criticism from your peers is ludicrous and flies in the face of self-regulation.

Perhaps some of you saw The Landing Zone, the quarterly e-newsletter from the USHPA that was delivered a couple days ago? It contained a story about two pilots from the Ft. Funston area who were suspended (one for a year and one forever) from organization for behavior that was deemed detrimental to the site and the overall flying community. Here's an excerpt from that newsletter, "...The board held a disciplinary hearing, following an investigation of a number of complaints regarding the conduct of two members in Region 2. USHPA bylaws provide for suspension or termination of membership by board action when the board makes a good-faith determination that the member has failed in a material and serious degree to observe the rules of conduct governing this corporation, as promulgated by the board, from time to time or has engaged in conduct materially and seriously prejudicial to the purposes and interests of the corporation. At the hearing and at a subsequent special hearing, USHPA acted to suspend the membership of Emily Hutchinson for a one-year period and permanently terminate the membership of Ward Carter."

The point being that bad behavior should have consequences within the flying community and there's nothing sanctimonious about that.

JR

[RichH]

First of all Hugh your apology is sincerely accepted. I think where our communities get off track is our perspective on prevention. When I first started flying when I was 18 in the late 70's we had the attitude of live and let live. We rarely if ever interceded and rarely offered corrective advice especially when it pertained to what was perceived as a qualified pilot or observer. Since that time on multiple occasions we have witnessed accidents and fatalities that could have been prevented. I have one circumstance ingrained in my memory that if I personally had taken some action I may have prevented a serious accident. Its from that memory that keeps me invested in trying to prevent future situations from occurring. I have seen recently an acceptance from the local flying community to embrace this process of mentoring instead of reacting to it in a negative manner. The CHGPA Forum can be a great learning medium for this process but pilots have to be open to receive constructive criticism offered in a factual manner. We are fortunate to have among us many pilots who have been flying for over 30+ years and have logged thousands of hours at our local sites but they are reluctant to voice their opinions on the forum out of fear of being labeled as pompous or worse. I think pointing out how a pilot could have prevented a situation from occurring as beneficial to the pilot in question and results in a safer community. We cant be walking on egg shells fearing being labeled when we offer advice in a sincere manner. The parking incident and others are going to happen on occasion but if we are to move from a community of prevention vs reactionary one we will need to embrace each others advice not turn away from it..

[mcelrah]

I haven't spoken to Matt Ingram, but I have a feeling his posts were an experiment to see whether any criticism would in fact be *constructive*. So far, IMHO we have flunked the test. Yes, you do have to walk on eggshells. Another way of saying it is that criticism has to be offered in such a way that is likely to be accepted. Why would anyone post here in order to get bitched at?
BTW, I haven't been able to get anyone to tell me what exactly happened at Funston to merit banning. - Hugh

[theflyingdude]

I think the situation at Funston was far more egregious, although I'm not privy to the specific details. It involved vandalism and bad behavior unrelated to any flying activities by hang glider pilots who had apparently flown the site for years. And I'm not advocating that anyone's rating be reduced due to the recent Hogback incident. I just think characterizing valid criticisms as "sanctimonious preaching about site endangerment, and dark threats of rating revocation" suggests those expressing concerns about questionable behavior are somehow the ones who are responsible for any divisiveness that may seem to exist between the groups.

JR

[mcelrah]

I'm just observing that the discussion on the private PG list was constructive while the one here went sour. I don't think it's lack of moderation by the forum manager (thanks, Mark, for your recent efforts!); it's apparently cultural. Nobody on the PG list excused the P2 flying alone - he's not on that list either since newbies aren't admitted right away. So the criticism here is directed at whom? It seems to be more about venting than site preservation... - Hugh