WIND TURBINES at Woodstock Massanutten GW forest.

[LE Herrick]

This is great to hear from so many on this question.

As a former federal bureaucrat, I have attended many public meetings from the other side. What is important is to understand why the forest service is holding a public meeting. They hold a public meting because they are required by law to do so to gain public input as to the extent that the proposal would interfere with established uses of the National Forest.

Having a lot of people show up is important, but it is more important to present a competent and unified position. I recommend we submit a written document "for the record". We may also have to pre register to provide testimony so that the scheduler has an idea and control over the process.

There will probably be a transcriber there. If any of you have ever spoken ad hoc to a transcriber and then seen the results, it is not usually a very pretty representation of professionalism and competency. They put in all the "Uhmms" and "like" and "You knows"

I held public meetings of interest to the oil and gas industry and those guys really have their acts together. They would come all dressed up in spiffy clothes and then read a prepared statement into the record. The statements always started out with a fairly standard

Who they are
Who they represent
the issue they are addressing
their opinion
thank you to the agency for the oppotunity to provide information.

Very often an exact same letter in entered into the docket (record) multiple times. One from each of the several constituencies. For example - We could craft a letter and have one signed by the President of the Mountaineer HG; one signed by the President of CHGPA; MHGPA, SWVHGP, USHPA, (Others??) This will leverage our comments. The person who summarizes the comments will write "____ organizations stated that______". The federal people are used to seeing this.

The effective commenters to dockets stay on topic. The Forest service wants to know how the proposal will impact current and historical use. The requirement is directed to the "human environmental impacts" Birds and bats will be addressed seperately. We need to keep the focus on who we are and what he impact will be on us.

We need to be able to tell them an estimate of.

How long have we been flying Woodstock?
The importance of Woodstock to the flying community.
How many flights?
How many spectators?
How unique and irreplaceable is Woodstock - (Wind shadow of Allegheny front)

and

That the proposal in absolutely incompatible with this current and historical use.

We don't have much time.


LE

[markc]

FYI, I passed on the word about the windfarm plans to
three communities: americantrails.org , runwashington.com , and vhtrc.org .

Enclosing my letter below. Take a minute to google
for other likely communities (hunters, trail runners, birders,
mtn bikers, etc), find a contact person, and send them
an email. A couple minutes of work will at least help
spread the word about what's going on.

MarkC

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Hi,

I thought you might like to know that there are meetings
being held about the construction of a windfarm
in the George Washington National Forest, which includes
the very scenic ridge that extends from Strasburg VA to
Edinburg VA, and the next ridge eastward (towards
Shenandoah National Park)

This came to our attention very recently, and is being
discussed in our forums:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3356

A map of the areas being considered can be found at:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/gwj/forestplan/ ... _Power.pdf

A public meeting has been scheduled for Monday July 14
in Woodstock VA:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/gwj/forestplan/ ... ings.shtml

We at the Capital Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association
would be significantly impacted by this plan. We
think that many other forest users, including trail runners,
hikers, hunters, birders, and sight-seers/tourists may
also be negatively effected.

To our knowledge, windfarms that are located in non-mountainous
areas (eg, open plains) make more economic sense than those in
forested mountainous areas. They certainly are easier to construct
and maintain, and have fewer environmental impacts.

I thought you might want to know about these developments. If
you feel this news might be of interest to your _______________
community, please pass along the word.

Regards,

Mark Cavanaugh
chgpa.org

[markc]

Add restonrunners.org and the Massanutten trail managers
at PATC to the list of those contacted.

Someone want to tackle hunting, birding, tourism, etc?

MarkC

[Matthew]

Thanks Mark-- I've contacted the Northern Virgina Birders, The VA Hunters, Shenandoah County Tourism and the OD 100 Endurnace Ride Organization-- they do their rides on the Massanutten Ridge.

Matthew

[markc]

I'm going to sketch out a CHGPA statement to be presented at the meeting.

Will try to get input from Tom M on it, since he also plans to attend on Monday.

If anyone else wants to be involved, please PM me.

MarkC

[markc]

Does anyone happen to know the timeframe (exact or approximate) when
Woodstock was opened up to hang gliding?

Also, would anyone care to guess how far away the nearest site is that
can provide similar features (long ridge, fantastic river valley view, Shen
mtns over the back) to what we have at Woodstock?

Thanks for any info!

MarkC

PS: Wow, the more I drink, the better this letter that I'm writing gets!!

*grin*

[Dan T]

Great job everybody, it's terrific to see everyone pull together like this. LE's comments are right on the mark. Numbers count at these meetings, more is better. The Forest Service will make a record of the number of people who show up and express their opinions and concerns. Small but vocal communities often win the day on these issues, small silent ones never do.

Go get em. As my Army friends would say, Hoorah!

Dan T

[deveil]

Does anyone happen to know the timeframe (exact or approximate) when
Woodstock was opened up to hang gliding?

greg mick, pres of the central virginia club at the time, pioneered the site somewhere in the mid 80's. did all the permits, permissions and tree clearing. there's also the original site down to the other side of the parking lot where the power lines cross over the mtn. the name of the guy who pioneered that site escapes me ffor the moment but even after the 'new' launch was opened he would fly the old site once a year so as to maintain it's status as, i think, the oldest active site after kitty hawk or something like that. he did work ffor a md. pbs station and did voice overs for nature type programs, always wore an indiana jones type of hat. hope that helps trigger someones memory.

garyD

[deveil]

"the name of the guy who pioneered that site escapes me "

hell, i think he was one of the guys who actually started the capitol or md. club. just look up the gallery of rogues who were past pres's. richard hays or christie will know.
garyD

[Danny Brotto]

Gary

Are you thinking of Vic Powell?

Danny Brotto

[deveil]

danny,

yes! damn wish i had a memory too. then i could remember all those distant good times which resulted in having a bad memory. but all i see when i look back is a smokey haze. oh yeah. . . i think that actually Is the clear picture.

garyD

[markc]

I do think that numbers would help at this meeting.

I'm' planning to head out at 4pm from Bethesda. Carlos has said
he can probably go, and if so, we'll carpool. Anyone else want to go?

MarkC

[deveil]

I do think that numbers would help at this meeting.
MarkC

alls i gots is a picture, specifying me as the pilot, locaton as woodstock va.(self evident), spectator Randy See (pilot, local at the time),the glider as ww harrier II, date 2/19/90.
you're welcome to a copy of it or loan of the original, but i hope someone is providing you with better documentation.
once again, just keeping the conversation going.
garyD

[deveil]

directory assistance has a Vic Powell in Upper Malboro, Md, but the number is unlisted. as he was such an advocate for that site and hang gliding in general (i recall he took part in some kind of hg ceremony down at kitty hawk with Ragollo - can that be right?) i can't imagine that he wouldn't be interested and helpful regarding this matter.
sorry for the impotence of the effort (incontinence is sometimes a problem as well, but don't tell anyone).

[markc]

Can anyone think of another Eastern HG/PG site that provides a flying experience which is
equivalent to what we have at Woodstock? That is, the length of the ridge (Strasburg
to Harrisonburg), plus the river valley below, and Shenandoah Park to the east?

I'm trying to convey the unique nature of Woodstock, and how far would would have to
travel in order to find something comparable.

Thanks for any info!

MarkC

[carweill]

I'm going just need to coordinate details with Mark

Carlos

[deveil]

I do think that numbers would help at this meeting.

I'm' planning to head out at 4pm from Bethesda. Carlos has said
he can probably go, and if so, we'll carpool. Anyone else want to go?

MarkC

mark,
if nonparticipating (no signs, heckling, smoke bombs etc.) warm bodies would indeed be useful i would carpool with yous guys. but what would be a rendezvous point? my direct route from falls church to the beltway is via rt. 50, which is south of 66W relative to bethesda. since you've been doing all the heavy lifting i'd be more than willing to cover chauffeur duty and expenses. if this wouldn't work out, then good luck to you and give em hell - in a staid, buttoned-down, bureaucratically polished fashion of course.
i realize that this is late notice, but an obligation than i had for this evening was just postponed.
garyD.
703 241 0225

[deveil]

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well, this must be about the 5th or 6th time i've tried to figure out how to "edit or delete" one of my own posts but i still can't figure it out. to my chagrin .

this was intended as a private message. maybe markC will pull it. no big deal i guess.

[markc]

Well, as is often the case with these sorts of things, there's good news and there's bad news....

The bad news is that the wind turbines are a-comin' .

The good news is that we've gotten initial approval from the Forest Service for two
new sports on windfarms located on Federal property: Rotor Surfing and Parapaulting.

For the hangies, 'rotor surfing' will have a new and much more literal meaning than
previously. It will also have an added thrill due to the russian-roulette nature of
the sport.

For the baggers, 'parapaulting' involves a careful cross-wind crab into the vicinity
of the rotors, and very careful timing. A successful 'pault will seize the wing, flinging
it and pilot high into the air. A cutaway, then a deploy of your reserve, then a top-landing,
and you're ready to do it all again!



Joke! Joke!! Joke!!! Gotta lighten up this thread at least a little bit...

Some real information to follow.

MarkC

[markc]

Ok, the real information....

There is an application in the works for a windfarm, to be located on the VA/WVA border
within the George Wash. National Forest. The forest service reps at the meeting could
not provide more information because it is proprietary. Once the application becomes
a reality, a wind-velocity study would ensue. I'm unclear about the timing of that study
vs. the other actions (environmental impact, determination of whether the farm would
be considered an 'acceptable use', etc) that would also ensue. But at the application
phase, I'm told that information about the project will then be publicly available.

There is supposedly only one application in the works. So flight operations on Massanutten
are probably 'safe' for the immediate future. But even so, I think it is reasonable to ask
whether the use of public forest land for a venture like a windfarm is outweighed by its
benefits. How do you calculate the total 'costs' to activities like camping, hiking, biking,
sight-seeing, tourism, soaring, hunting, etc? Is that cost outweighed by the benefits
of a windfarm? Is the construction of the farm being subsidized by tax credits, which are
essentially coming from taxpayers? Lots of questions there....

And remember that the 'generally suitable for wind generation' map included with the
proposed 2008 forest plan revision indicates that essentially EVERY ridgeline, including
Massanutten, is 'suitable' . Safe today, but perhaps not tomorrow?

If wind studies truly supported the profitability/benefits of a windfarm, and if there
is no 'double-dipping' via tax credits, and if the recreational/environmental/etc costs
were compensated for (like, directly out of the pocketbook of whatever corporation
is involved!).... I would have difficulty saying that such a farm should not be built.

Perhaps we won't face such a moral dilemma, if Massanutten's winds aren't considered
economically viable. But as some pointed out, all the other forest uses can be
actively managed. However, once the towers are up... They are there to stay. With the
associated road building. And the excavation for foundations. And the construction of a power
grid. And the threats to wildlife. At what point has too high a price been paid per
megawatt?

The format of the meeting: Each attendee was randomly placed into a group of about
15 people. Then we all aired our concerns (like, 2 minutes apiece!), and we were
supposed to indicate them directly on a large printed map of the forest. Supposedly, these
annotations are going to be captured in some way (mention was made of scanning the
maps). But I have concerns... It semed like more of a 'feel-good' exercise, to
make people think that they had "provided input". Without a true collation of all the
concerns (from misbehaving ATVs to statements that wind generation is not appropriate
in the GWNF), which is then made public... Did anything REALLY get done? I'm a bit
cynical about this, but will follow-up with a few contacts I made, who seem to have been
to these types of meetings in the past.

Also found out that there is a group that is pushing for certain areas in/near the GWNF
to be designated as Wilderness Areas. Hang gliding apparently is NOT allowed in WA's
(though I don't know if that means lauching, flying above, or both). I met the guy who's
involved in that effort, and it seems that none of the currently proposed WAs will impact us.
He seemed genuinely concerned about our interests, and willing to involve us in their
planning process. So I will definitely follow-up with him.

Present for the meeting were myself, Carlos, Janni, Tony D, Joe & Zelda, Dave P,
Gary D, and Craig. Did I forget anyone?

MarkC

[mcgowantk]

Thanks to Mark and the others that made the meeting. Since work kept me away, I hope to attend anther meeting. Perhaps I can benefit from your experience at the meeting. Was there an opportunity to submit written comments? Looking at the map, I also wondered whether other launches in the central or southern VA areas may be impacted.

Thanks again to all who attended.

Tom McGowan

[deveil]

ALERT: We are at serious risk of loosing Woodstock to Wind Turbines.
Joe

as i serve as nothing much more than a gadfly and a warm body (the dictionary definition really isn't all that flattering (!), but if the mud sticks. . .) i'm not really in a position to be extending thank yous or such, but. . .
those who remain and sound an alert should not be missed or unkudoed.
garyD

[deveil]

sorry joe, if i inadvertently implied that you were a lert or a kudo.
garyD

[CraginS]

There was a young reporter from the Shenandoah Valley Herald newspaper at the USFS meeting last night, Matthew McGovern. He interviewed (sometimes recording) a number of those present, including Mark Cav, Dave P, me, and Ken Landgraf, the senior Forest Service official who ran the meeting. He was also taking a lot of photos.
We don't know when the Herald might run his article. However, I found several items on their web site that relate. Interestingly, there seems to be more in the letters to teh editor section than in news articles.

http://www.dailynews-record.com/news_de ... 821&CHID=2
Feelings Mixed Over Proposed Wind Farms Posted 2008-03-26
By Hannah Northey

http://www.dailynews-record.com/opinion ... p?LID=6827
Letters To The Editor
GW Forest Plan Needs To Be Changed Posted 2008-05-21

[RedBaron]

As Mark said, these meetings are a feel-good exercise and don't give anyone a real clue of what's going on behind closed doors. Raising wind farms was with no word addressed during the presentation. The forest service sits on a small budget and while they can open and maintain trails they can do little else. The GW forest service seems to have no control in decisions made on state government level. Wind farm companies don't talk to rangers, they talk to senators and lawyers. Protest by local communities is always factored in and the fact that National forests have to be available for "multiple uses" makes raising a bunch of turbines in some areas while keeping others for communal activities a possibility. The forest service has no problem moving these areas around turbine locations, which would be placed based on what the investor deems good sites.
I see no conflict between the presence of turbines, wilderness, hunting, ATV's etc., there's enough space there. I doubt we will be allowed to fly in close proximity to turbines and would, at this point, like to make a suggestion. Let's take advantage of these meetings and talk to the forest service personnel about the possibility of developing a new NW site in case we lose ours and in case such a place will still exist. They seem fond of us and if we keep showing up in good numbers they may grant us this wish.