Ridge Soaring

[RichH]

A pilot launches from the woodstock launch with the idea of seeing how quick he can get to the end of the ridge 40 miles to the south. He launches his Wills Wing Atack Duck at 3:15 pm and immediately turns south. The wind velocity is 10-15 at launch with a slight north cross. He eases out the bar realizing he needs to gain apprx. 2000 ft above launch to comfortably make the first gap upwind..half way across he pulls in for speed and connects with short mtn just below ridge top he pulls the bar in and doesn't let up except to cross the gaps along the way..He stays below ridge top level thinking the wind will be more vertical there and he can make better time not fighting a horizontal flow..The ridge is flashing by quickly and after an hour he has made the end of the ridge and lands in the farm next to rt 33. That flight starts him to think about the possiblity to link ridges in an possibly even wave in the attempt to go further. A few months later in Nov. of that same year he launches from High Rock late in the day and hour or so before sunset. It has been blown out all day but the wind has died off at the end of the day and a few pilots launch to get a short flight ..Those pilots find no ridge lift to their surprise and make their way to the landing field. One pilot hits light lift at 400ft above the landing field and slowly works it above launch where the lift smoothes to a steady 400 ft per min. up.. The pilot slowly climbs to 8000 ft above launch and was continuing to climb when unfortunately he was running out of day light. Obviously, what he encountered was wave..To this day I wonder if it would be possible to link these two experiences in a flight along the ridges. Sailplanes have been doing this for years but of course, their speed range and L/D is far greater than ours..but is it with in our current hang gliders capabilities to utilize these experiences to go down ridge possibly linking riges together for flights of hundreds of miles. I wonder...RH

[Dan T]

It would be really interesting to see the big guns weigh in on this one.

One of the things that the ECC and other contests illuminate is the fact that the experts typically make goals that the rest of us consider to be out of reach. They do this in part by flying as teams through much of the course. They also do it because they expect to make goal and fly accordingly.

I suspect that a concerted team effort to fly these routes will yield flights that were previously unheard of in this part of the country. I'd love to be invited to join a team and give it a try.

Dan T

[XCanytime]

Nelson Lewis did just that on August 6, 2004, where he flew 151 miles linking Peters Mt. in WV where he launched, with Clinch Mt. in SW Virginia/E Tennessee. Flight time 7 hours +. He and others had been dreaming of this flight, dubbed "The Mission", for almost 20 years. Timing and drive and skills and glider must all come together for such a flight. 3 out of 4 won't get it.

Bacil

[RichH]

It is totally within reason to think that with our current gliders a pilot could launch from the ridges along rt. 220 in Penn. lets say near Bald Eagle Ridge and launching @ 8 or even 9am fly south with a slight tail component (NNW)and achieve some decent distance before the peak of the day hits..by then arriving at cumberland md. you could fly over to the Zirks ridge and thermal up to capture the classic wave that sets up in the valley in front of the mtns there..Climbing up to 10 or 12 or even 15+ thousand feet you can surf the wave into WV and hook up with the Peters mtn range and proceed onto the Clinch or thermal back to the Walker mtn range which can take you into N.C...This was the discussion that was first dicussed in 1982 w/ Tim Donovan from N.H...Which started ''The Mission",,He took the ball and ran with it hooking up with Nelson and others (some Pilots out of Cumberland Md.) on some classic flights from Peters Mtn..Several flights exceeding 100 miles have occured utilizing this strategy..but none that I'm awear of have utilized the Mtns in Pa along rt 220.. I believe that a 200 + mile flight could happen flying ridges early in the day covering many miles before the day becomes productive..Hooking into thermals at the peak of the day opens the option of flying down wind to hook up with other ridges to proceed south..Sounds like a pipe dream, maybe so! maybe not! Glider pilots have been flying this exact course for years and as our current gliders increase there speed ranges and L/D it certainly opens the possibilities.

[Paul Tjaden]

Interesting topic. I believe that great flights are sometimes made just because someone has the audacity to think he can do it. On both of my attempts to fly the Woodstock Ridge to the south end, I had incredible conditions and made it easily staying stinking high the entire time. Although there may have been time to turn and fly back, it never entered my mind. I was just happy to make it and no one had ever done such a thing. The next year, Kevin Carter flew the first down and back flight here because it didn't occur to him that he couldn't.
2007 Spring in Florida, Lauren and I were hoping for a long XC to the north. CW said that the big flights were made to the NW with SE winds. We got such a day and flew north but conditions weren't that good so we landed about 50 miles out. The next day showed winds shifting to the SW. CW says that doesn't work for the big flights so we stay on the ground. This was the day that Jonny Durand and Dustin Martin shattered the Florida Record with a flight of 285? miles. Dustin wasn't going because he believed (as we all did) that it wouldn't work. Jonny had no reason to doubt so he convinced Dustin to give it a try and they damn near made it to South Carolina.

[theflyingdude]

In theory, a ridge-run flight starting in PA and progressing south is possible. Sailplanes have made that run multiple times. The problem with trying to do it on a hang glider is the lack of speed and glide (in comparison to a sailplane, anyway). There are substantial gaps in the ridge that would have to be crossed early in the flight, most notably at Altoona and Bedford, PA and it's unlikely a HG would be able to make those jumps, particularly early in the day when there's a minimal amount of convective lift. Another issue would be the amount of northwesterly wind that would be needed. The sailplanes generally fly that route when the forecast is for very strong winds (NW 20 - 30+) and you'd need pretty large cajones to fly a HG in those conditions. Finally, there's a lot of un-landable terrain, particularly once you get south of Cumberland. I think the best chance for a 200-mile flight in our area would be from the Pittsburgh sites and Pete Lehmann came very close once (193 miles), but it might also be possible from the Cumberland sites on a strong NNW day. Maybe I'll start flying with my beach towel.

JR

[RichH]

Well, JR is correct on many points ..First it is posssible!! and sailplane pilots have been doing this for years with gliders with LD's as low as 20/1. Current flex wing LD ratings are 15/1..are the gaps JR mentions impassible prior to thermal activity..I think not ..the Altoona gap is slightly down wind and only 4.5 miles high point to high point ..I have crossed gaps upwind that are further apart than that in nothing but ridge lift..The next gap is more significant but a pilot could drop back to the tussey then proceed on a zig zag course downwind or try to hook into the wave that sets up downwind of cumberland.I do not agree with JR about the wind velocity piece ..he is accurate when he says that sailplanes prefer velocities of 20-30+ but it is very reasonable that a hang glider pilot could fly the same routes as the sailplane pilots in lighter winds 10-15+ ..I also believe that flying wave has been very underutilized by hang glider pilots..and wave does set up at the lower wind velocities 15-20mph..A wave camp for hang gliders would be a very interesting idea..if you have not flown in wave in a hang glider it is very exciting..I was lucky enough to experience that and believe we have more opportunities than we realize to hook into wave and utilize wave as a source of lift for extended flights..To JR's last point about flying down wind to go 200 miles plus ..I think he is totally wrong it is only a matter of a few years before a hang glider pilot flies 300 miles + utliizing ridges as a major source of lift on the east coast..I could see a flight originating in Pa ending in the carolinas or further south..Start studying the topos ..by the way ..sailplane pilots have this route pretty well figured out and even have a book on the subject..RH

[theflyingdude]

Well, JR is correct on many points ..First it is posssible!! and sailplane pilots have been doing this for years with gliders with LD's as low as 20/1. Current flex wing LD ratings are 15/1..are the gaps JR mentions impassible prior to thermal activity..I think not ..the Altoona gap is slightly down wind and only 4.5 miles high point to high point ..I have crossed gaps upwind that are further apart than that in nothing but ridge lift..The next gap is more significant but a pilot could drop back to the tussey then proceed on a zig zag course downwind or try to hook into the wave that sets up downwind of cumberland.I do not agree with JR about the wind velocity piece ..he is accurate when he says that sailplanes prefer velocities of 20-30+ but it is very reasonable that a hang glider pilot could fly the same routes as the sailplane pilots in lighter winds 10-15+ ..I also believe that flying wave has been very underutilized by hang glider pilots..and wave does set up at the lower wind velocities 15-20mph..A wave camp for hang gliders would be a very interesting idea..if you have not flown in wave in a hang glider it is very exciting..I was lucky enough to experience that and believe we have more opportunities than we realize to hook into wave and utilize wave as a source of lift for extended flights..To JR's last point about flying down wind to go 200 miles plus ..I think he is totally wrong it is only a matter of a few years before a hang glider pilot flies 300 miles + utliizing ridges as a major source of lift on the east coast..I could see a flight originating in Pa ending in the carolinas or further south..Start studying the topos ..by the way ..sailplane pilots have this route pretty well figured out and even have a book on the subject..RH

I don't want to come off sounding like a naysayer and I'd love to hear about a 300 mile ridge-run on a HG, but I'd be willing to place a friendly wager ($1/mile?) that the ridge-run flight Rich seems to think will happen in a "few years" will not happen in that period of time (if ever) unless there's a dramatic increase in HG performance.

The sailplane guys aren't usually doing these flights in 1-26's with a 20:1 glide, there doing them in 15-meter or open-class sailplanes that get glides of 32:1 and much better and with speeds that make a hang glider look like it's standing still. They're flying the route in wind speeds that would be unsafe for a hang glider and over some terrain that would induce a powerful pucker-factor.

Time will tell and I hope I'm proven wrong, but I think it will continue to be a lot more likely making this flight from the comfort of an armchair than it will be hanging underneath the wing of a hang glider, at least for the foreseeable future.

JR

[Dan T]

Could we get the routes including restricted airspace from the sailplane guys? If we could load the known routes including all the sectional data into our GPSs this would greatly simplify the planning process. The sailplane guys fly pretty long triangles and out and backs. We should be able to complete one long leg of those anyway. While these might not yield Region records I doubt that there are many of us Region 9 XC pilots who wouldn't be delighted to break off a 100 miler in this region.

I think wave lift is prevalent near Woodstock. I suspect that it typically sets up near or perhaps west of I81 in the area nearest launch. Since we rarely fly that far out into the valley we just miss it. I further suspect that it contributes to the "Woodstock effect." Perhaps the sailplane pilots who fly that area can enlighten us?

Once my hand heals I'd love to be a part of a team effort to pull a flight from Woodstock to North Carolina.

Dan T

[RichH]

I accept your wager..Lets say with in the next 6 years a significant flight (over 200 miles) let say that 60% of the total milage is accomplished on ridge running..I dont' think it has to be death defying or done in 20 to 30 mph winds..or flown over unlandable terrain..but I do think a long flight can be had linking ridges and possibly wave. I remember many pilots felt a 100 miler could never be done by a hang glider on ridges ..many of the same comments were spoken a that time..not enough speed or glide..Tim and his friends flying Peters Mtn proved that wrong..flying the whole ridge (I believe they flew over 79 miles ridge running). I'm not advocating that anyone should take unusual chances or launch in extreme conditions but I do feel that the next challenge for Hang gliders in our area would be to use the major soaring resources we have in our area namely ridge and or/wave..It can't be done if every one feels its impossible..as you yourself said it is possible!! We just need to look at the possible routes and determine if they can be flown safely in normal conditions..

[XCanytime]

Rich,
I hear what you are saying. I have been studying the relief maps for 14 years dreaming of such flights linking ridges. The one I'm really keen on is launching from the SAC, flying to the Susquehanna (which I've done numerous times), jumping the Susquehanna (I think only one pilot has done this and landed on the other side), continuing on Buffalo Mt. for a few miles, then flying 5 miles upwind to link up with the eastern terminus of Tuscarora Mt. You feasibly could fly a good bit down the Tusc; theoretically you could make it all the way down to the Pulpit. There are some hairy areas north of Cowan's Gap State Park, but if you were in wave, that would not apply.
The great flight made by Tom Knauff in a sailplane in April 1983, a 1027? mile out and back from Williamsport, PA? to near Johnson City, TN and back, was a flight where he utilized wave lift and got to 14K MSL along the trek.

Bacil

[RichH]

Dan there is a book out about the routes and the wave locations..its part of the x-c camp that a soaring club used to run in Pa, not sure that it is currently being used (I have a copy somewhere). I think its intresting topic and a group of pilots focused on this task could fly some major distance.(ex World record encampment, Zapata).I respect JR's opinions greatly and many of his comments are right on but I think flying downwind in region 9 also holds many limitations ( namely restricted airspace). My effort was to only open this topic to discussion ...and hopefully I'll collect on that bet JR

[RichH]

Bacil, I've studied that route as well and you are correct about the challenges..but I agree with you the tussy holds some possibilities. Take a look at starting on the Bald Eagle ridge and hoping back to the Tussey. rh

[RichH]

Guys I found my copy its called " Ridge Soaring the Bald Eagle Ridge" by Tom Knauff..My edition was the 4th published in 1995. It outlines the trouble spots and locations of wave etc.. At the very least a very intresting read..It does outline basic ridge running concepts such as (how to cross gaps) (Weather) (Ridge Soaring Methods) etc..I'm not sure if its still in print but I would be happy to loan out my copy

[lbunner]

Can you send it to me first?
113 Livia Lane
Wrightsville, Pa 17368

I guarantee I will devour it quickly and send back.

Bun

[Dan T]

i want it second then please. Let's do this Bun and gang!

Dan T

[RichH]

guys the book is still in print just google ''Ridge Soaring the Bale Eagle Ridge by Tom Knauff '' I believe its 19.95 a copy..You will be impressed, it includes pictures of difficult points and discussions about routes, weather and alternative routes ..Remember getting ready for long ridge flights requires planning and practice and experience...A great practice ground is woodstock..try running that ridge and practice the gap crossing techniques that are outlined in the book they apply to HG as well as sailplanes..Get alot of hours under your belt before flying cross country..flying ridges can be alot more difficult than thermal flying ..there is a whole lot less time for decision making if things go wrong. Take it slow and practice each step..when I was running the ridge at Woodstock we flew in groups and always had a recovery driver..Before you make any serious attempts at really long flights make several dry runs to work out the kinks..Time spent locally will pay off later..Fly wise, Fly smart..RH

[theflyingdude]

I accept your wager..Lets say with in the next 6 years a significant flight (over 200 miles) let say that 60% of the total milage is accomplished on ridge running..I dont' think it has to be death defying or done in 20 to 30 mph winds..or flown over unlandable terrain..but I do think a long flight can be had linking ridges and possibly wave. I remember many pilots felt a 100 miler could never be done by a hang glider on ridges ..many of the same comments were spoken a that time..not enough speed or glide..Tim and his friends flying Peters Mtn proved that wrong..flying the whole ridge (I believe they flew over 79 miles ridge running). I'm not advocating that anyone should take unusual chances or launch in extreme conditions but I do feel that the next challenge for Hang gliders in our area would be to use the major soaring resources we have in our area namely ridge and or/wave..It can't be done if every one feels its impossible..as you yourself said it is possible!! We just need to look at the possible routes and determine if they can be flown safely in normal conditions..

Rich, although I noticed you're back-peddling a little on your earlier "300 miles within the next few years" suggestion, I would be more than happy to accept the bet of 200 miles in the eastern U.S. within the next six years of which 60% (120 miles) is accomplished ridge running. At a $1/mile, that makes our bet $200 with the cut-off date being June 29, 2015. This is a bet I really wouldn't mind losing and I hope someone proves me wrong by making the flight, but I'm guessing this will be a lot more lucrative than putting the money in my 401K.

[Larry Huffman]

I’ve been following this thread with some interest. If my memory serves me correctly Tim Donovan left the ridge and went down wind to get 100 miles. If that is true then 100 miles has never been accomplished by a hang glider exclusively running a ridge. Now the discussion is of flights 2 and 3 times that distance.

Cross country flying is achieved by staying in the air on course. Long distance flights are a race against the sun. Let’s look at some of the things that should be considered. After looking at the terrain whether along a ridge or down wind we decide what looks favorable and pick a route and the distance we want to try. Next we have to decide what the length of time our window is that supports conditions favorable for our quest. Now we will want to know what average speed will be needed to achieve our goal. Is this average speed realistic in the craft that we have chosen to fly? Will we be able to get past obstacles of terrain such as gaps and the like in our path and still maintain the desired average?

There is talk of starting early in the morning flying ridge lift. How many days have any of us seen when it was soarable in the morning and it didn’t get much stronger in the afternoon? If we are relying on thermal lift then what do the climb rates have to be to support our average?

I have done the math and I don’t believe that the flex wings of today have the performance for the flights being discussed. Even if flex wing performance increases it will still be a far cry from the 20 – 1 of a 1-26. To get long flights we need the help of a tail wind. I’m with J. R. on this one.

Larry

[RichH]

Larry I'll have to check with Tim but I'm fairly sure Tim flew several times to the main large gap on Peters (bluefield) that distance if memory serves me at 79 miles..So if Tim flew the length of Peters to that large gap just past bluefield at 79 miles and were able to cross that gap onto clinch how far could you go? ... Also, a Atos lists its L/D @ 19 to 1 a 1-26 is 21.5 of course who knows how accurate these LD's are..I don't have speed figures on the Atos but i think the L/D is within the realm of possibilities..Ok to your math point .using Mass/Woodstock as a model from the old launch (a mile further north of the current launch) to the end of the ridge was apprx 40 miles long there are 3 significant gaps along the way ..utilizing a older model glider (attack Duck) I made the end of the ridge in just over an hour ..so..Lets say 30 miles an hour would be a fair conservative average..So if I do the math in 8hrs a pilot could cover 240 miles..Now the conversation is do we believe there are significant ridge lengths that could be connected either directly or by a zig zag course (flying downwind from one ridge to another) that a current model glider could accomplish the course in 8 or 9 hours (270 miles possibly 300). You are certainly entitled to your opinion which I respect but I think flying ridges and connecting them in a significant flight is a strong possibility . With a focused group of talented pilots flying top end gliders could ..and I believe will cross that barrier with in the next 6 years ..Is there significant weather nw winds that blow consistantly for 9 hrs for the length of 300 miles ..just ask any of the many pilots ..including 1-26 pilots that have made significant flights out of Mifflin airport in PA and have flown to Georgia and back to PA to fly that 500 mile out and back takes every bit of 10 to 12 hours..Agree or not ..but it is an intresting thought..isn't it?

[Larry Huffman]

Rich,
The fact is Tim did not connect the ridge and did not go 100 miles on the ridge. Your point is well taken about the Atos but we were talking about flex wings or at least I referred to them specifically.

Next while I’m confident that you made the Woodstock run as you say but I would not agree that 30 mph average is a conservative time at all. The time of day influences the ease and thus the average speed of a ridge run. I’ve watched pilots run ridges in the afternoon and struggle to stay up while later on other pilots would just cruise along with ease. Long distance flights have to use a much larger portion of the day with these ever changing conditions.

I do believe that you can link ridges but I think that it generally requires more effort that you seem to think. I would like to see more effort put into doing triangles utilizing the linking of ridges. I have read Ridge Soaring The Bald Eagle Ridge (1983 edition) and have flown on some potions of the ridge. I know that the Altoona Gap for one has put many pilots on the ground. I also know that you aren’t always in the best position to cross gaps and that eats time.

I do find the concept interesting and do not want to discourage you from the pursuit because we can all learn something from it. I do however think that there is more to it than you have indicated.

Larry

[RichH]

Never said it wouldn't be difficult..I only think pilots have been trained to think downwind and I believe the performance in hang gliders (flex or rigid) is improving to the point that the strategy to always fly only downwind will come into question..Also, you may want to look earlier in this discussion but a flight by Nelson was brought up mentioning he did cross the gap onto clinch mtn..don't know how accurate that is but if it is accurate then it does help prove my point..I have had many flights downwind but I also started thinking about the possibility of linking ridges to extend flights..I have studied the same book by Tom Knauff ( and by the way most of the difficulty with Altoona is heading from the south to the north where pilots are caught in the rotor from the upwind ridge..it is not a big problem heading south for sailplanes..) Our top end HG's (Atos)are now reaching some of the LD performance of some of the low end sailplane sport class. I feel 30 mph is a fair number and a good average speed to caculate the possible total distance on a given day. I do think there are ridges that if linked could produce a very long flight. I believe a pilot of your caliber Larry flying a top end glider if studied a path and then focused on trying to achieve that path given time (several years) would have a decent chance for success. If nothing else I think this discussion has at the very least got pilots looking at that possibility..Honestly, if you had told me back in the 80"s that by the late 90's pilots would be flying over 400 miles I would have found that incredible..(actually still do).

[Larry Huffman]

Rich I'm afraid that I will have to agree to respectfully disagree. Back in the late 70s and early 80s some of us thought that ridges would have to be used at least in part for long flights. We discovered that it just wasn’t true. We weren’t brain washed into believing that down wind was the way to go. I did enjoy the discourse though. I think that any attempt by a group should some how be named after Tim Donovan. I only met him once but he was a fine person. He will be missed.

Larry

[RichH]

Larry I think that is an excellent idea ..Rh