Proposed Site Rules

[Matthew]

In many places that we have flown our paragliders, you are not allowed to move to launch unless you are in your harness and helmet and have your PG canopy attached, floretted and ready to go. Here, however, some PG pilots assemble their gliders at launch, sometimes taking 20 minutes or even a half an hour to get their lines attached and cleared while others are waiting to launch. So I propose that we add a rule to the site guide stating that a paraglider pilot cannot move to launch unless the paraglider canopy is attached to the harness and the A lines have been cleared at all of the CHGPA maintained sites. Rocky, narrow sites, such as Woodstock, make it too difficult for the whole nine yards of laying out the wing and then balling it back up to be ready to go. However, there is plenty of room to attach the wing to the harness, open the center, check the A lines and then fold the wing back up prior to moving towards launch.

I would like to vote on this proposal at the next meeting.

Also, there is an unwritten rule that you don't break down or fold up your glider where you land in the LZ. You move the glider to the breakdown area to break down your glider. This applies to PGs and HGs. It doesn't matter if a no one is coming into land when you are breaking down your HG or folding up your PG. The considerate thing to do is to pick up your glider and move to the breakdown area. You cannot predict that a flush cycle may or may not occur while putting your glider away. The landing area must be clear. Airplanes don't stop in the middle of the runway to let out the passengers. So I propose that we also make this a rule and vote on it at the next meeting in May.

Matthew

[Dan T]

Do we have anything resembling an up to date site guide? The one I have is more than 10 years old and is no longer maintained. Where would we publish such a set of rules? If there is no readily accessible place to publish the site protocols would a simple gentle reminder to the offending pilot(s) suffice?

Dan

[pink_albatross]

Gentle reminders have not seemed to have done the trick ...

In addition, having a simple mention of general etiquette in the site guide will go a long way to assuring that new pilots and new to the area pilots are informed and at less risk of falling through the cracks ("I thought *you* told him?") needlessly incurring the wrath/irritation of waiting pilots.

-- ellis
p.s. how about: "Hang gliding pilots are expected to assemble and preflight their wings and gear and are expected to be hooked in, ready to go before entering the take off queue. Paragliding pilots are expected to have attached their harness to the wing, preflighted their gear, be in the harness and ready to go before entering the take off queue. This also applies to a queue length of zero."

[Matthew]

That's good too..

Matthew

[silverwings]

I partially agree/disagree with : "Hang gliding pilots are expected to assemble and preflight their wings and gear and are expected to be hooked in, ready to go before entering the take off queue. Paragliding pilots are expected to have attached their harness to the wing, preflighted their gear, be in the harness and ready to go before entering the take off queue. This also applies to a queue length of zero." or similar requirements.

For Hang Gliders, some pilots may choose/desire to not hookin until at launch position but should have everything ready to go so that they are not holding up others. This may be especially desireable for some sites.

For Paragliders, having your harness and helmet on and your glider ready to spread out with lines stowed correctly should only take a couple of minutes at most to get ready to launch. If your lines are all tangled, then you did not straighten them out before packing and doing this at launch can be bad for all concern (including the pilot).

What is not appropriate is to have to spend more than a few minutes getting things ready to launch. There are sites throughout the world were it is particular easy to be ready to go before getting in the take off que but not all sites permit that. Just be prepared, reasonable and not holding up others.

[brianvh]

How about "pilots should be wearing their harness and helmet with all equipment including the wing assembled and preflighted before moving into the launch queue. The goal is for nothing more to required for launch than a pre launch check and final positioning of the wing. This holds for both hang gliders and paragliders even if there is a zero length queue." People can read attachment to the glider as part of the pre launch check if they prefer.

I think Ellis' more explicit wording is better, though perhaps the wording about attached to the glider can be dropped. My preference (not that it matters) would be to require Aussie at these particular sites, but some are passionately against it.

[deveil]

first of all, i most always view Matthews lack of timidity as a laudable offense. gentle reminders, and written rules for that matter, are mostly only effective when everyone steps up and speaks up at appropriate times. no one has qualms about asking about hang checks…

it had/has been my experience that pilots jealously guarded the non regulated and unfettered nature of the sport and the issuance of “rules” was always somehow unsavory. if absolutely necessary, 'getting in someones face' was looked upon much more favorably, which is after all, what one would need to do if serious enforcement of a 'rule' were to be required. no?
oh yeah - IMHO

[Flying Lobster]

Does "I'm ready to go, either launch or move out of my way" not work anymore?

marc

[Danny Brotto]

Or suffer the brutal shame and ignominy of being verbally and voceferiously called out as a "launch potato" by your fellow pilots... like this...

"POTATO... LAUNCH POTATO ON LAUNCH... NO POTATO!!!"

Danny Brotto

[deveil]

[RichH]

Its interesting that this enters the realm of disscussion and not safety concerns..which in my opinion hold alot more weight..Forming "Rules on Launch etiquette" seems pretty small..Why dont we drop this disscussion and move on to something a bit more relevant...

[deveil]

there was a lack of refinement back a while, wasn't there? i thought it helped form a sense of community, a sense of family - as in rudely affectionately behaving toward one another as though they were an actual brother.

[deveil]

i'm sorry, but marc and danny's posts arestill cracking me up. they are actually dead on accurate.

[brianvh]

Damn, you guys are right. The PC atmosphere could ruin flying. Maybe just let it be known that those who hold up launch unnecessarily will be pelted with potatoes. Those who can't pull themselves together to launch safely under these circumstances deserve the consequences.

[deveil]

you're getting the hang of it.

[deveil]

except that "potato" means rooted in place, rooted to the ground. wow, did that stuff really get lost?
didn't they teach you anything at hyner besides naked fire jumping?
how about "ramp dance"? anyone know what ramp dance means?
excuse me now, i have to get back to my rocking chair...

[markc]

Being "overly-selective" about launch conditions because you don't want to sled is one thing.....

Being truly UNPREPARED when you get to launch is quite another.

We've all potatoed on launch at some point. I know that there have been times when I've held launch queues up, hoping for some magic change in conditions, or the "just three more mph!" that I desperately want in order to have any kind of shot on (say) a Bill's Hill day. The amount of potato'ing is often directly proportional to the amount of time you have to drive to get to a site, or the amount of time since your last soaring flight.

But there have been other times when I have quite literally sat in the launch queue for half an hour or more, as the on-deck pilot gets his/her act to the point of simply being ABLE to fly. This isn't wing-specific, I've seen it with both HG pilots and PG pilots.

"Pushing" on launch can be effective at some sites when a pilot is waiting through cycles that others would be willing to take. But it's not so simple when someone is actively trying to sort things out... What are you going to say, "Hurry up, get it together dude!" as the process is underway? Hmmm.

I'm not sure that "site rules" are really the best way to deal with the problem. How about some pointed questions as a pilot is moving to launch, eg: "Hey, have you set everything up and are you ready to fly right now?" "Have you pre-flighted your wing and your gear and are you ready to fly right now?" "Are you ready to fly RIGHT NOW?" A bit of peer pressure might be more effective than formal rules.

On the other hand, I can TOTALLY get behind a hard-and-fast "Clear the LZ immediately after landing!!!!" rule. That one is just common sense, and should be communicated to all pilots, regardless of wing.

Yesterday, Matthew (PG) was heading into the LZ at Woodstock a bit ahead of me, and lower. Matthew was hitting a major head wind and I knew that I could sequence into the field well after he was down, simply by extending my boxes around the field and giving him some time. He landed close to the edge of the field, and I (HG) had zero problem setting up for final. But Tom (HG) was immediately behind me, and I had lost reference with exactly where he was... So when I put my glider down (with nose beak, and a fair amount of force on the wing as the due-North winds started to crank up) I seriously hustled to get the wing under control and then jog it out of the way. If either Matthew or I were dilly-dallying in the middle of the field, it could have made Tom's landing a major PITA, and with limited options.

If you are in the LZ, and haven't gotten to the break-down area, then YOU ARE IN THE WAY. Period.

MarkC

[Flying Lobster]

Maybe each launch should be equipped with a baseball bat?

marc

[deveil]

instead of a rule, just have marc move back to the area. he wasn’t shy about telling you about what the rules were, written or otherwise. it works.

[deveil]

come to think of it, it was part of what an instructor and an observer did - and was backed up by everyone else - made sure every new H2 knew what was expected of them.
did i say and was backed up by everyone else? because that's what makes "it" work.

[deveil]

in a sense that's what is being done here, on the "forum". it's spoken of, spoken with emphasis, spoken with conviction so that people don't miss or are reminded of its importance. maybe what this forum accomplishes is somehow missed and overlooked(?). being talked about face to face may have more impact as it is more personal. maybe more of that needs to be mixed in. but this very exercise will have way more impact than anything that's written, probably the impact everyone is looking for.

[deveil]

"heavy , dude"

[deveil]

and just so matthew knows that i know and maybe what others don't know, is that this is sometimes the very thing that he is looking to do - get the ball rolling, get the conversation going, get the party started.

[deveil]

and if there is a chuckle or two along the way, all the better.
i'm still chuckling over danny's post.

[brianvh]

Going WAY back to the mesozoic (ie, the beginning of Gary's string of posts): Yes, everyone knows what a launch potato is. That's why pelting them with potatoes while on launch lets them know why you are frustrated. I didn't think that was so hard to disambiguate. But it's not clear if everyone reads the forums, so maybe funding Marc for a month long visit might be club money well spent. Or maybe just a weekend seminar on how to give people grief: evaluation of tone of voice, sarcastic content, etc. The pulpit fly-in would be a good venue.