Salisbury Airspace

Post by **Matthew** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:58 am

From Joe Gregor, USHGA Region 9 Examiner and Air Force Colonel

It seems that people are flying OVER Salisbury thinking it's okay. It is not. A strict reading of Part 103 says that you can fly over Class D, but not over Class E defined for an airport. While this makes little sense (why should you be able to fly OVER Dover AFB, but not over a small area 5 miles to the south?) that is the way the regs are currently written. You can play this game in many areas, if you like; just don't sink out in the process. Unfortunately, Salisbury has clearly depicted Class E (dashed magenta) as well as Class D around the airport. There is no cover in the regs for a flight over Salisbury "within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E defined for an airport". Prior permission from ATC is required to legally do such a thing. Ignore the regs often enough, and someone at the FAA will eventually be led to discover the mistake made in 1991 when they ammended the Class E restriction, and drive them to change Part 103 to potentially restrict us even further.

Salisbury is clearly an impediment to making a long XC. Tough. So are large swamps, seas of trees, and large bodies of water. Consider it a handicap of the local terrain. Any XC accomplished by taking advantages like fudging on airspace restrictions cannot really be compared against those made by pilots who are handicapped by following the rules.

-- Joe G.

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:42 pm

As a rule, I steer well clear of any kind of airport that has a tower, but I'm a little confused about this post since it seems rather absolute. If I understand it correctly, this means any E "attached" to an airport simply cannot be entered or overflown at ANY altitude without prior ATC clearance? On sectionals this type of E is sometimes designated SURF/700 (+-) which I thought means it has a ceiling.

Enquiring knucklehead wants to know...

marc

stevek · Post by **stevek** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:29 pm

Flying Lobster wrote:As a rule, I steer well clear of any kind of airport that has a tower, but I'm a little confused about this post since it seems rather absolute. If I understand it correctly, this means any E "attached" to an airport simply cannot be entered or overflown at ANY altitude without prior ATC clearance? On sectionals this type of E is sometimes designated SURF/700 (+-) which I thought means it has a ceiling.

Enquiring knucklehead wants to know...

marc

Dashed magenta lines only. Like the ones over the HR LZ that shows a HG symbol in the middle of it. Figure that one out. You don't have to worry about the magenta veil.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:38 pm

Hmm...that's a funky depiction around Salisbury on the sectional---there is a "skinny" dashed line (Class D) and a "fat" dashed line (which I assume is the Class E?). Those "fat" magenta dashes don't appear much (if anywhere) else on the DC sectional. (Lesson: study the sectional carefully!)

Scott

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:40 pm

stevek wrote:Dashed magenta lines only. Like the ones over the HR LZ that shows a HG symbol in the middle of it. Figure that one out. You don't have to worry about the magenta veil.

Right---thought the ones over the HR LZ are different "fat" dashed magenta lines than the ones over Salisbury. Gee, how many different "fat" dashed magenta lines are there?

Scott

batmanh3 · Post by **batmanh3** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:58 pm

I'm confused. According to FAA:

1.) Controlled airspace is a generic term that covers Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E airspace areas

2.) Controlled airspace is defined as: An airspace of defined dimensions within which ATC service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace classification.

3.) There are Class E airspace areas that serve as extensions to Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas designated for an airport. Such airspace provides controlled airspace to contain standard instrument approach procedures without imposing a communications requirement on pilots operating under VFR.

I could be horribly wrong, but as we are operating under VFR flight (as opposed to Special VFR or IFR), there are no entry requirements into Class E airspace, and no requirement for prior 2-way communications in Class E airspace, wouldn't traversing the area over Salisbury be acceptable as long as you do not violate the Class D airspace from surface to 2500' AGL? Obviously you are taking a risk that you could sink out and break the 2500' hard deck, but I would of made the same mistake as I was under the belief that the only primary difference between Class E & Class G airspace was the visibility and separation from cloud requirement.

batmanh3 · Post by **batmanh3** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:16 pm

I stand corrected. I just read FAR 103 and therein lies the caveat. Under normal aviation, there is no entry or communication requirement in Class E airspace. We as Ultralight aircraft fall under the following:

103.17 Operations in certain airspace.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.

Ultralight (i.e. hang gliders) are under a different set of rules than General Aviation.

Post by **hang_pilot** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:19 pm

Thanks, Chris. I believe that's what Joe is correctly pointing out.

~Daniel

-----Original Message-----
From: batmanh3 [mailto:batmanh3@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 3:16 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Salisbury Airspace

I stand corrected. I just read FAR 103 and therein lies the caveat.
Under normal aviation, there is no entry or communication requirement in
Class E airspace. We as Ultralight aircraft fall under the following:

103.17 Operations in certain airspace.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B,
Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the
surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that
person has prior authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction
over that airspace.

Ultralight (i.e. hang gliders) are under a different set of rules than
General Aviation.Batman

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batmanh3 · Post by **batmanh3** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:26 pm

You can thank the Federal Government for funding the last 90 minutes of FAA / FAR research. I'm sure they will be proud of my findings!

batmanh3 · Post by **batmanh3** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:32 pm

This could possibly be remedied by contacting SBY with a expected window of arrival and see if they give you permission to transition thru their airspace. The worst thing they could say is no.

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:11 pm

Hi (this note is from Lauren, not Paul),
????The discussion on airspace is interesting, and may end up being illuminating, as well.?Paul and I?have spent much of the day online trying to figure out exactly what IS correct. While?I will let Paul speak mainly in his own defense I would like to?say that he talked to?several very experienced pilots before?his flight who believed the path he intended to fly would be legal, and he certainly never intended to bust any airspace. However, to infer he is somehow "cheating" on his XC flights is ridiculous. This was a recreational flight we took for our own pleasure. Of course we will strive to follow all rules but personal slams seem unnecessary.?????
????????But as a more practical (and hopefully less sensitive) matter, yeesh, do you need to get into a glider?: To the west of Salisbury is the MOA? (OK, the restricted airspace R-4006)?. I called for the hours of operation today. Usually, weekdays from 8 until 5 the?MOA exists. However, on weekends, usually it doesn't. If I had known this I might well have been able to continue my own flight last Saturday. Apparently Curt Warren figured this out the one time he flew XC from Highland (for 70 some miles), but it seems I am slower to learn. Even on weekends (and certainly any other time), you should call to check to make sure that the airspace has indeed become inactive. The number to call (this is Patuxent approach) is 301-342-5956.
????Besides this, the airspace to the east of Salisbury has the same caveat; that you should check the NOTAMS to see when the airspace is active. So?I need to check this out next. Maybe we can fly there regularly, as well.
????This?discussion is?good; it has prodded me into action. It will make it easier for me to fly south. Without cheating, thank you very much. Not that cheating ever had anything to do with it.
????BTW, another warning. Both Laurel and Bennett airports (I flew right over Bennett --? these were the pilots who befriended me) are dedicated to sky divers. Sky divers are not likely to hit you once they have deployed their parachutes, but beforehand, when they are in free fall, they might well. The tiny purple (oh, MAGENTA, pardon me) circles should be avoided. These guys often fly to 10,000 feet. They deploy by 2500. This is usually over the airport. Stay clear of these areas. Call if you have questions.
Lauren

stevek · Post by **stevek** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:47 pm

Lauren may be right that the E extensions to the Salisbury D are only active at certain (hopefully infrequent) times. I suspect that explains the apparent HR anomaly. the class E extension there is for IFR approaches so presumably it is only active in IFR conditions when we are not flying.

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:14 am

Hmmm, this makes it even more confusing to me.

Reading the regs above doesn't seem to reveal that surface E is a kind of restricted airspace which can be turned on or off. I'm wondering if whether it is "on or off" has to do with whether or not the tower is actually active--though it seems likely the weekends would be a period of high activity.

We have an untowered field up here with surface E that has its IFR traffic handled by a class B airport 60 miles away. In other words, it has ATC even though it doesn't actually have a tower.

Oh, we don't think Paul cheated--except maybe by buying a rigid and wasting us flexies.

marc

Danny Brotto · Post by **Danny Brotto** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:11 am

Steve K. is correct about the Class E that covers part of HR. That cutout is there for power traffic during IFR conditions and is active then.

Talk to Natalie Kramer (Kurt's wife) about this. She works ATC (Air Traffic Control) at Washington County tower. This is how she explained it to me.

Danny Brotto

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:29 am

The premise that Steve and Danny mentioned (Class E extensions are only in effect during IFR conditions) is one of the reasons I felt comfortable transiting the corner of one of these areas during my recent flight. Ric N. is one of the experienced pilots who agreed with me on this and who has also used this same tactic on more than one occasion.

It's interesting that Natalie Kramer believes this to be true. I think that many Air Traffic Controllers might also agree and therefore, as a practical matter that's how it works. However, based on Joe's research and conversations with higher authorites within the FAA (and a strict reading of the specific regs), I don't see anything that mentions Class E turning off or on based on weather conditions.

Another point is the High Rock issue, I understand what Joe is saying about having prior approval due to Natalie being aware of our operation but I strongly suspect the reason no one ever says anything is that the ATC people (like Danny mentioned) don't consider it an an issue.

Paul

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:18 am

Errr...but ATC could still be active on a perfectly clear VFR conditions day, no? (I'm not "taking sides"--just trying to correctly understand the regs).

marc

Post by **Matthew** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:46 am

More from Joe Gregor, who is not on the Forum yet...

I assure you that I studied this issue, quite extensively, before I formed an
opinion. Mine was a good-faith effort to understand what was actually intended,
without bias for the way we might want things to be. I have extensive
documentation obtained from the FAA Library, the FAA archives at UMCP McKeldin
Library, and the NASM Library, all relating to the interpretation of this rule.
I have such opinions from officials and airspace experts as could be discretly
obtained without exposing the community to unwanted scrutiny. I've determined
what that reg means to the best of anyone's abilites I think - short of asking
the FAA to give us a direct and specific ruling.

Now, you can opinion-shop all you want - this is after all a time honored
Washington area tradition - but the only opinion that really matters here is the
one rendered by the authorities responsible for creating and applying these
regs. I've gone further than anyone I know toward determining just what that
opinion might be. Perhaps we should just ask for a ruling and resolve the issue
once and for all. I could be wrong. It would be great if I was wrong. I too
would love to be able to follow that next cloud street over Salisbury and
beyond.

And I agree, you should never intentionally fly within 500ft of cloud base, and
you should certainly not tell others this is a good thing to do. If at any time
you discover that you honestly mis-estimated your distance from the cloud (so
easy to do) you should immediatley proceed downwind and away as fast as
possible, and resolve not to make that same mistake again.

-- Joe

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:04 am

OK, I don't want to beat this thing to death but I just got off the phone with an Air Traffic Controller at the Salisbury Airport and got the following info.

The tower is open daily from 6:00 AM to 10:30 PM.

I told this controller that I flew an ultra light (Part 103) aircraft and was curious about transiting the airspace there if I did not have an aviation radio. He told me as long as I stayed above 2,500 feet agl I was free to do so. I then specifically asked about the Class E IFR extensions and suggested that it was my understanding that these extensions had no ceiling. He once again reiterated that as far as they were concerned if I stayed above 2,500 feet there was no problem.

Seems that common sense and logic may be in force in some areas of our government.

Paul

Post by **air_medal** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:20 pm

Me neither, but this is important stuff.

And I apologise if my earlier comments were viewed as an accusation that people are somehow cheating on their flights, as that was not my intent. I merely wanted to point out that a flight made by transiting an area cannot be directly compared with one that had to divert around that same area. Just as a flight made on a single surface glider cannot be directly compared with one made using a topless, or a rigid wing. The handicapping is different.

That said, we have had these airspace discussions numerous times in the past. I know of no ammendments to the regulations that would change their interpretation. I guess I was surprised and dismayed when I learned that people simply chose to ignore those findings in favor of more favorable opinions. This may have colored my previous posts. Sorry.

I think it is very cool that Salisbury Tower is willing to let us do this. We need a name and contact number for your controller, time and date for the conversation, so we can quote him as our justification if any issues arise in the future. I would not actually attempt a transit flight without such justification in my pocket.

See, I spoke with Natalie at Hagerstown about this very same issue earlier this morning. She told me that the Class E keyways, which the tower does not actually control (hint, hint), do not to the best of her knowledge change with the weather. They are always there.

After talking to some of her FSDO friends she also _strongly_ suggested that, if we choose to continue this discussion, we do so off-line from now on. We should count ourselves lucky that she is sympathetic to our cause.

-- Joe G.

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:45 pm

Boy, that really cleared things up nicely. Now I'm more confused than ever! Sounds like Clintonian "don't ask don't tell."

marc

Post by **breezyk1d** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:45 pm

1) I know that Joe G. knows about airspace, but he sure don't know about playin' pool. I wumped his a** last night.

2) Matthew - contrary to your club announcement last night, I am not going to marry a sugardaddy so that the CHGPA can buy LZ's. Period. I thought that was Christy's job? I only signed up to do registration at the Pulpit fly-in.

3) I let Matthew beat me at pool (though I gave him a good run for his money so that he'd think he'd beat me square) so that there are some observers left who will still throw me off. Though I may be getting so obnoxious that someone will have to make me a 3 soon.

<grin> -Linda

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:56 pm

In a message dated 7/28/2005 3:46:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, in_a_cloud@hotmail.com writes:

Now I'm more confused than ever! Sounds like Clintonian "don't ask don't tell."

Now you're complaining about Clinton? I thought you were the liberal's liberal.
?
Paul

Paul Tjaden · Post by **Paul Tjaden** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:40 pm

In a message dated 7/28/2005 12:21:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, air_medal@mac.com writes:

I think it is very cool that Salisbury Tower is willing to let us do this.? We need a name and contact number for your controller, time and date for the conversation, so we can quote him as our justification if any issues arise in the future.? I would not actually attempt a transit flight without such justification in my pocket.

I don't think it's a matter of them giving?anyone a special favor. I believe that it's just?what the ATC facility there considers to be correct. Don't get me wrong....I do understand that your interpretation of the regulation is correct, I just don't think that most ATC facilities consider their controlled air space to go beyond the ceiling of what ever Class of controlled airspace they are in charge of.
?
As far as name, date, and time, I called the Wicomico Regional Airport (Salisbury) this morning (7/28/'05) at about 9:30. I called the general number which is 410-548-4827 and asked to?speak with Air Traffic Control and was transferred. I don't know what the direct number is. I also (rather stupidly) didn't bother to obtain the controllers name. I guess that I also didn't want to seem too pushy and make it sound like I was trying to "get away" with something and needed his name so it could all be blamed on him in the future.
?
Sorry I don't have more.
?
Paul

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:43 pm

I'm afraid its too late, Paul. Last I heard two C130's where in orbit over SBY and assualt troops had parachuted in and taken over all operations. Bet that will make you fly more carefully next time, eh?

marc

Post by **mcelrah** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:37 am

On a related topic from the original post: isn't it an alternative
to call Pax River or Washington Center on the phone from the ground
and inquire whether R-4006 is "hot"? If it's not in use (say, on a
weekend), you can fly there, right? - Hugh

On 27 Jul 2005, at 15:16, batmanh3 wrote:

>
> I stand corrected. I just read FAR 103 and therein lies the
> caveat. Under normal aviation, there is no entry or communication
> requirement in Class E airspace. We as Ultralight aircraft fall
> under the following:
>
> 103.17 Operations in certain airspace.
> No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class
> B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of
> the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport
> unless that person has prior authorization from the ATC facility
> having jurisdiction over that airspace.
>
>
> Ultralight (i.e. hang gliders) are under a different set of rules
> than General Aviation.Batman
>

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