Great day at Woodstock

[XCanytime]

I just got back from a Florida trip this afternoon at 4PM.? As I expected, the descent into BWI from altitude in the AirTran jet was very choppy.? I was loving every minute of it, and the rest of the passengers weren't.? They (my wife and daugher included) were looking at me like I was nuts.? We could tell somebody crapped in their pants ahead of our seats at some time during the roller coaster ride.? As we landed the left wing got lifted just a tad (I could feel it).? I talked briefly to the captain about the chop, and he had the typical cool attitude of a pilot.? I asked him if the left wing got up on him, and he kinda did the half-pipe thing with his hand a few times, paused, and said yeah it did.? As we exited the tunnel there was evidence on the carpet that a passenger didn't make it to the porcelain convenience.? So with these events, I'm absolutely certain that it was great at Woodstock today, with probably both ridge runners and downwinders getting high and going far.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Bacil

[mcelrah]

Yup, there were 15-20 gliders at Woodstock. (I'm not going to try to
name them all.) It was rowdy with a pronounced south cross. Several
strong pilots went south against the wind: Bruce Engen made it to New
Market, Dan T. to Edinburg, Tom McG. went out and back. The rest of us
got bounced around locally. Wiser pilots waited late for conditions to
moderate: Christy, Karen, John Middleton and the H-2s: Dan B. and
Linda. Matthew *did* get to fly his paraglider late in the day after a
long hang-glider flight (minus a left wingtip which he lost early in
the flight). Pilots reported altitudes of up to 6000 feet over launch!
Gorgeous day with 30 mile visibility. Sailplanes buzzed launch and I
saw an airplane headed south over the LZ a good 2000 feet below my
altitude. The season is in full swing! - Hugh
P.S. Woulda been a perfect day to fly to Front Royal - but who was
going to drive retrieval?
P.P.S. Props to Dave Bodner for riding out on his motorcycle and
helping a bunch of people launch before he had to go home early.

On 1 May 2005, at 18:33, XCanytime@aol.com wrote:

> I just got back from a Florida trip this afternoon at 4PM.? As I
> expected, the descent into BWI from altitude in the AirTran jet was
> very choppy.? I was loving every minute of it, and the rest of the
> passengers weren't.? They (my wife and daugher included) were looking
> at me like I was nuts.? We could tell somebody crapped in their pants
> ahead of our seats at some time during the roller coaster ride.? As we
> landed the left wing got lifted just a tad (I could feel it).? I
> talked briefly to the captain about the chop, and he had the typical
> cool attitude of a pilot.? I asked him if the left wing got up on him,
> and he kinda did the half-pipe thing with his hand a few times,
> paused, and said yeah it did.? As we exited the tunnel there was
> evidence on the carpet that a passenger didn't make it to the
> porcelain convenience.? So with these events, I'm absolutely certain
> that it was great at Woodstock today, with probably both ridge runners
> and downwinders getting high and going far.
>
> ????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Bacil
>
>
>
>

[Matthew]

Yep. Great Day! Got over 2 hours and 5100 over launch (6100 agl). Haven't done that in a while. And had a good landing despite the turb and switchiness in the LZ. Crappy launch, though. Been trying to slow things down into more of a walk, jog, run. Went off too slow and started moving before yelling clear. Wing came up slightly and I got turned to the right. Started running faster then!

Landed due to frigid temps up high and so I could run up an help Linda off. She had a great launch! Then launched the PG for a 23 min flight. Way turb and strong for the PG. Spent a lot of time on my tippy toes on the speed bar to creep out front. There was still so much lift that I climbed all the way out to the LZ even on full speed bar.

Karen got about an hour and Gary Smith got 4800 over and made it out to I-81. The mountains were a beautiful green. Best day I've had flying for a long, long time.

Matthew

[kcarra]

Many thanks to the many pilots who delayed their Mexican dinner to assist me in launching. And then I probably gave them a good scare. Matthew and I were the bad launch couple yesterday. I'm not sure what happened. I assume that I probably popped the nose. All of a sudden I was headed towards the left side of the launch which I thought was odd because we had a left cross all day, and then I rocketed up into a wild ride out of the slot. Once out there I just parked for awhile, contemplating what might have happened. Then I realized I wasn't going anywhere and pulled a little more VG. I had a really nice flight. I haven't flown Woodstock for maybe a year and it was just gorgeous. But any feedback on that launch would be appreciated.

Karen

[breezyk1d]

Had a clean launch, and a decent landing with about 10 minutes of soaring just before sunset.

Absolutely beautiful day. My loaner kneehangers performed beautifully (thank you!) as did the new primary hang strap that has me lower and in better proximity to the control bar. I practiced the difference between flying minimum sink and best glide (even with the full face helmet you can hear the difference in the wind) and there is the bar pressure difference too.

Thanks to Matthew for observing and Matthew and Gary S. for wire crew, and Gary for the retrieve.

Christy got in a nice flight - she said it had been a while for her but she that she was willing to observe for me also if Matthew had been stranded in the air by too much lift.... <grin>. - Linda B.

[Matthew]

Yep. Great Day! Got over 2 hours and 5100 over launch (6100 agl). Haven't done that in a while. And had a good landing despite the turb and switchiness in the LZ. Crappy launch, though. Been trying to slow things down into more of a walk, jog, run. Went off too slow and started moving before yelling clear. Wing came up slightly and I got turned to the right. Started running faster then!

Landed due to frigid temps up high and so I could run up and help Linda off. She had a great launch! Then I launched the PG for a 23 min flight. Way turb and strong for the PG. I spent a lot of time on my tippy toes on the speed bar to creep out front and I had a few small tip collapses. There was still so much lift that I climbed all the way out to the LZ even on full speed bar. I thought that I might not get down.

Karen got about an hour and Gary Smith got 4800 over and made it out to I-81 and back. The mountains were a beautiful green and glowed in the late day sun.

Oh yeah. Lost my left winglet sometime during the first hour of my HG flight. Rowdiness was a 6 on a 1-10 scale for the first hour and there were a few moments of BIG ASS TURBULENCE where the wind gusts/rotor/thermal/sink attempted to rip the base tube from my hands, turn me back into the mountain or drop me out of the sky. The winglet must?ve sheared off of the Velcro off during one of those moments. (I?ve been in worse at Woodstock!) Despite that, it was the best day I've had flying for a long, long time. It mellowed out and really turned on during the second hour. And I didn?t notice any difference in handling with only one winglet.

I didn?t notice it was missing until after I landed.

Matthew

[Danny Brotto]

Mathew reported on his loosing one of his winglets and how he had not realized it had been missing until after landing. This supports other accounts of pilots unawares of their winglet coming off and not noticing any difference in glider ?feel?. The winglets are ?supposed? to improve handling and performance and since there are 2 (one at either wing), they ?should? do so in a symmetrical manner. It should also stand to reason that if one is lost the additional performance of the one still attached should impart better performance on that wing. If the winglet improved performance at all, it should be noticeable as and unbalanced feel to the glider. That wing roll up (more lift generated) and/or yaw forward (less drag.) Since neither is the case, one must question the value of the winglets?

Sounds like it was a bit sporty yesterday (it certainly was quite rowdy flying my sailplane.) Matt?s not noticing the lost winglet could certainly be attributed to the texture of the air. But Matthew reported smoother conditions later in his flight. Also at Hyner on more than 1 occasion, I?ve seen pilots shearing a winglet off doing aerobatics, finishing and entering the landing pattern (all in smooth air,) oblivious to the lost winglet.

Seems that any performance advantage is offset by the increased drag; and there must be a lot of drag to pull the winglet off it?s Velcro moorings.

Comments, thoughts?

Danny Brotto

[mcelrah]

Were you one of the sailplanes we saw ridge-running fairly low? Where
do those guys come from? - Hugh

On 2 May 2005, at 21:19, Danny Brotto wrote:

> Mathew reported on his loosing one of his winglets and how he had not
> realized it had been missing until after landing. This supports other
> accounts of pilots unawares of their winglet coming off and not
> noticing any difference in glider ?feel?. The winglets are ?supposed?
> to improve handling and performance and since there are 2 (one at
> either wing), they ?should? do so in a symmetrical manner. It should
> also stand to reason that if one is lost the additional performance of
> the one still attached should impart better performance on that wing.
> If the winglet improved performance at all, it should be noticeable as
> and unbalanced feel to the glider. That wing roll up (more lift
> generated) and/or yaw forward (less drag.) Since neither is the case,
> one must question the value of the winglets?
>
> Sounds like it was a bit sporty yesterday (it certainly was quite
> rowdy flying my sailplane.) Matt?s not noticing the lost winglet could
> certainly be attributed to the texture of the air. But Matthew
> reported smoother conditions later in his flight. Also at Hyner on
> more than 1 occasion, I?ve seen pilots shearing a winglet off doing
> aerobatics, finishing and entering the landing pattern (all in smooth
> air,) oblivious to the lost winglet.
>
> Seems that any performance advantage is offset by the increased drag;
> and there must be a lot of drag to pull the winglet off it?s Velcro
> moorings.
>
> Comments, thoughts?
>
> Danny Brotto
>
>
>
>

[XCanytime]

Front Royal Airport.

[Danny Brotto]

Bacil

It was reported to me by a HG pilot that LBL passed by Woodstock launch. LBL (Baude Litt) flying an LS-8 began his flight at M-ASA Fairfield(near Ski Liberty), flew to Burnt Cabins, then up to the N end of the ridge at Thompsontown, down the ridges to Massanutten Peak, and back to M-ASA Fairfield (plus a bunch of turnpoints inbetween.)

I suspect that other saiplanes were on the ridge originating their flight from Front Royal but Baude launched from M-ASA and flew all over the place from there.

Baude is a very good pilot.

Danny Brotto (in wave, climbing at 500 ft/minute w the O2 turned off...grrr)

[Matthew]

I initially got the winglets because they helped dampen PIOs at high speed. But then I learned that the PIO problem in Ultrasports doesn't come from the speed itself but rather the pilot pushing down on the basetube instead of pulling in when stuffing the basetube towards the knees. The pushing down causes a change in the CG and thus the PIOs. I tried this out a few times to confrim this theory. I also did some min sink tests with and without the winglets when towing in stable air when my glider was new. I got a better min sink with the winglets than without. But now my glider is pretty old. So the improved sink is probably negligible. One of the Wills Wings guys actually told Cragin that the winglets actually decreased performance in the Ultrasports. So I guess I don't need them.

But they look so cool! And I have spares.

Cool is good.

Matthew

[Paul Tjaden]

In a message dated 5/2/2005 9:19:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dbrotto@comcast.net writes:

Seems that any performance advantage is offset by the increased drag; and there must be a lot of drag to pull the winglet off it’s Velcro moorings.

Comments, thoughts?

I had winglets on my US 166 but decided they were "just for show" after a couple of months and quit using them because of the hassle factor. When I read Matthews post about losing one I was tempted to write?a similar post to Danny's but chose not to because Matthew and I had argued?(I mean discussed) there value before and I didn't want to get it all started again but as long as Danny started it.......??
?
The new ATOS?VR rigid wing glider has winglets and was supposed to be a quantum leap in performance. I was concerned that my VX that I had just purchased would be obsolete almost immediately but after flying with several of them last week and doing quite well against them my?concerns are gone. I know winglets have been proven to enhance performance on faster aircraft and even faster sailplanes but perhaps we fly too slowly for them to be of any real value on a hang glider.
?
Paul

[CraginS]

[quote="Matthew"]
>>SNIP<< One of the Wills Wings guys actually told Cragin that the winglets actually decreased performance in the Ultrasports. So I guess I don't need them.
But they look so cool! And I have spares.
Cool is good.
Matthew[/quote]

To clarify and elaborate, the 'Wills Wing guy' I had talked to about winglets on the UltraSport was Rob Kells. I talked to him at the WW Demo Day at Ridgely two years ago (first year he brought out a U2)
Rob told me that the winglets are designed for the Fusion, and work as well on the XC. However, they are not for the US, and will probably cause a slight degradation in performance when used on the US.
The difference is that the Fusion and XC both have wing tips cut parallel to the keel. Thus, the winglets face forward properly in straight flight on those two wings. On the US, however, the wing tips are cut at an angle to the keel. So, on the US, the winglets are always presenting an oblique side face to the effective wind, creating drag, no matter whether the glider is in straight flight or a turn. Thus they always add drag, but have only negligible if any added value as an airfoil.
I asked Rob why, if this is the case, so many people fly wiht winglets on the UltraSport. His answer was simple, "Because they look cool."

I sold my winglets to McKee. (Well, I will have sold them to him when he actually pays me.)
Yes, cool is good, but I have NEVER been cool, so no point in trying to pretend now.

Cragin

[hang_pilot]

I sold my winglets to McKee. (Well, I will have sold them to him when he actually pays me.)
Did you tell him that they “always add drag, but have only negligible if any added value as an airfoil”? J ~Daniel

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[rancerupp]

In case some folks did note the language that Cragin used... WINGLETS would not add, but rather take away from the flight characteristics due to their non parallelism (is that a word?) to the airflow.

However, wing tip COVERS (something to just cover the hole and NOT stick up above the wing) WOULD possibly help to keep an open wing tip from acting like a wind sock catching the oncoming wind.

Rance

[CraginS]

[quote="hang_pilot"]I sold my winglets to McKee. (Well, I will have sold them to him when he actually pays me.)
Did you tell him that they ?always add drag, but have only negligible if any added value as an airfoil?? J
~Daniel

Daniel,
Actually, I told Chris exactly the full story as I had gotten it from Rob Kells. However, he had lost one or both of his winglets for his US, and wanted to replace them.
In addition, anyone who knows McKee knows that the coolness factor is a major aspect of his life-approach. He, like Matthew, wanted them anyway because they DO look cool.

cragin

[hang_pilot]

Hi, Cragin-
?
The character “J” at the end of my message was originally a smiley face when I typed it to indicate the intended tongue-in-cheek nature of the post.? As it got lost in the digital translation, let me say that I’d never seriously impugn anyone in this forum. ~Daniel
?

?
-----Original Message-----
From: CraginS [mailto:cragin_sh@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 2:27 PM
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
Subject: Great day at Woodstock
?
[quote="hang_pilot"]I sold my winglets to McKee. (Well, I will have sold them to him when he actually pays me.)
Did you tell him that they “always add drag, but have only negligible if any added value as an airfoil”? J
~Daniel

Daniel,
Actually, I told Chris exactly the full story as I had gotten it from Rob Kells. However, he had lost one or both of his winglets for his US, and wanted to replace them.
In addition, anyone who knows McKee knows that the coolness factor is a major aspect of his life-approach. He, like Matthew, wanted them anyway because they DO look cool.

cragin

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[brianvh]

On Thu, 5 May 2005, Broxterman.Daniel wrote:

>=A0 let me say that I'd never seriously impugn anyone in this forum. ~Dani=
el
> =A0


Dan, Dan, Dan. Do we have to explain everything? You'll see that Cragin
intentionally impugned McKee twice in a row. Why else do you think Gore
invented listservers? Get with the program.

-BrianVH.

[hang_pilot]

Dan, Dan, Dan. Do we have to explain everything?
>>>Hell, no.
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