'Spark

[hang_pilot]

As if we needed any reminders about the dangers of our sport, here's 'Spark breaking his shoulder from Facebook/Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEICgGVJdSs. ~Daniel

[Lauren Tjaden]

omigod. When did this happen?
Lauren

[XCanytime]

One word. Wheels. I witnessed the same scenario with a pilot named Andy Datesman at Daniels in Nov. 1995. Flying a TRX with carbon fiber downtubes. Came in to land in the field across the road. Botched the approach and tried to porpoise over a fence. Got over the fence but lost too much speed for an effective flare. Held on to the downtubes. Had real cheapo snap-on wheels. The right corner of the control frame dug in as the snap-on wheel shattered when the ground was contacted. He flew thru the control frame and I watched his right shoulder get jerked violently, separating his right shoulder. He was in lotsa pain. He ended up getting a ride to the UVA med center in Charlottesville. Haven't seen him flying since. Bacil

[theflyingdude]

I just saw where NY-pilot, Linda Salamone, fractured a cervical vertebrae while attempting an out-landing at a comp in Italy a couple days ago. That's three pilots I know who have broken themselves in the past week - not a good way to start the flying season! Let's be careful out there!!!

JR

[silverwings]

Watching the video it appears that Sparky let go at the appropriate time, swung thru ok without hitting anything so am confused as to how he broke is shoulder! Any thoughts?

[Ward Odenwald]

First, We all feel bad for you Sparky and hope it heals fast. If you click through the landing (frame by frame), you can see that the focal point of the down tube bending is centered at his hands. With his elbows locked, a lot of the impact energy would most likely be translated directly to his shoulders. As stated by Bacil, WHEELS baby WHEELS may have lessened the impact!

Ward

[stevek]

Yes, it does look like Spark let go in time. But obviously not. Be interesting to see it slo mo. We are talking tenths of a second here.

[XCanytime]

If you click through the landing (frame by frame), you can see that the focal point of the down tube bending is centered at his hands. With his elbows locked, a lot of the impact energy would most likely be translated directly to his shoulders.

Ward

Once the DT "sprang" back to straight (just like a bowstring), the pressure wave induced by this action flew up the arm and found the weak link (the humerus/shoulder joint) and the weak link failed. Identical to what I saw with Andy way back in 11/95 at Daniels. Bacil

[markc]

Here's a proposal for forum topics which involve reports of a pilot's injury:

If you WERE NOT PRESENT during the incident in question....

And if the pilot involved HAS NOT MADE a post of his/her own, describing what happened and inviting input from others...

Then please limit your contributions to one of two things:

1. Well-wishes for the pilot's speedy recovery. Suggestions for how to deal with injury and healing. Encouragement. Recommendations of good doctors and hospitals. Ya get my drift?
2. Your QUESTIONS about the incident.

Regarding (2) : One way that this topic might have evolved is along these lines:

"Yikes, I'm so sorry to see & hear about what happened to you 'Spark! When you have a moment and are physically able, could you comment on whether you think that wheels would have made a difference in the outcome of your landing, and if so, why, and if so, what type of wheels?"

If the pilot in question doesn't respond to your questions.... Too Damn Bad!

Anyone & everyone has the option of opening a new thread/discussion in these forums about any flight-related topic that they have an interest in. In the event that there isn't any response to (2), then one such topic might be : Wheels Are A Good Thing, And Here's Why I Think So.

I'm all for learning from the past and learning from the present. What I'm getting a little bit sick of is the lack of conversational give-and-take. ESPECIALLY when someone has gotten hurt.

If people feel that this sort of restriction is too limiting to their expression.... Well, ok, we can vote on it, and I'm happy to abide by the result. But to be honest, the above seems pretty much like COMMON COURTESY to me.

MarkC

[Flying Lobster]

[deveil]

the man is doing the job he was elected to do - nothing more, nothing less.

[Flying Lobster]

Hey Mark--even logged in I can't 1) post an image or 2) delete a post. I looked at the FAQs but still no go.

marc

[Spark]

hey guys ... it is totally cool to talk about this and even to speculate. I'm ok with it.

yeah, I screwed up.

didn't transition to downtubes early enough
should have had my hands low in the corners on final, could've had better hand position
possibly not enough speed on final
glider might've been trimmed too slow
no wheels on the glider ... 12" pneumatic wheels at home
i waited too long to let go

also, complacency probably played a part in this accident

here is a clip of the landing at normal speed

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlBQjqlPp8[/youtube]

peace

[Larry Huffman]

Spark

Regardless of the cause of your accident I want to wish you a full and speedy recovery.

Larry

[markc]

I have to apologize for the vituperative tone of my post regarding what's appropriate for a forum topic involving an accident with an injury. I'm afraid that I let my feelings of "righteous indignation" get the best of me. I should have toned things down before hitting the Submit button, sorry about that.

My feelings on this issue have been building up over time, obviously. I didn't intend to direct my ire to individuals who have already posted on this thread.

That said..... I still believe that there are three bonafide areas of discussion for an accident-with-injury topic:

a) Eyewitness reports.
b) Wishes for a speedy recovery; offers of help; etc.
c) QUESTIONS about the incident from fellow pilots.

The purpose of these forums is the exchange of ideas. A constructive way to accomplish that is to ask questions first and then to add your own opinions and perspective later.

For topics that don't involve an accident/injury? Ok, that context is quite different, and perhaps discussions should be a bit more free-wheeling.

But when someone has gotten hurt? Well.... If the direction of the topic starts veering toward what a pilot coulda/shoulda/woulda done, before we've even heard anything about how the pilot is doing? Queue the indignation!

We don't have many hard-and-fast rules about the content of topics in these forums. But an accident/injury report is on a different plane, at least in my book. If others agree... Then perhaps the forum charter/rules should be updated with some sort of statement to that effect? Just a thought!

MarkC

[uplandann]

Hey Spark,

Hope you have a speedy recovery and rehab., and glad you were able to walk off the field.
When and where was your accident?
I saw this post almost as soon as it had posted and looked at the video.I hesitated to post a comment because, I thought 'where are the wheels?' Then, I read your comments that you felt wheels would have helped along with letting go of the downtubes.
I remember Mark Windsheimer telling me that "if it looks like you are going to 'eat dirt' let go of the downtubes swing through and grab the keel so you dont bang your head." As a Hang One I remember thinking, 'how in the hell am I going to remember to do all that, when I'm thinking about the dirt I'm about to eat!'
I think that when things happen that fast it is really hard to do it in time.

Again, Spark, wish you a speedy recovery, and glad it was not any worse.

Ann

[rasmussenv]

Spark,

Thanks for posting that you don't mind the discussion, and I'm sorry it happened and hope you are going to get back to 100%!

On the other hand, Mark, I appreciate your sensitivity to the pilot's feelings - very valid - but don't want to quash reaction because I also would like to learn from that. I watched the video and KNOW I have landings like that (except with wheels and am fine) and I like the constructive criticism paired with such a perfect, and slow motion video. What a learning tool! Okay, the wheels are obvious when the flare fails, but why did the flare fail? I can see that he could have been faster, but he did pull in some at the end. Was he obviously too slow, or is that supposition?

My real question is: I THINK when I have a weak flare it is because I have pushed OUT in a flare, versus push UP - or at least that is the way it feels. I watch this and say "yes - he is pushing out, not up, just as I have done when it doesn't work". Am I right? And if so, what causes that? Speed? or hand position? or is it just an illusion, and it 'seems' up versus out when it works right, and it is really some other factor that 'makes' it go up? Sometimes I land sweet and sometimes I have a landing like this (on wheels) and I'm not really sure what was the critical difference. If it is obvious, I would love to hear.

Valerie

[uplandann]

I like your question Valerie.

Spark,
Looking at the vid. again, I see feet and knees dragging durring the push-out. This definately slows the glider down/could've reduced flare authority...??
Thank you for your courage and willingness to share this video with us. It is hard to watch, but has been a valuable tool to help others. ~Ann

[Spark]

i think the problem with my flare is that I didn't transition to the downtubes soon enough (like before I got into ground effect). my hands were not high enough, soon enough. by the time i transitioned my hands it was time to flare. as soon as I flared the glider settled and i couldnt get my feet under me. then my feet and knees began to drag and it was all over.

my 2 cents

[RedBaron]

Hey guys,

broken bones wherever you look. WTF is going on? My best wishes to Spark and Hugh, real bummer.

I THINK when I have a weak flare it is because I have pushed OUT in a flare, versus push UP - or at least that is the way it feels. I watch this and say "yes - he is pushing out, not up, just as I have done when it doesn't work".

I think I can make a contribution here. The critical point is the pilot's center of gravity (CG) in relation to the glider's CG. The pilot's weight is much heavier and the CG lower (somwhere near the hips) providing enough leverage to make flare timing much less critical than most folks think. However, it is important to use that leverage and push out (or up) keeping your arms aligned with your CG. When you watch Spark's vid carefully, you see that Spark's body is moving much farther back than the glider up because he's not using his CG. CG, torso and arms are not aligned so he just rotates around his CG (like a regular push-up) instead of rotating the glider up around the glider's CG.

You can flare a glider from the base tube using this technique, I've done it in an emergency when my harness wasn't rotating up. And, flaring a bit too soon is alway better than too late as long as you flare hard.

Hope this helps and a safe season to you all. Miss flying (and crashing) with you guys.

Janni

[uplandann]

Spark,
Yep, I see what you mean, about the transition.
Not to get to textbook about it, (and I'm sure as pilots get more experienced, the 'round out' phase can get belly-close to the ground, you flare and land like a bird, on your feet). In Dennis Pagan's book he talks about the round-out taking place with the feet at or slightly above the ground, and being ready to run. After being frustrated with my flare timing, I started concentrating on thinking about running out my landing as I was in my round out phase. It's not that perfect perch like a bird landing, but it has come in handy, and I have had many more landings on my feet that way, and I've been able to gradually work on perfecting my timing when i'm not worried so much about no-step landings. my H2cents worth
--Ann

[RichH]

Hope you get well soon Spark and thank you for having a great attitude towards learning and helping others in processing your circumstance...There is so much involved in the landing phase of a hang glider but if I could add one thing and that is carrying enough speed into your final..I usually carry more speed than I need as I turn base leg onto final and I carry that speed until I go upright which is usually when I hit that 8-ft above the ground area. At that point I will allow the control bar to come out to trim..and wait till I feel the glider settle and the amount of flair will depend on the amount of wind in the landing field..more wind less aggressive flair...no wind fairly aggressive flair..At this time of year we can experience stronger lapse rates and the possibility of thermals releasing in the landing field ..a good amount of speed in your DW B F is your friend!! Remember landing in the middle of the day 12-3p on a strong thermal day you are fairly likely to experience turbulance close to the ground..add strong winds and you can have your hands full..A strong landing starts with a good downwind/base and final..I also strongly recommend wheels, I never flew with them for many years but I was flying consistantly (X times a week) and felt confident in my skills..After a long layoff I immediately put wheels back on my glider and they have saved me on more than one occassion.. Rich Hiegel

[deveil]

what i recall from when i spent a bit of time observing, was that paying attention to the round out helped new pilots get all the aspects of a landing better coordinated - getting down to the ground with control and authority, rounding out, then having time after to get a sense of what is going on with you and the glider and the field.
gary

[Flying Lobster]

word up--wheel.

[Spark]

word up--wheel.