Woodstock Friday 10/29

[Matthew]

Hi Jesse,

Glad you got to fly at the end of the day. But what on God's Green Earth would prompt anyone in their right mid to show up at Woodstock at 9am to fly when the forecast was 10-15 with gusts to 30?

All forecasts showed it would probably back off after 4:30 as I posted earlier. But to get there so early thinking you could fly, that's just unfathonable!

Matthew

[Dan T]

I've been sitting here for 20 minutes arguing with myself about whether or not I should post to this thread. On one hand I've been reminding myself that I make it a practice not to criticize other pilots on a public forum. On the other hand I've been asking myself how I would feel if I end up having to live with the knowledge that speaking up might have prevented a fellow pilot from killing him or herself. In that light the decision was obvious.

There have been numerous threads over the past several months that have described flights and near flights in progressively less and less appropriate conditions. Read through them and you will find several references to "roughest conditions" or similar statements.

Everyone of us, myself included, becomes impatient to get flying after having set up and sat around for an hour or more. In my case at least this typically results in thoughts along the lines of "all hell the conditions are close enough and I'm already set up so maybe I'll just hook in and launch in a lull." The problem with that thinking is obvious, the prevailing conditions are still 20 with guests to 30 and those conditions are not suitable for a hang glider. Another condition not suitable for a novice level hang glider and novice level pilot is when the conditions are strong enough that the pilot can't keep from going backwards without flying faster than trim speed, particularly when the gusts have been so high.

Observers, don't forget that the H2s don't have the experience to respond as quickly and appropriately to changing conditions that you do, and also don't forget that no matter how much you tell them that they are the pilot in command, they are still looking to you for advice. Leave them a little wider safety factor.

I apologize for the rant but I see us heading in a troubling direction. Some of us have been in this sport long enough that we've mourned the loss of a fellow pilot or two. Let's not hurry the day when we mourn the next one.

Dan

[Matthew]

A specific concern I have is that pilots might be tyrying to get in the air before it becomes too strong to launch. This is a trend that has existed in the past. And if anyone is thinking that it's safe to launch early and' beat the winds' by getting into the air before things ramp up and it's too strong to launch, they are going to get hurt.

Matthew

[theflyingdude]

I've been sitting here for 20 minutes arguing with myself about whether or not I should post to this thread. On one hand I've been reminding myself that I make it a practice not to criticize other pilots on a public forum. On the other hand I've been asking myself how I would feel if I end up having to live with the knowledge that speaking up might have prevented a fellow pilot from killing him or herself. In that light the decision was obvious.

There have been numerous threads over the past several months that have described flights and near flights in progressively less and less appropriate conditions. Read through them and you will find several references to "roughest conditions" or similar statements.

Everyone of us, myself included, becomes impatient to get flying after having set up and sat around for an hour or more. In my case at least this typically results in thoughts along the lines of "all hell the conditions are close enough and I'm already set up so maybe I'll just hook in and launch in a lull." The problem with that thinking is obvious, the prevailing conditions are still 20 with guests to 30 and those conditions are not suitable for a hang glider. Another condition not suitable for a novice level hang glider and novice level pilot is when the conditions are strong enough that the pilot can't keep from going backwards without flying faster than trim speed, particularly when the gusts have been so high.

Observers, don't forget that the H2s don't have the experience to respond as quickly and appropriately to changing conditions that you do, and also don't forget that no matter how much you tell them that they are the pilot in command, they are still looking to you for advice. Leave them a little wider safety factor.

I apologize for the rant but I see us heading in a troubling direction. Some of us have been in this sport long enough that we've mourned the loss of a fellow pilot or two. Let's not hurry the day when we mourn the next one.

Dan

It's not a rant, Dan, it's just good solid judgment and a valid observation about the type of conditions that are suitable for H2's flying single-surface gliders. I received an e-mail yesterday from another Region 9 pilot (one of the best/most experienced pilots in the entire region) asking if I was following this Woodstock thread and marveling at the apparent cavalier attitude that seemed to be on display by some of the more experienced pilots/Observers. He had serious doubts about the wisdom of encouraging H2 pilots flying Falcons to show up at Woodstock on a day when the forecast was sketchy even for experienced pilots flying double-surface gliders.

And to Valerie I would say, "good call" choosing to stay home on a day like yesterday. Being cautious and conservative in this sport will serve you well and will greatly increase your chances for a long and healthy flying career. You may miss a few good days, but there will always be another day to have airborne fun!

JR

[jyoder111]

Bacil and I made plans on Wednesday to get there early since he had to be back in Rockville by 2pm. The plan was for him to fly first and in the slight chance conditions were suitable, he'd launch me in the late morning- I had the whole day free and could wait till Hugh and others showed up... As Friday approached and the forecast got stronger, it began to look less likely for the AM, but I figure any time out there on the mountain is a good learning experience, whether flying or not. When I stepped outside this morning at 7am there was a strong, cold wind in my face and I thought- "I'm probably not gonna fly today". But hey, might as well go check it out. H-2 hope reigns eternal, right?
Being up there early and talking to Bacil about meteorology and "times pilots have done stupid things" was very educational. I gained a hell of a lot of respect for the forces in the air above us, and it was a beautiful sight to boot.

In regards to my flight late in the day, I may not have a lot of experience, but the training on penetration was fresh in my mind. I stayed way out in front, had contingency LZs, and was constantly checking my progress and glide path. I watched cloud shadows along the roads and fields to judge wind speed at altitude, and I felt out sections of the ridge where I was able to penetrate more/less or gain/lose altitude more easily.

Perhaps I was overconfident and some will judge the choice to launch in those conditions as a poor decision, but I learned a lot and got to implement my training in a serious way! For you superstitious folks, it was my 13th mountain flight.

[DanTuck]

Another nice day at Woodstock. Arrived after 2:00 to chilly, strong conditions and we all got set up, with hopes of it backing down later in the evening as it often does. We were all prepared to break down up top and unfortunately Joe was on a schedule and couldn't wait. Fortunately for the rest of us the sacrifice was enough for the wind gods. As soon as Joe was done zipping up the bag the clouds broke up and it started to back off and after 30 minutes of 5-15mph I got hooked in. I launched and found the air a little bit sporty but nothing wild at all. Once you were 500' over, it got nice and smooth. After a while Jesse launched and we cruised around together out in front of the ridge. Hugh joined us before too long. I climbed up to 1,500' over and there I found widespread 600 fpm up. When it was still going at 1,800' over I decided it was possibly wave so I bailed. I stuffed it and came down easily to warmer altitude but I was still cold and didn't want to break down in the dark so I went out and landed. On final I bumped over to the right for some unknown reason just before I flared which was a real big help. But I swear I didn't touch the nose! Great flying Jesse, nice landing! Video later. Maybe.

[deveil]

one time a while back i had been 'holding forth' on something that i personally thought was important and jim wilson (who didn't know me) came on and said simply, "good stuff man."
it worked for me so i'll just pass it along.
good stuff man.
btw, it sounds to me that the all of you are actually on the same page and that it's a good thing that there are multiple voices.

garyD

[deveil]

more specifically, didn't mark pretty much speak to everyone's concerns/viewpoints in this post? and if one takes the 'show up' factor out of the equation isn't everyone pretty much on the same page?

If you look at a forecast and you do decide to give it a try on
a strong day, then be prepared NOT TO FLY. Because that forecast is.... Just a forecast.
And the 'Woodstock Effect' is not a guaranteed phenomenon.

Actual conditions might be stronger than forecast, to a point that the 'Woodstock Effect' is
overwhelmed. Or they might be about as forecast, such that the 'Woodstock Effect' can play
a role and make the day flyable. Or they might be lighter than forecast, leading to a great day
with no concerns about the winds at all.

I've flown at Woodstock on strong days with forecasts of gust-30 five times over the past 15 years.
Three of them were great flights. One was so-so. One was on the edge, can't say I enjoyed it at all.
For that last one: I should have paid closer attention to the actual conditions of the day, and
chosen not fly, even though it would blow a day of leave.
MarkC

garyD

[chuckok]

After the 2:00 weather update, and a call for backing down late, I decided to take the chance. I was headed to the LZ when I saw Ann heading out. I was back and forth with Roger on the cell phone, and we decided to meet on top. Everyone was hanging out getting cold, and hoping for a back off.

We did get a 20 min cycle where it looked like we were getting our wish, so I went back to the car to get the glider and set up. I was just about set up when Dan launched. It looked a little bumpy, but doable. When I saw Jesse launch, I started having second thoughts for my Falcon II; watched him head straight up, and some backward flying that raised my anxiety level for Falcon penetration.

It started to pick-up a bit as Hugh launched, and saw some wing walking as he fought the lift. So, Roger with his T2, me and my Falcon, another H2 with his Falcon (sincere apologies for forgetting your name, I’ve really got to get better at that) decided to wait and Ann bailed.

About 6:00, it backed down a bit again, but we had already started breaking down. With sunset at 6:45 and Jesse still parked in front of the ridge, I couldn’t see hoping to penetrate for a 10 min flight and dark breakdown. The other two made the same choice, break down on top.

When we didn’t see Jesse moving out until after we had packed up and locked down; we were a little worried about an after dark landing. (Glad you made it safe! And, thanks for the updates during the day!)

Chuck

[jyoder111]

Yeah, I had fun parallel parking on a hot spot over some rocks out in front. When I'd slip out the front side I'd just push out and backup into it again. When I'd drift out the back from flying too slow I'd just pull in and motor into it again. Granted, I'm on a Falcon 3 170 and hook in on the heavy side. Not sure how an F2 would have faired. There is a significant difference.

[rasmussenv]

I’m glad I stayed home and got some chores done! While I maybe would have gotten a nice flight, I don't think I missed anything stellar, since dark was descending by the time it got good - and I'm sad to think how early it will be getting dark soon. I like JR’s comment/reminder: there will always be another day to have airborne fun!”. I’m counting on it!

That said, I feel compelled to stick up for Hugh, as he was the only observer that was there through the afternoon from what I can tell. Yes, I’ve always heard him encourage us to come out and be there. But only in the context, as I’ve often seen in posts on this forum, that if you don’t go out you are guaranteed not to fly. I have never felt encouraged by him to actually launch when conditions were sketchy. He has held me back, suggesting we wait a bit, when I thought it looked okay. He encourages us to be there, but not to take unreasonable risks. Re-read his posts from this thread – he pointed out useful activities for H2’s even if they didn’t fly. Work wire crew, listen to advice, walk the LZ. And, not stated, but surely implicit, was the benefit of joining in the camaraderie and build hang gliding friendships. So a LITTLE bit I feel bad that I didn’t make it out there to finally meet Ann and spend time with the other H2s.

I just want to repeat that I have always felt that he advises safe flying, and I thank him profusely for his generous devotion of time to give us H2s a chance to get in flights, even when, at times, it interferes with his own flying. In the past six weeks I’ve seen him volunteere a lot of guidance to several H2s – he’s been invaluable to my growing experience in the local mountains. The safety warnings posted here are good, and I’ve been impressed over the year or so that I have lurked on the boards that safety is a recurring theme. Always a good reminder. But I don’t want anyone to think Hugh – or other observers - have been ingraining any cavalier attitudes about the decision to launch.

[Joe Schad]

I would have flown Woodstock friday had I not made a committment to be in Woodstock at 5:30 that evening. While I was there, which was most of the afternoon, no one exhibited a cavalier attitude about their decision to fly. Rather everyone assessed the conditions rather well in my view. In fact, I was impressed with the attitude and approach of the hang twos that were watching the day progress.

Joe

[mcelrah]

Once again, if you weren't there, you don't really know, now, do you?

I would like to thank Joe Schad for his excellent advice to me (the observer) and everyone *who was actually present*. On a couple of road trips out west, I gained tremendous respect for Joe's ability to read the weather on launch. Even though he had to leave without flying himself, Joe stuck around to help us evaluate the rate of moderation of the conditions and to help us launch. Using his digital windmeter, we saw 10-16 on launch, which is within Falcon criteria - and USHPA guidelines for H2 pilots (it is also fashionable - that's what you were trying to say, right Matthew? oh, "fathomable" - no, we use feet). Now I would like to point out that an observer does not "give permission" to launch - that's an individual decision - but we give advice. Jesse is midway to H3 and has experienced strong, turbulent conditions before. He flies a Falcon 3 170, which is amazingly capable compared to the old Falcon 1 (he was doing fine in conditions where I was using 3/4 VG on a U2 160). Jon Brantley, on the other hand, made a wise decision to stay on the ground: this would only have been his third mountain flight locally and he has the larger F3 195 (and about the same hook-in weight as Jesse).

Now it's true that conditions do sometimes ramp back up after a "sucker lull" - we saw that earlier in the day - but the frequency and severity of gusts were progressively decreasing. If the criterion is cast-iron certainty that nothing bad will happen - well then you should get out of this sport, stay home and watch professional "sports" on television. What we are "observing", by the way, are demonstrated skills - importantly the ability to judge conditions - justifying award of the next higher rating. If H2/P2s never experience any but moderate conditions, what will happen when they become H3/P3s?

I would encourage pilots with longer experience to shoulder the leaden mantle of responsibility and get appointed as observers. It is sobering - but also tremendously rewarding, even at the cost of personal flying.

My wing-walking was pilot induced: I was using barmitts, which somehow interfered with my coordination. Once I took my gloved hands out, the PIOs stopped...

I'm still reading the Woodstock Sunday string, but yes, Ann and Jon (and Valerie - thanks for the vote of confidence), I expect to come out tomorrow and will observe.

- Hugh

[deveil]

yeah...well..i Still think your ponytail is too long. .and what's with that red volvo? i mean really - who uses a volvo as a hang gliding vehicle. gawd.

garyDang-that-boy-is-articulate(hate him, just hate him )

[mcelrah]

A liberal, upper-income elderly (show some respect!) yuppie, that's who! Hey - no one even noticed that I shaved! (Wife's complaining finally got to me.)

Best sign at the Sanity rally (reported in WashPost - yes I still take a physical newspaper - I was duty officer at the sailplane club, so did not personally attend - hate crowds anyway): "America, it's worth it: stop whining and pay your taxes!"

- Hugh

[Matthew]

I'm sorry for my lack of diplomacy and I'm especially sorry for putting Jesse in the crossfire. For the record, I'm not dissing anyone-- I'm criticising the decision to think you can fly early in the day when the forecast is for gusts to 30.


Matthew

[theflyingdude]

I'm sorry for my lack of diplomacy and I'm especially sorry for putting Jesse in the crossfire. For the record, I'm not dissing anyone-- I'm criticising the decision to think you can fly early in the day when the forecast is for gusts to 30.


Matthew

Ditto for me, as well.

JR

[XCanytime]

I'm sorry for my lack of diplomacy and I'm especially sorry for putting Jesse in the crossfire. For the record, I'm not dissing anyone-- I'm criticising the decision to think you can fly early in the day when the forecast is for gusts to 30.


Matthew

Point well taken. But the fact of the matter is that you can't assume just because a Hang 2 is showing up at 9A with an observer that he is trying to beat the winds. As Jesse stated, he was there to assist me in launching and to pick me up wherever I landed. I made the decision not to fly for many reasons, but a deciding factor was that the sky was almost a carbon copy of Father's Day 2009 when Janni saw angels above the wave clouds and got himself in a pickle when the blue holes started to fill up. And the fact that it was thermonuclear in the atmosphere. I didn't need that much excitement. Jesse and I did the same thing a week before, 10/22, where he met me early (10:30A) at Woodstock, and assisted me in launching and picked me up at Karmy's airstrip. He got to fly after things subsided on 10/22 (3:30P). So his plan on 10/29 was to wait for it to subside way later in the day. And it did. And he flew. Jesse is on top of it. I have observed Jesse twice and I am impressed with his strong takeoffs, following the flight plans to a T, and his attitude towards safety and always leaving himself an out.

And on the subject of cavalier attitudes, anybody who knows me well enough knows I DON'T have a cavalier attitude towards safety. Granted, I've been flying in some strong stuff recently, but that was my choice. You may think I'm crazy for flying in strong turbulence (and you may be a bit right), but you are going to get turbulence when there is strong lift. As long as you maintain SA and leave yourself an out, you are doing good. And I'm reporting on the conditions so others can learn from my flight reports whether they want to fly in that stuff in the future. That's a main function of a flight report. That's not a cavalier attitude, that's just reporting the facts. Plain and simple. Stop trying to read into it more than that. Bacil

[deveil]

well,as brian hasn't jumped in and provided his usual summation i suppose i could give it a shot. where's he been anyway?
'guess bacil articulated that rather well also. And he doesn't drive a volvo. i've really nothing against volvos (they're actually fords after all). i just think it takes away from the wild and crazy aura of hg pilots. it's bad enough that so many of you are sporting grey hair and bad prostates (can't figure out which smiley face would work here, so feel free to pick your own).
anywho, back to doing brian's job. all in all it's probably good for a little clearing of the air to occur now and then. 'gets the inevitable misimpressions, misinterpretations, etc. that mark periodically reminds us are bound to occur in using this form of communication. so, hopefully, people should be feeling more confident and comfortable that the sport is being handled in the way we all pretty obviously want it to be. so that's a good thing. and that's about as inarticulate as i'm willing to be at the moment. you two are a tough act to follow.

garyD

you all were getting worried that i was about to propose a group hug weren't you.

[deveil]

by the way, if you have a dog or a cat, it's a good reason to get a mac notebook. the pup just darted upstairs to investigate some sound or smell or something and ran right through the power cord. it's not connected mechanically, rather it's held in place magnetically. no harm no foul. pretty cool.

garyD

[Matthew]

OK Bacil. But I stand by my orignal theme--

going out with the intention to fly early in the day-- or during peak heating of the day-- when the forecast is for gusts to 30mph, even at Woodstock, is UNACCPETABLY DANGEROUS!

Matthew

[deveil]

just remember, if all else fails . . . one can agree to disagree.

over and out
garyDespairing

[dbodner]

Y'all know it's a sad state of affairs when Gary is the voice of reason.

[deveil]

yeah, well, i'm still chuckling, laughing aloud actually as i write this.
good one dave
yessiree, good one.
asshole

gary

[deveil]

still laughing
asshole