Obligatory Beginner Question - HG vs PG

[pgcorky]

Just looking for opinions. At 53 and in reasonable condition, I know that I can probably get in the air. I've had a couple of HG lessons, foot launches and tandem flights. Awesome fun, but hard to find enough time to build the skills into something useful. So here's the question. If you were me (and you're not!) - given limited time what is the quickest way to independent flight -HG or PG? I'm open to either HG or PG, but figure I need to make a choice and focus building those skills now. I've done a lot of looking at comparative advantages and disadvantages - and feel like I'd be thrilled to be able to do either HG or PG. Appreciate your thoughts an guidance folks!

[jyoder111]

hard to find enough time

That may be your biggest issue. Devoting lots of time early on will help you learn the basics more thoroughly and more quickly with either wing. If you only get a lesson once a month or so then you'll get rusty in between and spend half the day relearning what you did the previous lesson.

[silverwings]

I fly both hang gliders and paragliders and teach foot launch hang gliding. The flying conditions in this part of the country are more favorable to hang gliders because of their extended speed range. There is a fairly good size local pilot population for both wings. The major advantage of a paraglider is it's portability and in some parts of the country/world they are great for flying. Both types of wing require proper training and the more regular you fly the more you will enjoy the sport and be safer. There are few PG instructors on the east coast and none close by. Also available for HG is aerotow which can give additional options for flying. Learning to fly either via foot launch provides a lot of physical activity. Do not expect to go to some school and complete your training in a short time and become a competent pilot. This sport takes a lot of practice and doing 20 - 50 training flights is nothing in the scheme of learning to fly either.

[mcelrah]

I second all the above, but would add: don't dither too long trying to decide which one is best; pick one and start! The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

That said, there is better availability of instruction for HG locally than for PG, although we may get a PG instructor in Charlottesville soon. Be prepared to do a good deal of hang- and para-driving - your idea of a convenient driving distance will change - most of us are pretty obsessed - there is no 12-step program for this jones.

It's worth the time and effort. Not enough time? Give something else up: I quit singing in choirs to have weekends unencumbered. This sport is weather-dependent, so you want a bit of flexibility to catch the really good days.

- Hugh (age 60)
HG/PG/trike/sailplane/airplane pilot (wish I had money for a balloon)

[pgcorky]

I appreciate all the excellent advice on this. It really tilts me towards 3 things:
1. I need to make the time or it won't happen! Even if it might mean less of something else 'fun'. (I still need to work!)
2. HG seems to have more local resources and training and suitability for our region.
3. Looks like the consistent effort will be critical to get the piloting skills moving along.

Who do we like for local instructors? I live in Leesburg, VA.

Many thanks all for your generous thoughts!
Paul

[AcTiOnJaCkSoN]

Here are a few places
http://www.aerosports.net/lessons.html
http://silverwingshanggliding.com/
http://www.blueskyhg.com/
I am currently learning to hang glide @ Blue sky, got nothing but good to say about them so far.

[mcelrah]

The first one to respond to you, John Middleton of silverwings.com, is your closest foot-launch instructor.

Other options include surface towing with Steve Wendt of Blue Sky in Manquin VA (NE of Richmond); aerotow with Adam Elchin and Sunny Venesky at Highland Aerosports (aerosports.net) in Ridgley MD; and Richard Hays, Maryland School of Hang Gliding (mshg.com or .org) NW of Baltimore ( also foot-launch). You can mix and match all these forms of instruction, but will need to concentrate with the one instructor who is going to get you through your novice (H2) rating.

You could also go further afield for concentrated courses at big schools at Kitty Hawk, Lookout Mt. Georgia/Tennessee, or even Point of the Mountains UT, but why? The instructional phase is itself part of the journey. When you are flying for 5 seconds 5 feet off the ground at a training hill, you are already hang-gliding! Enjoy it!

- Hugh McElrath

[markc]

If you decide to pursue hang gliding instruction... I'm a big fan of 'cross-training' . That is, an approach whereby you combine foot-launch and/or aerotow and/or truck-tow and/or winch-tow techniques. They can all offer the student valuable experience, and it might be possible to find a better fit, for you, with one combination over some other combination.

My one caveat : Don't bounce around too much. You really do need to focus in on one-thing-at-time. A typical progression for someone who wants to fly the mountains might be to get a Hang-I with a foot-launch instructor, then switch to aero/truck-tow to get experience at altitude, then go back to foot-launch instruction in order to get a H-II rating such that local Observers are comfortable throwing you off the area high sites.

On the other hand, if time/life constraints are such that your available time is limited, then you might want to go with flight-park-only (aero and/or truck and/or winch) type of instruction. You can have great soaring experiences in both the mountains and at the flight parks.

It all depends on your flying goals, the time available to you, and how well you click with a given instructor or school. Luckily, you have many options to explore in the mid-Atlantic area!

MarkC

[pch]

Being a paraglider, I'm putting my 2cents in for PG. No one mentioned the set-up & break-down time & details of a setting-up hanglider, if that's important to you. I may be a basic PG instructor soon too(tandem instructor for 9years). That's my story & I'm stickin' to it.

[pch]

Oh yeah, foot launch vs. towing. I'm a purist so FL is my preference, I've only towed for manuvers clinics.

[kcarra]

who is pch? Could you sign your posts?

[mcelrah]

That's Peter Humes, P4/T3, yogi, chef, and nominated to be PG tandem administrator. Peter,that's great news about basic instructor. We need you! -Hugh

[pgcorky]

You guys are sure generous with time and opinions! I think that's a good sign. I was at Torrey Pines last year to watch the gliders - and saw a fella arrive, pull his PG out of his trunk, unfurl, fly, return, and pack up in about 90 minutes. I talked to him for 5 minutes - and he did this on his lunch hour! I'll admit, that was food for thought. But as far as where you can launch a PG vs HG - which seems pretty important - I'm getting the read that there are:
1. More launch/land locations that are favorable for HG
2. There are more wind conditions that are acceptable for HG vs PG i.e. more days that I could actually fly.

Do I have that right? Again, my thanks all!
Paul

[brianvh]

Everybody has already covered the bases but I obviously have work I'm trying to avoid.

HG has better support locally to get started, but PG may seduce you with its convenience down the road. More people go from HG to PG in this area than the reverse. Doesn't mean PG is better (in your area HG is better for beginners) but it does get harder to convince your creaking joints to lift a HG if you've gotten used to PG. I'm not sure anyone has successfully argued that one is easier to fly than the other, they have different pros and cons.

So if you start with HG your options are greater for making a switch down the road, so that's the way I'd argue it, on top of John's reasons for HG being better locally.

[jyoder111]

lunch hour

You can't set up a HG as fast, but a Falcon packs up about as fast as a PG if you don't dwaddle and the winds aren't too strong. Depends on your personality too, I guess, and how easily you can bend over or get down on your knees.

[mcgowantk]

Paul

With respect to giving up other fun activities, you don't need to worry. Nothing else will seem fun after flying!

Tom McGowan

[deveil]

if i were to say something, i would say that that about says it. you know. 'just saying.

[pgcorky]

lunch hour

You can't set up a HG as fast, but a Falcon packs up about as fast as a PG if you don't dwaddle and the winds aren't too strong. Depends on your personality too, I guess, and how easily you can bend over or get down on your knees.

I've been working for the man long enough to know how to bend over. And been married long enough to know how to get on my knees.

[deveil]

i sense a blues song coming, either that or country and western.

[markc]

I have to admit, I've decided to forego HG flying on multiple SoCal trips, simply because of the hassle-factor arranging for a wing, transporting it to a site, lugging my harness along, yada-yada-yada. I've ended up taking sailplane lessons on several recent trips.

No doubt about it, PG is a lot more travel-friendly than HG. Even a low-perf glider that short-packs is a pretty big PITA compared to the single bag for harness+wing that PG requires. Especially for trips of just a few days... (which is what I usually end up doing).

So if you expect to be traveling a lot, and you really want to experience flying wherever you go, then PG might be the better choice.

That said, I like the observation that you can start on one sort of wing, and then move on to another. Soaring is soaring, and no decision that you make is set in stone.

MarkC

[uplandann]

I've been working for the man long enough to know how to bend over. And been married long enough to know how to get on my knees.

i sense a blues song coming, either that or country and western.

[pink_albatross]

too many HG opinions. Here's a PG opinion (keep in mind I started out as an HG pilot :

The fastest way to get into the air is to take a vacation (a week or even better two), go to Torrey Pines or Santa Barbara (wind conditions there almost guarantee that you'll fly/train every day -- NOT necessarily the case with other locations!) and train PG. On average that should get you to your P2 (ask our VP, Matt Ingram, he seemed to have been on the fast track).

And excuse me... but I am willing to say that every P2 around here can get to fly as much as any HG around here! We don't show up when the winds are strong, so the HG pilots don't see us then. Conversely they often don't show up when the winds are forecasted to be light, so we don't see them that often either. Make sure your light air take offs are solid and you get to fly often. If you do not have time to stay current, you can specialize in morning and evening flights, when the air tends to be less turbulent. Makes for shorter flights, but you can fly. You need to be more current to fly in mid-day conditions safely.

-- Ellis (H3, P4 and PG observer)

[Flying Lobster]

Hmmmm...at the risk of this degrading into a pg vs hg slugfest--I'll venture a couple of opinions as someone who is truly "neutral" since I do both and am an advanced instructor in both. Most of the advantages of one versus the other have been outlined here already--I'd only like to add that if the conditions get strong and you need a long glide to get over an lz--Hg's have a distinct advantage over pg's. That said, Pg's have made amazing performance improvements--some of the upper-end wings come close to intermediate HG's in performance these days--with the possible exception at very high speed glides.

There is a common perception that PG's are inherently more dangerous than HG's--I believe this is mostly due to the sensationalized videos on youtube and elsewhere. I think that flown within the pilot's and condition's limitations, they are really safer simply because of their generally slower speeds. Landing a pg is almost always a non-event compared to landing an hg.

Unfortunately, the one area where they seem to have parity these days is the cost of equipment and training. I'd say learn both if you had tons of time and money--but that's not likely your situation.

If I were in your shoes, I'd look at accessibility of launches and training as the deciding factor--in other words which sport will you most likely be able to do the most given the regional and personal constraints you have.

marc

[pch]

Hi Karen, we've met at Woodstock on 11/6/10. I remember meeting you. You don't remember meeting me? Yes, it's true about traveling with a PG. Southwest & All Nippon Airways don't even charge extra for the 'bag wing'. I've traveled all over the world with my PG (Germany, India, Italy, Japan, Switzerland, & Thailand). Usually the trips to Europe charge extra (after 9/11/01).

Peter Clifford Humes
P/4 T/3
USHPA #72037
304-596-7442

[JohnE]

Hi
I am an aspiring PG pilot (soon to be 50 and in average shape). I have had only tandem flights as an intro to PG. I am going to Santa Barbara for 10 days in May to learn to PG and am aiming for a PG-2 rating. Very exciting! I have met a bunch of the local CHGPGA members (HG and PG) at their Fly-In last September at the Pulpit launch. I was checking them out to be sure that there is a good group of folks locally who can support a new pilot (in terms of training, and most importantly - observing - and generally a good group of folks to hang out with). What I found was a delightful, supportive, fun-loving group who is excited to know and support you, whether you choose HG or PG (many seem to do both!). They are safety-oriented and will provide a super support group once you have completed your basic instruction and gotten a H-2 or PG-2 rating. I have lurked for the past 6 months on the boards here and seen the fun and mutual support that they give each other. I believe that you can be assured of a super group of people to observe, hang out with, and learn from, no matter whether you choose HG or PG.

Personally, I choose PG because I like the slower mode of flight, love the idea of being able to travel easily by car or plane and take my gear with me (we travel a lot, including abroad). I note that I like the idea of just dropping a backpack-sized package in the car or plane and going for it. A hang glider (although surely wonderful) involves more packing and toting on a car. Maybe I am a bit lazy but PG seems simpler...

Anyway, after lurking here and reading every post for the past 6 months, reading the national magazine, meeting the folks that are members of the CHPGA, and so on, I am certain that no matter what you decide to do, you will have fun and be surrounded by great folks of a like mind. PG, HG, whatever, it should be an adventure...

I can't wait for May!

Best wishes
John

PS I heard that there is a separate forum for PG pilots, but, as I am not yet one, I can't check that out. However, I have gone ahead and joined CHGPGA as a non-flying member in support of the group (I will upgrade after May, of course). I think you can tell the kind of folks you are dealing with from the open and caring quality of the reponses to your post. Awesome.