High Rock structure in need of repair

[DanTuck]

Brian,
When I spoke with the county folks, they were already on the wooden ramp track. From what I gathered (Hugh can confirm), during Hugh's initial conversation with Jim Sterling, it was Jim who suggested the wooden ramp over repairs to the concrete cube. And the input from the veterans has been that the ramp was always better, even that a new wooden ramp was proposed to replace the one that burned down but was denied during the permitting process which resulted in the concrete cube.

We seem to be dealing with a different group of people at the county this time who are more open-minded. However, the truth is, it will only take one county official to derail the ramp proposal and I think it is a good idea to have a contingency plan ready. My impression is that Jim and Joe are on our team to get a new ramp approved and will help get our design through the process. If we do get stopped in our tracks by some official, we are back to re-doing the cube, which would most likely be considered a repair, no permitting involved. But Hugh's right, we still need some expertise to do concrete work. Calling Greg Sessa...you out there? This may be your time to shine....

[stevek]

My point was that the cube is a lot sturdier than it looks. Ten years from now I think it would look the same -- maybe another piece or two gets broken off . We don't need to do anything. The county thinks that we think there is an issue. We approached them. Why replace a perfectly serviceable launch with another launch that offers nothing more than what we now have?

[Matthew]

Steve,

Take a drive up to the rock or take a look again at the pictures of the current state of the cube. That thing is falling to pieces faster thant the ice shelves of the antarctic. It's a safety hazard right now.

Matthew

[g.sessa]

Brian,
But Hugh's right, we still need some expertise to do concrete work. Calling Greg Sessa...you out there? This may be your time to shine....

I have been tracking the thread. I do work in the concrete industry and would be happy to offer insight if the direction is pursued to re-build / repair the concrete launch. My problem is that I have never been to the sight, and can only rely on the pictures. If the group is looking for a long lasting, durable option, concrete is a good way to go, as long as the right concrete mix is placed and finished properly. I can see several reasons why the structure in place is failing (eroding sub base, concrete scaling, rebar corrosion, etc.). Weathering, and especially freeze/thaw cycles, will only help to worsen the problem in the future. I do not know the type of concrete used (strength, air entrained, etc.) or the finishing techniques applied, but in my opinion a patch job would not fix the problem. Proper sub base prep and concrete replacement would be a better approach.

The company I work for is a concrete supplier and we do have a plant in Woodsboro, MD. I could secure a discounted rate for concrete and work out delivery details, assuming a Ready Mix truck could make it to the site (again I have never been there and do not know the terrain). Assistance would just be needed with the design plan, site prep, formwork and placement.

Now, with that said, I have launched at the Pulpit and I like the deck. Based on what I have read and seen in the pictures, I seem to be more in favor of a similar deck structure. Either way, I would be happy to help in any way I can.

[mcelrah]

Thanks Greg. You are now our official concrete consultant. I note that you think the present degraded structure is not salvageable. I think a big truck could probably be jockeyed into position around the rocks, but building and properly bracing forms in that spot would be non-trivial... - Hugh

[stevek]

I have looked at it. Recently.

I propose an experiment: Call off the dozers for a year. I will measure (and caulk) the cracks. I will measure them again in the spring. I will report new cracks. I will provide pics of everything both times. Look at it again at this time next year. This will give you a statistical baseline and permit an objective reading of the rate of deterioration. Revisit the issue next year at this time.

I should note that I don't have any particular attachment to the cube. A ramp is fine.

[brianvh]

Sigh.

It's not just the cracks. It's the absence of material holding up the top surface. It's the chunks that have already fallen off the front. When chunks of concrete are falling off, a little caulking will not do the job. I'm no expert, but based on photographic evidence a real expert thinks we should call in the dozers. I respect the scientific approach, but I think it's beyond that.

Everyone's first impulse was to patch it. Then it sunk in that it's not a block, it's a 4 inch thick crust of concrete over fill, which happens to be leaking out. When some water finds its way in there and freezes the block will begin to look like the north pole ice cap, which ain't in very good shape right now.

[stevek]

Brian. That's exactly what will happen eventually -- several years. But it is certainly possible to patch it when that happens. We could keep it going forever if need be. If we can get a permit IN HAND to replace it with a ramp or another concrete structure (I don't care which) fine. But I think it is foolish to proceed without an actual signed, stamped permit. What we have is not a danger to life and limb (other than the fact that it is a launch ramp of course). Catastrophic collapse is not an issue. I don't think we should be relying on the assurances of a county employee that they will let us build something there.

[g.sessa]

Maybe I can try to elaborate on my earlier post. First, let me state that I am a fan of statistical analysis and arithmetic to support decision making, especially when it involves capital investments. I also understand this option is a fall back at the moment, and thus this maybe a mute point, but here is some food for thought.

I am under the impression the group is looking for a safe structure that will last for some time. I don’t necessarily think the existing structure will collapse today or tomorrow, but it is certainly failing. A quick patch job, or duck tape solution, in my opinion will have very minimal effect on improving (or stabilizing) the conditions of the slab. The end result will be same. The integrity of the structure will continue to remain questionable, continue to erode, and the bottom line is that the structure will remain a hazard. Too little, too late. Remember there is a lot more happening than what is apparent on the surface. The type of failures I see in this slab do take place over time, correct, but this has been happening since the slab was poured years ago. Proper repairs would help, but in my opinion, proper prep and replacement would be a much more cost effective and longer lasting solution, if approved and persued. I would be happy to provide more technical details, if needed, as to why I believe the structure is failing, the cause, what to expect in the future, etc. but I’d rather not bore the majority of pilots. The key is to work around the permitting, and bureaucratic issues, to determine a solution that satisfies all involved while ensuring the safety of the pilots and any on lookers is met. If we need to explore alternatives to replacement, we can do so, but in my opinion this is not an advisable place to start.

I would think, however, at the very least, a type of removable barrier (i.e. posts with chains in place when not in use, and removed by pilots when needed) would hopefully help to deter some unnecessary foot traffic until a plan of action is determined. This does not help the situation, but hopefully it would help to create awareness of the potential for danger.

[Gene]

We should throw Mr. Sessa off the rock. I think it has to do with wuffo's pulling rocks out to throw of the edge too. Greg is going to be a great asset to the community. We need to get Greg to HR and have his first launch off the Rock. Yea baby! Gene

[mcelrah]

That is IF the authorities have not already taped off and placarded the site as CLOSED. Anybody know? - Hugh

[brianvh]

Actually Greg, I think the majority of pilots would be very interested to know the details. This is a structure which is very dear to us...kind of like telling the family of a cancer patient "it doesn't look good, but I don't want to bore you with the details." Parking lot concrete, we'd be bored. This, no.

[stevek]

I hope you guys are right. I hope the county comes thru. I think you are all missing the main point: It is not about what we want or think is best, it is about what the county will let us do. I guess I am not as optimistic that having once closed the site down (I guess this should happen any day now) we can get it reopened. IMHO we would be much better off if the Rock was open and operating while we discussed eventual replacement or major repairs with the county.

[dbodner]

it is about what the county will let us do.

I don't think there's any disagreement. We can only do what the county lets us.

we would be much better off if the Rock was open and operating while we discussed

I guess so. But, I was scared looking at the hollowing out of the structure (and the photos). I think we did the right thing by informing the county. If the county feels the need to fence off the site, it's their call. Not ours. I don't think any of us asked for them to shut us down. Maybe they'll never let us re-open, which would be an irony considering it was the county that forced the previous crew to weaken the cube. But, given the state of the cube (is that our only real disgreement?), I'm comfortable our caution was necessary.

[brianvh]

I agree. We'd come across as irresponsible custodians if we didn't point out we thought some major work needed to be done. I think by this very action we got the county on our side. Should know in a couple of weeks if Dan's plans come though and are submitted.

[stevek]

Not impugning anybody's motives but it was certainly the wrong decision. It needs to be reversed. There may still be time. Call the county and tell them that we have decided that there is no immediate danger of collapse. Tell them that we will monitor the situation and let them know if anything changes.

[brianvh]

The complete lack of herd mentality is why we love you so much, Steve.

I don't see how we can go back and say we no longer think the slab is a danger unless we can back the statement up. The people from the county looked at it and apparently didn't like what they saw. All the scary looking stuff happened in the last year, so waiting around another year to make tests may not look so good. Like it or not, we're committed.

[mcelrah]

I've got a couple of the big hair-dryer looking brain-washing machines for expunging the idea that anything is wrong from the county officials' minds. - Hugh

[Danny Brotto]

Guys

It is a very bad idea to pontificate on a public forum about the safety or lack of it due to the seeming deterioration of the cube. If a spectator were to injure himself or herself and legal recourse pursued, independent of the root cause being any deterioration, our little public “discussion” would not serve the defense well.

If there is any question that the cube deterioration could be injurious to a spectator then the cube should be condemned. If this is not palatable or necessary then this discourse should be struck from the record.

Danny Brotto

[Kurt Hirrlinger]

I wouldn't let your hang strap get all in a twist over legalities, whatever was underneath the cube before hang
gliderers showed up would probably be suffering a similar demise. "Mountains crumble to the sea". Besides,
it was constructed under the design specifications of Washington county (no reinforcing steel), they should be
as concerned as we are.
I do share Steve's concern of closing it before reconstruction, we should get a commitment from the county
before we do anything. And if HR is, in fact, the oldest operating launch site in the country we should use that
to help solicit aid through USHPA. I've donated to a couple site funds and won a raffle prize once.
Whatever you decide to build, both Glen & I are contractors and are here to help.

[mcelrah]

Wow! Thanks for coming forward Kurt! (We had thought of Glenn, but he's not on internet, I think.)

Steve K. and I visited the Rock yesterday (Friday). It was open and conditions were launchable, but lacking a quorum, we elected to fly at the Pulpit rather than risk unassisted launches at the Rock.

Looking at it some more, we agreed that the crust on the top of the cube is pretty tough (demolition for the "deck" plan is going to be non-trivial) and may last longer than we think, but given that the county says they can expedite permits based on Dan's CAD drawings and since it was the county who brought up the idea of a synthetic wood-like decking, we will let that process run. If things go awry, we will keep a concrete option in reserve, although at least one concrete expert says that putting a bandaid on the current structure is not gonna work. The county is looking for us to supply the funds, labor, plans, materials - they like anything that doesn't require them to expend any money. I have asked if they could contribute some machinery (say a front loader) or something to assist in demolition, but have not gotten any firm "yes" - just the caution that county employees would have to operate the machinery, and that means Monday-Friday 8-4. (Dan got a similar reaction I think.) So we may need some contractor experience on what to rent and how to approach the demolition (how to do it without endangering ourselves as we work and how to keep debris from falling down the cliff).

- Hugh

[DanTuck]

UPDATE - No, I haven't dropped this project. The design is 90% finished and we've started on the drawings. I'm going to make another visit this weekend, probably tomorrow afternoon, to take some final measurements and elevations. I could use a hand if anyone is free, especially if you have experience with measuring elevation. I know how to do it with string and a tape but instruments would be far better. Any surveyors in our ranks? Still, I could use a helper if nothing else. Sunday actually looks like it might be decent at the Pulpit if they'll kick it up a notch or two. So I'm thinking tomorrow after the rain is through, head up to the Rock and try to get what I need. We should be able to complete the plans next week in that case. One thing that has been mentioned but needs more discussion is demolition of the existing pad. I think jackhammers are what we need to break it up but I don't really know. The steel grates that the pad was poured on are of concern. I think we will need some heavy machinery to move the grates encrusted with concerte. When/if we get our plans approved, I will approach Jim Sterling about providing some of the equipment and operators.

[mcelrah]

Brilliant, Dan! I think the big rock in front of the stairs might deter a drunk truckdriver, don't you? - Hugh

[DanTuck]

I think any reasonable person would be deterred....
re demolition safety - I imagine that's really all about what equipment we operate. Safety harnesses are simple.
re keeping the debris under control - good question. With the slab on a slope, I can see it all wanting to roll off the front. dunno
Greg, do you know concrete demo also? Any recommendations (without having seen the site yet)?

[dbodner]

My recollection is that the ground below the cube is full of garbage. Maybe the county wouldn't be too upset if large chunks of concrete end up down there, too. It might camouflage the broken beer bottles.