Edith's Gap reopening

[deveil]

then again…

http://www.trailbuilders.org/conference/Chainsaw.html

[deveil]

.
they won't cut a tree down, but these things are looking better and better.
http://www.garrettwade.com/heavy-duty-a ... /11G12.01/

if they are going to be real sticklers, the chainsaw stuff may be another job for outsourcing.

[deveil]

lot of planning, work, complications, time, energy will be depleted… speaking of which, how's that high rock ramp coming ?

[mcelrah]

I think handling chain saws is a lot more dangerous than hang-gliding. When I was doing a tree extraction a couple years ago, that was the first thing in my mind "don't cut off your hand or foot or a finger trying to get this stupid glider out of a tree". Also, trees can fall on you when you cut them down... I still like the professional tree service with chipper for the debris. - Hugh

[mcelrah]

See the topic on "hang-glider pilot finds work": Tuckwiler will look for the HR plans in his boxes after work at his new job at Wills Wing. - Hugh

[deveil]

well, i should have been more direct. i was intending to raise the question of whether there would be enough, well i guess energy and oomph, in pursuit of both goals. i don't have an answer in mind, just thought i'd bring up the point.

re: chain saws - i'm sure there are plenty of us, me for one, who have enough knowledge and experience to do some tree cutting confidently and safely. but that would be a time we'd have to be careful of you wuffos being around.
the chipper thing is top notch if they approve it and once we work out a way to get all the 'stuff' up to the road.
as for professionals? i'm going to go with Paul Bunyan and Babe the blue ox. they could handle either the one or the both. IF they are available.

[deveil]

keep this on the 'qt', but my experience with regulatory agencies is that while they are compelled to spell things out initially, don't us immediately dwell on what may be 'problem' areas. let them get a sense of us, as mark talked about, and give them a chance to consider how 'sticky' they feel they need to be on some of the specifics. i'm sure they have some latitude on some things if they feel comfortable.

[markc]

Exactly. Many who work in a regulatory climate will automatically point to very formalized rules-and-regs, because in many cases that is a very appropriate thing to do. But in our community, we have cleared Woodstock, Pulpit, and Bill's with the use of chainsaws in recent years, and under fairly challenging conditions. That counts for something in my book, even if it doesn't fall under the auspices of some 'official' program of chainsaw operation and safety. All I'm suggesting is that we attempt to convey the experience which quite a few members of our community have, since that might remove a stumbling block.

Hiring a company to take down the trees and chip them might also be feasible..... But I've got to wonder what the cost would be, and whether the expense would really be worth it. I mean, really, no site that we are flying has ever been cleared or maintained by anyone except ourselves, right? For a project like this, and with lots of lead time, I've got to think that we can assemble enough pilots to get it done.

MarkC

[deveil]

" really, no site that we are flying has ever been cleared or maintained by anyone except ourselves "
Woof Woof

[Dan T]

The Forest Service is going to permit us to reopen the site. There are a series of hoops that we will need to jump through along the way. It starts with completing some paperwork that they are sending to me. The paperwork includes registering as a volunteer organization with them, and identifying the dues paying members of our club who will be participating in the clean up effort among other items. As I understand it, the current dues paying members of our club who sign the list will be covered by workman's compensation if they get hurt while participating in the authorized volunteer activities.

There will be a separate form permitting us to use non-club member assistants. They will be permitted to assist but won't have the Workman's Comp coverage.

We will need to do the tree cutting while they are with us. They are going to poison the Ailanthus as soon as it's cut. This is when it's most susceptible to being killed.

In order to operate a chain saw the operator will have to have a written qualification certification from the USFS. To my knowledge none of us currently have this. I think there are earlier posts on this thread describing how to get one. If any of you are up for going through that process it would probably be helpful. However, if I understood the USFS correctly, they might be able to provide chain saw operators to work alongside us while we haul the debris out. Their motive is to clear the invasive trees.

We will need to schedule the clean up activities and hold a tailgate safety training session prior to starting the cleanup. I think they plan to teach me, (or one of you if you volunteer) to hold the session.

The first action after completing the paperwork is to mark off the area that we intend to clear. They will accompany us while we do this. They have not indicated that they will require us to retain the original slot width. This might be an opportunity to widen it enough to safely accommodate our newer wider gliders.

The person I have been working with is going to be out of pocket for the next three weeks. They are going to try to assign someone else to us but I am not certain that they will. If they don't the next on-site step, (excluding completing the paperwork) will be a month or more away. I don't know how available I am going to be for much of this summer. I could sure use someone to back me up and fill in during my absence. Someone who can meet with them during the work week would be ideal. Any volunteers?

Dan

[mingram]

Sweet! I may not be the best choice because I have no preexisting site clearing/forestry management experience, but I'll volunteer if no one else speaks up. For what its worth my roommate is a VP of the American Forest Association. I've been asking him for help but it's new to him and not his forte. I'm sure there are some contacts we could use if needed. It sounds like you have it figured out and we just need a point man. Thank you Dan!

Matt

[deveil]

"In order to operate a chain saw the operator will have to have a written qualification certification from the USFS."

okay, i'll state this with the declaration that it is made seriously.
currently, the invasive species are not what i personally consider to be "trees". "saplings" would be a more accurate description. one of the reasons for making this point is to distinguish them from the actual trees that border the original slot.

another reason is so that a proposal to use loppers sounds reasonable. i visited the site and made consideration of how they might best be cut. i believe that using loppers is not only feasible but probably preferable, for several reasons. the saplings are growing very close together. i've used a chain saw in similar situations, recently, and actually switched to loppers because i found it to be easier and safer, particularly when someone is helping pull the cut stuff out of the way. the stuff is so thick that the cut stuff will very quickly get in the way, and will necessitate people working in close proximity. a chain saw can be very dangerous in such a situation. addressing that problem- keeping chainsaws away from legs- would add a lot of time, fuss and bother. plus it's a steep hillside, plus i personally have been in that situation and don't like trusting the wellbeing of my legs to others.

you can't make cuts with a chain saw very close to the ground because dirt, just dirt, dulls the blade to uselessness in a very short time- very short time. loppers can cut right on top of the ground. stubs, remember the density, would make walking about the hillside a royal pain in the ___.
ther are other lesser reasons but those should be sufficient, and this typing is also a royal ___________s.
i took note of the sapling thickness and have tried loppers on such a thickness successfully.
AND THERE IS NO TRAINING OR CERTIFICATES NECESSARY. at least i Hope not!
i'd go out and test this but, nah, not going to.

i could be wrong, but i don't think i am.

g

downside - loppers aren't very sexy.

hope that didn't sound strident.
probably needs serious editing...

[deveil]

dang - i just realized i'd already offered to help. will follow up later. (dang)

[deveil]

but i really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really hate forms and envelopes and stamps and forms.

g

did i say i hate forms? - i get hives.

[deveil]

.
http://www.garrettwade.com/heavy-duty-a ... /11G12.01/

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... 000P?mv=rr

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... 000P?mv=rr

[deveil]

and the fact that they will handle application of the herbicide and they will provide chainsaw operators... should make one thing very obvious… the real job, the real work, the hard job, the hard work, is getting all that stUff up out of that slot.
and better be a whole bunch of people willing to commit to being there and doing that. and better be a bunch of people wanting to fly the place. now, it's true that there aren't any sites left that take that direction, but keep in mind that every time the place has been reopened… it has been left abandoned.
this is the time to reevaluate these things, 'cause this is going to take a bunch of effort.
this is something that's been in my mind from the beginning and i thought it was worth saying.
and if there's a go, well then we'll go. that simple.

jheez, i just checked back to the forum and i see this "VA Mountains" topic. seems like there's a heck of a lot of ambition out there…which is good, but it does go to making my point.

yeah, i'm doing all this downer stuff, but the way i see things, it's appropriate.

[pink_albatross]

great, DAN!
i'm in
and see if they let us clear it so that we can launch TWO pg simultaneously.
seriously.

-- ellis

[mingram]

I hear the masses chanting. TAKE BACK EDITH'S GAP! TAKE BACK EDITH'S GAP!

We have considerable interest, even if we don't get to fly it that often. It was ours and we want it back. We have permission to commit arborcide (under supervision)! Ailanthus doesn't stand a chance.

[Dan T]

Gary is essentially right on the use of loppers. Big loppers are going to be the implement of choice for much of the work in the slot. I have a pair that I use for trimming the branches from the trees overhanging my driveway. Many of those branches were bigger than most of the saplings in the slot.

The USFS wants to remove the Ailanthus too. In fact it is a pretty high priority for them. Reading between the lines I got the sense that they were willing to do the 'technical' work provided that we could provide the labor to do the debris removal. The key is we will have to do it on a schedule that they can accommodate.

I think Gary's point about where we should focus our energies is also worthy of discussion. Edith's Gap never got a lot of use because it was a difficult narrow slot, a long way to an LZ, even a bail out one, and it faces in a direction that doesn't get a lot of suitable winds. On the other hand, it looks as if we can reopen it at the cost of showing up with a fairly large group of volunteers, we now have permission to land in a field that is less than a 5 to 1 glide from launch and we might have the opportunity to get the slot widened enough to accommodate all of our modern gliders, both hang and para. Since we no longer have ready access to a SE facing site within 200 miles of the DC area, it seems that our efforts are justified.

The one reservation that I have is the prior width of the slot. As we all know, wider is safer and it was originally pretty narrow by today's standards. I'm inclined to press for permission to make it as least as wide as the slot at Woodstock. My plan is to do this during the site survey.

I think it would help to have a few additional members of our organization along for the survey, particularly club officers and representatives of the National Organization, the USHPA.

The USFS is doing what they can to make this work for us. I suggest we do it in accordance with their requirements. It is not unreasonable to assume that they are watching this dialog to confirm that we have the organizational maturity to enter into the agreement with them.

This thread is getting awfully long. I'm going to post my next update on a new one.

Dan

[deveil]

Dan, thanks for hearing that the way i meant it. gary

[deveil]

plus i already bought a pair of those garretwade loppers weeks ago - and they actually are sort of sexy.

[deveil]

dang - i just realized i'd already offered to help. will follow up later. (dang)

it’s true that i take on a lot of different voices when i write here on the forum, but it’s also true that i’m quite capable of being as sober and serious as the next person (it’s just that it’s not as much fun). i’ve been there/done that in a professional capacity (No, not the clown capacity). you probably wouldn’t believe it, but in a past life i’ve even written amendment proposals to a license from the NRC for use of low level radioactive materials.’didn’t much enjoy doing all that NRC, DOT, OSHA, and biohazard regulation stuff, but they didn’t close the company down while i was doing it.
so, Dan, if you need some help, i’m willing - as long as matt throws in as well. and, yes, i can do the mid week stuff.
but if you turn down my offer, well, i won’t shed tears, and i’m still pretty good with a pair of loppers and a chain saw. the dragging and carrying and lifting stuff no so much.

[mingram]

I didn't realize Dan needed someone mid-week. I'll try to help, but am mostly out of pocket during week days. I have a few vacation days to use or lose. Daniel Broxterman said he could swing a mid-week visit as well.

I hope we don't find widening the slot too difficult. Set up area as well. It seems like that's the important part to making the site more useful and that will be a lot of work. Although it'd be pretty easy if we could just leave everything on site. I have a trailer I can borrow for hauling brush - it's not covered, if that's required.

I'm also worried about the little stumps in the slot. Renting a stump grinder might be the way to go if there are that many of them. I've never used one so don't know how difficult that would be.

Matt

[pink_albatross]

if it's mid-week, i'm out
-- ellis

[deveil]

i can handle any mid week stuff if that would be acceptable. i still think it's a good idea, important actually, to have just one person who works with the FService people. it would make it much, much easier for both sides.
doing the forms, gathering necessary club info and that sort of thing - if others would help handle that kind of stuff, that would be good.
gary