Tad,
If you are as concerned about safety as you say, then insulting people and creating a nusance on the CHGPA forum isn't the way to get your message across. Why don't you write an article for submission to the national magazine explaining your safety concerns? As best as I can decipher, you believe that--
Current release mechanisms (bicycle grip style) don't appear to have ever been tested for the loads used in towing and can jam up under heavy loads
Curved bailey pins don't work as well as straight pins
Pilots should use two secondary releases
There's some sort of difference between a back-up and a secondary
Weak links aren't one size fits all and should be different breaking strengths for different sizes of gliders and pilot weights
Include test data to support any conclusion you make.
I also strongly suggest that you apologize to everyone you have insulted.
Matthew
To Tad
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
-
Tad Eareckson
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:50 am
Matthew,
It might not be apparent from some of our previous on line exchanges, but I actually like and respect you quite a lot too and always will and greatly appreciate your many and ongoing contributions to the sport. I even appreciate your motives when you keep bugging me to rejoin CHGA. It won't work 'cause I don't fly the sites and I figure I've done WAY more than my share in giving back to the sport and the site I do fly - but you have my blessings to continue.
I just wish you wouldn't make the assumption that I'm wasting everyone's time and such in the course of making your appeals.
With respect to the technical stuff...
My concern about the Wallaby and Lookout releases is not that they can't handle the loads. It's that they can handle way too much load. We're using an 1100 kilogram mechanism to do what - for most people currently - is a 64 kilogram job. The gate on our universal Gold Standard spinnaker shackle snags weak link loops and somebody got killed because of one of those snags.
My concern about the brake lever is that you can replace it with a piece of string and do the job better. If you're gonna tow two point there's no reason not to have your finger on the trigger. Lauren tossed that option 'cause she was afraid to have that chunk of metal on the basetube and consequently had both control and release problems. It shouldn't be a chunk of metal.
Yeah - curved pin barrels are stupid dangerous junk.
I'm not too concerned about having two secondary releases as long as the configuration is infallible - which just about no one's cept mine is - but there's no good reason not to (and there's no good reason not to have something in your teeth at launch either).
The difference between a backup and secondary release is that a backup is used in the event a primary fails. There is zero reason to fly with a primary that fails and one can get killed by actuating a release out of sequence. The only reason you need a secondary at a shoulder or two is to handle a bridle wrap.
Yeah with respect to the weak links and...
Because of the sort of abomination that the paragraph to which I referred Brian yesterday represents, everybody is using weak links optimized for gliders of 174 pounds towing two point and 200 towing one - i.e., Karen is the heaviest glider that should be using those things and only if she's towing off her shoulders. Those weak links start getting dangerous for everyone up from there.
With respect to apologies...
It appears that I rammed my foot in my mouth and lodged it firmly about halfway down my throat with the comment about the glider size thing. Shoulda stayed out of aerodynamics about which I'm fuzzy and stuck to simple mechanics where I'm on solid ground. Yes - apologies for that were in order and have been made - inadequate though they may be.
I like Lauren and Paul quite a bit and have taken big hit on that one and I hope they'll allow me to repair at least some of that damage.
Yesterday I said:
>
And - so far - I don't have any indication that I've lost any friends I wanna keep.
<
Can't say that anymore - that's a first for me in my 28 years in the sport.
But - anyway - those are the only apologies I owe at present.
I'm not trying to threaten Lauren (or Dustin) and I've never meant this to be a personal attack of any kind. But I just find it astonishing that we've gotten to the point that a lightly loaded release can lock up on tow and nobody even sees it as a problem - let alone one worth reporting.
There is no freakin' way we would accept similar failures in commercial and general aviation, the cars we drive, or the bicycles that six year olds get as birthday presents. Hang gliders? Hell, this is just they way things are and have to be.
--
Flying Lobster
2008/04/21 23:54:28
This forum needs a dickhead release.
--
Spark
2008/04/22 00:22:17
I agree, but if the release failed, it would be quite painful ... emasculating ... and debilitating :lol:
--
Seems Spark is offended by vulgarity only when I direct it towards someone who didn't think a glider design flaw which almost cost me being paralyzed from the neck down was worth a note to the manufacturer.
If it's directed towards someone who is trying to keep another pair of arms from being broken it's perfectly OK and good for a chuckle.
With respect to the magazine article...
A couple of us who used to do a lot of work on the CHGA newsletter - yours truly and Ralph, in that order - independently concluded that it was a massive waste of time and money. The Internet was gearing up during my tenure as Secretary and eventually my brain kicked in enough to realize how insane it was to pull text off the wire and edit it to make if fit on a few sheets of paper to be photocopied, collated, folded, stamped, and mailed at the expense of great effort and a good chunk of the budget.
The CHGA newsletter has been dead for three years.
I'd like to see a stake driven through the heart of the national magazine for the same reasons.
And digging through boxes and flipping through thousands of pages is an insane way to try to research anything.
USHPA should kill the magazine and buy the Oz Report.
I've thought about writing a magazine article but I'm not optimistic that words and pictures on paper would be any less readily dismissed than the ones on the screen have been.
I do have an article up on the web. It's about 140 pages long - freakin' PhD thesis on aerotowing that's only rarely been glanced at. That would require a little effort and it's a whole lot easier and more fun to do stuff like this:
--
Batman
2007/05/22 13:24:03
When you start showing empirical data with proven and qualitative results instead of clouding the issue with conjecture, misquotes, and speculation maybe I will be more inclined to listen, but right now it just seems you are grasping at straws and I have no clue what the point in all of this is.
--
How 'bout this Matthew,
How 'bout you spend fifteen minutes with me at Ridgely sometime and see if there's any validity to anything I'm saying and post your impressions - favorable or un-. 'Cause nobody 'cept occasionally Brian is gonna look at the numbers.
It might not be apparent from some of our previous on line exchanges, but I actually like and respect you quite a lot too and always will and greatly appreciate your many and ongoing contributions to the sport. I even appreciate your motives when you keep bugging me to rejoin CHGA. It won't work 'cause I don't fly the sites and I figure I've done WAY more than my share in giving back to the sport and the site I do fly - but you have my blessings to continue.
I just wish you wouldn't make the assumption that I'm wasting everyone's time and such in the course of making your appeals.
With respect to the technical stuff...
My concern about the Wallaby and Lookout releases is not that they can't handle the loads. It's that they can handle way too much load. We're using an 1100 kilogram mechanism to do what - for most people currently - is a 64 kilogram job. The gate on our universal Gold Standard spinnaker shackle snags weak link loops and somebody got killed because of one of those snags.
My concern about the brake lever is that you can replace it with a piece of string and do the job better. If you're gonna tow two point there's no reason not to have your finger on the trigger. Lauren tossed that option 'cause she was afraid to have that chunk of metal on the basetube and consequently had both control and release problems. It shouldn't be a chunk of metal.
Yeah - curved pin barrels are stupid dangerous junk.
I'm not too concerned about having two secondary releases as long as the configuration is infallible - which just about no one's cept mine is - but there's no good reason not to (and there's no good reason not to have something in your teeth at launch either).
The difference between a backup and secondary release is that a backup is used in the event a primary fails. There is zero reason to fly with a primary that fails and one can get killed by actuating a release out of sequence. The only reason you need a secondary at a shoulder or two is to handle a bridle wrap.
Yeah with respect to the weak links and...
Because of the sort of abomination that the paragraph to which I referred Brian yesterday represents, everybody is using weak links optimized for gliders of 174 pounds towing two point and 200 towing one - i.e., Karen is the heaviest glider that should be using those things and only if she's towing off her shoulders. Those weak links start getting dangerous for everyone up from there.
With respect to apologies...
It appears that I rammed my foot in my mouth and lodged it firmly about halfway down my throat with the comment about the glider size thing. Shoulda stayed out of aerodynamics about which I'm fuzzy and stuck to simple mechanics where I'm on solid ground. Yes - apologies for that were in order and have been made - inadequate though they may be.
I like Lauren and Paul quite a bit and have taken big hit on that one and I hope they'll allow me to repair at least some of that damage.
Yesterday I said:
>
And - so far - I don't have any indication that I've lost any friends I wanna keep.
<
Can't say that anymore - that's a first for me in my 28 years in the sport.
But - anyway - those are the only apologies I owe at present.
I'm not trying to threaten Lauren (or Dustin) and I've never meant this to be a personal attack of any kind. But I just find it astonishing that we've gotten to the point that a lightly loaded release can lock up on tow and nobody even sees it as a problem - let alone one worth reporting.
There is no freakin' way we would accept similar failures in commercial and general aviation, the cars we drive, or the bicycles that six year olds get as birthday presents. Hang gliders? Hell, this is just they way things are and have to be.
--
Flying Lobster
2008/04/21 23:54:28
This forum needs a dickhead release.
--
Spark
2008/04/22 00:22:17
I agree, but if the release failed, it would be quite painful ... emasculating ... and debilitating :lol:
--
Seems Spark is offended by vulgarity only when I direct it towards someone who didn't think a glider design flaw which almost cost me being paralyzed from the neck down was worth a note to the manufacturer.
If it's directed towards someone who is trying to keep another pair of arms from being broken it's perfectly OK and good for a chuckle.
With respect to the magazine article...
A couple of us who used to do a lot of work on the CHGA newsletter - yours truly and Ralph, in that order - independently concluded that it was a massive waste of time and money. The Internet was gearing up during my tenure as Secretary and eventually my brain kicked in enough to realize how insane it was to pull text off the wire and edit it to make if fit on a few sheets of paper to be photocopied, collated, folded, stamped, and mailed at the expense of great effort and a good chunk of the budget.
The CHGA newsletter has been dead for three years.
I'd like to see a stake driven through the heart of the national magazine for the same reasons.
And digging through boxes and flipping through thousands of pages is an insane way to try to research anything.
USHPA should kill the magazine and buy the Oz Report.
I've thought about writing a magazine article but I'm not optimistic that words and pictures on paper would be any less readily dismissed than the ones on the screen have been.
I do have an article up on the web. It's about 140 pages long - freakin' PhD thesis on aerotowing that's only rarely been glanced at. That would require a little effort and it's a whole lot easier and more fun to do stuff like this:
--
Batman
2007/05/22 13:24:03
When you start showing empirical data with proven and qualitative results instead of clouding the issue with conjecture, misquotes, and speculation maybe I will be more inclined to listen, but right now it just seems you are grasping at straws and I have no clue what the point in all of this is.
--
How 'bout this Matthew,
How 'bout you spend fifteen minutes with me at Ridgely sometime and see if there's any validity to anything I'm saying and post your impressions - favorable or un-. 'Cause nobody 'cept occasionally Brian is gonna look at the numbers.