Ask Shawn McDuff at the High Rock party. I remember it being talked
about, but I don't remember who it was.
Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005, Mike Balk wrote:
> More publications: The cover of the PA tourism magazine has an HG flying
> from Hyner View. It is a topless with a red top surface. Anyone know who
> it is?
>
The Future of Our Sport
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
-
hepcat1989
- Posts: 684
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:15 pm
Matthew, my point is that ,with that temporary influx of people.. How many of them would have the drive, and determination to stick with it! That means the lessons, the fatiqued muscles after, or during training hill day the equipment cost. Some of those people may show up for lessons, and say yeah that was neat, and then off they go.How many would stick with it until the moment that your skills are put to the test. Your solo-- now that's a big one. Anyone that flies, and including the few new ones that get serious about it, have something inside. I think "That SOMETHING" inside is falling away. I don't know man, just what I feel. 
The Future of Our Sport
1% of all boys are boy scouts, and only 1% of those make Eagle Scout.
(reminiscent of the Few, the Proud). That means that Eagle Scouts are
elite, if only for their few numbers, it isn't that hard to achieve for a
motivated person.
How many people pilot aircraft in the US, and what percent of those pilot HG
or PG? Maybe rather than trying to be all-inlcusive, we should advertise
how elite we are. (Picture a TV ad with someone putting their HG on the car
and someone asks "What is that? And in a proud and knowing grin the
response: "A Hang Glider!" The thought "Wow, that is cool, I wish I could
be like you!)
-Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: hepcat1989 [mailto:hepcat88@innernet.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:40 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: The Future of Our Sport
Matthew, my point is that ,with that temporary influx of people.. How many
of them would have the drive, and determination to stick with it! That means
the lessons, the fatiqued muscles after, or during training hill day the
equipment cost. Some of those people may show up for lessons, and say yeah
that was neat, and then off they go.How many would stick with it until the
moment that your skills are put to the test. Your solo-- now that's a big
one. Anyone that flies, and including the few new ones that get serious
about it, have something inside. I think "That SOMETHING" inside is falling
away. I don't know man, just what I feel. [Question]
(reminiscent of the Few, the Proud). That means that Eagle Scouts are
elite, if only for their few numbers, it isn't that hard to achieve for a
motivated person.
How many people pilot aircraft in the US, and what percent of those pilot HG
or PG? Maybe rather than trying to be all-inlcusive, we should advertise
how elite we are. (Picture a TV ad with someone putting their HG on the car
and someone asks "What is that? And in a proud and knowing grin the
response: "A Hang Glider!" The thought "Wow, that is cool, I wish I could
be like you!)
-Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: hepcat1989 [mailto:hepcat88@innernet.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:40 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: The Future of Our Sport
Matthew, my point is that ,with that temporary influx of people.. How many
of them would have the drive, and determination to stick with it! That means
the lessons, the fatiqued muscles after, or during training hill day the
equipment cost. Some of those people may show up for lessons, and say yeah
that was neat, and then off they go.How many would stick with it until the
moment that your skills are put to the test. Your solo-- now that's a big
one. Anyone that flies, and including the few new ones that get serious
about it, have something inside. I think "That SOMETHING" inside is falling
away. I don't know man, just what I feel. [Question]
We Need a Movie?
[quote="Matthew"]
>>SNIP<<
or having a movie (a big dumb hollywood blockbuster... not a documentary) would excite the masses and create a temporary influx into the sport for a few years.
Matthew[/quote]
==
Hey, I thought Harold and Kumar looked pretty damn good flying into the parking lot at White Castle.
Somehow, I don't think that scene got us enough recogntion.
Maybe we need a film where the HG pilots actually GET the good looking women from the start!
Cragin
>>SNIP<<
or having a movie (a big dumb hollywood blockbuster... not a documentary) would excite the masses and create a temporary influx into the sport for a few years.
Matthew[/quote]
==
Hey, I thought Harold and Kumar looked pretty damn good flying into the parking lot at White Castle.
Somehow, I don't think that scene got us enough recogntion.
Maybe we need a film where the HG pilots actually GET the good looking women from the start!
Cragin
-
Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
Re: Dying Breed
That's news to the boatbuiders up here in Maine--they're doing a good business building sailboats, thank you.Matthew wrote:You think we're a dying breed... I read an article in the Post a few weeks ago about sailing. It's down something like 90 percent from 25 years ago. Even the big sailboat manufacturers that are still in business now build 90 percent powerboats. People want instant gratification these days.
Getting Lance into hang gliding or having a movie (a big dumb hollywood blockbuster... not a documentary) would excite the masses and create a temporary influx into the sport for a few years.
Matthew
marc
Great Googly-moo!
Some reality checks....
#1 barrier to entry... MONEY (no, I'm not kidding... #1)
#2 barrier to entry... TIME
Early 20s... no money (college/loans after graduation)
Late 20s-30s... no time (job/family)
Hang gliding isn't cheap.
It's not as expensive as other things out there, but we're talking thousands of dollars here, not hundreds. I don't know about you, but when I got out of college, I didn't have a couple thousand dollars hanging around.
Consider this... the ones that have money to burn generally have enough to pursue "normal" aviation. Around 5-7k will get you your private pilots license... and you get to do things with that (like take your freinds up).
Please note that ADVERTISING hasn't been mentioned (yet).
Something to appreciate first is the difference between someone that tries the sport and someone that pursues the sport.
Down at Kitty Hawk Kites, there are TONS of people that see the sport and try the sport. There are precious few that pursue the sport. Now what better advertising can you think of than a hang glider flying off the dune in front of people on vacation?
Here's the thing... it takes a special kind of idiot to fly a hang glider. Most of the people down at Kittyhawk aren't that person. They're normal people on vacation.
BTW... if you think your normal... go talk to someone and tell them you run off mountains for fun. I got news for you... you're a freak... we all are. We're not looking for normal people, we're looking for freaks.
A great exercise to try is go out onto the streets... anywhere you find normal people... talk to them... try to convince them that hang gliding is safe. Pick one. Any one. You'll be surprised at how hard (impossible) it is. The ones that already think it's (reasonably) safe are the ones that have a chance at being students.
Ok, there's the reality checks.
If you doubt them, call any hang gliding school and ask them. Talk to new students... ask why their freinds didn't sign up too.
So what works?
#1 The internet. (90% or better come from the internet)
#2 "What to do in _my_city_" publications (freebies).
#3 Bad News (hang gliding crashes)
That's it.
That's where new students come from.
Radio doesn't work. TV doesn't work. No one listens to advertising!!!!!!!!
The only ad stuff that pays off is "Guy Smily Adventure Dude does a tandem... what did you think Guy? (it was great!, I'm such a stud!)"
If you're looking to improve things, look for the freaks. Target them... not the masses. The masses KNOW we're NUTS. They don't think we're nuts, they're damn sure of it (and they're right... just ask them).
Show them a Tandem hang glider.
If you think people don't know what hang gliding is... rest assured NO ONE knows that Tandem hang gliding even exists. You don't have to have the "isn't hang gliding nuts" conversation after that.
Beyond that, I don't know.
I can tell you that the distance to the flying site is a HUGE detractor for those that would otherwise consider pursuing the sport.
Jim
#1 barrier to entry... MONEY (no, I'm not kidding... #1)
#2 barrier to entry... TIME
Early 20s... no money (college/loans after graduation)
Late 20s-30s... no time (job/family)
Hang gliding isn't cheap.
It's not as expensive as other things out there, but we're talking thousands of dollars here, not hundreds. I don't know about you, but when I got out of college, I didn't have a couple thousand dollars hanging around.
Consider this... the ones that have money to burn generally have enough to pursue "normal" aviation. Around 5-7k will get you your private pilots license... and you get to do things with that (like take your freinds up).
Please note that ADVERTISING hasn't been mentioned (yet).
Something to appreciate first is the difference between someone that tries the sport and someone that pursues the sport.
Down at Kitty Hawk Kites, there are TONS of people that see the sport and try the sport. There are precious few that pursue the sport. Now what better advertising can you think of than a hang glider flying off the dune in front of people on vacation?
Here's the thing... it takes a special kind of idiot to fly a hang glider. Most of the people down at Kittyhawk aren't that person. They're normal people on vacation.
BTW... if you think your normal... go talk to someone and tell them you run off mountains for fun. I got news for you... you're a freak... we all are. We're not looking for normal people, we're looking for freaks.
A great exercise to try is go out onto the streets... anywhere you find normal people... talk to them... try to convince them that hang gliding is safe. Pick one. Any one. You'll be surprised at how hard (impossible) it is. The ones that already think it's (reasonably) safe are the ones that have a chance at being students.
Ok, there's the reality checks.
If you doubt them, call any hang gliding school and ask them. Talk to new students... ask why their freinds didn't sign up too.
So what works?
#1 The internet. (90% or better come from the internet)
#2 "What to do in _my_city_" publications (freebies).
#3 Bad News (hang gliding crashes)
That's it.
That's where new students come from.
Radio doesn't work. TV doesn't work. No one listens to advertising!!!!!!!!
The only ad stuff that pays off is "Guy Smily Adventure Dude does a tandem... what did you think Guy? (it was great!, I'm such a stud!)"
If you're looking to improve things, look for the freaks. Target them... not the masses. The masses KNOW we're NUTS. They don't think we're nuts, they're damn sure of it (and they're right... just ask them).
Show them a Tandem hang glider.
If you think people don't know what hang gliding is... rest assured NO ONE knows that Tandem hang gliding even exists. You don't have to have the "isn't hang gliding nuts" conversation after that.
Beyond that, I don't know.
I can tell you that the distance to the flying site is a HUGE detractor for those that would otherwise consider pursuing the sport.
Jim
Man, lots to think about! 
1) Come up with sleek, hip, subtle image ads (they don't even have to say anything)...all you're doing is conveying an impression, period.
2) Run those ads again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again---that's 7 times (at least), which is the minimum number of times people have to see something before it actually sticks in their heads, before they connect that impression with the sport. The problem, admittedly, is that this can get expensive...but repetition is key...along with image.
Here's another idea to offset the money issue: sailplane clubs often own a sailplane, which they let club members use (since even fewer people can afford a $50k sailplane!). Have we ever talked about doing this? Is it ridiculous to think the club could eventually own a few HGs and PGs that members could use---with approval and observation, of course?
I know whitewater boaters who have spent a few years accumulating used boats so they could better accommodate new paddlers, better teach lessons, etc.
Scott
I definitely agree the money thing is a problem. Time I don't agree with---heck, people spend dozens of hours every week paddling their kayaks, or climbing, or cycling. So I don't think time is an issue.#1 barrier to entry... MONEY (no, I'm not kidding... #1)
#2 barrier to entry... TIME
Yeah, good point. I'd love to get some hard numbers from those guys, as well as from other instructors. (John, Rich---any idea what percentage of your students stick with it through their H2?)Down at Kitty Hawk Kites, there are TONS of people that see the sport and try the sport. There are precious few that pursue the sport. Now what better advertising can you think of than a hang glider flying off the dune in front of people on vacation?
I'd say nobody pays attention to lame advertising. The kind of advertising that works is subtle, image advertising. Not dorky crap like Flytec's ads on the back of the USHGA magazine...advertising can work really well...but nobody ever does it the right way! What's the right way?No one listens to advertising!!!!!!!!
1) Come up with sleek, hip, subtle image ads (they don't even have to say anything)...all you're doing is conveying an impression, period.
2) Run those ads again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again---that's 7 times (at least), which is the minimum number of times people have to see something before it actually sticks in their heads, before they connect that impression with the sport. The problem, admittedly, is that this can get expensive...but repetition is key...along with image.
Yeah, this is a problem...but again, I know paddlers that drive hundreds of miles every weekend (even more than pilots) to run rivers. Ditto for climbers, who don't think twice about driving to the New River Gorge to climb over a weekend.I can tell you that the distance to the flying site is a HUGE detractor for those that would otherwise consider pursuing the sport.
Here's another idea to offset the money issue: sailplane clubs often own a sailplane, which they let club members use (since even fewer people can afford a $50k sailplane!). Have we ever talked about doing this? Is it ridiculous to think the club could eventually own a few HGs and PGs that members could use---with approval and observation, of course?
I know whitewater boaters who have spent a few years accumulating used boats so they could better accommodate new paddlers, better teach lessons, etc.
Scott
The Future of Our Sport
How about copying our clippings, like they do in restaurants that get
reviewed in the Post? Use them as handouts. Matthew's portfolio,
but also the Washington Times article (including the poetic quote
wrongly attributed to me). By the way, I just called USHGA to get
our second comp subscription to the mag, which had gone inactive,
reinstated. Will bring comps as handouts to the fly-in. - Hugh
P.S. Maybe distributing material at general aviation venues (FBO's,
flying schools) would be effective. GA pilots have to have money and
stick-to-it-iveness, too.
On 16 Aug 2005, at 16:04, Scott wrote:
>
> I've talked to people who had the distinct impression that hang
> gliding (or paragliding) were simply beyond their reach...that it
> was just WAY too advanced/wild/crazy/technical a sport for them to do.
>
> I know that these people wouldn't feel the same way if they just
> watched one of John's classes, or watched a scooter tow lesson with
> Steve.
>
> SUGGESTION: I'd like to assemble a collection of testimonials from
> people, with a focus on the "I thought I couldn't do it, but I
> really did it!" angle. Testimonials---both in print and in video---
> are much more powerful than mere information.
>
> If you have a story that might convey "If I can do it, you can
> too!" to someone, then please send it to me! (Or if you want me to
> give you a call so you can just tell me your story, I'd be happy to
> do that too. Just let me know!)
>
> This would be a powerful addition to a revised brochure---which I'd
> be happy to produce.
>
> Scott
>
reviewed in the Post? Use them as handouts. Matthew's portfolio,
but also the Washington Times article (including the poetic quote
wrongly attributed to me). By the way, I just called USHGA to get
our second comp subscription to the mag, which had gone inactive,
reinstated. Will bring comps as handouts to the fly-in. - Hugh
P.S. Maybe distributing material at general aviation venues (FBO's,
flying schools) would be effective. GA pilots have to have money and
stick-to-it-iveness, too.
On 16 Aug 2005, at 16:04, Scott wrote:
>
> I've talked to people who had the distinct impression that hang
> gliding (or paragliding) were simply beyond their reach...that it
> was just WAY too advanced/wild/crazy/technical a sport for them to do.
>
> I know that these people wouldn't feel the same way if they just
> watched one of John's classes, or watched a scooter tow lesson with
> Steve.
>
> SUGGESTION: I'd like to assemble a collection of testimonials from
> people, with a focus on the "I thought I couldn't do it, but I
> really did it!" angle. Testimonials---both in print and in video---
> are much more powerful than mere information.
>
> If you have a story that might convey "If I can do it, you can
> too!" to someone, then please send it to me! (Or if you want me to
> give you a call so you can just tell me your story, I'd be happy to
> do that too. Just let me know!)
>
> This would be a powerful addition to a revised brochure---which I'd
> be happy to produce.
>
> Scott
>
The Future of Our Sport
What Jim said. No objection to promoting the sport, but...one of the
things that makes it really cool is the exclusivity. And the small,
close-knit community. Wouldn't be the same if HG was a mass sport
like skiing. That only happened after skiing was made more
accessible by the invention of the fiberglas ski by Howard Head.
General aviation is fighting the same battle - fewer pilots every
year, etc. They're hoping the new light sport rule will bring more
folks in. We may get some spin-off from that as well... - Hugh
On 16 Aug 2005, at 17:26, jimrooney wrote:
>
> Some reality checks....
>
> #1 barrier to entry... MONEY (no, I'm not kidding... #1)
> #2 barrier to entry... TIME
>
> Early 20s... no money (college/loans after graduation)
> Late 20s-30s... no time (job/family)
>
> Hang gliding isn't cheap.
> It's not as expensive as other things out there, but we're talking
> thousands of dollars here, not hundreds. I don't know about you,
> but when I got out of college, I didn't have a couple thousand
> dollars hanging around.
>
> Consider this... the ones that have money to burn generally have
> enough to pursue "normal" aviation. Around 5-7k will get you your
> private pilots license... and you get to do things with that (like
> take your freinds up).
>
> Please note that ADVERTISING hasn't been mentioned (yet).
>
> Something to appreciate first is the difference between someone
> that tries the sport and someone that pursues the sport.
>
> Down at Kitty Hawk Kites, there are TONS of people that see the
> sport and try the sport. There are precious few that pursue the
> sport. Now what better advertising can you think of than a hang
> glider flying off the dune in front of people on vacation?
>
> Here's the thing... it takes a special kind of idiot to fly a hang
> glider. Most of the people down at Kittyhawk aren't that person.
> They're normal people on vacation.
>
> BTW... if you think your normal... go talk to someone and tell them
> you run off mountains for fun. I got news for you... you're a
> freak... we all are. We're not looking for normal people, we're
> looking for freaks.
>
> A great exercise to try is go out onto the streets... anywhere you
> find normal people... talk to them... try to convince them that
> hang gliding is safe. Pick one. Any one. You'll be surprised at how
> hard (impossible) it is. The ones that already think it's
> (reasonably) safe are the ones that have a chance at being students.
>
> Ok, there's the reality checks.
> If you doubt them, call any hang gliding school and ask them. Talk
> to new students... ask why their freinds didn't sign up too.
>
> So what works?
> #1 The internet. (90% or better come from the internet)
> #2 "What to do in _my_city_" publications (freebies).
> #3 Bad News (hang gliding crashes)
>
> That's it.
> That's where new students come from.
>
> Radio doesn't work. TV doesn't work. No one listens to
> advertising!!!!!!!!
> The only ad stuff that pays off is "Guy Smily Adventure Dude does a
> tandem... what did you think Guy? (it was great!, I'm such a stud!)"
>
> If you're looking to improve things, look for the freaks. Target
> them... not the masses. The masses KNOW we're NUTS. They don't
> think we're nuts, they're damn sure of it (and they're right...
> just ask them).
>
> Show them a Tandem hang glider.
> If you think people don't know what hang gliding is... rest assured
> NO ONE knows that Tandem hang gliding even exists. You don't have
> to have the "isn't hang gliding nuts" conversation after that.
>
> Beyond that, I don't know.
> I can tell you that the distance to the flying site is a HUGE
> detractor for those that would otherwise consider pursuing the sport.
>
> Jim
>
things that makes it really cool is the exclusivity. And the small,
close-knit community. Wouldn't be the same if HG was a mass sport
like skiing. That only happened after skiing was made more
accessible by the invention of the fiberglas ski by Howard Head.
General aviation is fighting the same battle - fewer pilots every
year, etc. They're hoping the new light sport rule will bring more
folks in. We may get some spin-off from that as well... - Hugh
On 16 Aug 2005, at 17:26, jimrooney wrote:
>
> Some reality checks....
>
> #1 barrier to entry... MONEY (no, I'm not kidding... #1)
> #2 barrier to entry... TIME
>
> Early 20s... no money (college/loans after graduation)
> Late 20s-30s... no time (job/family)
>
> Hang gliding isn't cheap.
> It's not as expensive as other things out there, but we're talking
> thousands of dollars here, not hundreds. I don't know about you,
> but when I got out of college, I didn't have a couple thousand
> dollars hanging around.
>
> Consider this... the ones that have money to burn generally have
> enough to pursue "normal" aviation. Around 5-7k will get you your
> private pilots license... and you get to do things with that (like
> take your freinds up).
>
> Please note that ADVERTISING hasn't been mentioned (yet).
>
> Something to appreciate first is the difference between someone
> that tries the sport and someone that pursues the sport.
>
> Down at Kitty Hawk Kites, there are TONS of people that see the
> sport and try the sport. There are precious few that pursue the
> sport. Now what better advertising can you think of than a hang
> glider flying off the dune in front of people on vacation?
>
> Here's the thing... it takes a special kind of idiot to fly a hang
> glider. Most of the people down at Kittyhawk aren't that person.
> They're normal people on vacation.
>
> BTW... if you think your normal... go talk to someone and tell them
> you run off mountains for fun. I got news for you... you're a
> freak... we all are. We're not looking for normal people, we're
> looking for freaks.
>
> A great exercise to try is go out onto the streets... anywhere you
> find normal people... talk to them... try to convince them that
> hang gliding is safe. Pick one. Any one. You'll be surprised at how
> hard (impossible) it is. The ones that already think it's
> (reasonably) safe are the ones that have a chance at being students.
>
> Ok, there's the reality checks.
> If you doubt them, call any hang gliding school and ask them. Talk
> to new students... ask why their freinds didn't sign up too.
>
> So what works?
> #1 The internet. (90% or better come from the internet)
> #2 "What to do in _my_city_" publications (freebies).
> #3 Bad News (hang gliding crashes)
>
> That's it.
> That's where new students come from.
>
> Radio doesn't work. TV doesn't work. No one listens to
> advertising!!!!!!!!
> The only ad stuff that pays off is "Guy Smily Adventure Dude does a
> tandem... what did you think Guy? (it was great!, I'm such a stud!)"
>
> If you're looking to improve things, look for the freaks. Target
> them... not the masses. The masses KNOW we're NUTS. They don't
> think we're nuts, they're damn sure of it (and they're right...
> just ask them).
>
> Show them a Tandem hang glider.
> If you think people don't know what hang gliding is... rest assured
> NO ONE knows that Tandem hang gliding even exists. You don't have
> to have the "isn't hang gliding nuts" conversation after that.
>
> Beyond that, I don't know.
> I can tell you that the distance to the flying site is a HUGE
> detractor for those that would otherwise consider pursuing the sport.
>
> Jim
>
I'm with you there, Hugh---I like being unique!No objection to promoting the sport, but...one of the
things that makes it really cool is the exclusivity. And the small,
close-knit community. Wouldn't be the same if HG was a mass sport
like skiing.
In this case, it seems like there ought to be some way for the sport---and the manufacturers---to establish some sort of "baseline for survival," the minimum number of H2 or higher-rated pilots, for example, to keep the sport (and the manufacturers) viable. (Are we there now? Are we above it? Below it?)Scott
PS - Keep the ideas coming! I'll compile them all into a single post when the topic finally dies.
The Future of Our Sport
But I LOVE the dorky Flytec ads - especially the one with the
lascivious women being ignored by the dork with his vario. And the
flying grand piano. And the topless girl hugging the shortpacked
Aeros glider. And...I'm really bored with snapshots of people
smiling at the camera. Give me more flying pictures!
- Hugh (contrarian)
P.S. Where's my hardcopy newsletter? The USHGA mag finally arrived...
On 16 Aug 2005, at 17:59, Scott wrote:
>
> Man, lots to think about!
>
> Quote:
> #1 barrier to entry... MONEY (no, I'm not kidding... #1)
> #2 barrier to entry... TIME
> (end of quote)
>
> I definitely agree the money thing is a problem. Time I don't agree
> with---heck, people spend dozens of hours every week paddling their
> kayaks, or climbing, or cycling. So I don't think time is an issue.
>
> Quote:
> Down at Kitty Hawk Kites, there are TONS of people that see the
> sport and try the sport. There are precious few that pursue the
> sport. Now what better advertising can you think of than a hang
> glider flying off the dune in front of people on vacation?
> (end of quote)
>
> Yeah, good point. I'd love to get some hard numbers from those
> guys, as well as from other instructors. (John, Rich---any idea
> what percentage of your students stick with it through their H2?)
>
> Quote:
> No one listens to advertising!!!!!!!!
> (end of quote)
>
> I'd say nobody pays attention to lame advertising. The kind of
> advertising that works is subtle, image advertising. Not dorky crap
> like Flytec's ads on the back of the USHGA magazine...advertising
> can work really well...but nobody ever does it the right way!
> What's the right way?
> 1) Come up with sleek, hip, subtle image ads (they don't even have
> to say anything)...all you're doing is conveying an impression,
> period.
> 2) Run those ads again, and again, and again, and again, and again,
> and again, and again---that's 7 times (at least), which is the
> minimum number of times people have to see something before it
> actually sticks in their heads, before they connect that impression
> with the sport. The problem, admittedly, is that this can get
> expensive...but repetition is key...along with image.
>
> Quote:
> I can tell you that the distance to the flying site is a HUGE
> detractor for those that would otherwise consider pursuing the sport.
> (end of quote)
>
> Yeah, this is a problem...but again, I know paddlers that drive
> hundreds of miles every weekend (even more than pilots) to run
> rivers. Ditto for climbers, who don't think twice about driving to
> the New River Gorge to climb over a weekend.
>
> Here's another idea to offset the money issue: sailplane clubs
> often own a sailplane, which they let club members use (since even
> fewer people can afford a $50k sailplane!). Have we ever talked
> about doing this? Is it ridiculous to think the club could
> eventually own a few HGs and PGs that members could use---with
> approval and observation, of course?
>
> I know whitewater boaters who have spent a few years accumulating
> used boats so they could better accommodate new paddlers, better
> teach lessons, etc.
>
> Scott
>
lascivious women being ignored by the dork with his vario. And the
flying grand piano. And the topless girl hugging the shortpacked
Aeros glider. And...I'm really bored with snapshots of people
smiling at the camera. Give me more flying pictures!
- Hugh (contrarian)
P.S. Where's my hardcopy newsletter? The USHGA mag finally arrived...
On 16 Aug 2005, at 17:59, Scott wrote:
>
> Man, lots to think about!
>
> Quote:
> #1 barrier to entry... MONEY (no, I'm not kidding... #1)
> #2 barrier to entry... TIME
> (end of quote)
>
> I definitely agree the money thing is a problem. Time I don't agree
> with---heck, people spend dozens of hours every week paddling their
> kayaks, or climbing, or cycling. So I don't think time is an issue.
>
> Quote:
> Down at Kitty Hawk Kites, there are TONS of people that see the
> sport and try the sport. There are precious few that pursue the
> sport. Now what better advertising can you think of than a hang
> glider flying off the dune in front of people on vacation?
> (end of quote)
>
> Yeah, good point. I'd love to get some hard numbers from those
> guys, as well as from other instructors. (John, Rich---any idea
> what percentage of your students stick with it through their H2?)
>
> Quote:
> No one listens to advertising!!!!!!!!
> (end of quote)
>
> I'd say nobody pays attention to lame advertising. The kind of
> advertising that works is subtle, image advertising. Not dorky crap
> like Flytec's ads on the back of the USHGA magazine...advertising
> can work really well...but nobody ever does it the right way!
> What's the right way?
> 1) Come up with sleek, hip, subtle image ads (they don't even have
> to say anything)...all you're doing is conveying an impression,
> period.
> 2) Run those ads again, and again, and again, and again, and again,
> and again, and again---that's 7 times (at least), which is the
> minimum number of times people have to see something before it
> actually sticks in their heads, before they connect that impression
> with the sport. The problem, admittedly, is that this can get
> expensive...but repetition is key...along with image.
>
> Quote:
> I can tell you that the distance to the flying site is a HUGE
> detractor for those that would otherwise consider pursuing the sport.
> (end of quote)
>
> Yeah, this is a problem...but again, I know paddlers that drive
> hundreds of miles every weekend (even more than pilots) to run
> rivers. Ditto for climbers, who don't think twice about driving to
> the New River Gorge to climb over a weekend.
>
> Here's another idea to offset the money issue: sailplane clubs
> often own a sailplane, which they let club members use (since even
> fewer people can afford a $50k sailplane!). Have we ever talked
> about doing this? Is it ridiculous to think the club could
> eventually own a few HGs and PGs that members could use---with
> approval and observation, of course?
>
> I know whitewater boaters who have spent a few years accumulating
> used boats so they could better accommodate new paddlers, better
> teach lessons, etc.
>
> Scott
>
old message
Hi folks
I am new to the forum/Capital Club, but not new to the flying area nor hang gliding. I started flying by purchasing a standard in the late seventies, early eighties. To me and the experience that I have had through those years would lead me to believe that our sport has changed its focus quite dramatically. In those early years people new to the idea of hang gliding saw us as ground skimmers; and boy did we have fun! Large groups of pilots would gather at Oregon Ridge for the kind of great fun that would see you through another week of normal boredom. I believe Richard Hays was one of the few teachers around and he could be found almost every weekend at Oregon ridge. His enthusiasm, and others, was infectious. Yes, we did XC. at HR, Pulpit, Bills, etc.,as they became developed, but our focus was hanging out at the local sites where we all seemed to end up in the LZ, with crowds that were as large as those at takeoff. What is now called boring soaring was then called "as good as it gets"... There used to be hills like Oregon Ridge, that weren't really thought of "as" just training hills, but places to fly....and places to be with others that loved flying too. It was something ....taking off like a bird...flying across the ground and landing again...just like a bird. That kind of focus welded us together as a group....a group where we each felt we could participate in... The gliders were forgiving, and so was the focus. The public perception of us was like we were the fun loving Wright Brothers and....that they could easily become part of our fun....and boy did they ever. In the early and latae eighties Oregon Ridge and other infamous hills would become so crowded it would be hard to find parking; and boy did we have fun....and do you remember Daring Denise from channel 2??? She flew too! Consequently the number of flights at the growing number of mountain sights just grew and grew.. Our focus now is on something that appears much more unattainable and, should I really say it ...."crazy". We are no longer seen as ground skimming, have fun, easy goin' easy to do party folk, but real pilots; death defying pilots at that! Just watch the landings as the higher and higher performance gliders pile into the local LZ.....that is if they even show up at all. Most have gone their own way XC. All not too appealling to John Q public. The original idea of flying really hasn't changed; just the part we focus on. But to John Q public it seems to make all the difference in the world....Then there is the dramatic increase in cost just to have the privilege to be a crazy pilot!
BudA
I am new to the forum/Capital Club, but not new to the flying area nor hang gliding. I started flying by purchasing a standard in the late seventies, early eighties. To me and the experience that I have had through those years would lead me to believe that our sport has changed its focus quite dramatically. In those early years people new to the idea of hang gliding saw us as ground skimmers; and boy did we have fun! Large groups of pilots would gather at Oregon Ridge for the kind of great fun that would see you through another week of normal boredom. I believe Richard Hays was one of the few teachers around and he could be found almost every weekend at Oregon ridge. His enthusiasm, and others, was infectious. Yes, we did XC. at HR, Pulpit, Bills, etc.,as they became developed, but our focus was hanging out at the local sites where we all seemed to end up in the LZ, with crowds that were as large as those at takeoff. What is now called boring soaring was then called "as good as it gets"... There used to be hills like Oregon Ridge, that weren't really thought of "as" just training hills, but places to fly....and places to be with others that loved flying too. It was something ....taking off like a bird...flying across the ground and landing again...just like a bird. That kind of focus welded us together as a group....a group where we each felt we could participate in... The gliders were forgiving, and so was the focus. The public perception of us was like we were the fun loving Wright Brothers and....that they could easily become part of our fun....and boy did they ever. In the early and latae eighties Oregon Ridge and other infamous hills would become so crowded it would be hard to find parking; and boy did we have fun....and do you remember Daring Denise from channel 2??? She flew too! Consequently the number of flights at the growing number of mountain sights just grew and grew.. Our focus now is on something that appears much more unattainable and, should I really say it ...."crazy". We are no longer seen as ground skimming, have fun, easy goin' easy to do party folk, but real pilots; death defying pilots at that! Just watch the landings as the higher and higher performance gliders pile into the local LZ.....that is if they even show up at all. Most have gone their own way XC. All not too appealling to John Q public. The original idea of flying really hasn't changed; just the part we focus on. But to John Q public it seems to make all the difference in the world....Then there is the dramatic increase in cost just to have the privilege to be a crazy pilot!
BudA
The Future of Our Sport
Wonder if that Martin Berenson(sp?) guy could do a biz-school case on
that. How many units do they need to sell to be stable, be able to
do R&D, etc. GA manufacturers that sell 100 units a year are happy
(top seller in U.S. sold 1000 or so last year). I've been saying
that he who makes a higher performance glider that's as light and
easy to set up/break down as a single surface will rule. The aging
demographic will tend to make this a key design criterion rather than
top-end performance that the comp pilots need. On the other hand,
towing may make heavy rigids a bigger part of the mix... PG still
has dozens of manufacturers and quite a bit of design fermentation.
Maybe we'll get PGs with some battens and near-HG performance...
Wonder how much of this is a U.S.-only, HG-only deterioration caused
by the general narcotic of mass entertainment and associated couch-
potato-ism. The Europeans seem to have lots of pilots... What effect
will $3/gallon gas have? SUVs as hang vehicles too extravagant?
General aviation too expensive, too, so more people look to free
flight? - Hugh
On 16 Aug 2005, at 18:30, Scott wrote:
>
>
> Quote:
> No objection to promoting the sport, but...one of the
> things that makes it really cool is the exclusivity. And the small,
> close-knit community. Wouldn't be the same if HG was a mass sport
> like skiing.
> (end of quote)
>
> I'm with you there, Hugh---I like being unique! In this case, it
> seems like there ought to be some way for the sport---and the
> manufacturers---to establish some sort of "baseline for survival,"
> the minimum number of H2 or higher-rated pilots, for example, to
> keep the sport (and the manufacturers) viable. (Are we there now?
> Are we above it? Below it?)
>
> Scott
>
> PS - Keep the ideas coming! I'll compile them all into a single
> post when the topic finally dies.
>
that. How many units do they need to sell to be stable, be able to
do R&D, etc. GA manufacturers that sell 100 units a year are happy
(top seller in U.S. sold 1000 or so last year). I've been saying
that he who makes a higher performance glider that's as light and
easy to set up/break down as a single surface will rule. The aging
demographic will tend to make this a key design criterion rather than
top-end performance that the comp pilots need. On the other hand,
towing may make heavy rigids a bigger part of the mix... PG still
has dozens of manufacturers and quite a bit of design fermentation.
Maybe we'll get PGs with some battens and near-HG performance...
Wonder how much of this is a U.S.-only, HG-only deterioration caused
by the general narcotic of mass entertainment and associated couch-
potato-ism. The Europeans seem to have lots of pilots... What effect
will $3/gallon gas have? SUVs as hang vehicles too extravagant?
General aviation too expensive, too, so more people look to free
flight? - Hugh
On 16 Aug 2005, at 18:30, Scott wrote:
>
>
> Quote:
> No objection to promoting the sport, but...one of the
> things that makes it really cool is the exclusivity. And the small,
> close-knit community. Wouldn't be the same if HG was a mass sport
> like skiing.
> (end of quote)
>
> I'm with you there, Hugh---I like being unique!
In this case, it > seems like there ought to be some way for the sport---and the
> manufacturers---to establish some sort of "baseline for survival,"
> the minimum number of H2 or higher-rated pilots, for example, to
> keep the sport (and the manufacturers) viable. (Are we there now?
> Are we above it? Below it?)
>
> Scott
>
> PS - Keep the ideas coming! I'll compile them all into a single
> post when the topic finally dies.
>
Really interesting comments BudA...especially to people new to the sport like me. What you talk about (today's changing focus) is definitely the "Xtreme-ification" of the sport, and it's happening in every sport.
People at the high end of the sports are naturally pushing the envelope as technology progresses...(aerobatics, waterfall-jumping, free-climbing El Capitan, etc.) and the media & manufacturers are into it bigtime 'cause it looks cool and (they think) sells more gear. I think the "Xtreme" thing is actually backfiring though, as most average folks just shrug, laugh, and say "No way, not me." To borrow Jim's word, Xtreme sports just make it that much more of a freakshow. And in our sport, thanks to Red Bull and others, more people think hang gliding = aerobatics (since just flying is dull, right? <sarcasm>).
Scott
People at the high end of the sports are naturally pushing the envelope as technology progresses...(aerobatics, waterfall-jumping, free-climbing El Capitan, etc.) and the media & manufacturers are into it bigtime 'cause it looks cool and (they think) sells more gear. I think the "Xtreme" thing is actually backfiring though, as most average folks just shrug, laugh, and say "No way, not me." To borrow Jim's word, Xtreme sports just make it that much more of a freakshow. And in our sport, thanks to Red Bull and others, more people think hang gliding = aerobatics (since just flying is dull, right? <sarcasm>).
Scott
The time thing....
Kyaking doesn't take all day. Cycling doesn't take all day. You just don't go hang gliding, and then make it to some other function. Tell me you don't go out with the guys after a day of soaring the mountains? And that's after you know what you're doing.
H0 -> H2 is a HUGE time investment.
Exactly how many weekends did it take all of us to get to H2? How many "I'm sorry hun, I'll be driving 3 hours to run down a hill all day and won't be back till dark"? Unless the training hill is next door, you're in it for the day.
This isn't oppinion... this is actual "why students stop showing up" stuff. Call around.
Advertising....
Do you honestly think that the public thinks HG isn't absolutely BADASS? Do you really think we have an image problem? We are the daringest of daredevils... we're the same as Base Jumpers and Skydivers. PERIOD.
You know how you can tell if a tandem is going to sign up for lessons? They ALL say the same thing (before they go)... "Man, I've wanted to do this my whole life". EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Exactly what advertising goal are we seeking? These people have wanted to do this their whole life! They know what hang gliding is. They don't know what the details are, but they can tell you what one is (even if they can't spell it).
Here's my problem with the advertising debate....
It's the easy answer that everyone can jump on board with. You throw money at the problem and it goes away. If it doesn't you're not throwing the right money at it or you're throwing the money in the wrong place. But no one likes to think that the problem might NOT be advertising related.
Ads are run because they need to be run.
If a movie is a blockbuster, there are very few ads run for it. If it's not (or when the blockbuster fizzles), that's when you see the ads. There's a need or there wouldn't be money flowing.
Trust me... ask around before you start throwing money (away) at advertising. Some things work, most don't. A lot just bring in more "one and done" flights. The people that are looking to get into hang gliding already know it's out there... other factors keep them out.
There are no new H2s in Eastern PA. Why not?
There are no training hills.
There are no instructors.
So, perhaps before jumping the gun and going to advertising, maybe we should takle some real issues... like a club glider? Now you're talking.
How about finding a new training hill.
How about building a scooter tow.
How about helping John Middleton out with classes.
How about buying your next glider from an instructor rather than a buddy so your instructor can stay in business.
How about getting your instructor rating so you can really help at the training hill.
This stuff's harder, but it actually works.
Someone smart (unlike me) put it best... we don't have a problem getting people interested in the sport. The ones that will pursue it already are. We have a problem keeping them in it.
Life as an H2 is a pain in the ass. Just getting to H2 can be a pain. If you make it to H3, then the sport seems reasonable. All the really hard stuff is taken care of by then.
I'm not against advertising. I'm just tired of the advertising debate. This wheel's been invented... talk to the people that live and die by it. They know what works and what doesn't. If you want to talk about advertising, start talking about some NEW ideas. Changing Hang gliding's image or awareness isn't one of them.
Jim
Kyaking doesn't take all day. Cycling doesn't take all day. You just don't go hang gliding, and then make it to some other function. Tell me you don't go out with the guys after a day of soaring the mountains? And that's after you know what you're doing.
H0 -> H2 is a HUGE time investment.
Exactly how many weekends did it take all of us to get to H2? How many "I'm sorry hun, I'll be driving 3 hours to run down a hill all day and won't be back till dark"? Unless the training hill is next door, you're in it for the day.
This isn't oppinion... this is actual "why students stop showing up" stuff. Call around.
Advertising....
Do you honestly think that the public thinks HG isn't absolutely BADASS? Do you really think we have an image problem? We are the daringest of daredevils... we're the same as Base Jumpers and Skydivers. PERIOD.
You know how you can tell if a tandem is going to sign up for lessons? They ALL say the same thing (before they go)... "Man, I've wanted to do this my whole life". EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Exactly what advertising goal are we seeking? These people have wanted to do this their whole life! They know what hang gliding is. They don't know what the details are, but they can tell you what one is (even if they can't spell it).
Here's my problem with the advertising debate....
It's the easy answer that everyone can jump on board with. You throw money at the problem and it goes away. If it doesn't you're not throwing the right money at it or you're throwing the money in the wrong place. But no one likes to think that the problem might NOT be advertising related.
Ads are run because they need to be run.
If a movie is a blockbuster, there are very few ads run for it. If it's not (or when the blockbuster fizzles), that's when you see the ads. There's a need or there wouldn't be money flowing.
Trust me... ask around before you start throwing money (away) at advertising. Some things work, most don't. A lot just bring in more "one and done" flights. The people that are looking to get into hang gliding already know it's out there... other factors keep them out.
There are no new H2s in Eastern PA. Why not?
There are no training hills.
There are no instructors.
So, perhaps before jumping the gun and going to advertising, maybe we should takle some real issues... like a club glider? Now you're talking.
How about finding a new training hill.
How about building a scooter tow.
How about helping John Middleton out with classes.
How about buying your next glider from an instructor rather than a buddy so your instructor can stay in business.
How about getting your instructor rating so you can really help at the training hill.
This stuff's harder, but it actually works.
Someone smart (unlike me) put it best... we don't have a problem getting people interested in the sport. The ones that will pursue it already are. We have a problem keeping them in it.
Life as an H2 is a pain in the ass. Just getting to H2 can be a pain. If you make it to H3, then the sport seems reasonable. All the really hard stuff is taken care of by then.
I'm not against advertising. I'm just tired of the advertising debate. This wheel's been invented... talk to the people that live and die by it. They know what works and what doesn't. If you want to talk about advertising, start talking about some NEW ideas. Changing Hang gliding's image or awareness isn't one of them.
Jim
-
hang_pilot
- Posts: 662
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:13 pm
- Location: Tallahassee, FL
David/All: We will gladly provide you with brochures to hand out at flying sites or elsewhere. The flyer includes a coupon for a discounted first lesson good with any of our local instructors (Ralph arranged that). Matthew is bringing a box to the Fly-in this weekend, please grab a bunch to keep in your HG/PG vehicle.
Scott: It sounds like you are volunteering to update our brochure: thanks, go for it! Ralph has the file for the current version. If you want to use that as a starting point for a new design, drop him a line. We would probably want to wait to pay for a print run on a new edition until current stock runs lower.
Scott: It sounds like you are volunteering to update our brochure: thanks, go for it! Ralph has the file for the current version. If you want to use that as a starting point for a new design, drop him a line. We would probably want to wait to pay for a print run on a new edition until current stock runs lower.
Good points all, Jim---and I agree that advertising isn't "the answer." I'd even agree that money is probably better spent elsewhere (like on a club glider, sites, etc.) The only point I was trying to make by talking about advertising was to suggest there must be people out there for whom hang gliding is badass, but it's just a fleeting, badass-glimpse of something they think is only done by Hollywood stuntmen, and not by normal freaks like us.
Your point about not getting more people into the sport, but keeping the ones who come to it is good. So let's focus on that!
Scott
PS - Sure Daniel, I can do the brochure---and printing isn't even an issue, since it's just a tri-fold 8.5x11" thing (heck, I can even pay for those...or print 'em myself in color!).
Your point about not getting more people into the sport, but keeping the ones who come to it is good. So let's focus on that!
Scott
PS - Sure Daniel, I can do the brochure---and printing isn't even an issue, since it's just a tri-fold 8.5x11" thing (heck, I can even pay for those...or print 'em myself in color!).
The Future of Our Sport
On Aug 16, 2005, at 5:26 PM, jimrooney wrote:
I kind of agree with Jim.? The general population isn't a target-rich environment.? Broad-based advertising to reach the 1 in 1,000 that might think about hanggliding would end up being mondo-expensive, especially on a per-freak basis.? Still, I keep meaning to look up how to get ourselves in the Post's Weekend section and the City Paper's Activities (or whatever) section alongside the curling club and the table tennis club.? It wouldn't be terribly effective, but it should be free.? I also like the idea of painting our URL on High Rock.
BTW, I was at the kite festival a couple of years ago, and we handed out a couple hundred flyers to a lot of seemingly excited prospects.? I heard not one 10% off coupon got redeemed.? Bummed me out.
Flying in public is probably going to be our best long-term advertising: Kitty Hawk, the sky gods landing on the beach, etc.? A seed is planted in some 6-year old's mind that doesn't bear fruit for 15 or 20 years.? We just have to hang on until then.? And I think we will.
I'm not too worried about the long-term diminution in the number of manufacturers.? It's inevitable in any maturing industry.? Look at the number of auto manufacturers in 1905 versus 2005.? It'll happen in paragliding too.
David Bodner
d.bodner@verizon.net (d.bodner@verizon.net)
(703) 516-7101
(703) 946-0123 cell
KI4AFI
BTW... if you think your normal... go talk to someone and tell them you run off mountains for fun. I got news for you... you're a freak... we all are. We're not looking for normal people, we're looking for freaks.
I kind of agree with Jim.? The general population isn't a target-rich environment.? Broad-based advertising to reach the 1 in 1,000 that might think about hanggliding would end up being mondo-expensive, especially on a per-freak basis.? Still, I keep meaning to look up how to get ourselves in the Post's Weekend section and the City Paper's Activities (or whatever) section alongside the curling club and the table tennis club.? It wouldn't be terribly effective, but it should be free.? I also like the idea of painting our URL on High Rock.
BTW, I was at the kite festival a couple of years ago, and we handed out a couple hundred flyers to a lot of seemingly excited prospects.? I heard not one 10% off coupon got redeemed.? Bummed me out.
Flying in public is probably going to be our best long-term advertising: Kitty Hawk, the sky gods landing on the beach, etc.? A seed is planted in some 6-year old's mind that doesn't bear fruit for 15 or 20 years.? We just have to hang on until then.? And I think we will.
I'm not too worried about the long-term diminution in the number of manufacturers.? It's inevitable in any maturing industry.? Look at the number of auto manufacturers in 1905 versus 2005.? It'll happen in paragliding too.
David Bodner
d.bodner@verizon.net (d.bodner@verizon.net)
(703) 516-7101
(703) 946-0123 cell
KI4AFI
-
SheilaGardner
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:14 pm
The Future of Our Sport
I submitted an idea for a tv advertisement years ago to a car
manufacturer where a car/suv/truck is driving through all kinds of
bad roads to get to a launch - with hg'er on top. Get to launch -
launch the glider and then in the lz the pilot takes off her helmet.
Never heard back but could be worth a try again to the right
manufacturer - or all of them! Sheila
On Aug 16, 2005, at 4:50 PM, Mike Balk wrote:
>
> 1% of all boys are boy scouts, and only 1% of those make Eagle Scout.
> (reminiscent of the Few, the Proud). That means that Eagle Scouts are
> elite, if only for their few numbers, it isn't that hard to achieve
> for a
> motivated person.
>
> How many people pilot aircraft in the US, and what percent of those
> pilot HG
> or PG? Maybe rather than trying to be all-inlcusive, we should
> advertise
> how elite we are. (Picture a TV ad with someone putting their HG
> on the car
> and someone asks "What is that? And in a proud and knowing grin the
> response: "A Hang Glider!" The thought "Wow, that is cool, I wish
> I could
> be like you!)
>
>
> -Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hepcat1989 [mailto:hepcat88@innernet.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:40 PM
> To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> Subject: The Future of Our Sport
>
>
> Matthew, my point is that ,with that temporary influx of people..
> How many
> of them would have the drive, and determination to stick with it!
> That means
> the lessons, the fatiqued muscles after, or during training hill
> day the
> equipment cost. Some of those people may show up for lessons, and
> say yeah
> that was neat, and then off they go.How many would stick with it
> until the
> moment that your skills are put to the test. Your solo-- now that's
> a big
> one. Anyone that flies, and including the few new ones that get
> serious
> about it, have something inside. I think "That SOMETHING" inside is
> falling
> away. I don't know man, just what I feel. [Question]
>
>
>
>
>
manufacturer where a car/suv/truck is driving through all kinds of
bad roads to get to a launch - with hg'er on top. Get to launch -
launch the glider and then in the lz the pilot takes off her helmet.
Never heard back but could be worth a try again to the right
manufacturer - or all of them! Sheila
On Aug 16, 2005, at 4:50 PM, Mike Balk wrote:
>
> 1% of all boys are boy scouts, and only 1% of those make Eagle Scout.
> (reminiscent of the Few, the Proud). That means that Eagle Scouts are
> elite, if only for their few numbers, it isn't that hard to achieve
> for a
> motivated person.
>
> How many people pilot aircraft in the US, and what percent of those
> pilot HG
> or PG? Maybe rather than trying to be all-inlcusive, we should
> advertise
> how elite we are. (Picture a TV ad with someone putting their HG
> on the car
> and someone asks "What is that? And in a proud and knowing grin the
> response: "A Hang Glider!" The thought "Wow, that is cool, I wish
> I could
> be like you!)
>
>
> -Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hepcat1989 [mailto:hepcat88@innernet.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 4:40 PM
> To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
> Subject: The Future of Our Sport
>
>
> Matthew, my point is that ,with that temporary influx of people..
> How many
> of them would have the drive, and determination to stick with it!
> That means
> the lessons, the fatiqued muscles after, or during training hill
> day the
> equipment cost. Some of those people may show up for lessons, and
> say yeah
> that was neat, and then off they go.How many would stick with it
> until the
> moment that your skills are put to the test. Your solo-- now that's
> a big
> one. Anyone that flies, and including the few new ones that get
> serious
> about it, have something inside. I think "That SOMETHING" inside is
> falling
> away. I don't know man, just what I feel. [Question]
>
>
>
>
>
Free Advertising
I've always wondered why the manufacturers don't write the words Hang Glider on both sieds of the bag, i.e. Will Wing Hang Glider. People always look over at your vehhicle and wonder what the Hell is on top of your car. They always ask at the gas station, et cet. The problem isn't so much a specific perception. The problem is that people, around here on the East coast anyway, don't even know we exist. This would help get the word out.
Free.
Matthew
Free.
Matthew
-
SheilaGardner
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:14 pm
The Future of Our Sport
First saw a hg'er at an air show when I was 10 - got into it when I
graduated from college and was earning my own bucks. You just never
know. I know Janet, Brian, Rick Holtz and probably many others
introduced a lot of kids to hg'ing through classes they were teaching
(incorporating via science, math, etc). Just agreeing about the seed
being planted. Sheila
On Aug 16, 2005, at 8:21 PM, David Bodner wrote:
>
> On Aug 16, 2005, at 5:26 PM, jimrooney wrote:
>
> Quote:
>
> BTW... if you think your normal... go talk to someone and tell them
> you run off mountains for fun. I got news for you... you're a
> freak... we all are. We're not looking for normal people, we're
> looking for freaks.
> (end of quote)
>
>
>
> I kind of agree with Jim. The general population isn't a target-
> rich environment. Broad-based advertising to reach the 1 in 1,000
> that might think about hanggliding would end up being mondo-
> expensive, especially on a per-freak basis. Still, I keep meaning
> to look up how to get ourselves in the Post's Weekend section and
> the City Paper's Activities (or whatever) section alongside the
> curling club and the table tennis club. It wouldn't be terribly
> effective, but it should be free. I also like the idea of painting
> our URL on High Rock.
> BTW, I was at the kite festival a couple of years ago, and we
> handed out a couple hundred flyers to a lot of seemingly excited
> prospects. I heard not one 10% off coupon got redeemed. Bummed me
> out.
>
> Flying in public is probably going to be our best long-term
> advertising: Kitty Hawk, the sky gods landing on the beach, etc. A
> seed is planted in some 6-year old's mind that doesn't bear fruit
> for 15 or 20 years. We just have to hang on until then. And I
> think we will.
>
> I'm not too worried about the long-term diminution in the number of
> manufacturers. It's inevitable in any maturing industry. Look at
> the number of auto manufacturers in 1905 versus 2005. It'll happen
> in paragliding too.
>
>
>
>
> David Bodner
> d.bodner@verizon.net (d.bodner@verizon.net)
> (703) 516-7101
> (703) 946-0123 cell
> KI4AFI
>
>
graduated from college and was earning my own bucks. You just never
know. I know Janet, Brian, Rick Holtz and probably many others
introduced a lot of kids to hg'ing through classes they were teaching
(incorporating via science, math, etc). Just agreeing about the seed
being planted. Sheila
On Aug 16, 2005, at 8:21 PM, David Bodner wrote:
>
> On Aug 16, 2005, at 5:26 PM, jimrooney wrote:
>
> Quote:
>
> BTW... if you think your normal... go talk to someone and tell them
> you run off mountains for fun. I got news for you... you're a
> freak... we all are. We're not looking for normal people, we're
> looking for freaks.
> (end of quote)
>
>
>
> I kind of agree with Jim. The general population isn't a target-
> rich environment. Broad-based advertising to reach the 1 in 1,000
> that might think about hanggliding would end up being mondo-
> expensive, especially on a per-freak basis. Still, I keep meaning
> to look up how to get ourselves in the Post's Weekend section and
> the City Paper's Activities (or whatever) section alongside the
> curling club and the table tennis club. It wouldn't be terribly
> effective, but it should be free. I also like the idea of painting
> our URL on High Rock.
> BTW, I was at the kite festival a couple of years ago, and we
> handed out a couple hundred flyers to a lot of seemingly excited
> prospects. I heard not one 10% off coupon got redeemed. Bummed me
> out.
>
> Flying in public is probably going to be our best long-term
> advertising: Kitty Hawk, the sky gods landing on the beach, etc. A
> seed is planted in some 6-year old's mind that doesn't bear fruit
> for 15 or 20 years. We just have to hang on until then. And I
> think we will.
>
> I'm not too worried about the long-term diminution in the number of
> manufacturers. It's inevitable in any maturing industry. Look at
> the number of auto manufacturers in 1905 versus 2005. It'll happen
> in paragliding too.
>
>
>
>
> David Bodner
> d.bodner@verizon.net (d.bodner@verizon.net)
> (703) 516-7101
> (703) 946-0123 cell
> KI4AFI
>
>
-
hang_pilot
- Posts: 662
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:13 pm
- Location: Tallahassee, FL
(Rooney) We don't have a problem getting people interested in the sport. We have a problem keeping them in it.
(Daniel) Yes, exactly! From a quick scan of http://www.ushga.org/ratings_last3years.asp, local instructors -- John, Rich, Steve and Sunny -- issued 8 Hang I's in the last 12 months. Compare that with the #of first-day lessons they taught during that time and you get an idea of the high training attrition rate.
It takes persistence and motivation to learn to hang glide or paraglide. Nothing is more motivating than flying itself, especially flying solo. With that in mind, I applaud John?s idea of adding Condor flights to his teaching program. He?ll probably have to teach 30 or student day lessons to cover the cost, though. So, if he doesn?t rush his order to Wills Wing, I?ll understand.
Once an up-and-coming pilot earns their II, they?re pretty visible and I try to keep up with them. I recently updated the H2/P2 Guide for the Care and Feeding of Observers and mailed copies to our foot launch instructors so they can give them to new II?s to help them with their continued development. However, H0 -> HI+ tend to fly under my radar. Motivation doesn?t have to be 100% self-generated. If we want to keep our sport viable by increasing participation, we need to make a concerted effort to take these new pilots under our wings.
(Rooney) How about helping John Middleton out with classes.
(Daniel) That?s what I?m talking about! ?or Richard, or Steve. Hmm, I just did this last weekend. It really is fun being around new pilots!
In the last 6 months, I only see 4 reports in Hangola of >/= H3/P3 pilots going to training hills. My memory is that we used to go more often. Am I wrong? Seems like we can do better. Your l&l skills will benefit of course and your flights will be inspiring. While you?re there, get contact info for students you chat with and reach out to them. Ditto for the discovery tandems at Highland and scooter tows at Blue Sky.
(Rooney) How about getting your instructor rating so you can really help at the training hill.
(Daniel) Kitty Hawk has an instructor clinic. I?ve thought about it. I?ll help arrange a local clinic if there?s demand. I?ll put up a survey, let me know.
(Rooney) How about finding a new training hill.
(Daniel) An easier thing might be to re-open a formerly closed site. I?ve recently discussed this with Allan Hobner who knows the history of our t-hills really well. I?ll have a list of closed sites by the fall meeting and will be asking for volunteer emissaries.
(Rooney) How about building a scooter tow.
(Daniel) Sounds like a good winter task for the Highland team. I understand the airport manager doesn?t want any static towing. Is that the only thing that keeps you guys out of the scoter tow business?
(Rooney) How about buying your next glider from an instructor rather than a buddy so your instructor can stay in business.
(Daniel) Every deal has two sides, consider selling your used equipment on consignment with an instructor.
If this discussion gives you a concrete idea of something you think we should do with club resources to promote the sport, please call/e-mail me or come to the next meeting (10/26) to suggest it.
(Daniel) Yes, exactly! From a quick scan of http://www.ushga.org/ratings_last3years.asp, local instructors -- John, Rich, Steve and Sunny -- issued 8 Hang I's in the last 12 months. Compare that with the #of first-day lessons they taught during that time and you get an idea of the high training attrition rate.
It takes persistence and motivation to learn to hang glide or paraglide. Nothing is more motivating than flying itself, especially flying solo. With that in mind, I applaud John?s idea of adding Condor flights to his teaching program. He?ll probably have to teach 30 or student day lessons to cover the cost, though. So, if he doesn?t rush his order to Wills Wing, I?ll understand.
Once an up-and-coming pilot earns their II, they?re pretty visible and I try to keep up with them. I recently updated the H2/P2 Guide for the Care and Feeding of Observers and mailed copies to our foot launch instructors so they can give them to new II?s to help them with their continued development. However, H0 -> HI+ tend to fly under my radar. Motivation doesn?t have to be 100% self-generated. If we want to keep our sport viable by increasing participation, we need to make a concerted effort to take these new pilots under our wings.
(Rooney) How about helping John Middleton out with classes.
(Daniel) That?s what I?m talking about! ?or Richard, or Steve. Hmm, I just did this last weekend. It really is fun being around new pilots!
In the last 6 months, I only see 4 reports in Hangola of >/= H3/P3 pilots going to training hills. My memory is that we used to go more often. Am I wrong? Seems like we can do better. Your l&l skills will benefit of course and your flights will be inspiring. While you?re there, get contact info for students you chat with and reach out to them. Ditto for the discovery tandems at Highland and scooter tows at Blue Sky.
(Rooney) How about getting your instructor rating so you can really help at the training hill.
(Daniel) Kitty Hawk has an instructor clinic. I?ve thought about it. I?ll help arrange a local clinic if there?s demand. I?ll put up a survey, let me know.
(Rooney) How about finding a new training hill.
(Daniel) An easier thing might be to re-open a formerly closed site. I?ve recently discussed this with Allan Hobner who knows the history of our t-hills really well. I?ll have a list of closed sites by the fall meeting and will be asking for volunteer emissaries.
(Rooney) How about building a scooter tow.
(Daniel) Sounds like a good winter task for the Highland team.
I understand the airport manager doesn?t want any static towing. Is that the only thing that keeps you guys out of the scoter tow business?(Rooney) How about buying your next glider from an instructor rather than a buddy so your instructor can stay in business.
(Daniel) Every deal has two sides, consider selling your used equipment on consignment with an instructor.
If this discussion gives you a concrete idea of something you think we should do with club resources to promote the sport, please call/e-mail me or come to the next meeting (10/26) to suggest it.
There's been a lot of talk about how difficult it is to become a HG/PG pilot, how much perseverance it takes, etc. That's all true...but it takes no less to become a good whitewater kayaker or a good rock climber. Granted, you can be bad at these sports and just float on easy rivers or climb 4.0 routes...but to be good at any sport requires (in my opinion) an equal amount of hard work, sacrifice, etc.
So this isn't much of an argument to me. That leaves...
- money (definitely a big barrier)
- places to do it (another big barrier)
- (mis)perception that it's suicidal
...which might be addressed by...
- club-owned gliders (to let people use 'til they're hooked?)
- find more training hills, acquire more sites (I know---not easy)
- educate people about the sport's (comparative) safety
Scott
So this isn't much of an argument to me. That leaves...
- money (definitely a big barrier)
- places to do it (another big barrier)
- (mis)perception that it's suicidal
...which might be addressed by...
- club-owned gliders (to let people use 'til they're hooked?)
- find more training hills, acquire more sites (I know---not easy)
- educate people about the sport's (comparative) safety
Scott
-
batmanh3
> Granted, you can be bad at these sports and just float on easy rivers or climb 4.0 routes
Uh... that "little difference" makes all the difference in the world. Imagine if all kyakers had to start in rapids. How many people would take it up? If it wasn't easy to be bad at those sports, there would be far fewer people in them. It's kinda THE reason.
Cuz, ya know, being really good at Ping Pong takes a lot of perseverance and sacrifice.
Come on, you've got to be kidding me.
Uh... that "little difference" makes all the difference in the world. Imagine if all kyakers had to start in rapids. How many people would take it up? If it wasn't easy to be bad at those sports, there would be far fewer people in them. It's kinda THE reason.
Cuz, ya know, being really good at Ping Pong takes a lot of perseverance and sacrifice.
Come on, you've got to be kidding me.