Woodstock?

[uplandann]

Winds are forecast to be W 5-10. (Only 30% chance of precip.). Anyone interested?

Ann

[mcelrah]

Hi Ann,

I saw this too late. Actually I was at Front Royal flying sailplanes yesterday. Woodstock really takes a northwest. Two paragliders went to Dickie's Ridge (north end of Skyline Drive) which takes west and southwest wind. (There's a site guide in the members-only section with a good wind diagram and each site write-up includes that info.) "Course what usually happens is someone like Bacil or Matthew posts that it will be good at a site and the rest of us just pile on. Keep trying!

- Hugh (observer)
301 980-6381 (cell)

P.S. At the airport, we received a garbled police report that a "hang-glider" had "crashed" on I-66. It was Tom C. and his paraglider, entirely under control, but low and he had no choice but the median.

[theflyingdude]

He was flying a PG and had no choice but interstate median? Putting yourself in a situation like that sounds rather like poor judgement or poor decision-making on the pilot's part.

JR

[mcelrah]

"Judge not that ye be not judged." None of us was there. - Hugh

[theflyingdude]

"Judge not that ye be not judged." None of us was there. - Hugh

Judge away, but it still sounds like a case of 3P (piss-poor planning) or worse and consider the potential for risk to motorists being distracted while driving. It's also bad publicity and costs the taxpayers when emergency personnel have to respond to the scene of the "crash". And how does someone flying a paraglider (or even a hang glider) get into a situation where they have to land on an interstate median (absent a control failure and/or a canopy deployment), unless they put themselves in that situation to begin with?

It ain't rocket science, my friend.

JR

[RichH]

I dont find myself agreeing with JR very often but in this case he is right on...Really there is no good reason a pilot should find it neccessary to land on a median..The 1st rule we all have to abide by is always creating a plan that includes suitable landing fields and possible bail out fields..If we fail to do so is when usually that will occur..I also feel the same way about pilots flying though major airspace in pursuit of long distance flights...Both are the result of poor planning!!

[mcelrah]

I have flown at Black Horse Canyon east of San Diego. The approach to the legit LZ is right over the interstate. Truckers honk as you are on final. It's fun.

You notice the paraglider pilots don't post on this forum; this is why. If you want to conduct a thorough post-mortem on the flight and second guess the pilot's decisions after gaining at least some knowledge of the situation, be my guest - but don't expect him to agree to talk to you. Your data-free opinions are unconvincing. Don't you have anything better to do, like go out and fly?

- Hugh

[RichH]

Come on Hugh lighten up!! its a learning experience for everyone who reads the forum..I dont know too many pilots that haven't made mistakes..Its through looking at what we could have done to prevent bad experiences that hopefully they wont happen again to someone else..

[theflyingdude]

Not trying to fan the flames here, Hugh, but my opinion about someone landing on an interstate median isn't entirely "data-free". Besides the information posted by you:

" P.S. At the airport, we received a garbled police report that a "hang-glider" had "crashed" on I-66. It was Tom C. and his paraglider, entirely under control, but low and he had no choice but the median.";

the pilot himself posted the following account on another thread in this forum (so apparently they do post on occasion):

"Some of the PG flew Dickeys Ridge today Sunday. We had a storm south messing up the weather but at 4P all was clear and the cirrus was also gone. Air went Magic till beyond sunset. We also flew Dickeys Ridge at Saturday, quite good with an inversion that broke later on the day and some I-66 entertainment for automobiles. Some drivers even called 911, a popular number it looks like. And the local sheriff is really a good guy giving us rides when possible."

Are you suggesting that flying across the interstate to land in the main LZ for Black Horse Canyon east of San Diego is no different than choosing to land on the median of that same interstate? Of course you're not, so we can just call that what it is, a straw man fallacy. I don't think we need a thorough post-mortem of the pilot's flight to conclude that putting himself in a position where landing on an interstate median as the only option if he got low is anything but poor planning and/or bad judgement. What else could you call it? It's not as if he was flying over Donner Pass with jagged 14K peaks all around.

And BTW, I was not trying to convince anyone about anything. I was simply making an observation based upon the available information (and then I went flying).

JR

[RichH]

Just an observation but why does there seem to be such resistance to offer other pilots constructive feedback..Honestly, if I make a mistake or have an issue in my skill level I hope that someone would point it out so that I could correct it..I've noticed that since returning to the sport of hang gliding last year that the culture has been not to offer suggestions..I guess I would challenge that and ask why?? the end result is to have all of us flying safer ..not putting ourself, our sites or others at risk..I hope the comment in this thread about dont u have anything better to do?? like go out and fly!! doesn't suggest that it isn't a worthy pursuit to try and comment on how another pilot could have done some action better or more safely..Or possibly there is a belief that we dont have enough experience to comment?? I would say that if thats the belief you would be seriously misguided .. A recent example comes to mind, I was out flying the other day and I noticed a pilot coming into his landing approach rather slowly (bar at trim speed): Now it was a fairly turbulent mid-day with active thermals in the landing field and a fairly strong wind 10-15 on the ground and gusty.. The kind of conditions not to be flying trim speed as you come into your final approach...I watched as the pilot landed safely but the whole time I was nervous for him knowing that a thermal gust or turbulance at the tree line level or wind shadow from the up wind tree line may stall him with sever consequences ..yet no one at the field said anything to him!! I finally walked up and just made some suggestions ..and explained the concerns about flying too slowly and that a little speed entering your final leg goes a long way in adding a degree of safety and prevention..My hope is that it may improve his chances if he runs into those same circumstances again..So I would suggest that as a community we would take a more proactive stance in helping each other grow in our sport!! Dont wait for the other guy to say something..

[Flying Lobster]

Hmmmm If my foggy memory serves correct (it might not)--many moons ago a certain hang glider pilot make a certain long xc flight from a certain Cumberland site and I think also landed in a certain highway median. I don't seem to recall any protests being raised by anyone in the various clubs. Not defending the practice--just something to think about.

marc

[theflyingdude]

Hmmmm If my foggy memory serves correct (it might not)--many moons ago a certain hang glider pilot make a certain long xc flight from a certain Cumberland site and I think also landed in a certain highway median. I don't seem to recall any protests being raised by anyone in the various clubs. Not defending the practice--just something to think about.

marc

Your memory is apparently better than mine (which isn't saying much). Having lived in Cumberland for the past 25 years, I can't remember any long x-c flights, or any flights for that matter, that have terminated with a landing on a interstate highway median. Do tell...

JR

[Flying Lobster]

Hmmmm If my foggy memory serves correct (it might not)--many moons ago a certain hang glider pilot make a certain long xc flight from a certain Cumberland site and I think also landed in a certain highway median. I don't seem to recall any protests being raised by anyone in the various clubs. Not defending the practice--just something to think about.

marc

Your memory is apparently better than mine (which isn't saying much). Having lived in Cumberland for the past 25 years, I can't remember any long x-c flights, or any flights for that matter, that have terminated with a landing on a interstate highway median. Do tell...

JR

Ahh...the names are of pilots involved are irrelevant (definitely wasn't me) but there is a certain direction over the mountains over the back where the landing options become extremely limited (on second thought the xc distance might not have been that long) and the pilot made the judgment that landing on the median was a better option than restricted hillsides after the glide didn't quite work out.

I've never landed on a median (except at an airport)--but I have landed in a field directly adjacent to a highway perhaps a half dozen times--including a glide over the road on approach. A sincere question--is that just as bad?

marc

[Flying Lobster]

There was that one time I landed in the parking lot of a Taco Bell in the winter for hot coffee and was surrounded by troopers, sheriffs and police. That definitely was not a good idea.

marc

[davidtheamazing1]

The issue with a freeway median is that you very clearly aren't allowed to be there - except in emergencies. If you were driving by and saw someone parked, standing in, or parachuting into a median, I think an average motorist could assume that there is/was a problem.

If you land next to an interstate, its a different situation, because presumably there is a safe way to enter and exit an adjacent field, and there's also no way for a motorist to randomly know if someone is supposed to be landing there or not.

[Flying Lobster]

Hmmm...so if you sunk out--there were apparently no safe field options (let's forget the semantics of flight planning options--if you fly xc long enough it'll happen to you eventually) and you saw an acceptable space in a median, you would still not land there?

marc

[RichH]

Never heard of anyone landing in a median flying out of Cumberland ! Flown a large number of x-c flights here and in the north east out of Vt where landing fields can be few and far between (in gliders with L/D much lower than we are flying today..like a comet for ex)..never had to land somwhere like a median...So i think your anaylsis of it will someday happen to you isnt so my friend!! Not to say that shit doesn't happen ..it does and it can!! the deal here is to put in best practices that minimize the risks!! No one wants to verbally whip anyone,..just want to highlight that the best practice is too always fly within striking distance of bailout fields ..On xc flights you should always try to fly from acceptable landing field to the next..and when ever possible scout your proposed route so not to fly into restricted areas..

[RichH]

Hmmm...so if you sunk out--there were apparently no safe field options (let's forget the semantics of flight planning options--if you fly xc long enough it'll happen to you eventually) and you saw an acceptable space in a median, you would still not land there?

marc

The point is ..not to screw up that badly ..but lets say I did and needed to get the glider and myself down in one piece I would consider all options including landing in a median if I had to..Here in Maryland and in Virginia that state is full of farm fields and its really hard for me to believe that there were not other options...

[Flying Lobster]

I don't think the pilot in question--a former Belgian champion and very frequent xc pilot who probably flies more xc than most current region 9 pilots--"plans" on landing in medians as a regular lz option. But it doesn't take much for your plans to go awry if a sudden change in wind direction or velocity changes everything. I'm not questioning the wisdom of keeping lz's in reach--just that one day--inevitably--things will change and take you by surprise.

marc

[theflyingdude]

Hmmmm If my foggy memory serves correct (it might not)--many moons ago a certain hang glider pilot make a certain long xc flight from a certain Cumberland site and I think also landed in a certain highway median. I don't seem to recall any protests being raised by anyone in the various clubs. Not defending the practice--just something to think about.

marc

Your memory is apparently better than mine (which isn't saying much). Having lived in Cumberland for the past 25 years, I can't remember any long x-c flights, or any flights for that matter, that have terminated with a landing on a interstate highway median. Do tell...

JR

Ahh...the names are of pilots involved are irrelevant (definitely wasn't me) but there is a certain direction over the mountains over the back where the landing options become extremely limited (on second thought the xc distance might not have been that long) and the pilot made the judgment that landing on the median was a better option than restricted hillsides after the glide didn't quite work out.

I've never landed on a median (except at an airport)--but I have landed in a field directly adjacent to a highway perhaps a half dozen times--including a glide over the road on approach. A sincere question--is that just as bad?

marc

As I mentioned, your memory is apparently better than mine as I have no recollection of any pilots flying from Cumberland that ended up having to land on an interstate median. Since you're a little shy on the details about who, when and where, I'll just have to claim ignorance of said event (or damaged brain cells), but if it happened, I would have the same opinion about the wisdom of such a decision.

To answer your question, landing in a field next to a highway is not illegal and generally doesn't result in people calling 911 about a "crash landing", so I would not have the same opinion about the wisdom of that decision. In fact, I would admit to having more than one of those landings, myself. And you can't forget the "semantics of flight planning options" to explain away a poor decision or bad judgement in having to use the median of an interstate as a landing option. Isn't that part and parcel of the entire process when you're flying x-c? You should always have a suitable LZ within gliding distance just in case you sink out and I would not consider an interstate median as a "suitable" option, especially for someone flying a foot-launched aircraft in the eastern U.S. where there should be options galore if you choose an appropriate x-c route. It sounds like you're defending, or at least rationalizing, the pilot's decision to land on the interstate which is obviously your prerogative, but I still disagree and believe the pilot shouldn't have put himself in that position in the first place, i.e. 3P.

JR

[Flying Lobster]

Putting my advanced instructor's hat on I absolutely agree with the necessity of keeping landing options within reach during an xc--but the reality is that there is always a risk equation in the event "things change" which then demand quick and decisive improvisation. I've never known a single free-flight pilot with flawless xc decision making capabilities--one reason we keep doing it, I guess.

marc

[theflyingdude]

I don't think the pilot in question--a former Belgian champion and very frequent xc pilot who probably flies more xc than most current region 9 pilots--"plans" on landing in medians as a regular lz option. But it doesn't take much for your plans to go awry if a sudden change in wind direction or velocity changes everything. I'm not questioning the wisdom of keeping lz's in reach--just that one day--inevitably--things will change and take you by surprise.

marc

I don't think being a "former Belgian champion" precludes one from making poor decisions. In fact, that actually makes it seem even more ludacris, as someone with those credentials should know better. Here's a bit of conjecture on my part, he probably intended to use the interstate median as a bail-out option all along, knowing if he didn't get up he could always land there and chose his route accordingly. That's the "or worse" portion of my earlier assessment.

JR

[Flying Lobster]

Well, I've conjectured my two cents worth. I'm done. : )

marc

[XCanytime]

As one of the best pilots ever (Chuck Yeager) said many moons ago "Always leave yourself an out". And cavalier attitudes can become hazardous attitudes .

Bacil

[Flying Lobster]

...cavalier attitudes can become hazardous attitudes .

Bacil

I assume you're not referring to me?

marc