Daniels Sunday afternoon? 2/20

[uplandann]

If the forecast holds for Sunday after Noon, Looks good and light South around 5mph winds . Any HG observers willing to meet me?
Was thinking of arriving at LZ about noon o'clock.

Ann

[uplandann]

Question:
Is it okay if a PG Observer who has been rated an H-3 pilot, who has had 10 flights from the site; observe me? Or do they have to be "officially" appointed HG obsv. if they are already a PG observer? (that's a bit redundant, sorry).

Ann

[uplandann]

Okay, looks like at least Ellis and Matthew and I will be going. I will be arriving around noon.

Ann

[CraginS]

Question:
Is it okay if a PG Observer who has been rated an H-3 pilot, who has had 10 flights from the site; observe me? Or do they have to be "officially" appointed HG obsv. if they are already a PG observer? (that's a bit redundant, sorry).

Ann

No. The observer has to be appointed for the type wing you need an Observer for. For today, Matthew has you covered.

Good flying!

[Matthew]

We have a contingent for Daniel's. Karen and I are going-- ETA 2pm. Dan T also going.

Matthew

[uplandann]

Good day at Daniels.
Got to LZ around 12:20 and met Matt Ingram (sp?) waiting for a ride up. I set up my windsock, and Ellis came down to pick up Matt and take him up to launch. I followed a little later. Road to launch looked the same I remember from my last flight there: a couple of heavy ruts that you have to stradle, but made it up with a lot less trepidation. Watched Matt, and Dan T launch while I was setting up. I think Ellis drove back down. It was a little chilly, not sure of the temp, probably high 40's, wind coming pretty straight in (southish) between 2-5 mph. with occational cycles at maybe 7. .

While waiting for Matthew and Karen to arrive; I think Ellis and Dan T (and Matt) came back up. Then a family on atv's came up to watch and chat with the pilots. I think Dan T and Ellis launched. Then sometime around 2:30 Karen and Matthew came up with Pedro (forgive me if I got the name wrong). Matt launched and then it was my turn.

I had a good launch, turned left in hope for some ridge lift, but did not feel I was as high as my last flight so headed out to LZ. wind was out of the south. I would have liked to have had a bit more altitude to set up my landing, so not the DBF I would have liked, (more like a fish hook) but had a good safe landing. My 2nd flight there! The sun even came out for a little while and it looked like it would be clearing. But by five'oclock the clouds had quickly filled in any blue sky from earlier, and it was starting to look more like rain on the way.

Most PGer's got two flights. Matthew and Karen each got one, I think, with Matthew getting the longest flight of the day. The two tom turkeys across the road were very vocal. They seemed pretty curious about us. One got out into the road and not wanting to witness a tragedy, I herded him back to his yard.

All in all it was a fun, and safe day, getting to meet some new faces, and getting more familiar with the ones I'd met before.
Thank you Matthew, Karen, Ellis, Matt, and Dan for your help, support and observation. Thanks everybody for remembering my windsock!! I know i would have driven off without it if you hadn't said something.

Looking forward to next time.

Ann

[sailin]

Glad to hear everybody got some flying in!! The one time I was at Daniels those Turkeys were LOUD too!

Jon

[kcarra]

Actually that no good Ellis had the longest flight. I got 23 minutes and 50' over--scratchin', scratchin', scratchin'! Most of the lift was directly in front of the slot or just to the East. When Ellis launched I went West to give her a chance to get up--- and I sank down. Once I was down to 100 below, I never got back up-- though I kept on scratchin and trying to work every bubble. I did a 360 over the LZ and gained a whopping 6 feet. Ellis got 200 over and about a half hour. Karen had a really buoyant sled of about 10 minutes.

Matthew

[Dan T]

The flying was a whole lot better than cleaning the basement even if it was a couple of extended sleds for me.

By the way I saw Ann's whole flight. Solid textbook launch, real good landing. For you observers she gets my endorsement for flying in suitable mid-H2 conditions.

She received some of her training at schools that do things a little differently than we do here in the CHGPA. Make sure you go over all the site protocols and wire crew communication conventions with her before reaching the launch point.

Dan

[uplandann]

Yeah, I was thoroughly scolded in both ears on the meaning of CLEAR, I'm not likely to forget it! And the Australian method of going to launch hooked in is another... I thought was more of a personal choice than club practice now I know if I have my harness on I've just commited myself to the Australian method.
My, I'm certainly not in Kansas, er Colorado, anymore... (she said facetiously)
I do appreciate your letting me know the protocols. I know you just want me to be safe.

I don't know if an explanation would help, but here goes: I was taught that you yell "Clear!" not just for your wire crew but for spectators etc. who may be (but shouldn't) hanging around your wing, and then you "look" to either side to check that everyone has cleared. Within 3 seconds you need to yell "launching" or "abort", to make your intentions clear. Also it gives your crew that extra second to respond, so they don't end up "twanging" one of the wires. It sounds like it takes longer, but It's basicly the same as saying "picking up" and "Clear"
I understand that it is necessary to adopt this practice, especially for more windy, and cliff-type launches where a wire crew needs to know when to let go.
Be reassured I will remember to ensure good communication. Nothing like a little shame and embarrassment to seal it in the neural network, eh?

Ann

[mcelrah]

Rules, shmules - potato, po-TAH-to. If as pilot-in-command you give a clear briefing to your wirecrew on what YOU mean by "clear" and what other words you will use, there should be no argument. I understand the value of standardized procedures - and am also a fan of the Australian method - but it is a bit presumptuous to say that another method is "wrong" and there is only one right way. You can give a Tarzan yell, a yodel, or sing the first few bars of "The Flight of the Valkeries" to signal launching as long so your crew has been briefed on what to expect.
- Hugh

[theflyingdude]

Rules, shmules - potato, po-TAH-to. If as pilot-in-command you give a clear briefing to your wirecrew on what YOU mean by "clear" and what other words you will use, there should be no argument. I understand the value of standardized procedures - and am also a fan of the Australian method - but it is a bit presumptuous to say that another method is "wrong" and there is only one right way. You can give a Tarzan yell, a yodel, or sing the first few bars of "The Flight of the Valkeries" to signal launching as long so your crew has been briefed on what to expect.
- Hugh

I agree with what Hugh said.

The important thing is to give your wire-crew specific instructions on what you intend to do and what you expect them to do. You're the pilot in command and it's up to you to take charge of the situation since you're the one attempting to commit aviation. Also, the "Australian-method" of hooking your harness to the glider before you get into the harness is by no means "protocol", at least at any of the sites I've flown over the last 30+ years or so. It's one way of trying to keep from launching while unhooked, but is certainly not the only way. I choose to get into my harness and hook-in to the glider just before I start moving towards the launch. I always do a walk/lean-thru check, a verbal confirmation to myself or anyone who might be listening that I'm hooking-in, and sometimes a hang-check if someone is available. I will also lift the glider while on launch until I feel the straps tightening to confirm I'm still hooked-in.

Try to develop a routine with some redundancy and then stick with it.

JR

[Matthew]

The problem with not intending to launch after yelling "clear" is that you can get yourself in big trouble if using that method at High Rock or one of the ramps Pulpit. "Clear" means for the wire crew and keel person to let go of the wires. In a windy cliff launch situation, you don't have another 3 seconds to look around and think about launching. If you aren't ready to launch when you say "clear" during an assisted windy cliff launch and the wire crew lets go after you say "clear", you are gong somewhere-- and that somewhere may be the trees or the rocks below launch if you aren't really ready to launch.

And yes-- the wire crew is supposed to take instruction from the pilot, however, it's just so ingrained in HG pilots in this region to let go of the wires when hearing "clear", it's very doubtful that they will hang onto the wires till you say "launching" even if they agree to do so.



Matthew

[lbunner]

I agree. When you yell "Clear" you should already have control of the glider (ie. no hands on the side wires). The launch should proceed immediately following the yell. To take time to look right and left will only get one into trouble, especially on thermic days. Thanks for sharing Ann. It's good for all of us to think of this stuff from time to time.

[uplandann]

Wish I had thought to ask this sooner:
Of those of you who saw my flight: (I know winds were too light) do you remember if I turned soon enough after launch to enter the hypothetical lift band, or did I need to wait a little longer to turn (since lift seemed to be a little further in front that day)? Is there anything else besides wind velocity that determines whether the lift will extend further in front or be closer to the hill?
Could you tell/remember if I did a maximum efficiency turn?

Thanks,
Ann

[mcelrah]

Ann,
I wasn't there but we generally think of the lift band as being continuous from the surface (or the trees) out to whatever its limit is. In other words, within the limits of prudence and safety, there's no such thing as being too close.
-Hugh
P.S. It'll be light, but some PGers are thinking about Daniel's Saturday...

[Dan T]

Ann,

Your first turn decision showed good conservative judgement. I am sure your observers would prefer to see you fly conservatively and risk sledding rather than turn too soon and risk hitting the trees. I doubt that a more aggressive first turn would have added more than an additional minute to your flight anyway.

Lots of factors influence the width of the lift band, including wind speed, direction and terrain among others. The Woodstock launch has a 'bench' out in front that triggers lift well in front of what most people unfamiliar with the site would consider to be the likely extent of the lift band.

Dan

[uplandann]

Ah! Great, thanks, Dan, that's just what I was wondering. I noticed that someone commented that the lift at Daniels that day was a little further in front of launch, and I was wondering if I had actually turned too soon, and missed it.
Can you turn in the 'bench lift' out front at Woodstock and still end up in the ridge lift, or are you out too far by then?

I'm also trying to work on efficient turns. I haven't had much feedback about it per se, so I'm just going by feel.

Ann

[RichH]

Yes wind velocity and wind direction and the slope of the mtn effect the size and height and shape of a lift ban..At most of our Mtn sites in a reasonable wind velocity (10-15mph) if straight in will result in a fairly large area of lift but all it takes is a shift in direction or a drop in velocity or flying onto a shallower slope and you can notice sometimes a dramatic difference.. On occassions we have some sites that even with a harty straight in wind the lift dissappears..that has sometimes been explained by what some think may be wave washout where a waves downside washes out the ridge lift on a paticular ridge or mtn..Something I've experienced several times at HighRock mostly in the fall or winter months at higher wind velocities 15-20 at launch.. Again, at most of our sites the lift ban on a fairly straight in day can be fairly large and you can take your time making your first turn to stay in the lift..Of course this is all a matter of degrees and with time and experience you'll recognize them yourself..