A New Face for CHGPA.ORG

[RedBaron]

I would like to get a sense of how much support we can get for giving CHGPA.org a new face, a new feel and a lot of features that are currently painfully lacking.

I feel that this platform no longer meets the requirements of a home base for a modern, manageable and dynamic club. Membership management is difficult, adding/changing pages close to impossible and online communication is at a dramatic all-time low. I am looking into a new hassle-free platform that allows for user-friendly page design and information upload, online membership fee collection and a discussion platform that includes surveys, polls and much more.

Check out

http://www.clubexpress.com/content.aspx ... &club_id=0

$150 installation fee, $4.80 per member per year and an address that doesn't require contracting a HTML programmer to maintain, change and upload information.

I'm sure there are others. I will be pushing BOD to seriously look into this. Being no expert your input will be much appreciated.

[markc]

Janni, some of your assertions are complete bunk.

adding/changing pages close to impossible

Tell me how in the world you know this? Have you ever ASKED for a
page of your own? Has anyone EVER approached you and said "Gee, I've
got this great content, but I can't get it installed at the website" ?

We've got lots of options with our current web provider, including
blogs/wikis/galleries/etc, for end-user contributed content.

Tell you what: Why don't you pick some feature that is "currently
painfully lacking", and let us know exactly what you'd like to see.
A sketch on the back of a napkin would be fine. Then we'll see
what's "impossible" .

Sheesh.

MarkC

[brianvh]

Having a web site which is so easy to use it becomes a free for all may not be the right choice, but I really like the idea of built in registration. We (maybe just me) used to drive Ralph crazy with special requests for the paypal registration he created. Then he wisely stopped doing it. Something automated that doesn't take cgi scripting skill to set up would be cool.

As far as web page modification goes, currently you ask Mark to provide you a link and a place to put a page, and he'll make it for you. You can edit the page anyway you want on your own computer and drop it in by ftp. It's easy, not complete goofball easy but in my experience most things that are goofball easy are also really limited.

[Matthew]

Don't p*ss off the Cavanaugh!!!

Matthew

[davidtheamazing1]

I think we need an online membership system. I don't think that we should replace the website and forums. As for revamping some aspects of the site, I'm sure that Mark can help us. He's a web developer, and I know that many in the club are also web geeks, myself included.

We should find a way to incorporate Dan Tuck's Videos. Maybe we can feed install something that will feed in Craigin's photo stream?

[RedBaron]

I am not suggesting to get rid of CHGPA.org. I am, however, suggesting to make the life of those who run the show easier, including Cavanaugh's life. Knowing what I know now I must say that Mark never gets the accolades he truly deserves for providing us with this website, which I hear is an intensive maintenance job and which he pays for out of his own pocketbook. I'm as much shocked as humbled by his continuoues support and contribution. Thanks Mark, you're the greatest.

Why don't you pick some feature that is "currently
painfully lacking", and let us know exactly what you'd like to see.

- member sign-up and renewal per online visa payment
- calender and event registration
- a donations module per online visa payment
- surveys/polls

Can we do this?

[markc]

- member sign-up and renewal per online visa payment
- calender and event registration
- a donations module per online visa payment
- surveys/polls

Can we do this?

In reverse order, from easy to difficult:

• Surveys/Polls
  You can do this very easily: Simply start a New Topic in any forum, and
  on the page where you compose your post, look for the 'Poll Creation' tab.
  Click that and you will be provided with a form where you can enter the
  poll question, and the set of answers/opinions that you are polling for.
• Calender and Event registration
  Two options come to mind: a) Create a forum that is dedicated to
  event topics (perhaps moderated, so that a BOD member has to approve
  new events); b) Install a forum add-on that supports calendar/event
  management, and is integrated with the rest of the forum capabilities.
  
  Option (a) would be a bit limited, in that you would have just the
  standard topic-oriented view of all the events. But with some good
  moderation of the forum, and good practices in the selection of topic
  titles, it might work fairly well.
  
  For option (b) there is an **alpha** modification to phpBB3 which
  I've been keeping my eye on for some time. See these URLs:
  
  http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopi ... 0&t=666195
  http://phpbbcalendarmod.com/301 (login as demo/demouser)
  
  But there are two things to be aware of for (b) : The mod is only
  alpha-level quality, and installation for a production forum like
  ours is risky (translation: some risk of crashing the forum, and
  causing huge headaches and significant downtime while recovering
  from backups); I don't much like the limited presentation of
  event-name/description which is provided, at all levels (day, week, month)
  above the event itself. Check the demo to see what I mean.
  
  I suppose that we could start with (a), and if that's successful,
  move to (b) as the calendar mod matures? If the BOD wants to do this,
  they will need to identify volunteers who will take on the moderation
  tasks for a new dedicated 'event forum'. Actual set up time wouldn't
  be too bad.
• Donations module per online visa payment
  
  Our web provider provides an E-commerce capability called Zen-Cart.
  Basically, it allows you to create an "online store" . And so it
  should be possible to use that capability to allow interested CHGPA
  supporters to make a donation to the club: The items being 'sold'
  in the store would simply be various donation levels, presumably
  paid for via PayPal. Payment by VISA might also be possible, but
  be aware that you pay for the privilege.
  
  For more information about how Zen-Cart-based online stores can
  make use of credit card payments, see:
  
  http://tutorials.zen-cart.com/index.php?article=285
  
  CHGPA already has a banking account, so perhaps the bank involved
  would be able/willing to allow its use in online-transaction activities?
  Someone should talk to the bank if we seriously want to look into
  this stuff.
• Member sign-up and renewal per online visa payment
  
  Now this is the big one.... Given tools like Zen-Cart, it would be
  logical to extend its use to more than just donations : Add an
  item to the store which represents a 1-year membership, for example.
  
  If **all** you are looking for is a way to get around collecting
  paper checks, then this might be worth looking into. BUT!!! This
  will not, in and of itself, take care of the club membership roster.
  You would still need a person to record the fact of who has paid,
  their contact info, and when their membership has expired (so that
  they can be contacted in a renewal drive). Some/all of the relevant
  data would presumably be provided as part of the transaction, but
  that data still has to **go somewhere** (think of a spreadsheet).
  
  A previous experiment integrating the club roster with online
  payment (via PayPal) was attempted some years ago. But the downside
  of it was that the club roster database was in an XML-based schema
  which absolutely no-one else had any idea to use. That's the problem
  with home-brew solutions.
  
  Your suggestion of ClubExpress as a one-stop shop for handling
  all of our website needs, *plus* membership management, gets around
  the home-brew problem. But the cost is pretty high: $150 setup
  fee, then $360/year (assuming 75 members). Our entire website
  costs about $160/year. Plus, I've checked out the forum capabilities
  that ClubExpress provides... And it simply sucks. Attached photos
  have no preview within posts (just a download link), and there's
  no way to embed videos. Honestly, our current phpBB3-based forum
  is about the best open-source solution that's out there.
  
  I have difficulty imagining that management of 75 members via
  a spreadsheet can be all that difficult. Cash the checks a couple
  times a year, update the roster a couple of times a year.... Can
  it REALLY be all that bad? Especially if we were able to get the
  payment itself handled online, eliminating the physical check?

I think that the BOD should mull all this over, and then perhaps
decide on priorities at a BOD meeting. I would be willing to attend.
Perhaps members with web development skills should also be encouraged
to attend?

MarkC

[markc]

PS: There's probably some interest in this topic within this forum, but it's not
really flight-related. So I'll probably move it to General Discussion, after people
have had a few more days to check it out...

MarkC

[davidtheamazing1]

Mark,
Thanks for the background and ideas. I am against Alpha plugin idea, as stability of the forum is more important than the calendar feature.

I know managing the 75 people on a spreadsheet isn't that hard, but I don't see our club as having people who consistently want to take that on... after all we're hang gliding pilots, with tons of patience for wind and weather, but too lazy or unmotivated for ongoing administrative chores. If some of the day-to-day operations drudgery could be automated, maybe we could focus our efforts on doing things that will grow the membership.

I have volunteered to work on finding/implementing chgpa membership system. The ClubExpress system looks like a good package but I think we can do better for the money. I'll see if I can find a free or open source solution. A home-grown system can work if its designed correctly and occasionally maintained.

A system that collects membership fees online, tracks expiration dates, sends Matthew-style nags, requests updated info, has administrative features, and can generate a lists of current members (as well as the shamefully expired ones), Maybe we could even link it to the phpBB usernames/and group memberships.

Me & you can talk/meet to discuss setup, payment gateways, ssl security and database options. I'm interested in the Ralph system as it might be inspired or we could at least build onto some of the aspects. A board (or perhaps general) meeting on a membership solution would be good once we have narrowed things down a bit.

I agree that this is geeking way outside of the realm of HG topics

[brianvh]

We've got a lot of computer geeks in the club. I think if a cgi script could be linked to the automatic banking, everything can be done.
If the programming can result in a spreadsheet formatted document of all pilot information, then lesser mortals can take it from there.

The problem with cgi scripts is in order to reformat the original text output into the text output you want will take a computer with some computer language. Every computer can run C or Java, so if the script is written using one of those (java's probably best), the whole thing can be ported to anyone's computer. All they'll need to do is download an email attachment and start the program running once a week. Or at worse once a month.

Might be worth seeing if someone like Mike Balk would accept discount consulting fees to do the job. I think if done right it would be worth $1000 investment.

[Dan T]

This seems like a solution chasing a non-existent problem to me. The primary function of this site is to arrange to fly, to report on flying and to bring up new flight related ideas. It seems to do all three very well as well as handle still and video pictures.

I think Mark has done an admiral job and find it somewhat disingenuous that this discussion would occur without consulting him first.

Dan T
on the way home tomorrow

[RedBaron]

I think Mark has done an admiral job and find it somewhat disingenuous that this discussion would occur without consulting him first.

You are very mistaken if you think there's anyone who doesn't think we'd be all screwed without Mark's continuous and selfless support as well as expertise on these things. You are making a ridiculous accusation.

Posting here is my way of seeking Mark's and everybody else's consultation. Like it or not, going public with my outrageous requests works much better than private emails. And if you had read any of these posts you would have realized that there are things missing the new BOD desires.

Just because Mark has done an admiral job doesn't mean we have to stop here. Is that disingenuous?

Mark, your solutions sound great and I see no reason anymore to go to a third party. Your suggestions are beyond my understanding and I can't help with that. Everything else I can and will do.

[davidtheamazing1]

This seems like a solution chasing a non-existent problem to me. The primary function of this site is to arrange to fly, to report on flying and to bring up new flight related ideas. It seems to do all three very well as well as handle still and video pictures.

I think Mark has done an admiral job and find it somewhat disingenuous that this discussion would occur without consulting him first.

Dan T
on the way home tomorrow

I agree with the commendations for Mark, though as evidenced above he has certainly been part of the project discussion and has offered lots of good input. I'm a big fan of this site and in my mind, Marks ability and persistence is one of the best things going for the club. The "primary function" of the chgpa site, I would argue, is to support and serve the club members and prospects.

As for the "non-existent problem" of declining club membership, increased disorganization, lack of chapter recognition with USHPA, non-eligibility for site insurance, and non-abundance of volunteers... maybe we don't need anything from USHPA and maybe I'm not seeing all of the new and active chgpa members because they have all launched by 8am and specked-out?

[brianvh]

We have a new officer...the admirable, Admiral Mark!

[DanTuck]

I really like the idea of 21st century automation. However, I'm fine with making a few trips to the bank and manually editing a roster. Especially since I don't know the first thing about these systems, programming or automation and cannot contribute. I'll just submit the updates to Mark and he can wave his magic wand and it will appear on the website. Wallah! In the meantime, rock on.

[RedBaron]

If the respected club treasurer doesn't mind juggling checks and spreadsheets I suppose we can drop it. So,
let's narrow this discussion down to option a) for calendar and event registration because it means no extra hassle for anyone and the zen cart thing for E- commerce.
I think that would be really cool and could bring some extra cash into the club's wallet. Will you guys do that? Is there anything I can do to help, I mean other than putting a rocket up everybody's butt?

[markc]

I think Mark has done an admiral job and find it somewhat disingenuous that this discussion would occur without consulting him first.

You are very mistaken if you think there's anyone who doesn't think we'd be all screwed without Mark's continuous and selfless support as well as expertise on these things. You are making a ridiculous accusation.

Ummm... Actually Janni, that wasn't a slam against me on Dan's part at all. He was simply
pointing out that it might have been good idea to have a conversation about website issues,
with me participating, before all the talk about switching to an untried "hassle-free" platform.

too lazy or unmotivated for ongoing administrative chores

Oh man, that gets a chuckle outta me! Administrative chores are probably the majority of
forum life: forgotten passwords and usernames; vetting forum registrants to keep out spambots
that break the CAPTCHA system; database backups; installation of new software releases;
questions about how to use forum features.... Anyone who gets into this sort of thing with an
expectation that automation will eliminate drudgery will soon be very disillusioned.

A system that collects membership fees online, tracks expiration dates, sends Matthew-style nags, requests updated info, has administrative features, and can generate a lists of current members (as well as the shamefully expired ones), Maybe we could even link it to the phpBB usernames/and group memberships.

Oooo! Ooooo! I sense a volunteer!!! Quick, don't let him get away!!!

David, you are dead-on with the suggestion of integration with phpBB's user/group model.
If I had the time, I would develop a phpBB MOD to support club membership management,
and make it available to anyone who wants to use it. There would be risks: eg, phpBB moves
to a major new release, completely breaking existing MODs (that's what happened with
the 2.0 to 3.0 transition). But OTOH, we would be participating in a very active open source
effort, perhaps mitigating some of the 'homebrew' downsides.

There are at least 4 major aspects of big MODs: database/SQL; php programming; CSS;
phpBB interface/templating. If we had a team of people who could each focus on one of those
areas, that would really be something. Database & SQL stuff is easiest for me... What are
you most comfortable with?

In the meantime, I'll start config'ing a dedicated Event forum. We'll advertise a special
username/pswd that anyone can use to post an event, and I'll create a group that has
moderation capabilities in the new forum (the group members will be the CHGPA BOD).
New events will be held until moderator approval by a BOD member. Can't give you an
ETA because I'm in the middle of a production crunch at work... Perhaps a couple of weeks.

MarkC

[davidtheamazing1]

I'm good with php/css, and also e-commerce integration. Check out my cool home-made web store application & buy a pair of power stilts

http://www.dcpowerstilts.com/products.php

[RedBaron]

Ummm... Actually Janni, that wasn't a slam against me on Dan's part at all. He was simply
pointing out that it might have been good idea to have a conversation about website issues,
with me participating, before all the talk about switching to an untried "hassle-free" platform.

I know it wasn't and I know he was, by calling my approach towards starting this discussion disingenuous. I do not agree with that. Here is why.

We had a discussion about website issues and you were included. My emails requesting a casual meeting on this subject have been ignored so far. So, if somebody has a right to feel excluded, I think it should be me

I'm interested in pilots' opinions and I choose radical titles to get pilots' attention. You may not like it, but this approach works pretty well and is not as prone to being ignored as emails. Good things have transpired so far and it looks like we will soon be afforded new exciting features.

Also, at the time I published my first post I didn't know CHGPA.org was a service provided by you. I was always under the impression that maintaining this website was a massive burden on you and thought of it unfair.

Again, you did a fantastic job with this and this site obviously has a lot more potential than I thought. That's awesome.

[mcelrah]

One of the outputs of the membership renewal system has to be a roster with current USHPA (different from CHGPA) membership expiration dates. This has to be produced in December in time for chapter renewal. Also, my experience as treasurer was that checks came in in drips and draps and I was making A LOT of trips to the bank. (I don't really think holding checks for six months is good business practice.) - Hugh

[mcelrah]

Another lesson-learned from the PayPal debacle was that the PayPal account had to reference the CHGA (no "P") bank account as it was misspelled originally ("...Hangliding...") or else no deposit would go through. We never did get it to work. On the other hand, paying for things through PayPal works swimmingly: to this day, if I as an individual buy something with PayPal, the CHGA bank account gets charged. (Once I discovered this, I have simply avoided using PayPal - the problem has never been fixed...) Computers! Bah! Humbug! - Hugh

[dbodner]

Hugh, I think you're wrong on two counts.

Ralph had a paypal account linked to a .net e-mail address. Our current account is linked to a .org address. I believe I'd had it working, though it's frozen until Paypal gets some information from us.

I also believe that if you went into Paypal and looked closely, you'd see both the CHGPA account and your personal account. You just need to choose the correct one.

BTW, I stand ready to help with Appleworks database issues. It's probably not what we want long-term, but we ought to update it for now.

[RedBaron]

Thanks for offering your help, Dave. Thanks for chipping in with your experience, Hugh. Many trips to the bank indeed sound like a big pain in the butt.

I've got two more ideas (shared by other members).

1)
I would very much like to see PG and HG flight topics combined to just Flight topics. First, we only have a few PG pilots that happen to be inactive on this forum. Second, I like the idea of making the statement that we're all equal and belong to one community. It could be such a signal. Ellis has set the record straight and they have been doing a lot of work and good things, which are seldom published here and thus unknown to most HG pilots. I believe Tom, a kickass pilot, gives XC clinics and we could benefit a lot from his willingness to help pilots improve (I have so far failed miserably recruiting our top HG pilots for this cause).

2)
Let's change PG flight topics to Gloves Off Topics or Flame War Topics or something. Banning Tad hasn't brought anybody back, and, quite frankly, we've become civil to the point where we are just boring. The economy is down, the weather sucks so let's offer our community an outlet for venting, cursing and what not. Could be an interesting social experiment.

[pink_albatross]

First I would like to thank Mark C. for his long term under-the-radar volunteer work for chgpa. I had no idea it was such an extensive job. I suppose with a little thought I should have realized. THANK YOU SO MUCH, MARK!!! I suspect he's been trying to fly under the radar to avoid getting the well deserved, but little appreciated monstrous CHGPA award for outstanding service to our community. Your cover is gone

Also thanks so much to the new treasurer Dan for his willingness to get our affairs back in order and taking on the burden of maintaining our membership. Applause!

Now, I just want to fess up that I am one of the members who shares our illustrious energetic president Janni's latest idea of joining the two HG and PG fora (forums?) into one appropriately named forum. Besides making the statement that we are one club and not two joined HG and PG clubs, who might have just come together for administrative purposes, I personally would find it easier to just monitor one forum. It would be much easier to find out where everybody is going flying and what's going on in the club. With two fora, people have to make a special effort to include a topic on the PG forum, if it is something that is club business or otherwise of interest to both HG and PG. While I appreciate the efforts of those HG people who do post to the PG forum, I think it would be easier for everybody to just combine the fora.

For any HG who is worried about getting spammed with uninteresting PG posts, take a look at the PG forum. You'll see quickly that your fears are unfounded. Besides, even should we PG pilots get more active on the combined forum, I think it is easy to ignore the posts initiated by pilots known to fly PG, unless of course the subject is something of interest to you.

Not sure what other objections (other than it could be a pain to implement) there would be. But that's what this discussion is for. Bring on the opinions!

disclaimer: I do not speak for anybody but myself
-- ellis

[mcelrah]

Fora - maintain those Latin (and Greek) neuter plurals! And singulars! Criterion. Datum.

As a biwingual pilot, I find it more of a pain to have two fora. It's all about the site and the wind - do we have a separate single-surface or topless HG forum? And to the extent that different wings have more or less success on a given occasion, it may generate some (friendly) competition and appreciation for the different characteristics and limitations of our aircraft. May even lead us down the slippery slope to more biwingualism!

I note that two other "opposed" communities, among boaters (power and sail - or "stink-pots" and "blow-boats"), effectively timeshare the Chesapeake Bay: when the wind is dead and the water glassy smooth, the power boats love it; when the wind picks up and waves develop, it becomes less comfortable for the speedboats and the sailors come into their own...

- Hugh