Sport Class Questions from Ron

Lauren Tjaden · Post by **Lauren Tjaden** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:29 am

Ron Gleason wrote me the following about the Sport Class. He would like input from other sport pilots. Contact me if you have input and?I will send you his email. Don't know that he would appreciate having it on the list. Here is our back and forth conversation:

(RG) I am writing looking for some input on the ?Sport Class? for USHGA competitions.? I am in charge of the rule book and a coupe of years ago was instrumental in getting the current, though incomplete, sporting class concept rolling and implemented.? Changes to the rule book can only be made at the fall BOD meeting, to be held in September or early October in NY this year.?
(LT) Thanks so much for getting the sport class rolling. The entries were minimal at FL Ridge, but the comp at Highland was a huge source of excitement and incentive for many pilots, new and old, ?to experience XC and competition in a less intimidating environment. Unbelievably positive.?I think that the bulk of USHGA members ARE recreational pilots who need outlets to compete and achieve in ways that are consistent with their skill levels and comfort zones. The sport class provides a means of striving for goals that might actually be attainable.
<<RG>>? Agreed and the hope is that more regional competition will be held.? There are many obstacles to holding a competition, having pilots attend is one, and there are other initiatives afoot that should help, i.e. ?Competition in a box? that includes everything a group needs to run a competition, except a PC and meet organizer!
(RG) A couple of questions for you (if you have the time);
????????? Should participants in the sporting class be allowed to accumulate NTSS points?
(LT) Sure. At least I should.

Seriously -- if the question is whether points should be awarded for Sport class comps -- I think the answer is no. It compares peaches to raspberries.

But I think your real question is,?should a "ringer" -- someone who is competing on the regular comp circuit -- be allowed to compete in the sport class? I will address this below.
?
<<RG>>? Bingo, right on with both replies.? The intent of the NTSS system is to rank pilots for International competition participation.? Therefore, IMO, NTSS points should not be awarded, rather a separate points systems is needed and someone to keep track of the rankings is needed.

????????? Should ?sport class? have it?s own ranking?? Should it be modeled after the NTSS system?

?

(LT) YES! People want to achieve, many of us are goal oriented. But to get a topless, plus a slick harness, and learn how to fly them -- against so many of the world's best pilots -- is hugely intimidating, to say the least. Nevertheless, we want to achieve, and also, to have our victories, even if they are small compared to the best pilot's achievements -- and to be recognized in some way. I think there should be a national sport pilot championships, and some qualification system, like maybe being the 1st or 2nd place finisher in a sanctioned sport meet (though this is all totally off the top of my head), but absolutely some kind of point and recognition system should be implemented.
?
<<RG>>? As we addressed above.? With respect to the ?National Sport Champion? should this be a winner of one meet, like the US National Champion, or should it be the pilot with the most accumulated points over the year, for say their top 2 or 3 competitions?? The original idea for the Sport Class was to ensure that every pilot takes off from the same location at the same time, or close, and fly a task that allows them to fly near or around the other competition classes.? If possible the same goal field would be used or the goal and a WP would/could be shared.

????????? Should pilots be able to switch between ?sport class? and the NTSS system?
?

(LT) I think these should be separate divisions, with no interchangeable points.? There is obviously little risk to anyone if a sport pilot decides to move up to the open flex division. However, depending on the rules, there could be a danger of a pilot moving DOWN to the sport class with an unfair advantage.
?????????? How do we deal with single surface versus king posted versus topless ?sport class??

?

(LT) OK, these are my ideas (are you starting to be sorry you asked???). I think that there should be two, and possibly three requirements for pilots who want to fly in the sport class (just my opinions, of course).

(1).?It should be restricted to king posted gliders. I think it gets too complex to divide it from there. Anyhow, most people who fly XC do not fly single surface gliders, except for the pros trying to break records.?I know that a Discus is faster than my Sport, just like a U 2 is. But I just want to compete against pilots who are somewhat matched to me in equipment and in skill -- like not Jonny in his Litespeed. It doesn't have to be perfect.
?
<<RG>>? Yes this would be simple but what about a handicapping system that allows anyone to fly SC as long they do not have NTSS ranking as stated above.? Single surface 150%, KP 125%, topless 90% rigid 75%.

(LT) (2) Professional pilots (IE, those that have profited from teaching hang gliding, selling hang gliders, etc) should not be allowed to compete in the sport division.
?
<<RG>>? Interesting, so this would eliminate _______.? I can live with the idea.
?

(LT) (3) And, possibly, those who have placed in the top half (again, this is just a number? I am throwing out) of a sanctioned USGHA meet should not be allowed to move down to compete in the sport class.
<<RG>>? OK, so anyone in the top 50% of the NTSS system in any year within the last 5 years is *not* eligible to fly in the sport class and anyone who has every been ranked in the top 10 of the NTSS system is not eligible to fly sport class.? What about the other end of the spectrum; at what point does a pilot *have* to leave the Sport Class?? If you win do you have to move up?? If you win 2 out of 3 years do you have to move up?
<<RG>>? Keep the ideas coming, do not be afraid ?

These are just a few of the questions we need to start asking.

?

(LT) Thanks Ron, I agree.

(RG) I firmly believe that the ?sport class? is an excellent and we need to promote moving forward.
(LT) I think it is actually REALLY important to the future of hang gliding. Thanks for letting me share my opinions
<<RG>>? I hope to be getting more opinions and putting together a proposal for the BOD, I will make sure you get a copy so you can comment. See you guys in Big Spring in a few weeks.

Lauren

?

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Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:24 am

Pretty interesting discussion! I'm interested in the Sport Class, as someone who can't see myself competing in "serious" comps, but would enjoy a more relaxed level of "non-serious" competition.

I think the Tennessee Treetoppers have a good thing going this year with their Team Challenge, which is why I want to go---the emphasis isn't on competition but experience. They also have a percentage system based on pilot ranking (H4s score 100% of distance flown, H3s with XC experience score 150% of distance flown, H3s with no XC experience score 200%.) I think this makes sense---in addition to the breakdown by glider type Ron mentioned above.

I was pretty depressed by the gradual decline of "citizen races" in whitewater slalom back when I did that a lot. In the 80s there were a lot of low-key races that welcomed people in low-performing boats, people without experience, etc., and they were a blast! But as focus in the sport shifted to producing Olympic-level racers, the low-key races disappeared, and all that was left were races you had to be almost-Olympic-level to survive. So I fully support any flying events with a focus on recreational pilots.

Scott

John Simon · Post by **John Simon** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:17 pm

Just a few quick thoughts... I flew the sport class out at Ridgely a few
weeks back. It is indeed a great way to improve and encourage and
invigorate pilots. I think, as you do it's a great way to promote our sport
and to build experience and community within. Not only is it a tremendously
fun event, but you can learn more about your skills and XC and flying during
a week than probably anywhere else. But there in also lies the rub...
Taking a week off is difficult for just about anyone. This is an
enormous impediment to sport class competition and all HG comps. Many will
have to deal with travel and accomodation issues as well and with all this
the committment is considerable. To that end, I'd say the biggest roadblock
is the need to have 6-7 days off. If we could arrange for more "mini" sport
comps and maybe full comps to occur we may have larger turnout. Once you
get people coming for these things, they'll come back because as you know,
it's too damn fun! Everyone has a tiny bit of competitiveness within, and
at a comp you are allowed to feed the hunger. It's addicting, challengin,
invigorating and fun on a number of levels.
Now, I dont' have to put these events on so it's easy for me to throw
these notions out there. I know there is a great deal of work involved for
each event. If someone could boil this thing down to a comp in a box
concept, or just vastly simplify it we'd be in a better position to move
forward and maybe get everyone flying together more in a friendly and fun
setting. This might be similar to the weekend ski races and motocross races
kids have that continue for a season and are held every weekend or every
month etc.
This is some hot air too, because I find it difficult even to take an
entire weekend off and devote it to HG. It's not that I don't want to but
it's usually work around the house or a social obligation or work that gets
me. Still I think a more frequent 2/3/4 day mini comp would be easier for
most to work into their schedule.

John

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:23 pm

Good points John---taking a week off is tough (I'll be doing that this fall). Seems to me like doing shorter events would be fine, as long as everyone accepts that a) there's a smaller window for good conditions (and if nobody flies, oh well! It's a good party!) and b) the event might be more of a shoestring affair, with less emphasis on all the bells and whistles of bigger comps.

Scott

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:51 pm

Very good discussion Lauren--nice of Ron to let you put this up here.

Most paragliding comps have long had a production serial class division, which has some similarities to the sport class. The key feature being that the equipment used is strictly "off the shelf" untweaked non-competition level gliders. There are alot of things you can do to tweak even pigstickers to improve their performance.

I believe the semantics of enforcing pilot qualifications will prove to be an impossible management task. However, by not awarding NTSS points, this would likely be a disincentive to most hot shot ringers from entering. Its always possible that a formerly unknown serial class pilot could cream everyone in that class after a while, but may not necessarily want to move up into the big leagues. I see nothing wrong with that--maybe peer pressure would need to be brought into play.

Now how about a single-surface only comp?

marc

heaviek · Post by **heaviek** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:31 am

Everyone has an opinion so I am going to throw one out there too.

To me, sport class is more about fun flying a task rather then a serious
competition. It is about lower stress, less pressure, and a more casual
atmosphere. It's about introducing new pilots to competition format, and it
is about providing a lower intensity format for fellas who want to take it
easy.

With a focus on fun task flying something like NTSS points belong NOWHERE
near this class. Neither does restrictions or otherwise elitist attitudes
about eligibility. A sport class is not about all out performance (it's
about SPORT) so it shouldn't matter what kind of flying a pilot does the
other 360 days a year. Any sport class competitor should embrace the
opportunity to fly with much higher caliber pilots on similar performance
equipment. Any old dumb fart can follow someone else's good
decisions...this is your chance to not get left in the dust on glide and
learn a thing or two. An aspiring sport pilot would double their bang for
the buck given the opportunity to fly with better pilots.

There doesn't seem to be anywhere near the demand (yet) to justify further
subdividing past open class, sport class, and rigid.

Take for an example Bo Hagglewood. Say his wrist doesn't rehab to the point
where he can safely fly an open class glider. Would establishing a sport
class rule set that barred a pilot like him be very appropriate?

The competitive nature of men will keep most of the top pilots in the Open
Class. Any random cross over should be viewed as a blessing not a
competitive injustice.

Kev C

rancerupp · Post by **rancerupp** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:27 am

IMO...

No topless, no rigid, not NTSS points awarded.

Allow ANY compeditor. Kevin has a good point, we could learn much from them.

Some 3-4 day events might be good with maybe saving the week long events till the end of the season.

Only handicap maybe giving single surface a little extra. Maybe even require the 'professionals' to fly in the single surface class?

Good ideas!

Rance

Lauren Tjaden · Post by **Lauren Tjaden** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:08 pm

Kevin is both one of the most outstanding pilots and all around nice guys in the sport of hang gliding. He helps any of us in need -- which we frequently are -- and has articulate, smart opinions. But?I disagree?with some of his opinions on the sport class.
I?think anyone who had to fly against Bo in the Sport class would feel they had a huge injustice against them. Bo's arm might not be quite right, but his brain is still functioning, and damn well. He is a national champion. Maybe a PAST national champ, who suffered a bad accident (and we all know I love Bo) but hey, he still flies better than almost anyone.
The sport class IS about winning. Yes, it is about learning, but it it is also about competition. Because it is not a comp of the best against the best means little. The amateur division of the horse shows are always at least as fierce as those of those pros. The pros want to win (of course) but in a way, it is business, too. They have the best horses. They know losing is part of the game. I will tell you, as shallow as it was, I wanted?to win -- like LOTS-- at Florida Ridge. Didn't matter that I didn't have to beat Paris or Curt or Jonny. I wanted to win against my minuscule class. I wanted to win against my peers.
Of course I?want fly with the best pilots. But at any comp, you get to fly with them anyhow -- at least for the little bit before they race away from you. Anyhow, I guess my point is that the sport class pilots do not want to feel that they are up against unfair competition.
Maybe I am wrong. But hey,?I have my asshole -- I mean, my opinion?-- ?too.
Lauren

Kevin <heaviek@yahoo.com> wrote:

Everyone has an opinion so I am going to throw one out there too.

To me, sport class is more about fun flying a task rather then a serious
competition. It is about lower stress, less pressure, and a more casual
atmosphere. It's about introducing new pilots to competition format, and it
is about providing a lower intensity format for fellas who want to take it
easy.

With a focus on fun task flying something like NTSS points belong NOWHERE
near this class. Neither does restrictions or otherwise elitist attitudes
about eligibility. A sport class is not about all out performance (it's
about SPORT) so it shouldn't matter what kind of flying a pilot does the
other 360 days a year. Any sport class competitor should embrace the
opportunity to fly with much higher caliber pilots on similar performance
equipment. Any old dumb fart can follow someone else's good
decisions...this is your chance to not get left in the dust on glide and
learn a thing or two. An aspiring sport pilot would double their bang for
the buck given the opportunity to fly with better pilots.

There doesn't seem to be anywhere near the demand (yet) to justify further
subdividing past open class, sport class, and rigid.

Take for an example Bo Hagglewood. Say his wrist doesn't rehab to the point
where he can safely fly an open class glider. Would establishing a sport
class rule set that barred a pilot like him be very appropriate?

The competitive nature of men will keep most of the top pilots in the Open
Class. Any random cross over should be viewed as a blessing not a
competitive injustice.

Kev C

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Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:20 pm

The Lauren Class??

marc

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:02 am

OK--so to make this a fair and truly novice racing class, you would need the following requirements:

1. No more than 50 miles previous xc best
2. No more than 200 hours net airtime.
3. Unmodified, kingposted glider only.
4. No previous participation in any "pro-class" category 1 or 2 NTSS meet (though this gets a little fuzzy when you consider certain pilots, ahem, spend tremendous amounts of time flying at certain airparks, ahem, with these kinds of pilots, ahem, because they have certain advantages, ahem, that most other sport class pilots, ahem, don't have, cough cough).

Surprise! Hardly anybody enters!!

marc

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:49 am

The simpler the better.

If the idea is to have fun and to introduce people to the basics of a comp, then we need to keep it just that... basic. Hit the big stuff and don't get wrapped up in the details.

One of the beauties of the Sport class we had was the lack of start clocks... pilots just went when they felt it was right. This helped pilots that could make goal get there, rather than playing the "start clock game" and decking it.

I wonder if the competitive nature of pilots will keep the ringers out. I lean towards it will keep them out. I doubt you're going to see Bo in the sport class.

Clueless question here... Are there H4's out there that would compete in a sport class? It seems like simply limiting things to H3 would knock out any would-be ringers. Aren't NTSS comps H4 only? So sport would be "anyone that doesn't qualify for NTSS comps".

Maybe there are a bunch of H4s that would like a sport class though? If so, maybe they're the only ones that need fancier rules.

I don't think anyone's worried about someone like Bo entering a sport comp. It's the other end of the spectrum that would be the "ringer". Someone that won't do exceptionally well in an NTSS comp, but can kick butt in a sport class.

I'm not a fan of allowing people with NTSS comp experience into a sport class... Isn't the idea of a sport class to introduce people to how a comp works? Do people that have been in NTSS comps really need an introduction to how a comp works?

It could be handled the way we allow H3 into an NTSS comp... H4s allowed into the sport class "with meet directors approval" ;)

I wouldn't get wrapped up in points. Going down the road of national points seems like it would start the bickering process. Without it, the bickering would be limited to local issues. Each comp is a comp against the pilots that show up, not the entire country. "I won the ___ comp". Done. Simple. If you want to compete with the H3s in California, go to California. $.02

An example of how eliminating national points helps simplify things is the "how long" question. Without having to be fair to the entire country, local sites can have comps on the weekend, in the middle of the week, over a couple weekends... it doesn't matter. The issue doesn't go away, but it becomes local.

If I had to pick the single roadblock to putting on a comp, from the perspective of the people hosting the comp, it's scoring the damn thing. What a freakin pain in the butt! Keep that simple and you make hosting a comp far easier (and thus more likely to happen). It's the only thing that we don't normally do to some extent. Hosting pilots, towing gliders, even picking tasks (xc pilots do that all the time) is done on a daily basis... it's just more intense at a comp. Scoring is the voodo.

The most valuable stuff I saw in the sport class...

#1... learning to fly a GPS task. Just running around in golf carts with gps's explained most of it for me. Before doing that, it was voodo. After that it made sense.

#2... flying against someone who had to fly the same task. The open distance stuff we do on a daily basis isn't the same as racing someone to goal.

#3... seing that comps aren't actually that complex. "Hey, I can do this!.. hell, I can do this pretty well."

Jim

Lauren Tjaden · Post by **Lauren Tjaden** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:45 am

Thanks for all the response on the Sport class. But I never wanted to become a go-between for Ron and pilots in the club. What I said in my original post was that?I would privately send Ron Gleason's email address to any pilots with opinions?about how exactly the sport class should be written into the rule books. I have so far forwarded all mail to Ron, but many of the emails? on the list have simply turned into general discussion. General discussion is GREAT and should continue, but Jim's email is the last?I will forward to Ron. Let me know off list if you would like his address and you may give your input directly to him. Thanks,
Lauren

jimrooney <jimrooney@gmail.com> wrote:

The simpler the better.

If the idea is to have fun and to introduce people to the basics of a comp, then we need to keep it just that... basic. Hit the big stuff and don't get wrapped up in the details.

One of the beauties of the Sport class we had was the lack of start clocks... pilots just went when they felt it was right. This helped pilots that could make goal get there, rather than playing the "start clock game" and decking it.

I wonder if the competitive nature of pilots will keep the ringers out. I lean towards it will keep them out. I doubt you're going to see Bo in the sport class.

Clueless question here... Are there H4's out there that would compete in a sport class? It seems like simply limiting things to H3 would knock out any would-be ringers. Aren't NTSS comps H4 only? So sport would be "anyone that doesn't qualify for NTSS comps".

Maybe there are a bunch of H4s that would like a sport class though? If so, maybe they're the only ones that need fancier rules.

I don't think anyone's worried about someone like Bo entering a sport comp. It's the other end of the spectrum that would be the "ringer". Someone that won't do exceptionally well in an NTSS comp, but can kick butt in a sport class.

I'm not a fan of allowing people with NTSS comp experience into a sport class... Isn't the idea of a sport class to introduce people to how a comp works? Do people that have been in NTSS comps really need an introduction to how a comp works?

It could be handled the way we allow H3 into an NTSS comp... H4s allowed into the sport class "with meet directors approval"

I wouldn't get wrapped up in points. Going down the road of national points seems like it would start the bickering process. Without it, the bickering would be limited to local issues. Each comp is a comp against the pilots that show up, not the entire country. "I won the ___ comp". Done. Simple. If you want to compete with the H3s in California, go to California. $.02

An example of how eliminating national points helps simplify things is the "how long" question. Without having to be fair to the entire country, local sites can have comps on the weekend, in the middle of the week, over a couple weekends... it doesn't matter. The issue doesn't go away, but it becomes local.

If I had to pick the single roadblock to putting on a comp, from the perspective of the people hosting the comp, it's scoring the damn thing. What a freakin pain in the butt! Keep that simple and you make hosting a comp far easier (and thus more likely to happen). It's the only thing that we don't normally do to some extent. Hosting pilots, towing gliders, even picking tasks (xc pilots do that all the time) is done on a daily basis... it's just more intense at a comp. Scoring is the voodo.

The most valuable stuff I saw in the sport class...

#1... learning to fly a GPS task. Just running around in golf carts with gps's explained most of it for me. Before doing that, it was voodo. After that it made sense.

#2... flying against someone who had to fly the same task. The open distance stuff we do on a daily basis isn't the same as racing someone to goal.

#3... seing that comps aren't actually that complex. "Hey, I can do this!.. hell, I can do this pretty well."

Jim

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

Lauren Tjaden · Post by **Lauren Tjaden** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:58 am

jimrooney <jimrooney@gmail.com> wrote:

Clueless question here... Are there H4's out there that would compete in a sport class? It seems like simply limiting things to H3 would knock out any would-be ringers. Aren't NTSS comps H4 only? So sport would be "anyone that doesn't qualify for NTSS comps".
From Lauren -- Yes, I am a hang 4, and was when I competed in Florida Ridge in the sport class (my first comp, &?I had never flown longer than 25 miles).?Danny (who competed at Highland) is at least a 4, maybe a 5. I know?a woman in California (from the Fifi list) who is also a 4 -- but for personal reasons chooses to fly a kingposted glider, who is very excited about the sport class. I am not sure about any others offhand.

From Jim -- Maybe there are a bunch of H4s that would like a sport class though? If so, maybe they're the only ones that need fancier rules.
From Lauren -- I guess I'm not sure what that means.
Lauren

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:09 am

Hey Lauren---just forward the web address to this forum page to Ron---I'm sure he'd be interested in reading the general discussion!
---

Jim and others---you made some good points about learning to fly GPS tasks. As of today, is there any way to learn this stuff other than going to a meet? In other words, is any of this stuff actually written down anywhere? Or is it one of those "oral traditions" only passed down through pilots at comps?
---

Finally, see my comment above---unless I'm missing something, the Tennessee Treetoppers appear to be putting on just the type of event we're talking about with their Team Challenge. Anyone can enter, but H3s with no XC experience score 200% of miles flown...while experienced XC-H4s score 50% or 75%. Seems like a reasonable system to me.

Scott

Post by **Matthew** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:55 am

Fun Fly-Ins, such as the Annual Mcconnelsburg Fly-In, AKA Pulpit Fly-In, have comp directors who set up handicapping systems. The handicapping system is the sole discretion of the comp director at th Pulpit fly-In. But handicapping is the way to even the playing field in a Sport Class. For example, people who have never gone XC or have never gone more than 25 miles get one handicap, pilots who have gone between 25 and 60 miles receive another handicap and pilots who have flown over 60 miles receive yet another handicap. Likewise, additional handicaps may be made according to glider type-- single surface adds a factor, non-VG double surface another factor, VG kingposted--yet another and so on for topless and rigid gliders. It may sound complicated, but it's really just two factors that are multiplied or added into someone's score. Thus, anyone would be able to compete in the sport class. And isn't this done all of the time anyway at lots of fun comps all over the country?????

Matthew

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:45 pm

Setting up a gps course and running around the field with golf carts seemed to cover it. Maybe we'll setup a gps day at Highland or something. Frankly I think it was more useful to do it on the ground anyway... you could ask "hey!, why's this doing that?" and get an answer on the spot.

Post by **hang_pilot** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:18 pm

Hi, Lauren-

Sorry to be one of the people who just barfed out a response without reading your post as to which direction to turn my head!

Congrats on your awesome flight!

Daniel

-----Original Message-----
From: Lauren Tjaden [mailto:giddyupandglide@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:45 AM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Re: Sport Class Questions from Ron

Thanks for all the response on the Sport class. But I never wanted to become a go-between for Ron and pilots in the club. What I said in my original post was that I would privately send Ron Gleason's email address to any pilots with opinions about how exactly the sport class should be written into the rule books. I have so far forwarded all mail to Ron, but many of the emails on the list have simply turned into general discussion. General discussion is GREAT and should continue, but Jim's email is the last I will forward to Ron. Let me know off list if you would like his address and you may give your input directly to him. Thanks,
Lauren

jimrooney <jimrooney@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:

The simpler the better.

If the idea is to have fun and to introduce people to the basics of a comp, then we need to keep it just that... basic. Hit the big stuff and don't get wrapped up in the details.

One of the beauties of the Sport class we had was the lack of start clocks... pilots just went when they felt it was right. This helped pilots that could make goal get there, rather than playing the "start clock game" and decking it.

I wonder if the competitive nature of pilots will keep the ringers out. I lean towards it will keep them out. I doubt you're going to see Bo in the sport class.

Clueless question here... Are there H4's out there that would compete in a sport class? It seems like simply limiting things to H3 would knock out any would-be ringers. Aren't NTSS comps H4 only? So sport would be "anyone that doesn't qualify for NTSS comps".

Maybe there are a bunch of H4s that would like a sport class though? If so, maybe they're the only ones that need fancier rules.

I don't think anyone's worried about someone like Bo entering a sport comp. It's the other end of the spectrum that would be the "ringer". Someone that won't do exceptionally well in an NTSS comp, but can kick butt in a sport class.

I'm not a fan of allowing people with NTSS comp experience into a sport class... Isn't the idea of a sport class to introduce people to how a comp works? Do people that have been in NTSS comps really need an introduction to how a comp works?

It could be handled the way we allow H3 into an NTSS comp... H4s allowed into the sport class "with meet directors approval"

I wouldn't get wrapped up in points. Going down the road of national points seems like it would start the bickering process. Without it, the bickering would be limited to local issues. Each comp is a comp against the pilots that show up, not the entire country. "I won the ___ comp". Done. Simple. If you want to compete with the H3s in California, go to California. $.02

An example of how eliminating national points helps simplify things is the "how long" question. Without having to be fair to the entire country, local sites can have comps on the weekend, in the middle of the week, over a couple weekends... it doesn't matter. The issue doesn't go away, but it becomes local.

If I had to pick the single roadblock to putting on a comp, from the perspective of the people hosting the comp, it's scoring the damn thing. What a freakin pain in the butt! Keep that simple and you make hosting a comp far easier (and thus more likely to happen). It's the only thing that we don't normally do to some extent. Hosting pilots, towing gliders, even picking tasks (xc pilots do that all the time) is done on a daily basis... it's just more intense at a comp. Scoring is the voodo.

The most valuable stuff I saw in the sport class...

#1... learning to fly a GPS task. Just running around in golf carts with gps's explained most of it for me. Before doing that, it was voodo. After that it made sense.

#2... flying against someone who had to fly the same task. The open distance stuff we do on a daily basis isn't the same as racing someone to goal.

#3... seing that comps aren't actually that complex. "Hey, I can do this!.. hell, I can do this pretty well."

Jim

(end of quote)

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Lauren Tjaden · Post by **Lauren Tjaden** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:09 pm

Daniel,
Oh favored friend, you have done nothing wrong.
But hey,?club members, I got this note from Ron. He says to publish his email address. And to send him info about the list so he can check the thread. Poor guy -- no good deed goes unpunished. May the lift be with him! Here's?his address: xcflying@earthlink.net (xcflying@earthlink.net)
Lauren

"Broxterman.Daniel" <Daniel.Broxterman@suntrust.com> wrote:

Hi, Lauren-

Sorry to be one of the people who just barfed out a response without reading your post as to which direction to turn my head!

Congrats on your awesome flight!

Daniel

-----Original Message-----
From: Lauren Tjaden [mailto:giddyupandglide@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:45 AM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Re: Sport Class Questions from Ron

Thanks for all the response on the Sport class. But I never wanted to become a go-between for Ron and pilots in the club. What I said in my original post was that I would privately send Ron Gleason's email address to any pilots with opinions about how exactly the sport class should be written into the rule books. I have so far forwarded all mail to Ron, but many of the emails on the list have simply turned into general discussion. General discussion is GREAT and should continue, but Jim's email is the last I will forward to Ron. Let me know off list if you would like his address and you may give your input directly to him. Thanks,
Lauren

jimrooney wrote:
Quote:

The simpler the better.

If the idea is to have fun and to introduce people to the basics of a comp, then we need to keep it just that... basic. Hit the big stuff and don't get wrapped up in the details.

One of the beauties of the Sport class we had was the lack of start clocks... pilots just went when they felt it was right. This helped pilots that could make goal get there, rather than playing the "start clock game" and decking it.

I wonder if the competitive nature of pilots will keep the ringers out. I lean towards it will keep them out. I doubt you're going to see Bo in the sport class.

Clueless question here... Are there H4's out there that would compete in a sport class? It seems like simply limiting things to H3 would knock out any would-be ringers. Aren't NTSS comps H4 only? So sport would be "anyone that doesn't qualify for NTSS comps".

Maybe there are a bunch of H4s that would like a sport class though? If so, maybe they're the only ones that need fancier rules.

I don't think anyone's worried about someone like Bo entering a sport comp. It's the other end of the spectrum that would be the "ringer". Someone that won't do exceptionally well in an NTSS comp, but can kick butt in a sport class.

I'm not a fan of allowing people with NTSS comp experience into a sport class... Isn't the idea of a sport class to introduce people to how a comp works? Do people that have been in NTSS comps really need an introduction to how a comp works?

It could be handled the way we allow H3 into an NTSS comp... H4s allowed into the sport class "with meet directors approval"

I wouldn't get wrapped up in points. Going down the road of national points seems like it would start the bickering process. Without it, the bickering would be limited to local issues. Each comp is a comp against the pilots that show up, not the entire country. "I won the ___ comp". Done. Simple. If you want to compete with the H3s in California, go to California. $.02

An example of how eliminating national points helps simplify things is the "how long" question. Without having to be fair to the entire country, local sites can have comps on the weekend, in the middle of the week, over a couple weekends... it doesn't matter. The issue doesn't go away, but it becomes local.

If I had to pick the single roadblock to putting on a comp, from the perspective of the people hosting the comp, it's scoring the damn thing. What a freakin pain in the butt! Keep that simple and you make hosting a comp far easier (and thus more likely to happen). It's the only thing that we don't normally do to some extent. Hosting pilots, towing gliders, even picking tasks (xc pilots do that all the time) is done on a daily basis... it's just more intense at a comp. Scoring is the voodo.

The most valuable stuff I saw in the sport class...

#1... learning to fly a GPS task. Just running around in golf carts with gps's explained most of it for me. Before doing that, it was voodo. After that it made sense.

#2... flying against someone who had to fly the same task. The open distance stuff we do on a daily basis isn't the same as racing someone to goal.

#3... seing that comps aren't actually that complex. "Hey, I can do this!.. hell, I can do this pretty well."

Jim

(end of quote)

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Post by **brianvh** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:43 am

I think so long as no points are acquired, the occasional pro who does a
sport competition will have alot to offer: we can try to learn by
following them, and even if they win, everyone will know to look past the
ringers to see how the competition really went. If prizes are offered
that have actual value (as opposed to a ribbon, etc), then of course the
standard comp pilots should be excluded.

Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:40 am

jimrooney wrote:Setting up a gps course and running around the field with golf carts seemed to cover it. Maybe we'll setup a gps day at Highland or something. Frankly I think it was more useful to do it on the ground anyway... you could ask "hey!, why's this doing that?" and get an answer on the spot.

YES! I think this would be a great idea! You want to organize this Jim? (Or know anyone who does?) This is right up there with a chute-throwing/repacking clinic.

Scott