"The entire rig is metal and weighs a good bit. It’s ment to go inline between the tug and the glider not within the bridle. I would want it to be well in font of me too so as to not get whacked with all that metal flinging around. The weak-link itself is encased between two slabs of metal."
Wasn't I clever to bow out of the discussion when I did?
Weak link question
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
Re: Weak link question
Brian Vant-Hull
-
Lauren Tjaden
- Posts: 371
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:27 pm
Re: Weak link question
From the Oz Report, about a fatal hang gliding towing accident in Hay (05):
"Once the glider bounces off the ground, Robin is never able to get the glider lined up correctly behind Bobby Bailey. He drifted continually to the left, locking out and crashing from a low altitude. If Bobby had released Robin at any time before the last two or three seconds he would likely not have crashed, at least not from a lockout.
Remember that Robin's bridle and weaklink failed. He attempted to release and was unable to do so."
Being stuck to the plane is not always good.
I know personally of another incident that occurred this year in a tandem (not at Quest, not with me). A pilot with limited tandem experience took up a tandem passenger behind a tug pilot with limited midday experience. The hang gliding pilot had difficulty controlling the glider's pitch due to bad flying on the tug pilot's part. He should have released earlier, but didn't. By the time the glider released the tandem had been stressed pretty hard. The tandem pilot safely landed the tandem. Afterwards, while examining the glider to ensure that it had not been overstressed, it fell apart on the ground. Very lucky it was not a double fatality.
The pilot will report this in a timely fashion but it is not my place to reveal details. The weak link did not break.
Being stuck to the plane is not always good.
Lauren
"Once the glider bounces off the ground, Robin is never able to get the glider lined up correctly behind Bobby Bailey. He drifted continually to the left, locking out and crashing from a low altitude. If Bobby had released Robin at any time before the last two or three seconds he would likely not have crashed, at least not from a lockout.
Remember that Robin's bridle and weaklink failed. He attempted to release and was unable to do so."
Being stuck to the plane is not always good.
I know personally of another incident that occurred this year in a tandem (not at Quest, not with me). A pilot with limited tandem experience took up a tandem passenger behind a tug pilot with limited midday experience. The hang gliding pilot had difficulty controlling the glider's pitch due to bad flying on the tug pilot's part. He should have released earlier, but didn't. By the time the glider released the tandem had been stressed pretty hard. The tandem pilot safely landed the tandem. Afterwards, while examining the glider to ensure that it had not been overstressed, it fell apart on the ground. Very lucky it was not a double fatality.
The pilot will report this in a timely fashion but it is not my place to reveal details. The weak link did not break.
Being stuck to the plane is not always good.
Lauren
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
http://ozreport.com/9.032
>>
2005/02/07
The Worlds - weaklinks
Weaklinks? We don't need no stinking weaklinks.
Rohan Holtkamp (in blue text below) at Dynamic Flight <dynamic> responds to my response (in black) to Angelo re Robin's death (http://ozreport.com/9.026#2):
>
Rohan
...The supplied weaklinks and each roll of material was selected (one week before the comp) after testing proved that the breaking strain to be plus or minus 5% from 118kg, as promised in the local rules.
Robin's own release failed to release, plus he refused our weaklink, even to the point of yelling and physical threat. After viewing video evidence of the entire flight, even a 80kg weaklink would have made little difference. His actual weaklink did test to be stronger than 180kg, but that was not the primary cause of his accident. Release failure was, same as Mike Nooy's accident. A full lockout can be propagated with less than forty kg of tension. Read "Taming the beast" on our website and/or come have a look at the video if you doubt this in any way.
<
>
Davis
(editor's note: So if weaklinks don't do much to save us from lockouts, an argument heard repeatedly at the Worlds, then why are we using them after Robin's lockout (and not before)? Shouldn't we have all gone to the Pro-tow or other type of bridle instead, as it was not the weaklink that was at fault in Robin's accident, but the bridle (as your investigation discovered)?
What exactly is the point of weaklinks? Why should we be using them? What is the tradeoff in safety between breaking a weaklink and thereby having a problem, and not breaking a weaklink and thereby having a problem?
...
Of course, I realize that there are some circumstances where weaklinks are useful. It is just that weaklinks suddenly became THE issue after Robin's death, when in fact, as you argue here, and as you laid out then, it was not the lack of a reasonable weaklink that killed Robin, but the failure of the release mechanism, the bridle.
Perhaps if you laid out the case re the tradeoffs involving weaklinks, we could make a better decision about them. For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break. Am I wrong in this?
<
<<
>
The supplied weaklinks and each roll of material was selected (one week before the comp) after testing proved that the breaking strain to be plus or minus 5% from 118kg, as promised in the local rules.
<
...as usual, with ABSOLUTELY NO CONSIDERATION of the weight of the glider. Karen and Glen get the same idiot piece of string. Thus, she is deemed to be safe ONLY at 1.30 Gs and he ONLY at 0.74. Ya gotta wonder how this depth of stupidity can be this widespread and this ingrained for this long.
>
His actual weaklink did test to be stronger than 180kg...
<
>
USHPA SOP 12-02:2.10:B:5
...The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination...
<
If Robin was Karen's weight or more he was flying in compliance with globally established and recognized aerotowing standards.
>
...it was not the lack of a reasonable weaklink that killed Robin, but the failure of the release mechanism...
<
No fucking "IF" about it - I've seen the film.
>
For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break.
<
For a couple of years I have flown with a DOUBLED WEAKLINK because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I HAVE FOUND THAT THERE IS LITTLE REASON TO EXPECT TROUBLE ON TOW, -EXCEPT FROM A WEAKLINK BREAK-.
>
What exactly is the point of weaklinks? Why should we be using them?
<
>
The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits.
http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/WeakLinks.html
<
>
Afterwards, while examining the glider to ensure that it had not been overstressed, it fell apart on the ground. Very lucky it was not a double fatality.
<
Two assumptions:
Dragonfly.
Max weak links installed on bridles at both ends of the tow line - double loops of 130 pound Greenspot.
No mention of a lockout so it's a pretty good bet it didn't happen.
So let's see... What can we learn, what can we learn...
The glider was MAYBE loaded up a bit while still very much controllable and WITHOUT locking out, which - as only the more clueless amongst us have yet understand - does not generally translate to significant stress. (See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4
)
IF this glider was damaged in the course of that tow it was a fucking DEATHTRAP well before it was hooked up behind the tug. One solid thermal surge during free flight would have been all that would have been needed to fold it up and spit it out of the sky. It was no fucking way adequately preflighted.
>
The pilot will report this in a timely fashion...
<
Nah - Not possible. For this disaster to be reported in a timely fashion the two pilots involved would have needed to have clicked "Submit" to USHPA and the Oz Report within an hour and a half of the glider's collapse.
>
Being stuck to the plane is not always good.
<
How is that statement REMOTELY relevant to this situation?
No tug/glider combo operating within the terms of USHPA SOP 12-02:2.10:B has EVER been stuck together for more than a second or two. As far as I can tell from this scant information... aside from some sloppy technique, between launch and landing neither pilot did ANYTHING wrong.
>>
2005/02/07
The Worlds - weaklinks
Weaklinks? We don't need no stinking weaklinks.
Rohan Holtkamp (in blue text below) at Dynamic Flight <dynamic> responds to my response (in black) to Angelo re Robin's death (http://ozreport.com/9.026#2):
>
Rohan
...The supplied weaklinks and each roll of material was selected (one week before the comp) after testing proved that the breaking strain to be plus or minus 5% from 118kg, as promised in the local rules.
Robin's own release failed to release, plus he refused our weaklink, even to the point of yelling and physical threat. After viewing video evidence of the entire flight, even a 80kg weaklink would have made little difference. His actual weaklink did test to be stronger than 180kg, but that was not the primary cause of his accident. Release failure was, same as Mike Nooy's accident. A full lockout can be propagated with less than forty kg of tension. Read "Taming the beast" on our website and/or come have a look at the video if you doubt this in any way.
<
>
Davis
(editor's note: So if weaklinks don't do much to save us from lockouts, an argument heard repeatedly at the Worlds, then why are we using them after Robin's lockout (and not before)? Shouldn't we have all gone to the Pro-tow or other type of bridle instead, as it was not the weaklink that was at fault in Robin's accident, but the bridle (as your investigation discovered)?
What exactly is the point of weaklinks? Why should we be using them? What is the tradeoff in safety between breaking a weaklink and thereby having a problem, and not breaking a weaklink and thereby having a problem?
...
Of course, I realize that there are some circumstances where weaklinks are useful. It is just that weaklinks suddenly became THE issue after Robin's death, when in fact, as you argue here, and as you laid out then, it was not the lack of a reasonable weaklink that killed Robin, but the failure of the release mechanism, the bridle.
Perhaps if you laid out the case re the tradeoffs involving weaklinks, we could make a better decision about them. For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break. Am I wrong in this?
<
<<
>
The supplied weaklinks and each roll of material was selected (one week before the comp) after testing proved that the breaking strain to be plus or minus 5% from 118kg, as promised in the local rules.
<
...as usual, with ABSOLUTELY NO CONSIDERATION of the weight of the glider. Karen and Glen get the same idiot piece of string. Thus, she is deemed to be safe ONLY at 1.30 Gs and he ONLY at 0.74. Ya gotta wonder how this depth of stupidity can be this widespread and this ingrained for this long.
>
His actual weaklink did test to be stronger than 180kg...
<
>
USHPA SOP 12-02:2.10:B:5
...The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination...
<
If Robin was Karen's weight or more he was flying in compliance with globally established and recognized aerotowing standards.
>
...it was not the lack of a reasonable weaklink that killed Robin, but the failure of the release mechanism...
<
No fucking "IF" about it - I've seen the film.
>
For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break.
<
For a couple of years I have flown with a DOUBLED WEAKLINK because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I HAVE FOUND THAT THERE IS LITTLE REASON TO EXPECT TROUBLE ON TOW, -EXCEPT FROM A WEAKLINK BREAK-.
>
What exactly is the point of weaklinks? Why should we be using them?
<
>
The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits.
http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/WeakLinks.html
<
>
Afterwards, while examining the glider to ensure that it had not been overstressed, it fell apart on the ground. Very lucky it was not a double fatality.
<
Two assumptions:
Dragonfly.
Max weak links installed on bridles at both ends of the tow line - double loops of 130 pound Greenspot.
No mention of a lockout so it's a pretty good bet it didn't happen.
So let's see... What can we learn, what can we learn...
The glider was MAYBE loaded up a bit while still very much controllable and WITHOUT locking out, which - as only the more clueless amongst us have yet understand - does not generally translate to significant stress. (See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4
)
IF this glider was damaged in the course of that tow it was a fucking DEATHTRAP well before it was hooked up behind the tug. One solid thermal surge during free flight would have been all that would have been needed to fold it up and spit it out of the sky. It was no fucking way adequately preflighted.
>
The pilot will report this in a timely fashion...
<
Nah - Not possible. For this disaster to be reported in a timely fashion the two pilots involved would have needed to have clicked "Submit" to USHPA and the Oz Report within an hour and a half of the glider's collapse.
>
Being stuck to the plane is not always good.
<
How is that statement REMOTELY relevant to this situation?
No tug/glider combo operating within the terms of USHPA SOP 12-02:2.10:B has EVER been stuck together for more than a second or two. As far as I can tell from this scant information... aside from some sloppy technique, between launch and landing neither pilot did ANYTHING wrong.
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
Bacil,
If you're still lurking...
At the beginning of August of last year I said:
>
If you crater in it won't be 'cause the tug fell apart, the driver decided to kick in the turbocharger, dump power, and/or fly under the power lines, the engine ran out of gas or seized, the tow line or weak link broke or didn't, the tug's release was or wasn't actuated or jammed, or the tow line wrapped or carabiner hooked on to your wires.
It'll be 'cause you screwed the pooch.
<
Gotta backpedal a bit on that blanket statement.
As per some of the recent discussion, it is possible to be in the extremely rare situation resulting from no pooch screwing whatsoever by anyone in which one's continued good health does indeed depend on gasoline, oil, a substantial weak link, and a tug pilot not overly trigger happy - Bob Koshmaryk being the best example.
>
Donnell Hewett
2008/11/05 16:25:14
...I am sure you can imagine more than one situation where getting off line is the worst possible alternative you can take. In such cases, the towline becomes a "lifeline" rather than a "death-line". It pulls you out of danger rather than plunging you deeper into danger.
<
>
Danny Brotto
2008/11/04 12:49:44
An instance where the weak link could have broken and I'm glad it didn't...
I had the Axis on the cart with the AOA a bit high, launching to the west, with a moderate 90 degree cross from the left. I came out of the cart rolled and yawed to the right with the upwind wing flying and the downwind wing stalled. It was rather dramatic. If I had released or if the weak link had broken, the downwind wing would have further stalled and I would have cartwheeled into terra firma in an unpleasant fashion. I held on tight gaining airspeed until the downwind wing began flying, got in behind the tug, and continued the flight.
Sunny later told be he was about to give me the rope and I thanked him to no end that he didn't...
<
That's why the following scares the crap out of me.
>
jimrooney
2007/07/22 16:59:30
...Just don't tell me that weaklinks need to be stronger! That's just flat out ignorant.
2007/08/01 13:47:23
Here we go again with more of the "you're better on tow in a bad situation" BS.
...
The #1 thing I can do for you just off the ground is GIVE YOU THE ROPE.
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope...
2007/08/01 19:49:30
Tad's saying that I can fix things without giving you the rope.
...
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
<
Brian,
If one were to take at face value the tandem incident Lauren related...
A Dragonfly was able to totally destroy a tandem glider with no more than 348 pounds of tow line tension while itself suffering no damage whatsoever.
Wouldn't that tend to make total hash out of Deepfloat's concern for the delicate structure of a solo dragging tug?
(Rhetorical question - no response expected or needed.)
If you're still lurking...
At the beginning of August of last year I said:
>
If you crater in it won't be 'cause the tug fell apart, the driver decided to kick in the turbocharger, dump power, and/or fly under the power lines, the engine ran out of gas or seized, the tow line or weak link broke or didn't, the tug's release was or wasn't actuated or jammed, or the tow line wrapped or carabiner hooked on to your wires.
It'll be 'cause you screwed the pooch.
<
Gotta backpedal a bit on that blanket statement.
As per some of the recent discussion, it is possible to be in the extremely rare situation resulting from no pooch screwing whatsoever by anyone in which one's continued good health does indeed depend on gasoline, oil, a substantial weak link, and a tug pilot not overly trigger happy - Bob Koshmaryk being the best example.
>
Donnell Hewett
2008/11/05 16:25:14
...I am sure you can imagine more than one situation where getting off line is the worst possible alternative you can take. In such cases, the towline becomes a "lifeline" rather than a "death-line". It pulls you out of danger rather than plunging you deeper into danger.
<
>
Danny Brotto
2008/11/04 12:49:44
An instance where the weak link could have broken and I'm glad it didn't...
I had the Axis on the cart with the AOA a bit high, launching to the west, with a moderate 90 degree cross from the left. I came out of the cart rolled and yawed to the right with the upwind wing flying and the downwind wing stalled. It was rather dramatic. If I had released or if the weak link had broken, the downwind wing would have further stalled and I would have cartwheeled into terra firma in an unpleasant fashion. I held on tight gaining airspeed until the downwind wing began flying, got in behind the tug, and continued the flight.
Sunny later told be he was about to give me the rope and I thanked him to no end that he didn't...
<
That's why the following scares the crap out of me.
>
jimrooney
2007/07/22 16:59:30
...Just don't tell me that weaklinks need to be stronger! That's just flat out ignorant.
2007/08/01 13:47:23
Here we go again with more of the "you're better on tow in a bad situation" BS.
...
The #1 thing I can do for you just off the ground is GIVE YOU THE ROPE.
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope...
2007/08/01 19:49:30
Tad's saying that I can fix things without giving you the rope.
...
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
<
Brian,
If one were to take at face value the tandem incident Lauren related...
A Dragonfly was able to totally destroy a tandem glider with no more than 348 pounds of tow line tension while itself suffering no damage whatsoever.
Wouldn't that tend to make total hash out of Deepfloat's concern for the delicate structure of a solo dragging tug?
(Rhetorical question - no response expected or needed.)
Re: Weak link question
Tad,
I know I'm playing Mr. Obvious here, but remember there are two people's butts on the line during a tow. It ain't just all about the caboose, it's also about the locomotive. I would trust Jim's statements about his "safety" moves if he determines that the situation behind him is endangering his well being.
Bacil
I know I'm playing Mr. Obvious here, but remember there are two people's butts on the line during a tow. It ain't just all about the caboose, it's also about the locomotive. I would trust Jim's statements about his "safety" moves if he determines that the situation behind him is endangering his well being.
Bacil
-
Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
Re: Weak link question
Tug and tandem pilots with limited experience at the same time? Holy crap!Lauren Tjaden wrote:From the Oz Report, about a fatal hang gliding towing accident in Hay (05):
"Once the glider bounces off the ground, Robin is never able to get the glider lined up correctly behind Bobby Bailey. He drifted continually to the left, locking out and crashing from a low altitude. If Bobby had released Robin at any time before the last two or three seconds he would likely not have crashed, at least not from a lockout.
Remember that Robin's bridle and weaklink failed. He attempted to release and was unable to do so."
Being stuck to the plane is not always good.
I know personally of another incident that occurred this year in a tandem (not at Quest, not with me). A pilot with limited tandem experience took up a tandem passenger behind a tug pilot with limited midday experience. The hang gliding pilot had difficulty controlling the glider's pitch due to bad flying on the tug pilot's part. He should have released earlier, but didn't. By the time the glider released the tandem had been stressed pretty hard. The tandem pilot safely landed the tandem. Afterwards, while examining the glider to ensure that it had not been overstressed, it fell apart on the ground. Very lucky it was not a double fatality.
The pilot will report this in a timely fashion but it is not my place to reveal details. The weak link did not break.
Being stuck to the plane is not always good.
Lauren
marc
Great Googly-moo!
Re: Weak link question
I went truck-towing yesterday. I noticed that line tension wasn't changing much no matter what I did with that Falcon. I realized I could totally kite my glider into the ground without the weak link ever yielding.
Could it be that Tad got those two mixed up?
Could it be that Tad got those two mixed up?
#1 Rogue Pilot
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
Bacil,
I'm gonna cut you some slack 'cause you don't tow but...
If I were standing soaking wet in a freezing downpour and Jim were to say, "It's raining.", I would remove my hat, look at the sky, and turn both palms upward.
Anybody who would trust Jim's statements on ANYTHING at this point hasn't been paying attention.
You gotta be REAL careful with that "Obvious" word in this aerotowing game 'cause lotsa stuff the seems so is, in fact, pure crap. Much of what Messieurs Pagen and Bryden wrote on the issue that seems obvious is pure crap.
Short story...
Gliders don't kill tugs - especially Dragonflies. Gliders mostly kill themselves and are all but incapable of killing tugs. A tug, on the other hand, is upon rare occasions capable of killing the glider.
Jim has no useful understanding of weak links.
Somebody once told him that a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot, regardless of the bridle configuration, translates to 1 G for any and every solo glider regardless of its weight. That "fact" was burned into his circuitry on Day 1 and there is no way he can be reprogrammed.
He fails to understand that if he's packing a 450 pound weak link up front it's completely irrelevant what's on the back end of the line once that figure is exceeded.
He fails to understand that a 500 pound weak link on a solo is no more dangerous to the tug than the same thing on a tandem.
He fails to understand that weak link strength is completely irrelevant to any discussion regarding control of either plane.
None of that will ever change either.
For all intents and purposes - only the first ten or fifteen seconds of the tow are dangerous to either party and there are only about three and a half things the glider can do to the tug.
He can pull the tail left, right, or up.
He can't pull the tail down 'cause the runway's there to stop him for a good while after launch - so he can't stall the tug.
He can pull the tail left or right but - what the fuck - who cares?
Most importantly - he can pull the tail up and nose the tug into the ground - and, take note here, NO WEAK LINK CAN PREVENT HIM FROM DOING SO - but:
he's on the other end of a 250 foot line so he can't pull the tail up very fast; and
the tug pilot is REQUIRED to have his finger on the trigger so there's a pretty easy remedy anyway.
The only other thing the glider can do to the tug is to increase drag by abruptly stalling, locking out, or lawn darting and the weak link WILL protect the tug if neither pilot takes other appropriate action. (Note: There's no telling what the glider will end up looking like after the weak link kicks in at that altitude.)
The scenarios in which Jim's cut 'em all loose and let God sort 'em out later cure-all approach can kill people...
glider is mushing (Bill and Mike), tip stalled (Danny), oscillating (Holly, Bob), locking out but climbing (John Dullahan).
In only one of these instances - Bill and Mike - was the tug's safety being compromised and, in that case, not until things had been allowed to deteriorate for a long time and into the point of no return.
>
USHGA Tug Pilot Guidelines
Under certain circumstances giving the towed glider the rope may worsen their predicament. If possible, without significantly jeopardizing your situation, attempt to maneuver the tow plane in front of the glider so as to allow the glider to gain enough altitude to set up a safe landing.
<
>
jimrooney
Here we go again with more of the "you're better on tow in a bad situation" BS.
<
If you wanna see how much abuse even a wimpy trike can take without breaking a sweat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4
Anecdotal... Find me a single incident of a tug fucked over by a glider.
-
I'll be responding to:
Oh no! more on weak links
and any other spinoff topic here to keep things from getting fragmented.
-
Carlos,
Thanks much for the invaluable first hand account. Forgive me though for taking some issue with your lessons learned.
>
my body was off centered and could not reach the release
<
>
USHPA SOP 12-02.10:B:6
A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot.
<
Mistake #1: Failure to comply with regulations governing FAA Tow Exemption #4144.
Mistake #2: Continued failure to comply with regulations governing FAA Tow Exemption #4144.
Mistake #3: No more - the rest can be written off as shit happens.
Dan,
I DO have a three second interval recording which includes a really cool lockout in which the altitude loss is thirty feet. That's more than enough to get you killed if your starting altitude is twenty-five feet.
P.S. I believe that, by 90 degrees, Carlos was referring to heading - not roll.
Lauren,
>
The weak link Tad gave Paul did not break under pressure that was so violent that it broke the TUG'S weak link. It was a pretty scary incident. (Sometimes regular weak links do not break when they should, either. However, the very first time this particular link should have broken it failed to do so...)
<
The weak link Jim gave Carlos did not break under pressure that was so violent that it broke the TUG'S weak link. It was a pretty scary incident. (Sometimes regular weak links do not break when they should. The very first time this particular link should have broken it failed to do so.)
>
I heard a snap, and then just like the sound of a WWII plane just shut down hurdling to the ground, only the ball of fire was missing. The tug weak link broke off at 1000ft, in less than a second the glider was at 500ft.
<
So, again, I'm STILL having a hard time understanding how the Evil Tad Weak Link was more inconvenient, unreliable, scary, dangerous than the Miraculous Jim Weak Link. Can you tune me in?
Janni,
Yeah, that was tension - versus speed - controlled towing. About the only way a weak link can come into play in that environment is if something jams or locks up.
No, Tad's one of the very few people who DOESN'T have these two mixed up (as recently acknowledged by Donnell Hewett).
Still waiting for your response regarding Jim's agreement with me that by going under 1 G you're asking for trouble. Take your time, make it good.
I'm gonna cut you some slack 'cause you don't tow but...
If I were standing soaking wet in a freezing downpour and Jim were to say, "It's raining.", I would remove my hat, look at the sky, and turn both palms upward.
Anybody who would trust Jim's statements on ANYTHING at this point hasn't been paying attention.
You gotta be REAL careful with that "Obvious" word in this aerotowing game 'cause lotsa stuff the seems so is, in fact, pure crap. Much of what Messieurs Pagen and Bryden wrote on the issue that seems obvious is pure crap.
Short story...
Gliders don't kill tugs - especially Dragonflies. Gliders mostly kill themselves and are all but incapable of killing tugs. A tug, on the other hand, is upon rare occasions capable of killing the glider.
Jim has no useful understanding of weak links.
Somebody once told him that a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot, regardless of the bridle configuration, translates to 1 G for any and every solo glider regardless of its weight. That "fact" was burned into his circuitry on Day 1 and there is no way he can be reprogrammed.
He fails to understand that if he's packing a 450 pound weak link up front it's completely irrelevant what's on the back end of the line once that figure is exceeded.
He fails to understand that a 500 pound weak link on a solo is no more dangerous to the tug than the same thing on a tandem.
He fails to understand that weak link strength is completely irrelevant to any discussion regarding control of either plane.
None of that will ever change either.
For all intents and purposes - only the first ten or fifteen seconds of the tow are dangerous to either party and there are only about three and a half things the glider can do to the tug.
He can pull the tail left, right, or up.
He can't pull the tail down 'cause the runway's there to stop him for a good while after launch - so he can't stall the tug.
He can pull the tail left or right but - what the fuck - who cares?
Most importantly - he can pull the tail up and nose the tug into the ground - and, take note here, NO WEAK LINK CAN PREVENT HIM FROM DOING SO - but:
he's on the other end of a 250 foot line so he can't pull the tail up very fast; and
the tug pilot is REQUIRED to have his finger on the trigger so there's a pretty easy remedy anyway.
The only other thing the glider can do to the tug is to increase drag by abruptly stalling, locking out, or lawn darting and the weak link WILL protect the tug if neither pilot takes other appropriate action. (Note: There's no telling what the glider will end up looking like after the weak link kicks in at that altitude.)
The scenarios in which Jim's cut 'em all loose and let God sort 'em out later cure-all approach can kill people...
glider is mushing (Bill and Mike), tip stalled (Danny), oscillating (Holly, Bob), locking out but climbing (John Dullahan).
In only one of these instances - Bill and Mike - was the tug's safety being compromised and, in that case, not until things had been allowed to deteriorate for a long time and into the point of no return.
>
USHGA Tug Pilot Guidelines
Under certain circumstances giving the towed glider the rope may worsen their predicament. If possible, without significantly jeopardizing your situation, attempt to maneuver the tow plane in front of the glider so as to allow the glider to gain enough altitude to set up a safe landing.
<
>
jimrooney
Here we go again with more of the "you're better on tow in a bad situation" BS.
<
If you wanna see how much abuse even a wimpy trike can take without breaking a sweat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4
Anecdotal... Find me a single incident of a tug fucked over by a glider.
-
I'll be responding to:
Oh no! more on weak links
and any other spinoff topic here to keep things from getting fragmented.
-
Carlos,
Thanks much for the invaluable first hand account. Forgive me though for taking some issue with your lessons learned.
>
my body was off centered and could not reach the release
<
>
USHPA SOP 12-02.10:B:6
A release must be placed at the hang glider end of the tow line within easy reach of the pilot.
<
Mistake #1: Failure to comply with regulations governing FAA Tow Exemption #4144.
Mistake #2: Continued failure to comply with regulations governing FAA Tow Exemption #4144.
Mistake #3: No more - the rest can be written off as shit happens.
Dan,
I DO have a three second interval recording which includes a really cool lockout in which the altitude loss is thirty feet. That's more than enough to get you killed if your starting altitude is twenty-five feet.
P.S. I believe that, by 90 degrees, Carlos was referring to heading - not roll.
Lauren,
>
The weak link Tad gave Paul did not break under pressure that was so violent that it broke the TUG'S weak link. It was a pretty scary incident. (Sometimes regular weak links do not break when they should, either. However, the very first time this particular link should have broken it failed to do so...)
<
The weak link Jim gave Carlos did not break under pressure that was so violent that it broke the TUG'S weak link. It was a pretty scary incident. (Sometimes regular weak links do not break when they should. The very first time this particular link should have broken it failed to do so.)
>
I heard a snap, and then just like the sound of a WWII plane just shut down hurdling to the ground, only the ball of fire was missing. The tug weak link broke off at 1000ft, in less than a second the glider was at 500ft.
<
So, again, I'm STILL having a hard time understanding how the Evil Tad Weak Link was more inconvenient, unreliable, scary, dangerous than the Miraculous Jim Weak Link. Can you tune me in?
Janni,
Yeah, that was tension - versus speed - controlled towing. About the only way a weak link can come into play in that environment is if something jams or locks up.
No, Tad's one of the very few people who DOESN'T have these two mixed up (as recently acknowledged by Donnell Hewett).
Still waiting for your response regarding Jim's agreement with me that by going under 1 G you're asking for trouble. Take your time, make it good.
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
>
More than 18months ago 2007, under during a turn when tow forces were too strong, my weak link broke. But bridle was still attached to the tug because the bridle was coiled and had wrapped itself around the carabiner. However I had left the weak link intended for pro-tow on the harness and it broke. This happened in no more than 2 seconds.
Since then I when I set-up I make sure the bridle has no twists and still keep the pro-tow weak link.
I welcome any face-to-face questions or comments on these incidents. Anyone who wants recommendations for their towing or training, you have a great pool of knowledge in the tow parks especially from the ones that do it regularly and have the experience in the tug and behind the tug.
<
Sometimes I just don't read things carefully enough before I click "Submit".
If you don't have a weak link at the top end of your primary/two-point bridle and BOTH ends of your secondary/one-point bridle YOU DON'T HAVE A WEAK LINK at your end of the tow line.
ALL secondary bridles - 'cept for the ones I make - are WAY too long and the primary/secondary interface sucks.
Primary bridles can and do wrap before clearing the tow ring (carabiner). If/When that happens the primary weak link is neutralized.
The popular recommended (read insane) configuration for the secondary bridle is to install a weak link on only one end and, in the absence of a twin, that end is the one opposite the barrel release.
Secondary bridles - other than mine - can and do wrap/jam before clearing the primary.
The primary wraps at the tow ring, the secondary wraps at the primary - you don't have a weak link. This HAS happened.
If you wanna see how to do things right...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/
>
Anyone who wants recommendations for their towing or training, you have a great pool of knowledge in the tow parks especially from the ones that do it regularly and have the experience in the tug and behind the tug.
<
Bullshit.
If this were true Karen and Glen wouldn't be getting issued identical weak links, there would be no curved pin barrel releases, Carlos wouldn't be flying with a release actuator mounted where he can't get to it when he most needs to, Lauren, Janni, Matthew, and Karen wouldn't have had velcroed on brake levers spin to the side when they tried to actuate their releases, Holly wouldn't have a face full of titanium, and Robin Strid would have been able to relaunch a few minutes later.
People who do the same things wrong over and over just get better at doing the same things wrong over and over and convincing themselves they're doing it that way for some sane reason.
If you're looking for great pools of knowledge...
GO TO THE BASICS...
-
Skyting Criteria
http://www.birrendesign.com/rhgpa_criteria.html
Been around for well over a quarter century. Needs a few minor tweaks but whenever you attend some "celebration of life" affair for one of your buddies you can always trace things back to at least one major violation of those guidelines.
-
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure 12-02
Pilot Proficiency Program
2.10 Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
A. Aero Tow Vehicle Pilot Rating
B. Aero Vehicle Requirements
C. Aerotow Special Skill Endorsement
Aerotowing Guidelines
Tug Pilot Guidelines
USHGA Tow Committee
Release Test Procedures
described in:
Towing Aloft
Appendix III
-
United States Federal Aviation Administration
FAR Part 91.309
-
If you must get your information from a tow park:
http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/
Nice to see someone thinking out there.
-
More than 18months ago 2007, under during a turn when tow forces were too strong, my weak link broke. But bridle was still attached to the tug because the bridle was coiled and had wrapped itself around the carabiner. However I had left the weak link intended for pro-tow on the harness and it broke. This happened in no more than 2 seconds.
Since then I when I set-up I make sure the bridle has no twists and still keep the pro-tow weak link.
I welcome any face-to-face questions or comments on these incidents. Anyone who wants recommendations for their towing or training, you have a great pool of knowledge in the tow parks especially from the ones that do it regularly and have the experience in the tug and behind the tug.
<
Sometimes I just don't read things carefully enough before I click "Submit".
If you don't have a weak link at the top end of your primary/two-point bridle and BOTH ends of your secondary/one-point bridle YOU DON'T HAVE A WEAK LINK at your end of the tow line.
ALL secondary bridles - 'cept for the ones I make - are WAY too long and the primary/secondary interface sucks.
Primary bridles can and do wrap before clearing the tow ring (carabiner). If/When that happens the primary weak link is neutralized.
The popular recommended (read insane) configuration for the secondary bridle is to install a weak link on only one end and, in the absence of a twin, that end is the one opposite the barrel release.
Secondary bridles - other than mine - can and do wrap/jam before clearing the primary.
The primary wraps at the tow ring, the secondary wraps at the primary - you don't have a weak link. This HAS happened.
If you wanna see how to do things right...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/
>
Anyone who wants recommendations for their towing or training, you have a great pool of knowledge in the tow parks especially from the ones that do it regularly and have the experience in the tug and behind the tug.
<
Bullshit.
If this were true Karen and Glen wouldn't be getting issued identical weak links, there would be no curved pin barrel releases, Carlos wouldn't be flying with a release actuator mounted where he can't get to it when he most needs to, Lauren, Janni, Matthew, and Karen wouldn't have had velcroed on brake levers spin to the side when they tried to actuate their releases, Holly wouldn't have a face full of titanium, and Robin Strid would have been able to relaunch a few minutes later.
People who do the same things wrong over and over just get better at doing the same things wrong over and over and convincing themselves they're doing it that way for some sane reason.
If you're looking for great pools of knowledge...
GO TO THE BASICS...
-
Skyting Criteria
http://www.birrendesign.com/rhgpa_criteria.html
Been around for well over a quarter century. Needs a few minor tweaks but whenever you attend some "celebration of life" affair for one of your buddies you can always trace things back to at least one major violation of those guidelines.
-
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure 12-02
Pilot Proficiency Program
2.10 Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
A. Aero Tow Vehicle Pilot Rating
B. Aero Vehicle Requirements
C. Aerotow Special Skill Endorsement
Aerotowing Guidelines
Tug Pilot Guidelines
USHGA Tow Committee
Release Test Procedures
described in:
Towing Aloft
Appendix III
-
United States Federal Aviation Administration
FAR Part 91.309
-
If you must get your information from a tow park:
http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/
Nice to see someone thinking out there.
-
Re: Weak link question
Indeed a nice site, Tad.
Sounds like they agree with most experienced pilots and instructors that a regular weak link will offer a chance of protection against lockouts in aerotow. Sounds like you got the two mixed up indeed.The biggest fallacy in towing is that a weak link will protect you from a lockout. For ground towing this is wrong...//...On aerotow a weak link will limit the duration of a lockout because the short rope and lack of direct tension control gives less scope for the glider to diverge from the appropriate flight path - of course you could still hit the ground before the weak link breaks. Moral. Lockout=Release. Now.
#1 Rogue Pilot
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
I'm not the least bit interested in the opinions of most experienced pilots and instructors - just of the one or two percent of them that know what the hell they're talking about.
Now, exactly what part of:
THE BIGGEST FALLACY IN TOWING IS THAT A WEAK LINK WILL PROTECT YOU FROM A LOCKOUT.
is it that you are having such enormous difficulty understanding?
Now, exactly what part of:
THE BIGGEST FALLACY IN TOWING IS THAT A WEAK LINK WILL PROTECT YOU FROM A LOCKOUT.
is it that you are having such enormous difficulty understanding?
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
Yeah, but with respect to AEROTOWING - as you quoted, they're also saying:
>
...of course you could still hit the ground before the weak link breaks. Moral. Lockout=Release. Now.
<
I've got a couple of REAL good examples of what can happen to people who sit around waiting for their weak links to break in low level emergency situations. Stick around.
>
...of course you could still hit the ground before the weak link breaks. Moral. Lockout=Release. Now.
<
I've got a couple of REAL good examples of what can happen to people who sit around waiting for their weak links to break in low level emergency situations. Stick around.
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
>
2004/09
Hang Gliding and Paragliding
Joe Gregor
2004/06/24
14:00 - approximately
Hang Glide Chicago
Cushing Field
Sheridan IL 60551
Mike Haas
53 year-old male, H4
LiteSport 147
W 5 mph, thermally
Highly experienced mountain pilot aerotowing a newly-purchased glider experienced a lockout at low altitude. Witness reports indicate that the glider began oscillating immediately after leaving the launch dolly. The weak link broke after the glider entered a lockout attitude. Once free, the glider was reportedly too low (50-65' AGL, estimated) to recover from the unusual attitude and impacted the ground in a steep dive. The pilot suffered fatal injuries due to blunt trauma. There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release. Reports indicate that this was possibly only the second time the incident pilot had flown this new glider (a replacement for a smaller Xtralite 137), and that the previous flight had taken place at a foot-launch site. The pilot's last reported aerotow flight at this site took place in October of 2003.
<
The runway is north/south so we're talking about a fairly negligible ninety cross.
Let's put him in dead center - 195 pounds - in the middle of the hook-in range for that glider.
Magic Weak Link gives him 0.92 Gs (0.08 Gs BELOW what Jim says you should use).
>
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
<
OF COURSE there was no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to fire his Wallaby-style tow release. He was scared shitless, the actuator was way the fuck over and up on his starboard downtube - instead of in his hand on the basetube, and he was full time trying to fly the glider.
The weak link blew at a minimum of fifty feet but at that point he was living on borrowed time anyway.
>
2004/06/18 18:04:33
Holly N. Korzilius
semperfly@...
Another Weak Link Story
Alrighty.... with all the accident reports and talks of weak link breaks and my previous post about my Litesport being a little bit more challenging to fly on tow, I suppose I oughta spill my guts:-)
I set up the Litesport and got a truck tow in last Saturday evening. I figured a truck tow would be a good thing since it was my first flight on my Litesport this year. All went well and I played around on my way back to earth.
Sunday, I got a couple ATs in. My first one had an exciting start... I came out of the dolly fine and all was good until the tug lifted off the ground. I got a little low and pushed out to stay with the tug. Next thing I know, I get locked out, the weak link snapped (I think folks heard the weak link break in the next county, it snapped with such force) and I did a really cool lookin' wing over/stall recovery from about 150 feet over the corn to the east of the N/S runway. I was so low after recovering from the stall and preoccupied with setting up to land that I didn't have time to take off the 1/2 VG I had on, so I did a cross wind landing w/ the ground zoomin' past me. I flared fine and took a few quick steps in the low alfalfa before the glider settled to the ground. I was annoyed at not being able to correct my glider's attitude prior to the weaklink break. I thought I had been giving the proper roll input, but was later told by Steve that I was cross controllin' like crazy. This has been a minor problem in the past and with this more serious manifestation, I paused to reflect.
Actually, the reflection took place later on Sunday. I took another entirely uneventful tow right after I landed and Tex took me to 2300 ft. I came down a bit (to 1900) and found some lift to take me back up to about 2200 before loosing it and coming back to earth.
Anyway... Steve and I chatted about my lock out situation a bit and I think we pieced together all that happened. Getting low behind the tug that close to the ground was error #1 as this put me in a position where I needed to push out (thus slow down) to catch up with the tug. Error #2: Without sufficient airspeed, my 1/2 as*ed control inputs proved worthless. Error #3: Additionally, since I have a tendency to lead w/ my head a bit, given the rapidly worsing turn, my hips fell to the inside of the turn while my head stayed high thus exaserbating the problem (nasty cross control). While thermalling on my second flight, I took greater note of how I was initiating control inputs and the greater amount of effort/stength required to move my hips to initiate a roll, and even greater effort needed to carve figure 8's.
So... lessons learned are:
a. Stay a little high behind the tug until I get a few hundred feet above the ground to avoid a situation where I have to push out/get slow to climb with the tug
b. Be more aware of my airspeed and don't fly slow
c. Stop initiating turns with my head, no matter how slight the movement; get my feet and hips over and keep my head centered
d. I need to fly more so that I can develop greater strength in my "flying muscles" :-)
The good news is I learned a few lessons, got to fly the Litesport, and proved to myself that I'm not going to kill myself in the process:-)
<
The bad news is that two weeks shy of a year later - as we all know - she came close enough to killing herself in the process of towing her Litesport that the distinction was fairly academic.
Lessons NOT learned were - DO NOT:
use a release that you may not be able to get to while you're flailing around on the end of the rope;
wait around for the weak link to do your job for you and take care of whatever problem you happen to be experiencing;
count on the tug pilot to do the right thing at the right time; and
expect to survive more than one or two low level lockouts.
2004/09
Hang Gliding and Paragliding
Joe Gregor
2004/06/24
14:00 - approximately
Hang Glide Chicago
Cushing Field
Sheridan IL 60551
Mike Haas
53 year-old male, H4
LiteSport 147
W 5 mph, thermally
Highly experienced mountain pilot aerotowing a newly-purchased glider experienced a lockout at low altitude. Witness reports indicate that the glider began oscillating immediately after leaving the launch dolly. The weak link broke after the glider entered a lockout attitude. Once free, the glider was reportedly too low (50-65' AGL, estimated) to recover from the unusual attitude and impacted the ground in a steep dive. The pilot suffered fatal injuries due to blunt trauma. There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release. Reports indicate that this was possibly only the second time the incident pilot had flown this new glider (a replacement for a smaller Xtralite 137), and that the previous flight had taken place at a foot-launch site. The pilot's last reported aerotow flight at this site took place in October of 2003.
<
The runway is north/south so we're talking about a fairly negligible ninety cross.
Let's put him in dead center - 195 pounds - in the middle of the hook-in range for that glider.
Magic Weak Link gives him 0.92 Gs (0.08 Gs BELOW what Jim says you should use).
>
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
<
OF COURSE there was no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to fire his Wallaby-style tow release. He was scared shitless, the actuator was way the fuck over and up on his starboard downtube - instead of in his hand on the basetube, and he was full time trying to fly the glider.
The weak link blew at a minimum of fifty feet but at that point he was living on borrowed time anyway.
>
2004/06/18 18:04:33
Holly N. Korzilius
semperfly@...
Another Weak Link Story
Alrighty.... with all the accident reports and talks of weak link breaks and my previous post about my Litesport being a little bit more challenging to fly on tow, I suppose I oughta spill my guts:-)
I set up the Litesport and got a truck tow in last Saturday evening. I figured a truck tow would be a good thing since it was my first flight on my Litesport this year. All went well and I played around on my way back to earth.
Sunday, I got a couple ATs in. My first one had an exciting start... I came out of the dolly fine and all was good until the tug lifted off the ground. I got a little low and pushed out to stay with the tug. Next thing I know, I get locked out, the weak link snapped (I think folks heard the weak link break in the next county, it snapped with such force) and I did a really cool lookin' wing over/stall recovery from about 150 feet over the corn to the east of the N/S runway. I was so low after recovering from the stall and preoccupied with setting up to land that I didn't have time to take off the 1/2 VG I had on, so I did a cross wind landing w/ the ground zoomin' past me. I flared fine and took a few quick steps in the low alfalfa before the glider settled to the ground. I was annoyed at not being able to correct my glider's attitude prior to the weaklink break. I thought I had been giving the proper roll input, but was later told by Steve that I was cross controllin' like crazy. This has been a minor problem in the past and with this more serious manifestation, I paused to reflect.
Actually, the reflection took place later on Sunday. I took another entirely uneventful tow right after I landed and Tex took me to 2300 ft. I came down a bit (to 1900) and found some lift to take me back up to about 2200 before loosing it and coming back to earth.
Anyway... Steve and I chatted about my lock out situation a bit and I think we pieced together all that happened. Getting low behind the tug that close to the ground was error #1 as this put me in a position where I needed to push out (thus slow down) to catch up with the tug. Error #2: Without sufficient airspeed, my 1/2 as*ed control inputs proved worthless. Error #3: Additionally, since I have a tendency to lead w/ my head a bit, given the rapidly worsing turn, my hips fell to the inside of the turn while my head stayed high thus exaserbating the problem (nasty cross control). While thermalling on my second flight, I took greater note of how I was initiating control inputs and the greater amount of effort/stength required to move my hips to initiate a roll, and even greater effort needed to carve figure 8's.
So... lessons learned are:
a. Stay a little high behind the tug until I get a few hundred feet above the ground to avoid a situation where I have to push out/get slow to climb with the tug
b. Be more aware of my airspeed and don't fly slow
c. Stop initiating turns with my head, no matter how slight the movement; get my feet and hips over and keep my head centered
d. I need to fly more so that I can develop greater strength in my "flying muscles" :-)
The good news is I learned a few lessons, got to fly the Litesport, and proved to myself that I'm not going to kill myself in the process:-)
<
The bad news is that two weeks shy of a year later - as we all know - she came close enough to killing herself in the process of towing her Litesport that the distinction was fairly academic.
Lessons NOT learned were - DO NOT:
use a release that you may not be able to get to while you're flailing around on the end of the rope;
wait around for the weak link to do your job for you and take care of whatever problem you happen to be experiencing;
count on the tug pilot to do the right thing at the right time; and
expect to survive more than one or two low level lockouts.
Re: Weak link question
Better mounted releases. Hopefully solid ground we can all agree with.
When showing Sunny my lookout release (loop around the fingers) years ago, he thought he might be uncomfortable with it because it wouldn't let him "climb around on the basetube". But on reflection, that's exactly what you don't want to do on tow: you want to keep the tow point (shoulders) centered while swinging the hips. I've never felt my release hampered my performance while on tow, and I've pulled my way through propwash, having one wheel come off the cart, etc.
Tandem pilots who have to take control from their students may have a different perspective, but for solo tows I think having your hand fixed within 6 inches while on tow is not a bad thing.
When showing Sunny my lookout release (loop around the fingers) years ago, he thought he might be uncomfortable with it because it wouldn't let him "climb around on the basetube". But on reflection, that's exactly what you don't want to do on tow: you want to keep the tow point (shoulders) centered while swinging the hips. I've never felt my release hampered my performance while on tow, and I've pulled my way through propwash, having one wheel come off the cart, etc.
Tandem pilots who have to take control from their students may have a different perspective, but for solo tows I think having your hand fixed within 6 inches while on tow is not a bad thing.
Brian Vant-Hull
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
>
Tad Eareckson
2008/11/23 17:12:27
I have never launched with a release actuator farther away than four inches inboard of the port end of the basetube. At that range I was scared towing.
After experiencing a real exciting lockout seven and a half years ago I decided the range was - indeed - WAY too far and shortly thereafter engineered what today remains the best means of firing a two point release anywhere.
<
Six inches is TOO FREAKING FAR.
If there were some cost - price, weight, drag, convenience, control - to having finger on the trigger capability or some advantage to or safety tradeoff involved in not having it, we could start talking inches.
THERE IS NOTHING.
The only reasons gliders - two or one point, solo or tandem - are not properly and safely configured for aerotowing is that people are sold and buy crap and taught that it's acceptable. It's not.
Reading about Carlos being locked out, unable to access his release, and losing five hundred feet (or, what the hell, fifty feet) in a heartbeat should scare the shit out of everyone who flies with that configuration. It doesn't.
If, however, Paul gets the rope 'cause the tug can't handle a 1.4 G weak link on a medium large glider - out come the torches and pitchforks en masse.
This is a hopelessly stupid culture.
Tad Eareckson
2008/11/23 17:12:27
I have never launched with a release actuator farther away than four inches inboard of the port end of the basetube. At that range I was scared towing.
After experiencing a real exciting lockout seven and a half years ago I decided the range was - indeed - WAY too far and shortly thereafter engineered what today remains the best means of firing a two point release anywhere.
<
Six inches is TOO FREAKING FAR.
If there were some cost - price, weight, drag, convenience, control - to having finger on the trigger capability or some advantage to or safety tradeoff involved in not having it, we could start talking inches.
THERE IS NOTHING.
The only reasons gliders - two or one point, solo or tandem - are not properly and safely configured for aerotowing is that people are sold and buy crap and taught that it's acceptable. It's not.
Reading about Carlos being locked out, unable to access his release, and losing five hundred feet (or, what the hell, fifty feet) in a heartbeat should scare the shit out of everyone who flies with that configuration. It doesn't.
If, however, Paul gets the rope 'cause the tug can't handle a 1.4 G weak link on a medium large glider - out come the torches and pitchforks en masse.
This is a hopelessly stupid culture.
Re: Weak link question
I meant 6 inches total travel given a 3 inch loop, including on the wrong side of the release.
Brian Vant-Hull
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
I think I follow that.
Having things configured such that you don't have to find and grab anything is a big plus but anything you can do to minimize travel is money in the bank. I can blow just by twisting my grip fore with no slide required.
>
Anyone who wants recommendations for their towing or training, you have a great pool of knowledge in the tow parks especially from the ones that do it regularly and have the experience in the tug and behind the tug.
<
OK, here's how you start mining all that tow park knowledge and experience from in and behind the tug...
You stop listening to what THEY'RE SAYING and start watching what THEY'RE DOING.
Everybody remember what Deep Throat (no relation) said in the parking garage in that movie? Right - "Follow the money."
The flight parks don't make any money on thermal pilots. They rake it in on tandem rides and - I'm guessing to a much lesser extent - lessons. This income allows them to subsidize our tows so I'm not bitching much, but economically and, I get the feeling, in practice, they don't give a rat's ass whether or not I get up into air that'll keep me in it for a couple of hours. In fact - if the timing is such that I get dropped off in crap - they might come out ahead 'cause I might be tempted into a relight or two.
They - of course - DON'T wanna fuck around with the rides.
As per our discussion last spring...
We've been trying - with predictably miserable success - to get these idiot standup landings down for three and a half decades and breaking downtubes and arms left and right while trying to convince ourselves that this technique is making us SAFER.
The ride guys know this is bullshit. They don't want to be bending aluminum and battering themselves and their paying customers all the time so they just do it the sane way and roll thousands upon thousands of them in on the wheels with never a hint of incident whatsoever.
Neither do they want to be dicking around with all these spontaneous weak link breaks to which we larger-than-Karen people are subjected ALL THE TIME.
They instinctively know that weak links - practically speaking - aren't doing them any good so they beef them up to a point at which they only pop at a rate of one in five hundred - instead of the one in five crap they give us. (And I'm pretty sure the only reason the tandem rate is that high is 'cause they don't bother replacing them often enough). That way when someone pays for a mile - he gets a mile. And they don't waste any time getting back for the next miler.
Until sometime within the past two seasons there were double loops of Greenspot on bridles at both ends of the tow line but the configuration was such that the back end was very likely to blow first.
It was decided (and I'm not convinced of the justification) that the tow mast couldn't handle the peak loads of that configuration so they apparently dumbed the front weak link down a strand and accepted the risk of the tandem getting the rope 'cause the frequency was gonna be microscopic anyway.
Funny - that's EXACTLY the approach I adopted independently and FIRST. (And the Intelligent Design folk argue against the existence of Darwinian evolution.)
Really crappy towing conditions translate to really good soaring conditions so I always tow in the crappiest towing conditions within my capability of predicting.
And I can TOTALLY guarantee you that there is NEVER a shortage of tandem rides going up while I'm overheating in line.
So you've got these unmaneuverable big pigs going up CONSTANTLY in really trashy air with doubled weak links and pilots having to do the control work for two...
So wouldn't one predict that THEY'D be the ones always ripping the tow line off the tug, locking out, and dropping out of the sky like lawyers at a Vice Presidential cage bird slaughtering party ALL THE TIME instead of - like - NEVER? Kinda like Karen should've been dead a long, LONG time ago?
Having things configured such that you don't have to find and grab anything is a big plus but anything you can do to minimize travel is money in the bank. I can blow just by twisting my grip fore with no slide required.
>
Anyone who wants recommendations for their towing or training, you have a great pool of knowledge in the tow parks especially from the ones that do it regularly and have the experience in the tug and behind the tug.
<
OK, here's how you start mining all that tow park knowledge and experience from in and behind the tug...
You stop listening to what THEY'RE SAYING and start watching what THEY'RE DOING.
Everybody remember what Deep Throat (no relation) said in the parking garage in that movie? Right - "Follow the money."
The flight parks don't make any money on thermal pilots. They rake it in on tandem rides and - I'm guessing to a much lesser extent - lessons. This income allows them to subsidize our tows so I'm not bitching much, but economically and, I get the feeling, in practice, they don't give a rat's ass whether or not I get up into air that'll keep me in it for a couple of hours. In fact - if the timing is such that I get dropped off in crap - they might come out ahead 'cause I might be tempted into a relight or two.
They - of course - DON'T wanna fuck around with the rides.
As per our discussion last spring...
We've been trying - with predictably miserable success - to get these idiot standup landings down for three and a half decades and breaking downtubes and arms left and right while trying to convince ourselves that this technique is making us SAFER.
The ride guys know this is bullshit. They don't want to be bending aluminum and battering themselves and their paying customers all the time so they just do it the sane way and roll thousands upon thousands of them in on the wheels with never a hint of incident whatsoever.
Neither do they want to be dicking around with all these spontaneous weak link breaks to which we larger-than-Karen people are subjected ALL THE TIME.
They instinctively know that weak links - practically speaking - aren't doing them any good so they beef them up to a point at which they only pop at a rate of one in five hundred - instead of the one in five crap they give us. (And I'm pretty sure the only reason the tandem rate is that high is 'cause they don't bother replacing them often enough). That way when someone pays for a mile - he gets a mile. And they don't waste any time getting back for the next miler.
Until sometime within the past two seasons there were double loops of Greenspot on bridles at both ends of the tow line but the configuration was such that the back end was very likely to blow first.
It was decided (and I'm not convinced of the justification) that the tow mast couldn't handle the peak loads of that configuration so they apparently dumbed the front weak link down a strand and accepted the risk of the tandem getting the rope 'cause the frequency was gonna be microscopic anyway.
Funny - that's EXACTLY the approach I adopted independently and FIRST. (And the Intelligent Design folk argue against the existence of Darwinian evolution.)
Really crappy towing conditions translate to really good soaring conditions so I always tow in the crappiest towing conditions within my capability of predicting.
And I can TOTALLY guarantee you that there is NEVER a shortage of tandem rides going up while I'm overheating in line.
So you've got these unmaneuverable big pigs going up CONSTANTLY in really trashy air with doubled weak links and pilots having to do the control work for two...
So wouldn't one predict that THEY'D be the ones always ripping the tow line off the tug, locking out, and dropping out of the sky like lawyers at a Vice Presidential cage bird slaughtering party ALL THE TIME instead of - like - NEVER? Kinda like Karen should've been dead a long, LONG time ago?
Re: Weak link question
In my experience the tug pilots at Ridgely drop you off in lift if there is any out there to be found and they are pretty good at finding it.
Re: Weak link question
First off--- dropping you off in lift. Good one. LOL!
And Tad-- would you please stop trying to kill off my wife?
Matthew
And Tad-- would you please stop trying to kill off my wife?
Matthew
Re: Weak link question
For Tad,
To let go doesn't mean to stop caring;
It means I can't do it for someone else.
To let go is not to cut myself off...
It's the realization that I can't control another...
To let go is not to enable,
but to allow learning from natural consequences.
To let go is to admit powerlessness,
which means the outcome is not in my hands.
To let go is not to try and change or blame another,
I can only change myself.
To let go is not to care for, but to care about.
To let go is not to fix, but to be supportive.
To let go is not to judge,
but to allow another to be a human being.
To let go is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes,
but to allow others to affect their own outcomes.
To let go is not to be protective,
It is to permit another to face reality.
To let go is not to deny, but to accept.
To let go is not to nag, scold, or argue,
but to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.
To let go is not to adjust everything to my desires,
but to take each day as it comes and cherish the moment.
To let go is not to criticize and regulate anyone,
but to try to become what I dream I can be.
To let go is not to regret the past,
but to grow and live for the future.
To let go is to fear less and love more.
Love, Janni
To let go doesn't mean to stop caring;
It means I can't do it for someone else.
To let go is not to cut myself off...
It's the realization that I can't control another...
To let go is not to enable,
but to allow learning from natural consequences.
To let go is to admit powerlessness,
which means the outcome is not in my hands.
To let go is not to try and change or blame another,
I can only change myself.
To let go is not to care for, but to care about.
To let go is not to fix, but to be supportive.
To let go is not to judge,
but to allow another to be a human being.
To let go is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes,
but to allow others to affect their own outcomes.
To let go is not to be protective,
It is to permit another to face reality.
To let go is not to deny, but to accept.
To let go is not to nag, scold, or argue,
but to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.
To let go is not to adjust everything to my desires,
but to take each day as it comes and cherish the moment.
To let go is not to criticize and regulate anyone,
but to try to become what I dream I can be.
To let go is not to regret the past,
but to grow and live for the future.
To let go is to fear less and love more.
Love, Janni
#1 Rogue Pilot
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
Janni,
"To let go" is the slimeball tactic that folk like Jim, JR, Chris, Cragin, Marc, and others who often "participate" in these discussions use to declare victory and slink away, hoping that no one will notice the that their positions have crumbled beyond any hope of salvation and/or that the substance is way beyond the range of their limited intellectual capacities.
I've done you and everyone else who's participated in this thread the courtesy of addressing each and every point raised. I'm still waiting for you to reciprocate on the matter of several very critical questions.
"To let go" is the slimeball tactic that folk like Jim, JR, Chris, Cragin, Marc, and others who often "participate" in these discussions use to declare victory and slink away, hoping that no one will notice the that their positions have crumbled beyond any hope of salvation and/or that the substance is way beyond the range of their limited intellectual capacities.
I've done you and everyone else who's participated in this thread the courtesy of addressing each and every point raised. I'm still waiting for you to reciprocate on the matter of several very critical questions.
Re: Weak link question
Always forgive your enemies - nothing annoys them so much.
~ Oscar Wilde
~ Oscar Wilde
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
Gary,
What do you know... I'm an admirer of his too. Visited his birthplace and Merrion Square statue two and a half months ago in fact.
In deference, I'll think it over. But I'm getting pretty tired of this pattern of people citing sources in complete agreement and support of my position and saying, "SEE! Told ya so. Bye."
2006/02/05
Laminar
Wallaby release - actuator on downtube
>
Towing at Quest
2006/02/06 22:21:22
johndullahan@...
hg_forum@chgpa.org
With winds of 10-12 mph I waited for a few minutes for a lull before giving the take-off signal. Lift -off from the cart was nice and level, but at about 10 ft the right wing was suddenly and violently lifted (Paul said a strong thermal came through just as I left the cart and pilots had to hold down their gliders). Almost immediately the glider went into a lockout and the weak link broke just as I hit the release. The high right wing put me into a left turn, so I committed to making a complete 360 back into the wind as the best option. At the 180 point I was about 20 ft over the ground and flying very fast downwind, so to avoid a downwind stall I pulled in slightly then pushed out to gain a little altitude before completing the 360. I almost got it around but couldn't quite pull it off, so the left corner of the control frame dug into the ground taking out the right downtube and fractured a small bone in my wrist (the ulnar styloid). I got a small soft cast which allows use of the hand for driving etc.
...
The two people with me at the cart release didn't notice the thermal activity at the gliders, which were downwind and behind us.
Besides the windsock, which was about 250 yards away and 2 o'clock from my position (right front) there was a streamer about 100 yards away and 11 o'clock (left front). The windsock was about 30 degrees below the horizontal and indicating the wind was from the west, the direction of takeoff, and the streamer indicated similar conditions closer to launch.
The incident demonstrated the few options available when towing in winds of 10-12 mph and a wing is suddenly and violently lifted close to the ground - a lockout often ensues very quickly and the glider is pulled into a turn before either the pilot can release or the weak link breaks, and a dangerous situation ensues (flying downwind close to the ground).
With a similar wing lift at a mountain site I think the pilot has more options, such as pulling-in if airspeed is low, or immediately and aggressively high-siding (without having to remove one hand from the base tube to release).
The experience gives me a very healthy respect for any thermal activity during towing, especially when combined with winds over about 8 mph.
...
<
>
Towing at Quest
2006/02/07 09:30:34
tjadenhors@aol.com
hg_forum@chgpa.org
...I looked under my wing to watch the launch and was horrified to see John's wing turn violently left just a few feet off the cart. From my perspective it looked as though he would impact in a hard diving turn to the left and I was amazed to see that he was able to pull it together and make the turn downwind. He continued on around, just missing a tree, and managed to get the glider mostly back into the wind before the left tip dug in and brought him down to a hard landing.
I don't know if John realized how close he came to a REALLY severe accident. It scared the hell out of me. He also did a spectacular job of piloting to avoid a major wreck. Good lesson, never give up, just keep flying that wing until it stops.
...
Paul
<
>
Re: $15 pacifiers
2006/02/18 19:57:15
Tjadenhors@aol.com
hg_forum@chgpa.org
...
As to landing downwind, we were launching with our tails VERY close to a pine forest to the east. This area also slopes down hill towards the forest. Had John not attempted to turn back upwind he would probably have continued down hill and downwind until he stopped very abruptly with his head stuck into a large tree...
Paul T.
<
This is pretty much a no fault situation in which any of us could find ourselves. Once the cart started rolling there was nothing that the tug or the glider could have done better or faster but we still get a broken wrist out of the deal.
>
jimrooney
2008/11/22 22:31:35
...any tow pilot that takes you over something you can't get out from should be shot.
<
So that means that we've gotta take Lisa out 'cause John was deprived of the option of a level downwind landing by the local geography. That also means that we've got to start standing against a wall all other tug pilots who've towed Quest Runway 27 in west 10-12 or better. (Lisa wouldn't be one of my top picks.)
>
Skyting Criteria
Group 3 - Practical Implementation
12: Suitable Environment
<
So we violate the criteria often enough, we pay a price. (Would I launch in the same circumstances - assuming the same blissful ignorance of what was going on behind me? Yeah.)
>
the weak link broke just as I hit the release.
<
As a result of my experience and observation, I have a tendency not to buy that "the weak link broke just as I hit the release." when the core mechanism is a spinnaker shackle. I believe that the weak link is breaking as a RESULT of hitting the release. I believe that it's getting shredded as under high load it's trying to clear the jagged metal at the end of the gate. I've felt this happening under similar but much higher circumstances.
So I think it's a REAL BAD idea to assume that John would have been just as well off if he had kept both hands on the basetube and waited for the pop.
Having read these and other accounts I think it's real safe to say that extra time on tow wasn't increasing the probability of a better outcome for this particular situation.
One thing we know for a certainty - It takes more time to remove one's hand from the basetube and hit a lever on the downtube than it does to:
squeeze a lever on the downtube (Matthew);
slide your hand several inches inboard (Brian); or
rotate your grip a quarter turn forward (me).
We'll skip relaxing your bite (Steve) for the time being 'cause John was towing two point.
>
With a similar wing lift at a mountain site I think the pilot has more options, such as pulling-in if airspeed is low, or immediately and aggressively high-siding (WITHOUT HAVING TO REMOVE ONE HAND FROM THE BASE TUBE TO RELEASE).
<
>
I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release.
<
Skyting Criteria
GROUP 2 - Safe Transition
06: Reliable Releases
THE RELEASE DEVICES AND THEIR ACTIVATION METHODS MUST BE STURDY, RAPID, AND RELIABLE. (RELEASE ACTIVATION MUST BE READILY ACCESSIBLE TO THE PILOT REGARDLESS OF WHERE HIS HANDS ARE OR WHERE HIS BODY HAS SHIFTED. Only single-point release systems should be used.)
So why the hell after over a quarter century since the publication of this stupidly obvious and easily satisfied guideline can we not manage to get things right?
What do you know... I'm an admirer of his too. Visited his birthplace and Merrion Square statue two and a half months ago in fact.
In deference, I'll think it over. But I'm getting pretty tired of this pattern of people citing sources in complete agreement and support of my position and saying, "SEE! Told ya so. Bye."
2006/02/05
Laminar
Wallaby release - actuator on downtube
>
Towing at Quest
2006/02/06 22:21:22
johndullahan@...
hg_forum@chgpa.org
With winds of 10-12 mph I waited for a few minutes for a lull before giving the take-off signal. Lift -off from the cart was nice and level, but at about 10 ft the right wing was suddenly and violently lifted (Paul said a strong thermal came through just as I left the cart and pilots had to hold down their gliders). Almost immediately the glider went into a lockout and the weak link broke just as I hit the release. The high right wing put me into a left turn, so I committed to making a complete 360 back into the wind as the best option. At the 180 point I was about 20 ft over the ground and flying very fast downwind, so to avoid a downwind stall I pulled in slightly then pushed out to gain a little altitude before completing the 360. I almost got it around but couldn't quite pull it off, so the left corner of the control frame dug into the ground taking out the right downtube and fractured a small bone in my wrist (the ulnar styloid). I got a small soft cast which allows use of the hand for driving etc.
...
The two people with me at the cart release didn't notice the thermal activity at the gliders, which were downwind and behind us.
Besides the windsock, which was about 250 yards away and 2 o'clock from my position (right front) there was a streamer about 100 yards away and 11 o'clock (left front). The windsock was about 30 degrees below the horizontal and indicating the wind was from the west, the direction of takeoff, and the streamer indicated similar conditions closer to launch.
The incident demonstrated the few options available when towing in winds of 10-12 mph and a wing is suddenly and violently lifted close to the ground - a lockout often ensues very quickly and the glider is pulled into a turn before either the pilot can release or the weak link breaks, and a dangerous situation ensues (flying downwind close to the ground).
With a similar wing lift at a mountain site I think the pilot has more options, such as pulling-in if airspeed is low, or immediately and aggressively high-siding (without having to remove one hand from the base tube to release).
The experience gives me a very healthy respect for any thermal activity during towing, especially when combined with winds over about 8 mph.
...
<
>
Towing at Quest
2006/02/07 09:30:34
tjadenhors@aol.com
hg_forum@chgpa.org
...I looked under my wing to watch the launch and was horrified to see John's wing turn violently left just a few feet off the cart. From my perspective it looked as though he would impact in a hard diving turn to the left and I was amazed to see that he was able to pull it together and make the turn downwind. He continued on around, just missing a tree, and managed to get the glider mostly back into the wind before the left tip dug in and brought him down to a hard landing.
I don't know if John realized how close he came to a REALLY severe accident. It scared the hell out of me. He also did a spectacular job of piloting to avoid a major wreck. Good lesson, never give up, just keep flying that wing until it stops.
...
Paul
<
>
Re: $15 pacifiers
2006/02/18 19:57:15
Tjadenhors@aol.com
hg_forum@chgpa.org
...
As to landing downwind, we were launching with our tails VERY close to a pine forest to the east. This area also slopes down hill towards the forest. Had John not attempted to turn back upwind he would probably have continued down hill and downwind until he stopped very abruptly with his head stuck into a large tree...
Paul T.
<
This is pretty much a no fault situation in which any of us could find ourselves. Once the cart started rolling there was nothing that the tug or the glider could have done better or faster but we still get a broken wrist out of the deal.
>
jimrooney
2008/11/22 22:31:35
...any tow pilot that takes you over something you can't get out from should be shot.
<
So that means that we've gotta take Lisa out 'cause John was deprived of the option of a level downwind landing by the local geography. That also means that we've got to start standing against a wall all other tug pilots who've towed Quest Runway 27 in west 10-12 or better. (Lisa wouldn't be one of my top picks.)
>
Skyting Criteria
Group 3 - Practical Implementation
12: Suitable Environment
<
So we violate the criteria often enough, we pay a price. (Would I launch in the same circumstances - assuming the same blissful ignorance of what was going on behind me? Yeah.)
>
the weak link broke just as I hit the release.
<
As a result of my experience and observation, I have a tendency not to buy that "the weak link broke just as I hit the release." when the core mechanism is a spinnaker shackle. I believe that the weak link is breaking as a RESULT of hitting the release. I believe that it's getting shredded as under high load it's trying to clear the jagged metal at the end of the gate. I've felt this happening under similar but much higher circumstances.
So I think it's a REAL BAD idea to assume that John would have been just as well off if he had kept both hands on the basetube and waited for the pop.
Having read these and other accounts I think it's real safe to say that extra time on tow wasn't increasing the probability of a better outcome for this particular situation.
One thing we know for a certainty - It takes more time to remove one's hand from the basetube and hit a lever on the downtube than it does to:
squeeze a lever on the downtube (Matthew);
slide your hand several inches inboard (Brian); or
rotate your grip a quarter turn forward (me).
We'll skip relaxing your bite (Steve) for the time being 'cause John was towing two point.
>
With a similar wing lift at a mountain site I think the pilot has more options, such as pulling-in if airspeed is low, or immediately and aggressively high-siding (WITHOUT HAVING TO REMOVE ONE HAND FROM THE BASE TUBE TO RELEASE).
<
>
I tried to release but my body was off centered and could not reach the release.
<
Skyting Criteria
GROUP 2 - Safe Transition
06: Reliable Releases
THE RELEASE DEVICES AND THEIR ACTIVATION METHODS MUST BE STURDY, RAPID, AND RELIABLE. (RELEASE ACTIVATION MUST BE READILY ACCESSIBLE TO THE PILOT REGARDLESS OF WHERE HIS HANDS ARE OR WHERE HIS BODY HAS SHIFTED. Only single-point release systems should be used.)
So why the hell after over a quarter century since the publication of this stupidly obvious and easily satisfied guideline can we not manage to get things right?