Weak link question
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
Weak link question
My tows have been pretty consistent and so far my weak links have seemed to go at times that weren't the result of being out of position... the weak link had just been worn down and finally snapped. My question is... when should you replace a weak link, if at all? It seems silly to just let the weak link eventually snap due to wear, considering the time spent + cost involved for those towing who waste a takeoff. Do any of you try to replace your weak link on a regular basis?
Re: Weak link question
Kirk, what is your weight and S2 size? I usually go a season before replacing a weak link and then only because it shows some wear. Weak links should never break in normal towing, unless the conditions are very strong.
Kev
Kev
Re: Weak link question
I flew my sport 2, 135, this weekend, but until now I've been flying a falcon 145. This season I'd say I've had about 4 weak link breaks total, but I've been towing more than most people. I probably average about 4 tows a day, and if conditions are good I go sat and sunday. This last weekend I was about 1500 feet up and the weak link broke for no particular reason that I could see. The others have been at the point that you start to hit turbulence due to wind coming over the trees. I have noticed that after a few tows I can see the link becoming a bit frayed...
Re: Weak link question
Oh and I left out my wieght: 145
Re: Weak link question
You're using a top release, which changes the equation a bit. The metal clip can wear the weaklink, esp depending on how you release. To minimize this, be sure to pull in before releasing which will relieve tension on the weaklink and let it fall out. Our average for tandems is one in fivehundred (guess) if we release well (pulling in to slack the line). If not, we have to change them more often.
How you tow can also degrade things. The more you do it, the better you'll get about anticipating high shock load situations and minimizing them... example... when you're about to slam into the propwash on liftoff, pull in. This will lower the loading on the lines and allow the glider to take the jarring instead. There are other points on tow that this happens, but that's the most obvious example.
With a top release, every month isn't a bad idea.
With protowing... I can't remember the last time I changed mine.
It's just a piece of string (we've got tons) and we're happy to help you change it.
Jim
How you tow can also degrade things. The more you do it, the better you'll get about anticipating high shock load situations and minimizing them... example... when you're about to slam into the propwash on liftoff, pull in. This will lower the loading on the lines and allow the glider to take the jarring instead. There are other points on tow that this happens, but that's the most obvious example.
With a top release, every month isn't a bad idea.
With protowing... I can't remember the last time I changed mine.
It's just a piece of string (we've got tons) and we're happy to help you change it.
Jim
Re: Weak link question
An other excellent solution is to pick up one of Bobby's top releases...
http://www.liteflite.com.au/ProductsBri ... lease.aspx
His use a barrel release on the top as well as shoulders so the weaklink wear is greatly reduced. (still a good idea to pull in)
Jim
http://www.liteflite.com.au/ProductsBri ... lease.aspx
His use a barrel release on the top as well as shoulders so the weaklink wear is greatly reduced. (still a good idea to pull in)
Jim
Re: Weak link question
Ahh very good advice Jim, I'll give that a try. I've certainly noticed visible wear on the weak link after a few tows, so pulling in before release should help a lot. I usually release and then pull in LOL.
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Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
Yeah, you knew I would.
Kirk,
I'm gonna call your Sport 2 hookup weight 230 pounds.
A single loop of Greenspot at the top end of your bridle will give you about 1.0 Gs - in theory. If the theory was any good that would still be a little marginal.
Too see what's wrong with the theory go to:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13573
Any sane understanding of aerotowing floors the allowable weak link strength at 0.8 Gs and both the USHPA and FAA cap it at 2.0. The middle of that safety range is 1.4. And that's what you should be shooting for.
Karen tows at 1.22 Gs and has never popped a link nor been in a position in which she needed or wanted to. You start reducing that margin - you start asking for problems. Those old fuzzy things you've been using are blowing at about 0.5.
Doubling the loop does not - as one might well think - double the strength. It goes from about 140 to 200 pounds. For you and your two point bridle that translates to 1.5 Gs - very close to where you wanna be and well under the USHPA limit.
I strongly recommend you do that. If you want a second opinion...
http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/WeakLinks.html
That comes from one of the small minority of the hang gliding culture which really understands weak links.
You should be breaking them at just about the same frequency that you're deploying your parachute. Which is - right - never. The same frequency that Karen and I do.
I'll take a little issue with Kevin here and state that they should never break until you NEED them to - and you should've released well before you get to that point. Neither strong conditions nor turbulence off the trees should be doing it. Don't allow an understrength weak link to be making your decisions for you.
If you don't trust us... At the very least take a magnifying glass to your weak link after each flight and retire it as soon as you detect broken fibers protruding from the string. Relaunches, as you note, are enormously expensive to everyone concerned - very much including the people waiting in line and watching the soaring window evaporate.
With respect to:
http://www.liteflite.com.au/ProductsBri ... lease.aspx
That's a step in the right direction but any release based on a curved pin is junk. Go to:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/
temp set, to see why.
Several years ago I swapped out my spinnaker shackle for a straight pin barrel release and have had excellent results. If you want something very clean and efficient I can do an installation on your glider. Or I'd be happy to walk you through it if you wanna do it yourself.
If you're not opposed to extra cable in the wind...
Bug the HELL out of toto's_ride. Tim developed an EXCELLENT slap-on release. There should be one in the shop at Ridgely you can take a look at - probably even take for a test drive. He's had a tight year but I've been desperate to get my hands on one so's I can get some photos up.
Tim,
If you're listening, you might want to get a restraining order. I'm considering stalking.
But really, can we get together soon and do a tradeoff? I've been trying to do this for over a year now. I'm quite happy to walk from a Metro station.
Kevin,
Three years and a month ago you wrote:
>
One pilot in the Texas Open had three premature releases in a row with glider damage on all three and different degrees of pilot injury. I myself have had a low level release that caused minor injury.
<
Can I get some more details on those? In particular, were those weak link breaks, release malfunctions, or both. If malfunctions - what was going wrong?
Thanks
P.S.
Those friends of your dad's who recovered my parrot were Chip and Mary Ann Hines.
Last month I tracked down their house when I needed a sitter but from a next door neighbor got their last name and the information that they had moved to Florida.
Kirk,
I'm gonna call your Sport 2 hookup weight 230 pounds.
A single loop of Greenspot at the top end of your bridle will give you about 1.0 Gs - in theory. If the theory was any good that would still be a little marginal.
Too see what's wrong with the theory go to:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13573
Any sane understanding of aerotowing floors the allowable weak link strength at 0.8 Gs and both the USHPA and FAA cap it at 2.0. The middle of that safety range is 1.4. And that's what you should be shooting for.
Karen tows at 1.22 Gs and has never popped a link nor been in a position in which she needed or wanted to. You start reducing that margin - you start asking for problems. Those old fuzzy things you've been using are blowing at about 0.5.
Doubling the loop does not - as one might well think - double the strength. It goes from about 140 to 200 pounds. For you and your two point bridle that translates to 1.5 Gs - very close to where you wanna be and well under the USHPA limit.
I strongly recommend you do that. If you want a second opinion...
http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/WeakLinks.html
That comes from one of the small minority of the hang gliding culture which really understands weak links.
You should be breaking them at just about the same frequency that you're deploying your parachute. Which is - right - never. The same frequency that Karen and I do.
I'll take a little issue with Kevin here and state that they should never break until you NEED them to - and you should've released well before you get to that point. Neither strong conditions nor turbulence off the trees should be doing it. Don't allow an understrength weak link to be making your decisions for you.
If you don't trust us... At the very least take a magnifying glass to your weak link after each flight and retire it as soon as you detect broken fibers protruding from the string. Relaunches, as you note, are enormously expensive to everyone concerned - very much including the people waiting in line and watching the soaring window evaporate.
With respect to:
http://www.liteflite.com.au/ProductsBri ... lease.aspx
That's a step in the right direction but any release based on a curved pin is junk. Go to:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/
temp set, to see why.
Several years ago I swapped out my spinnaker shackle for a straight pin barrel release and have had excellent results. If you want something very clean and efficient I can do an installation on your glider. Or I'd be happy to walk you through it if you wanna do it yourself.
If you're not opposed to extra cable in the wind...
Bug the HELL out of toto's_ride. Tim developed an EXCELLENT slap-on release. There should be one in the shop at Ridgely you can take a look at - probably even take for a test drive. He's had a tight year but I've been desperate to get my hands on one so's I can get some photos up.
Tim,
If you're listening, you might want to get a restraining order. I'm considering stalking.
But really, can we get together soon and do a tradeoff? I've been trying to do this for over a year now. I'm quite happy to walk from a Metro station.
Kevin,
Three years and a month ago you wrote:
>
One pilot in the Texas Open had three premature releases in a row with glider damage on all three and different degrees of pilot injury. I myself have had a low level release that caused minor injury.
<
Can I get some more details on those? In particular, were those weak link breaks, release malfunctions, or both. If malfunctions - what was going wrong?
Thanks
P.S.
Those friends of your dad's who recovered my parrot were Chip and Mary Ann Hines.
Last month I tracked down their house when I needed a sitter but from a next door neighbor got their last name and the information that they had moved to Florida.
Re: Weak link question
Kirk, tow the S2 off the shoulders 
Its fun.
Tad, the pilot with three in a row was not using proper technique. Popping (HARD) out of the cart, then not pulling in enough. He tested fate and finally pounded hard enough to make his glider not flyable. It was extreme, an image I won't forget for a long time.
I am not sure what my release was or the "injury." Apparently that memory was not burned so vividly. I might have been flying barefoot. My harness back then was too small for my feet and I did that sometimes. If you send me the link maybe the context will fill in the memory blanks. Then again, I know one time I had a trike with a release failure at his end. Might have been that. Jeff Hunt comes up from Mexico with Curt's old trike. He is a good guy and since I love towing fast, I never shy from the trike. Its more work, and the climbs are slower, but who cares. They had recently repaired the mechanism after it was damaged and apparently it still needed some adjustments to not release during extreme movements of the control bar on the trike. I'm not sure if that is the same event, send me the rest of the story and I will confirm.
Kev
Its fun.Tad, the pilot with three in a row was not using proper technique. Popping (HARD) out of the cart, then not pulling in enough. He tested fate and finally pounded hard enough to make his glider not flyable. It was extreme, an image I won't forget for a long time.
I am not sure what my release was or the "injury." Apparently that memory was not burned so vividly. I might have been flying barefoot. My harness back then was too small for my feet and I did that sometimes. If you send me the link maybe the context will fill in the memory blanks. Then again, I know one time I had a trike with a release failure at his end. Might have been that. Jeff Hunt comes up from Mexico with Curt's old trike. He is a good guy and since I love towing fast, I never shy from the trike. Its more work, and the climbs are slower, but who cares. They had recently repaired the mechanism after it was damaged and apparently it still needed some adjustments to not release during extreme movements of the control bar on the trike. I'm not sure if that is the same event, send me the rest of the story and I will confirm.
Kev
Re: Weak link question
Tad,
YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK!
Goodbye.
YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK!
Goodbye.
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Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
Kirk,
Yeah, like Kevin says, if you've got a glider you can tow one point - and you do - that solves a lot of problems - including money.
In that configuration you're gonna get about 1.22 Gs from a (new) single loop, 1.74 with a double. I think the single will be fine.
Kevin,
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1079
- second page.
Thanks very much for the details. Those should prove very useful in a discussion I'm having on skysailingtowing.
Matthew,
Where the hell did that come from?
Yeah, like Kevin says, if you've got a glider you can tow one point - and you do - that solves a lot of problems - including money.
In that configuration you're gonna get about 1.22 Gs from a (new) single loop, 1.74 with a double. I think the single will be fine.
Kevin,
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1079
- second page.
Thanks very much for the details. Those should prove very useful in a discussion I'm having on skysailingtowing.
Matthew,
Where the hell did that come from?
Re: Weak link question
Thanks for all the suggestions everybody. I think I'll start first with better tow technique, but if that doesn't do it I'll start looking into the other options you guys mentioned. I certainly don't want to change too much too quickly considering I'm on a new glider 
Re: Weak link question
You've learned well young SkywakerI certainly don't want to change too much too quickly considering I'm on a new glider
Eventually... when you're really comfortable towing.... you can start protowing (shoulder only).
But, yeah, keep with the "not too much too fast" attitude. It'll serve you well.
Jim
Re: Weak link question
Tad,
Thanks for the link. Rereading it didn't shed any new light on the memory. I think it was hardware failure on the trike. Whatever injury I got must have been minor, like a a pulled muscle or stubbed toe. It wasn't significant because it didn't seem to alter my flying at all. Later that week I blew it big time doing loops and threw the dirty laundry.
Kev
Thanks for the link. Rereading it didn't shed any new light on the memory. I think it was hardware failure on the trike. Whatever injury I got must have been minor, like a a pulled muscle or stubbed toe. It wasn't significant because it didn't seem to alter my flying at all. Later that week I blew it big time doing loops and threw the dirty laundry.
Kev
Re: Weak link question
This has been (dare I say it???) a fairly civilized and calm discussion, with mention
of BOTH weak links and releases. Imagine that!
In the interests of continuing that trend, please people, no one-liner 'zinger posts'.
The intent might be for sarcastic humor... But they don't contribute anything, so
please keep 'em to yourself. Or take it to the General Discussion forum.
Thanks for your consideration!
**reluctant-moderator hat off**
MarkC
of BOTH weak links and releases. Imagine that!
In the interests of continuing that trend, please people, no one-liner 'zinger posts'.
The intent might be for sarcastic humor... But they don't contribute anything, so
please keep 'em to yourself. Or take it to the General Discussion forum.
Thanks for your consideration!
**reluctant-moderator hat off**
MarkC
-
toto's_ride
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:04 pm
- Location: Rockville, MD
Re: Weak link question
Tad,
thanks for the love. Just about ready to put a couple of these gizmos in a box, dim the lights and see if we can't get a few more of them running around by springtime. Hope to be at Ridgeley on Saturday (weather willing), chance I'll see you there?
-Tim
thanks for the love. Just about ready to put a couple of these gizmos in a box, dim the lights and see if we can't get a few more of them running around by springtime. Hope to be at Ridgeley on Saturday (weather willing), chance I'll see you there?
-Tim
Visualize silence
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
Mark,
Nah, I get more unprovoked personal attack out of that. Kinda strange, considering the source.
Kevin,
Thanks much for the research and educated guess. Good enough.
Kirk,
Yeah, whatever you do on tow that moderates the tow tension is great - that's how you should be flying anyway.
But you shouldn't have to be doing it to mollycoddle your weak link. If it can be degraded by as little as those sorts of tension irregularities it's dangerously understrength.
Let's take a look at Kevin's Texas Open guy - we'll call him Tog and make him 280 pounds.
Agreed - his launch technique is shoddy. Kinda surprising 'cause this isn't something that takes a whole lot of brains and/or skill. Maybe he did too much truck towing.
I'd be amazed if he was pulling more than 0.6 Gs - 168 pounds, 43 over normal - when he was popping those links.
Nobody who has a clue will recommend anything under 0.8. If you did that in a sailplane you'd be operating illegally. And I think that in a hang glider you're asking for trouble until you're very comfortably over 1.0.
Let's rewind the tape.
This time we're gonna remove any and all weak links from the vicinities of both ends of the tow line. Not a great idea - granted - but, then again, neither is leaving your parachute in the closet. See above.
Tog's launch still sucks but he's only gotta do one of them and he gets up and away no problem.
That evening you show him the video tape and chew him out. He's not all scraped and bruised and he's still got a glider to fly so tomorrow he gets a chance to improve.
The one you popped at 1500 feet last weekend went at about 0.54 Gs. That's not even close to being safe. Triple that would have been a bit over ideal.
Some things you certainly don't want to change too much too quickly. You probably don't want to abruptly transition from a Falcon at Taylor STFI at 8 to a bladewing at Woodstock 15 gusting to 30 out of the west (mostly).
Other things you DO want to change immediately because they have no bearing on the way you control the glider and make you safer. Examples of advisable abrupt alterations: Bare hands to gloves, T-shirt to jacket, shorts to slacks, placebo wheels to big pneumatic jobs, open to full face helmet, downtube to basetube actuated release...
0.6 to 1.2-1.5 G weak link. Getting spat off tow at the point that you start to hit turbulence due to wind coming over the trees is not making you safer.
Tim!,
You're still breathing!
I took the racks off the car for the season on Sunday but may reboot if the weather looks promising.
If not, and you're happy with sled stuff - how 'bout a rendezvous and car pool from Annapolis?
My E-ZPass and I'm your slave for the day - battens and everything.
Somebody on the Oz Report Forum just made the mistake of broaching the subject and I'm girding to go majorly postal. I REALLY wanna get those photos up so's the unwashed masses can finally get a clue as to how to do things right.
Is yahoo still the best way to talk?
Nah, I get more unprovoked personal attack out of that. Kinda strange, considering the source.
Kevin,
Thanks much for the research and educated guess. Good enough.
Kirk,
Yeah, whatever you do on tow that moderates the tow tension is great - that's how you should be flying anyway.
But you shouldn't have to be doing it to mollycoddle your weak link. If it can be degraded by as little as those sorts of tension irregularities it's dangerously understrength.
Let's take a look at Kevin's Texas Open guy - we'll call him Tog and make him 280 pounds.
Agreed - his launch technique is shoddy. Kinda surprising 'cause this isn't something that takes a whole lot of brains and/or skill. Maybe he did too much truck towing.
I'd be amazed if he was pulling more than 0.6 Gs - 168 pounds, 43 over normal - when he was popping those links.
Nobody who has a clue will recommend anything under 0.8. If you did that in a sailplane you'd be operating illegally. And I think that in a hang glider you're asking for trouble until you're very comfortably over 1.0.
Let's rewind the tape.
This time we're gonna remove any and all weak links from the vicinities of both ends of the tow line. Not a great idea - granted - but, then again, neither is leaving your parachute in the closet. See above.
Tog's launch still sucks but he's only gotta do one of them and he gets up and away no problem.
That evening you show him the video tape and chew him out. He's not all scraped and bruised and he's still got a glider to fly so tomorrow he gets a chance to improve.
The one you popped at 1500 feet last weekend went at about 0.54 Gs. That's not even close to being safe. Triple that would have been a bit over ideal.
Some things you certainly don't want to change too much too quickly. You probably don't want to abruptly transition from a Falcon at Taylor STFI at 8 to a bladewing at Woodstock 15 gusting to 30 out of the west (mostly).
Other things you DO want to change immediately because they have no bearing on the way you control the glider and make you safer. Examples of advisable abrupt alterations: Bare hands to gloves, T-shirt to jacket, shorts to slacks, placebo wheels to big pneumatic jobs, open to full face helmet, downtube to basetube actuated release...
0.6 to 1.2-1.5 G weak link. Getting spat off tow at the point that you start to hit turbulence due to wind coming over the trees is not making you safer.
Tim!,
You're still breathing!
I took the racks off the car for the season on Sunday but may reboot if the weather looks promising.
If not, and you're happy with sled stuff - how 'bout a rendezvous and car pool from Annapolis?
My E-ZPass and I'm your slave for the day - battens and everything.
Somebody on the Oz Report Forum just made the mistake of broaching the subject and I'm girding to go majorly postal. I REALLY wanna get those photos up so's the unwashed masses can finally get a clue as to how to do things right.
Is yahoo still the best way to talk?
Re: Weak link question
Tad,
I'm sorry if it weakens your argument but in Tog's case it is quite possibly good that his weak link kept breaking. Maybe I am not doing enough to trash dear ole "Tog" in an open forum. He was an idiot, unqualified and unfamiliar. The type that causes meet directors to make the big threats of meet expulsion for pilots who are not honest about their tow skills/experience. The problem seems to be worse when pilots travel great distances from unfamiliar HG circles. In those cases there is less self regulation in the community. In "Tog's" case he went a long way to perpetuate the stereotype. He did the bare minumum to obtain his tow credentials. Like when one flight park told him he couldn't tow a topless midday or in a meet without showing up early for (alot) more practice, he just found another FP that would tow him. Every once in awhile a talented mountain pilot shows up at meets and expects the red carpet to roll out for them because they are with a bunch of their buddies who have more tow experience. Its always stressfull for the members of the tow operation.
In "Tog's" case the weaklink was giving up when he was low without many options. That sucks, but how about the tow pilot at the other end of the rope that might be getting his airframe shoved into the tarmac? A weaker weak link can be bad but if you catch a ride to an Open Meet on the short bus a stronger one can be muich worse. For a pilot who counts on a WL to make decisions for them (ie Tog who can't pick the right time to pull in) weaker is better. Keeping a bonehead like that on line is only giving him an opportunity to strain a weaklink on roll.
It could be argued that a "good pilot" (I think I have met maybe a couple dozen max) is better off with a stronger WL to help them manage the dynamics of towing in bigger air. For those guys a premature release is not good because it happened when the air was highly dynamic, that doesn't always mean the glider is out of control (like most WL breaks). Sometimes you keep the glider in the right place but the line just goes too slack (ie towing behind a trike). These "good guys" are the ones you never see break a weaklink in normal conditions. Probably because in the rare situation where they get out of wack, they pull the release BEFORE a lockout because they know many moments before that the glider just isn't going to come back from that angle. Not many guys fall into that category.
I am beging too argumentative. When it comes to setting the bar for towing skill I say more then one weaklink break per year should require some soul searching. Either glider choice, training level, or choice of conditions. Those things just should not be breaking!
Tad, you mission used to be hair trigger releases. I'm not current on my forum freetime education but it sounds like the mission now is to strengthen weak links? I don't post much, but my mission this week and most weeks, is raising pilot standards and skill. Most all of my opinions have that mission as the agenda. Hair trigger releases are bad for good pilots who count on the line, and strong weak links are bad for any pilot that cannot manage tow forces themselves in their "conditions envelope." One weak link per 100 tows seems like an appropriate goal.
Kev
I'm sorry if it weakens your argument but in Tog's case it is quite possibly good that his weak link kept breaking. Maybe I am not doing enough to trash dear ole "Tog" in an open forum. He was an idiot, unqualified and unfamiliar. The type that causes meet directors to make the big threats of meet expulsion for pilots who are not honest about their tow skills/experience. The problem seems to be worse when pilots travel great distances from unfamiliar HG circles. In those cases there is less self regulation in the community. In "Tog's" case he went a long way to perpetuate the stereotype. He did the bare minumum to obtain his tow credentials. Like when one flight park told him he couldn't tow a topless midday or in a meet without showing up early for (alot) more practice, he just found another FP that would tow him. Every once in awhile a talented mountain pilot shows up at meets and expects the red carpet to roll out for them because they are with a bunch of their buddies who have more tow experience. Its always stressfull for the members of the tow operation.
In "Tog's" case the weaklink was giving up when he was low without many options. That sucks, but how about the tow pilot at the other end of the rope that might be getting his airframe shoved into the tarmac? A weaker weak link can be bad but if you catch a ride to an Open Meet on the short bus a stronger one can be muich worse. For a pilot who counts on a WL to make decisions for them (ie Tog who can't pick the right time to pull in) weaker is better. Keeping a bonehead like that on line is only giving him an opportunity to strain a weaklink on roll.
It could be argued that a "good pilot" (I think I have met maybe a couple dozen max) is better off with a stronger WL to help them manage the dynamics of towing in bigger air. For those guys a premature release is not good because it happened when the air was highly dynamic, that doesn't always mean the glider is out of control (like most WL breaks). Sometimes you keep the glider in the right place but the line just goes too slack (ie towing behind a trike). These "good guys" are the ones you never see break a weaklink in normal conditions. Probably because in the rare situation where they get out of wack, they pull the release BEFORE a lockout because they know many moments before that the glider just isn't going to come back from that angle. Not many guys fall into that category.
I am beging too argumentative. When it comes to setting the bar for towing skill I say more then one weaklink break per year should require some soul searching. Either glider choice, training level, or choice of conditions. Those things just should not be breaking!
Tad, you mission used to be hair trigger releases. I'm not current on my forum freetime education but it sounds like the mission now is to strengthen weak links? I don't post much, but my mission this week and most weeks, is raising pilot standards and skill. Most all of my opinions have that mission as the agenda. Hair trigger releases are bad for good pilots who count on the line, and strong weak links are bad for any pilot that cannot manage tow forces themselves in their "conditions envelope." One weak link per 100 tows seems like an appropriate goal.
Kev
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Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
No, Kevin, I love it when people attempt to weaken my argument. If they're wrong - they can learn something. If I'm wrong - I do.
First off - small bone to pick...
You first represented the Tog Series as evidence of why it was rather important to remain on tow until comfortably above the crap zone. And for these past three years I've thought quite a bit about this report in that context and under the delusion that he was just an innocent victim of understrength links.
You've done a bit of a flip with your first sentence on this last post.
(Permission to treat witness as hostile, Your Honor?)
No big deal. Both the imagined and actual circumstances are worth considering and addressing and there's nothing either way that alters my thinking or position.
OK, I seem to overestimated Tog's skills and, apparently, learning potential. Probably also underestimated the jerkiness of his launch.
In light of this expanded information my take on Tog is not to dumb down his weak link - but rather to dumb down his card. There's no freakin' way he should've gotten by USHPA SOP 12-02.10:C:4. No tikky, no towy. End of that problem.
I've recently been scrapping with Donnell Hewett on the skysailingtowing forum 'cause in his Skyting Criteria he asserts that the weak link strength must be scaled to pilot skill. My position is that an understrength weak link is as dangerous to a Hang Two as it is to a Five.
The glider is low, rolled hard, and off to the side at the end/beginning of an oscillation cycle. The link pops. Whatcha gonna do?
Several flights ago on an unremarkable day, ten feet off the ground and well down the runway to the east I had my wires go slack (briefly, I'm happy to report).
Shit happens. I'm pretty happy to have an excellent release system and a 1.4 G weak link when it does so's I'm the one making the decisions. (Damn. That sounds disturbingly W-ish.) I'm quite sure that I totally suck by comparison to your Chosen Two Dozen. I'm also just about positive I will never break a weak link and I've got a good idea I'm safer getting into the air and under better control than they are. My equipment is better.
With respect to the tug...
ANY glider with ANY weak link capable of sustaining tow is capable of nosing any Dragonfly into the dirt. Karen can do it maxing out her weak link for 243 pounds of tow line tension and a Ridgely tandem can do it with its 348. That's why people should have fingers on triggers - those are the only things that can be relied on to keep situations from going to hell.
>
that doesn't always mean the glider is out of control (like most WL breaks).
<
I disagree (at my peril 'cause you've been around this stuff a helluva lot more than I have - but that has never been the case on the Eastern Shore). The stuff that Kirk is describing is typical. I've been hearing the same from Valerie and Raj - a couple of the other new kids at Ridgely. They tend to be puzzled at first and remark that there was nothing going on with tension or control at the time. Then they "learn" that, well, that's just the way it is and is supposed to and has to be.
And I get all - NO! IF IT'S BREAKING FOR NO REASON IT'S TOO GODDAM WEAK! BEEF IT UP! But their souls are lost already... The myth gains more converts and the cycle continues.
Weak links should only be breaking when you need them to. Not, as above, for no reason - nor while you're working on a correctable problem.
>
...I say more then one weaklink break per year should require some soul searching.
<
I'm saying that virtually NO ONE should EVER break a weak link in the course of a flying career. I know of only one partially necessary weak link break in the history of aerotowing and I'm not hearing people flooding the wires with first, second, or third hand accounts of other candidates.
>
Either glider choice, training level, or choice of conditions.
<
You're leaving out THE biggie. Nobody should expect to complete a tow with the good ol' one size fits all 0.5 G weak link.
>
...your mission used to be hair trigger releases.
<
No. I don't think I ever pushed that publicly. I went through a very brief experimental period tweaking my release system to hair trigger. After about two flights I concluded that that was a bad idea 'cause the last one ended at about a hundred feet when I made a minor adjustment to my grip.
I did - and do - vehemently insist that your AT release system should allow you to get off tow without having to take a hand off the steering wheel and surrender control of the glider. Systems which do that have been flying for many years now just fine, thank you.
My current main thrust is to get this culture in line with what the FAA knows and codifies. And that is that anything under a solid 0.8 G weak link is dangerous and that you don't use a weak link to make your decisions and do your job for you.
>
...strong weak links are bad for any pilot that cannot manage tow forces themselves in their "conditions envelope."
<
and any pilot who thinks that a weak link can compensate for his deficiencies is rolling dice - at best. People need to stay in their conditions envelopes - especially near the ground where the tow is most dangerous and the weak link is least likely to do any good.
>
...my mission this week and most weeks, is raising pilot standards and skill.
<
Yeah, I think this is totally consistent with what I'm trying to do. That's how you keep from slamming in at the end of a low level lockout. A much better approach than freezing on the basetube and praying that your weak link will fail in time.
My main mission though is to get the equipment up to specs that have been on the books since the beginning of time so those pilots of high standards and skill levels have something with which to work. The best pilot in the world can't pull out of a full luff dive if the reflex bridle and washout tips have been disengaged. Nor can he maintain control of a glider with one hand - especially on tow.
Thanks much for the effort that went into your post. I'll appreciate any feedback for which you have time.
First off - small bone to pick...
You first represented the Tog Series as evidence of why it was rather important to remain on tow until comfortably above the crap zone. And for these past three years I've thought quite a bit about this report in that context and under the delusion that he was just an innocent victim of understrength links.
You've done a bit of a flip with your first sentence on this last post.
(Permission to treat witness as hostile, Your Honor?)
No big deal. Both the imagined and actual circumstances are worth considering and addressing and there's nothing either way that alters my thinking or position.
OK, I seem to overestimated Tog's skills and, apparently, learning potential. Probably also underestimated the jerkiness of his launch.
In light of this expanded information my take on Tog is not to dumb down his weak link - but rather to dumb down his card. There's no freakin' way he should've gotten by USHPA SOP 12-02.10:C:4. No tikky, no towy. End of that problem.
I've recently been scrapping with Donnell Hewett on the skysailingtowing forum 'cause in his Skyting Criteria he asserts that the weak link strength must be scaled to pilot skill. My position is that an understrength weak link is as dangerous to a Hang Two as it is to a Five.
The glider is low, rolled hard, and off to the side at the end/beginning of an oscillation cycle. The link pops. Whatcha gonna do?
Several flights ago on an unremarkable day, ten feet off the ground and well down the runway to the east I had my wires go slack (briefly, I'm happy to report).
Shit happens. I'm pretty happy to have an excellent release system and a 1.4 G weak link when it does so's I'm the one making the decisions. (Damn. That sounds disturbingly W-ish.) I'm quite sure that I totally suck by comparison to your Chosen Two Dozen. I'm also just about positive I will never break a weak link and I've got a good idea I'm safer getting into the air and under better control than they are. My equipment is better.
With respect to the tug...
ANY glider with ANY weak link capable of sustaining tow is capable of nosing any Dragonfly into the dirt. Karen can do it maxing out her weak link for 243 pounds of tow line tension and a Ridgely tandem can do it with its 348. That's why people should have fingers on triggers - those are the only things that can be relied on to keep situations from going to hell.
>
that doesn't always mean the glider is out of control (like most WL breaks).
<
I disagree (at my peril 'cause you've been around this stuff a helluva lot more than I have - but that has never been the case on the Eastern Shore). The stuff that Kirk is describing is typical. I've been hearing the same from Valerie and Raj - a couple of the other new kids at Ridgely. They tend to be puzzled at first and remark that there was nothing going on with tension or control at the time. Then they "learn" that, well, that's just the way it is and is supposed to and has to be.
And I get all - NO! IF IT'S BREAKING FOR NO REASON IT'S TOO GODDAM WEAK! BEEF IT UP! But their souls are lost already... The myth gains more converts and the cycle continues.
Weak links should only be breaking when you need them to. Not, as above, for no reason - nor while you're working on a correctable problem.
>
...I say more then one weaklink break per year should require some soul searching.
<
I'm saying that virtually NO ONE should EVER break a weak link in the course of a flying career. I know of only one partially necessary weak link break in the history of aerotowing and I'm not hearing people flooding the wires with first, second, or third hand accounts of other candidates.
>
Either glider choice, training level, or choice of conditions.
<
You're leaving out THE biggie. Nobody should expect to complete a tow with the good ol' one size fits all 0.5 G weak link.
>
...your mission used to be hair trigger releases.
<
No. I don't think I ever pushed that publicly. I went through a very brief experimental period tweaking my release system to hair trigger. After about two flights I concluded that that was a bad idea 'cause the last one ended at about a hundred feet when I made a minor adjustment to my grip.
I did - and do - vehemently insist that your AT release system should allow you to get off tow without having to take a hand off the steering wheel and surrender control of the glider. Systems which do that have been flying for many years now just fine, thank you.
My current main thrust is to get this culture in line with what the FAA knows and codifies. And that is that anything under a solid 0.8 G weak link is dangerous and that you don't use a weak link to make your decisions and do your job for you.
>
...strong weak links are bad for any pilot that cannot manage tow forces themselves in their "conditions envelope."
<
and any pilot who thinks that a weak link can compensate for his deficiencies is rolling dice - at best. People need to stay in their conditions envelopes - especially near the ground where the tow is most dangerous and the weak link is least likely to do any good.
>
...my mission this week and most weeks, is raising pilot standards and skill.
<
Yeah, I think this is totally consistent with what I'm trying to do. That's how you keep from slamming in at the end of a low level lockout. A much better approach than freezing on the basetube and praying that your weak link will fail in time.
My main mission though is to get the equipment up to specs that have been on the books since the beginning of time so those pilots of high standards and skill levels have something with which to work. The best pilot in the world can't pull out of a full luff dive if the reflex bridle and washout tips have been disengaged. Nor can he maintain control of a glider with one hand - especially on tow.
Thanks much for the effort that went into your post. I'll appreciate any feedback for which you have time.
Re: Weak link question
I'm curious Tad. Describe a situation for which you feel the weak link is useful. Does the glider have to get caught on a tree, or is there some in-air situation?
Brian Vant-Hull
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Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
Hi Brian,
I like this from Steve Kroop...
>
... Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster. The pilot activating his or her releases is their way to save themselves. A perfect analogy is the circuit breaker in your home, it is there to protect the wire not what you plug into the wall socket. If anyone does not believe me they can plug their car retrieve 2-way radio into the wall socket and watch it go up in flames with the circuit breaker comfortably remaining in the on position (I hope no one really tries this ;-).
<
If a lockout goes on for a long time with no one taking any action the weak link kicks in. I no longer fly with the expectation that the weak link will be part of my safety equation - and I'm a lot happier and more confident and comfortable in that mode.
So to answer your question...
I just don't think a weak link is useful - AT ALL.
Same way I don't feel a technique for climbing into your control frame after you've failed to connect to the glider is useful. Just do the damned hook-in check so you're sure you won't need that particular ability.
I like this from Steve Kroop...
>
... Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster. The pilot activating his or her releases is their way to save themselves. A perfect analogy is the circuit breaker in your home, it is there to protect the wire not what you plug into the wall socket. If anyone does not believe me they can plug their car retrieve 2-way radio into the wall socket and watch it go up in flames with the circuit breaker comfortably remaining in the on position (I hope no one really tries this ;-).
<
If a lockout goes on for a long time with no one taking any action the weak link kicks in. I no longer fly with the expectation that the weak link will be part of my safety equation - and I'm a lot happier and more confident and comfortable in that mode.
So to answer your question...
I just don't think a weak link is useful - AT ALL.
Same way I don't feel a technique for climbing into your control frame after you've failed to connect to the glider is useful. Just do the damned hook-in check so you're sure you won't need that particular ability.
Re: Weak link question
Well, I can think of at least two people who would be alive today if they had used an actual weak link. If you ever decide to stop using weak links altogether, let me know so I can buy a life insurance policy in your name.
Matthew
Matthew
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Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
Very sorry to hear the report of your brief flight yesterday and I'm hoping that they're will be no long term consequences.
But, back to the issue...
No.
Their problem was too little tension - not too much.
The root cause of that accident was that they violated Point 09 of 12 of the Skyting Criteria, written about a decade and a half prior.
>
Group 3 - Practical Implementation
09: Adequate Power
The system must contain a source of power adequate to maintain a safe mode of flight while under tow.
<
The Dragonfly is the reason we will never again see that sort of accident. The problem wasn't too big a weak link but, rather, too small an engine. The only difference a dumbed down weak link could have possibly made would have been to have cut their lives a few seconds shorter.
Any other candidates?
No, I didn't think so.
But, back to the issue...
No.
Their problem was too little tension - not too much.
The root cause of that accident was that they violated Point 09 of 12 of the Skyting Criteria, written about a decade and a half prior.
>
Group 3 - Practical Implementation
09: Adequate Power
The system must contain a source of power adequate to maintain a safe mode of flight while under tow.
<
The Dragonfly is the reason we will never again see that sort of accident. The problem wasn't too big a weak link but, rather, too small an engine. The only difference a dumbed down weak link could have possibly made would have been to have cut their lives a few seconds shorter.
Any other candidates?
No, I didn't think so.
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
(Make that "there".)
Just out of curiosity, Matthew...
Highland Aerosports has launched, near the close of its tenth season, something better than 40,000 tows.
The number of instances in which a weak link break was required for the safety of the flight is - to date - ZERO.
And, as we all know, just about all of the several thousand pops we have had have been totally needless pains in the ass.
Pretty much the only part of the tow which can hurt or kill you is the close to the ground stuff and that's the zone in which a single loop of Greenspot is more likely to precipitate your being mangled than it is to prevent same.
Analogy... Weak links and parachutes are about equal in effectiveness at fifty feet and you don't want either one trying to do its job there.
So, to partially plagiarize Brian's question -
How 'bout YOU describe a situation for which you feel you could come out ahead on the aforementioned insurance policy.
I would suggest you get a good grip on Steve Kroop's statement:
>
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot.
<
before you start making investment decisions 'cause with your current understanding of the issue you'd be a lot better off buying lottery tickets. One in seventy-five million is pretty good odds when the alternative is zero in forty thousand (and counting).
I don't expect to hear from Matthew 'cause - in accordance with the time honored glider forum tradition - when he paints himself in a corner he tends to just drop out of the conversation. But I'd be happy to hear from ANYBODY who thinks he's got a shot.
Just out of curiosity, Matthew...
Highland Aerosports has launched, near the close of its tenth season, something better than 40,000 tows.
The number of instances in which a weak link break was required for the safety of the flight is - to date - ZERO.
And, as we all know, just about all of the several thousand pops we have had have been totally needless pains in the ass.
Pretty much the only part of the tow which can hurt or kill you is the close to the ground stuff and that's the zone in which a single loop of Greenspot is more likely to precipitate your being mangled than it is to prevent same.
Analogy... Weak links and parachutes are about equal in effectiveness at fifty feet and you don't want either one trying to do its job there.
So, to partially plagiarize Brian's question -
How 'bout YOU describe a situation for which you feel you could come out ahead on the aforementioned insurance policy.
I would suggest you get a good grip on Steve Kroop's statement:
>
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot.
<
before you start making investment decisions 'cause with your current understanding of the issue you'd be a lot better off buying lottery tickets. One in seventy-five million is pretty good odds when the alternative is zero in forty thousand (and counting).
I don't expect to hear from Matthew 'cause - in accordance with the time honored glider forum tradition - when he paints himself in a corner he tends to just drop out of the conversation. But I'd be happy to hear from ANYBODY who thinks he's got a shot.