Poll: Combining PG and HG Flights Topics

[pink_albatross]

Heh. co-posted previous with Brian... thinking along the same lines apparently...

Actually it takes more than 10 pilots to make a listserver. I think Brian has it about right. For every 5 pilots, one will post. If you have 10 pilots, two on average will post. Two will not make a forum. Kind of pointless. After a while, they'll just start emailing each other and might cc the other eight and pretty soon you have a regular private email list.

-- ellis

[markc]

The reasons for having a separate PG forum were to: a) convey to PG pilots that
they are welcome and on an 'equal footing', and b) to provide an opportunity for them
to develop a community with its own character/vibe.

The overall volume of PG forum topics is fairly low, as is the number of PG pilots who
post.... But on the other hand, the number of topic views in the PG forum has increased
dramatically over the past several years.

So this makes me wonder if the PG forum is attracting an increasing number PG "lurkers".
And if so, then do they prefer having a separate PG forum? Would combining the two
somehow be seen as a step backward, rather than forward?

It will be hard to know if that's the case (especially if putative lurkers have never
registered with a forum account). But I guess I should at least copy this topic/poll
over to the PG forum, to give possible lurkers a chance to see what's going on.
I'll do that in a bit. But please, vote in just ONE of the polls.

My time for reading the forum is pretty limited, so I have to admit that I like the fact
that the HG forum focuses on the type of flying that I do. When I have some extra time,
I bounce over to PG and catch up on what looks interesting to me. So separate forums
actually makes life a little more convenient, for me. YMMV.

Guess I'll have to decide if that convenience outweighs the possible benefits of
combining, and then cast my vote, hmmm.....

MarkC

PS: Oh yeah, we've never combined the topics from two separate forums into one, so
I don't even know how easy or hard it will be. Anyone out there with phpBB admin
experience on this issue, please speak up!

PPS: I'm going to change forum permissions so that both regular registered users and
"CHGPA Members" can vote in polls, and change their vote. The CHGPA Members group
doesn't accurately reflect all club members, unfortunately.

[mcelrah]

I think the idea may be to have a "flying coordination and reporting" forum that it is explicit both HG and PG are welcome to post to. Shouldn't be any more "irrelevant" material than when the topless guys are going out on a strong day and the Falcon drivers have to stay home or wait for it to back down - or conversely, when the topless guys are potatoing on launch and the Falcons are all pushing to the front of the line.

Is there a limit on how many fora we can have? Could we still have HG and PG technical fora in addition to the "flying coordination and reporting" one?

- Hugh

[mcelrah]

I think the idea may be to have a "flying coordination and reporting" forum that it is explicit both HG and PG are welcome to post to. Shouldn't be any more "irrelevant" material than when the topless guys are going out on a strong day and the Falcon drivers have to stay home or wait for it to back down - or conversely, when the topless guys are potatoing on launch and the Falcons are all pushing to the front of the line.

Is there a limit on how many fora we can have? Could we still have HG and PG technical fora in addition to the "flying coordination and reporting" one?

- Hugh

P.S. I had to cut and paste this from the PG side - would be nice not to have to...

[carweill]

This is a good point. More often than not it is desirable to cross post on both.
Given the history of the usage I'll vote for combining.

Carlos

[markc]

Yeah, it's frustrating that cross-posting between forums isn't easier. AFAICT, that
capability is granted only to forum moderators. I could experiment with
creating a 'dummy' moderator role whose only real capability is cross-posting,
and then grant that role to all registered users.... But I don't recall seeing
a specific "Can cross-post between forums" permission. Without that, no dice,
won't work (If others with phpBB admin experience know differently, please speak up).

There's no limit to the number of forums we can have. The tricky part is
defining distinct areas of interest that people will find natural to use & browse.
We don't want things so fine-grained that there's a bunch of forums with
little or no traffic. Would be a pain to navigate and keep up with...

The cross-post issue definitely is an issue that might swing my own vote
toward combining.

MarkC

[markc]

Looks like combining two existing forums into one is supposed to be a
no-brainer:

http://www.chillisoft.co.za/blog/?p=177

Hopefully that's true... But I think I'll have backups out the wazoo
before giving it a go

MarkC

[dbodner]

It sounds silly, but I prefer not to have more fora than will fit comfortably on my screen without scrolling. So, I would vote against more fora

I was the joker who voted "don't care" on the issue of combining PG and HG fora But, I think I mean it. If PGers don't post to the PG forum, or if they don't post to a combined HG/PG forum, it makes no difference. Perhaps we'll consider ourselves fortunate when there are so many PG posts that the HGers demand they get their own forum. But, for the foreseeable future, I don't think it'll make much difference.

[RedBaron]

If I am not mistaken I think you missed the point, Dave.
It's largely about the message rather than bare pragmatism.
The message is: We are one small soaring community and life's too short for an ill-fated us-vs.-them ideology, to which 2 voters apparently still subscribe.
Being a vibrant, positive and growing community is in our hands and this is a first step.

People have the option of changing their votes, by the way.

[markc]

life's too short for an ill-fated us-vs.-them ideology

You really feel that having two different forums translates into "us vs. them" ?

Interesting.

MarkC

[Matthew]

There is no "us" vs. them between the HG and PG pilots. There is no animosity or ill-will. It's just that a good number of the PG pilots have no concept of being part of a flying community.

Matthew

[mcelrah]

So...teach them! I think we have seen a good deal of progress in terms of getting necessary permits, carpooling, more experienced pilots mentoring those who are developing, avoiding actions that could imperil sites. If we demonstrate the behaviors that we want and explain the behaviors we want without a load of condemnation and anger, we can bring "them" aboard gradually. - Hugh

[RedBaron]

This is getting messy.

You really feel that having two different forums translates into "us vs. them" ?

Please compare my comments with

so I have to admit that I like the fact that the HG forum focuses on the type of flying that I do

and explain to me how providing a separate forum to a small group of perhaps 10 pilots is not motivated by your lack of interest in a type of flying that is very similar to your type of flying.

It's just that a good number of the PG pilots have no concept of being part of a flying community.

Please provide evidence. Let's compare your evidence with mine. Right now you are just ranting and giving the PG community a lot of good reasons not to share with us all the good things they've got going for them.

So...teach them!

Hugh, with all due respect. I mean, Jesus Christ! Do you realize how arrogant this sounds?

[mcelrah]

Well, I am prepared to concede that European paraglider pilots who arrived in this area did not immediately conform to local norms about joining clubs, signing waivers, obtaining permits, getting ratings - they hadn't grown up in the sport here, they arrived as fully qualified pilots and they didn't see why they should have to conform to a bunch of rules made up by hangies. Landowners are not as territorial in Europe and they don't have the plague of lawyers that we have. Paragliding is newer and closer to the dream of "free flight" without a bunch of rules, just as hang-gliding was earlier in its history. If you go back in the archives, I think you will find that at the time, I as much as accused the locals who got upset about the newly arrived PGers of being xenophobic rustics. That said, it is also true that the paragliding community has become more "indigenous" - there are more PG pilots who grew up in the sport here, plus the Europeans seem to have settled here semi-permanently. There is a real community forming and it is gradually merging with the club, a process which you, Janni, are fostering. So my response to Matthew was meant to suggest that if a pilot or group is doing/not doing something that you don't want/want, you are more likely to change the behavior by approaching them in a friendly way and communicating your desires reasonably, rather than getting angry and writing them off a bunch of nogoodniks. As I read it now, this seems more banal than arrogant... - Hugh

[RedBaron]

I apologize Hugh. I misunderstood you.

[jimrooney]

I guess my opinion comes down to a philosophical one.
I think we share more common ground than "special needs" stuff.

The risk of Us-vs-Them seems very low here (not elsewhere for sure!) and would be my only hesitation. So... do we as a club condone that sort of thinking or not? By and large, I find that the CHGPA has a bunch of friendly pilots that don't really care what you fly... they care that you fly.

The few times I've felt the need to post up something to the PG side, I've had to mirror it over on the HG side cuz it always seems to concern everyone.

That's my 2 cents.
Jim

[markc]

Please compare my comments with

so I have to admit that I like the fact that the HG forum focuses on the type of flying that I do

and explain to me how providing a separate forum to a small group of perhaps 10 pilots is not motivated by your lack of interest in a type of flying that is very similar to your type of flying.

What part of my earlier post didn't come through? As I stated:

The reasons for having a separate PG forum were to: a) convey to PG pilots that
they are welcome and on an 'equal footing', and b) to provide an opportunity for them
to develop a community with its own character/vibe.

This happened LONG before you were even on the scene Janni.

If you choose not to believe that those two reasons were/are the intentions behind
the present forum structure... Well, you know what you can do with it.



MarkC

PS: And geez, I'm not even ADVOCATING separate forums within this poll! I simply pointed
out a time-management aspect of my own personal life, and here you are painting me
with some exclusionist brush. 'Bout the closest I've ever come to dropping the F-bomb
in these forums, I think it's time to log-off and take a couple deep breaths.

[Flying Lobster]

I'm all for it. I feel that including the two together will increase the frequency and intensity of bashings, flamefests and give those with a compelling need to look down on someone a ready outlet to vent their frustrations. I find this very entertaining--especially when it rains a lot.

marc

[mcelrah]

Isn't that the whole point of flying: looking down?! - Hugh

[RedBaron]

Poll is closed. 19 in favor of merging the two fora, 5 against it.
2 HG pilots do not greatly esteem PGs, not one PG pilot who shares that sentiment against HGs.
It is decided.

[markc]

FYI... I've done some experimenting, and it appears that topics with identical
names/titles are handled correctly when the posts from one forum are moved
into a second (which is what I'm planning to do, when integrating the PG forum
topics into the "HG" forum). Also, confirmed with the phpBB folks that
URLs for existing topics/posts within the "HG" forum won't be altered when
the PG topics are moved in. So, since I can't fly tomorrow, I'm thinking I'll do
the forum integration then. Keep yer fingers crossed!

MarkC

[chgpa]

Ok, we now have one forum for both HG and PG flight-related topics.
I decided to postpone until after the weekend's flying activities, in
the event that a problem came up.

All PG and HG topics have been merged together for the single forum.

But prior to that, I deleted topics in the PG forum that had clearly been
cross-posted from HG, with no additional/new content, within the past
two years. This gets rid of some topic duplication, post-merge, for that time
period. I also ran a query for all topics with identical titles, for possible
future cleanup/removal. Not sure if/when that will actually happen... So
if you happen to stumble across a redundant topic when trolling through
old posts, let me know (via the Forum Helpdesk) and I'll remove it.

Individual topics from the formerly separate HG/PG forums can also be
combined into one, so if you run across topics that pertain to the same
discussion, let me know about them and I'll take care of them. It's no
big deal if we have redundant or uncombined topics, but would be nice
to clean them up. So keep this in mind any time you are delving back
into old forum content.

Enjoy!

MarkC