High Rock Saturday

[Matthew]

SOARABLE ALL DAY LONG!!!!

It was just like the old days with gliders all over ths sky. We had 14 pilots flying at the Rock today-- me, Karen, Hugh, Carlos, Chris Dabrowski, Gregory the Greek, Janni, Glenn Hardy, Tim Hurlinger, David Bodner, David Churchill, Kelvin, Mike Lee and even Richard Hays. With Richard and Glenn flying, it was like having two Santas in the Sky!

I got just under 2 hours and 900 over. Karen got about an hour and 600 over. Janni flew for three hours and hang 2 David Churchill got almost 3 hours too. Kelvin report 1200 over.

BIG BIG THANKS TO GEORGE TUTOR FOR COMING OUT AND WIRE CREWING ALL DAY!!!

You should've been there!!!!!

Matthew

[RedBaron]

It was so much fun, great flying with you all. First time ever I flew with the big Hays, kinda shameful, don't you all think?
That said, today was the closest I've ever come to a midair. Someone flew right over me with maybe 10 feet clearance and we were both maybe 500' over the ridge, a thermal popping me up could have ended both our lives. It happened so fast, I didn't have the time or space to react with an appropriate evasive maneuver so I just stuffed the bar and kept a flat profile.
I had a hard time myself keeping track of everybody out there. I realized that traffic rules are useless without any traffic lights, 10 gliders on a short ridge and 10 pilots horny for airtime. I'd just like to remind everybody that midairs are real, never get close to a glider and you can always land when it gets too crowded, which I indeed should have done long before I actually ended my flight.

[Danny Brotto]

I had a hard time myself keeping track of everybody out there. I realized that traffic rules are useless without any traffic lights, 10 gliders on a short ridge and 10 pilots horny for airtime. I'd just like to remind everybody that midairs are real, never get close to a glider and you can always land when it gets too crowded, which I indeed should have done long before I actually ended my flight.

In my version of "the old days", we were flying gliders with much lower and narrower performance. It took some time to fly from one end of the ridge to the other. Ten gliders were no problem and I once flew with over 20! Closing speeds were much lower allowing for a wider window to react to various traffic situations. One of the challenges of flying a faster glider is the mental exercise it takes to maneuver around the crowd. An alternative approach would be to use the entire range of available ridge lift. Pilots tend to jockey for the sweetest spot on the ridge to get the best altitude. When the ridge is solid, think about playing further out in front to avoid the mixing bowl. You’ll still be able to soar although possibly not as high, and you’ll be able to do so without having to deal with avoiding traffic so much. (You should always pay attention and always clear your turns regardless of your perception of whose around you.)

Yeah, short ridge and all that... mixing it up with Falcons and topless gliders does present it's set of challenges; now think about throwing a couple of paragliders into that mix.

Danny Brotto

[RedBaron]

The fact that the wind was 45 to 90 degree cross relative to the ridge resulting in a narrow or even disssipated lift band made matters much worse and dramatically increased the chances of a collision either above ridge or at landing. Sure there were spots that seemed to be working all the time NE of launch but naturally most pilots including myself tried to survive sink cycles in front of or near launch.
High Rock was a good call, worked out great and I'm glad we could support Emma Jane again; nevertheless I'd like to share with you how I feel about everything in hind sight. With a W cross and a big group of pilots ranging from H2's, Falconers and three H3's on new gliders I honestly believe that High Rock wasn't the safest place to launch, fly and land. Every time the choice of site isn't obvious we have to weigh wind direction against velocity against convenience. The Pulpit would have probably been stronger, perhaps even 15-20 mph, but straight in with lift evenly distributed over the entire ridge providing safer launches, more space and more options for every pilot. Within reason wind velocity is nothing to worry about, a Falcon can easily handle a steady 16 mph at any of our flying sites. I think we should realize that High Rock with a W cross is by far more technical than 20 mph straight in on the ramp at the Pulpit.

[mcelrah]

Not trying to change the subject, but I forgot to mention in my summary post on the other string the mature bald eagle who came through low going downwind, then reappeared later (I assume it was the same one) soaring with the gliders. There was another bird, possibly an immature baldy, down low on the ridge headed north earlier.

So Danny, was that you in the sailplane?

- Hugh

[Danny Brotto]

Hugh

That wasn’t me; it was Buade Litt flying his LS-8-18 contest numbers “LBL”. Baude is an amazing pilot and he had a characteristicallygreat flight. He towed into wave at 4.5K MSL near the Blue Ridge Summit quarry. Topping out at 10K MSL, he pushed on to the next visible wave bar over Waynesboro but got hammered arriving below cloudbase. Strategy changed to intercepting the ridge at Smithburg and flying down the ridge to Harpers Ferry. From there he could connect with ridges up to McConnellsburg and beyond. Unfortunately the ridge near Smithburg was not working (wave suppressed?) and he retreated to HR to hang on until the first thermals formed. Eventually he climbed using thermal back into wave to 10K MSL allowing him to access the Tuscarora. The ridges there were working and he flew from south of McConnellsburg up to Thompsontown. Unfortunately the day waned and he landed out just to the NE of HR. You can see his flight here: http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gl ... =683626790

Mike Higgins managed to fly across the Hagerstown valley in the wave. It looks to have taken him 6 or 7 upwind wave bars to get to an area south of Hancock. From there back to Fredrick and onto a landing back at the G-port. It appears his entire flight was made in wave never getting below 2000 meters MSL. You can see his flight here: http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gl ... =686296191

Personally I had a 3 hour flight catching the wave at 4.5K MSL over the Blue Ridge Summit quarry which is a reliable entry when the winds are westerly. I found the wave to be patchy and only managed to climb to 8K MSL. There the wind was blowing over 50 knots. I tried to explore to the NNE into an active looking area but ended up falling out below the wave, then into the rotor (which wasn’t too rough) and finally down into the lackluster thermal zone. The NW side of Ski Liberty was working so I ridge soared there for about 15 minutes watching the skiers slosh around in the snirt (snow/dirt combination.)

After degigging, it was too late to snag a HG flight but I headed over to HR just in case someone needed a launch or retrieve. I just missed Karen’s launch by a few minutes. I understand the conditions were more difficult earlier in the day with a west cross but at 3:30, everyone seemed to be sticking well in rather mellow, smooth, and only slightly cross air.

All in all, not bad for a short winter day.

Danny Brotto

[Flying Lobster]

I downloaded Baude's igc file and ran it in CU--what a fascinating story it tells !
Looks like he banged into the wave right off the tow--but I don't see a similar peak in altitude until he flew south past the Pulpit and reconnected someplace south of Whitetail. What's interesting is that it appears that lift in the wave is rather light--with only a few peaks in the 400+ range. But on the run back across the valley I noticed a spot of 1,000+ down prior to reconnecting again somewhere around Chambersburg!

Lots to learn even for HG pilots by running your guy's igc files. I will pay more attention to them if you wish to notify us of interesting flights.

marc

[Flying Lobster]

Errr--I ran it in reverse the first time (duh) scratch previous comments above (except for lift comments). Became more obvious when I just did the automated thing at high speed.

marc

[Matthew]

From Janni....

With a W cross and a big group of pilots ranging from H2's, Falconers and three H3's on new gliders I honestly believe that High Rock wasn't the safest place to launch, fly and land. Every time the choice of site isn't obvious we have to weigh wind direction against velocity against convenience. The Pulpit would have probably been stronger, perhaps even 15-20 mph, but straight in with lift evenly distributed over the entire ridge providing safer launches, more space and more options for every pilot. Within reason wind velocity is nothing to worry about, a Falcon can easily handle a steady 16 mph at any of our flying sites. I think we should realize that High Rock with a W cross is by far more technical than 20 mph straight in on the ramp at the Pulpit.


*************

Janni, I've been flying both sites for over ten years. It would have been blowing 25+ all day long at the Pulpit. There's no way a Falcon could have launched there, let alone any sane pilot. As to the alleged crowd, you have yet to experience that at the Pulpit. Most pilots hang out between launch and the LZ at the Pulpit-- and this bit of ridge is no longer than the ridge at the Rock. Also, it wasn't that crowded at High Rock. Back when more people flew regularly, the skies could be much more crowded at High Rock and pilots would have no problem. It's a matter of experience. If you thought that was crowded, I'd advise you to never go to the Point of the Mountain or some of the other truly crowdedc site with 40+ pilots all on a very, very small ridge.

However, the next time the forecast is for 10-15 the day after a huge front comes through, with winds aloft forecast for 30, and lots of witnessed wave, be my guest and go to the Pulpit and watch it blow like stink all day long. We'll all be at Woodsctok or High Rock flying.

Matthew

[XCanytime]

Hey Matthew,
Sorry, but that was no huge front. The temperature hardly fell a few degrees, if at all. I've studied the weather long enough to recognize that kind of day. Yes it would have been strong at the Pulpit. 15 to 20. Maybe 25 tops. Straight down the centerline of the ramp. I'll take that anyday over west on the cube, and a 90 degree xwind on the NNW facing airstrip that is the High Rock LZ.

Bacil

[kcarra]

Yes. It was a huge front. And, yes, there was wave all over the mid-Atlantic on Saturday. I love the Pulpit and choose to go there over High Rock all of the time. How many times have I started pushing for the Pulpit on a Tuesday? How many times is my forum post "PULPIT-PULPIT-PULPIT"??? But I've followed the quest of quixotic madmen fixated on dreams of XC flight at the Pulpit, no matter what the forecast, too many times. We've stood there and watched the wind blow 30+ and then retreated to High Rock to fly. Or worse, we've stood there all day hoping it would get better only to find out later of great flights at High Rock. So excuse me, I've learned things the hard way over the years and choose safety and flying fun over dreams of epic XC flights.

But as I said before, if anyone wants to go to the Pulpit the next time there is a similar forecast, go ahead. Sometimes people need to learn the hard way. Been there. Done that. I've learned from experience.

Matthew

[XCanytime]

Matthew,
I've also been there and done that much more than you have. So here's the dealeo. Pretty simple on days like Saturday. If you really want to truly fly at the Pulpit, and not follow the herd mentality, then get there early, get set up, and be ready to go before it throttles up to the midday strength. More often than not the winds aloft are not like they are at launch. At 9AM Hagerstown had west winds of 7 MPH on Saturday. The only problem is getting others to want to do the same thing. That's the stickler.

Bacil

[mcelrah]

Mooo! - Hugh

[kcarra]

Tried the early AM Pulpit thing-- hasn't worked out yet. Pulpit is primarily a thermal site. It works best after 1pm once the valley has started to heat up. All of my XC flights at the Pulpit have occurred when launching after 1pm. The filp side of this is that if the forecast is 10-15, it's blowing 25 by 10 am at the Pulpit. And by 1pm in the afternoon with all of the thermals popping off, it's blowing 25 with gust of over 35. So the question is- -- how many times has launching early at the Pulpit before it's ramped up too much to launch worked out for a great XC? Has this ever worked out? Or do you end up being beaten up on the ridge and never getting high enough to go over the back?

I've had better luck going on days with light west winds and lauching in the afternoon.

Double Moo!!!!

Matthew

[XCanytime]

Matthew,
I remember distinctly April 25th, 1998 at the Pulpit. Why do I remember this one to a T? Because it happened exactly like I planned it. Got there at 9:15AM knowing it was going to be honkin' midday. Forecast typical: West 10 to 15 mph. George Price bitched about not beating me to the mountain; he got there at 9:30AM. For some reason he thought there was some contest on who was first at launch. I was just covering all bases by getting there early. Launched at 10:15AM knowing that it was going to throttle up midday. It was blowing 20 when I launched. I flew alone for 3 hours, boating around waiting for the 1P+ timeframe, testing out the air. The air aloft was fine. The whole time I was flying, nobody launched, since I wasn't getting "high", even though there were plenty of launchable cycles, according to those who were there. They didn't know I was just conserving energy until "gametime" after 1PM. At 1:30PM I hit a good one out front and took it OTB. There was the usual stampede to launch. Just then it picked up to very strong. George went up to launch and backed off. John Dullahan got a window and launched, as did Kevin Madden. The rest of the pilots hung around all afternoon and never launched since it did not back down. I went 14 miles, John 17 miles, and Kevin around 20 miles. Moral of the story: GET THERE EARLY, NO MATTER WHAT TIME OF YEAR IT IS, so you can launch ahead of the midday throttleup. Getting there early gives you the most options.

Two other days come to mind with similar results: 3/16/97 and 3/23/97, where I launched at 10:30AM on the 3/16 date and was at 5700' MSL and cloudbase in 15 minutes after launch. Ended up getting 15 miles to Greencastle while others were stuck at launch. The 3/23 date I took off at 12 noon, and was quickly to 6400' MSL, and ended up with another 15 miler to north of Greencastle.

These 3 XC flights confirmed the theory of getting there early before the midday throttleup and blown out conditions on launch. The air aloft on all 3 flights was not bad at all.

So getting there early has worked out for me every time I've done it for the past 10 years, and I do it everytime I go to the Pulpit. If worked out means taking off before the midday throttleup.

Bacil

[Matthew]

OK. So you have 3 out of about a million. Not my kinda odds. You go your way. I'll go mine... and a most of the time we'll go the same way. I'll just get there a little later and enjoy a nice afternoon flight to High Rock from the Pulpit.

Matthew

[XCanytime]

Matthew,
3 out of a million? Such a blanket statement that doesn't mean dudely squat. And it's not accurate anyway. Let's present the data in a different format. I've haven't waited around at the Pulpit since 1996. XC is not the measure of a flight. It's a safe takeoff, no scares in the air, and a safe landing. That is the safe measure of a good flight. So back to square one. West cross on the cube versus straight down the centerline of the Pulpit ramp? A crowded ridge with less experienced pilots versus a longer ridge (it is longer) with less experienced pilots. 90 degree cross in the airstrip versus straight in at the Ball Diamond? I know where I would go, and I'd be getting there early, Mr. Safety

Bacil

[Matthew]

Yep-- back to square one-- blowing 25+ at the Pulpit-- no longer of a ridge and, oh yes, I had a wonderful 2 hour flight at High Rock with lots of friends and landed when the winds were blowing straight down the field. Or I could've gone to the Pulpit instead and watched wind blow like stink and not have flown.

Hmm. Hard choice :)

Matthew

[lbunner]

Sorry for the length of this reply. I enjoy hearing the banter about conditions at these sites. Definitely a good learning experience for me. The discussion reminded me of a couple sites flown in the past. The first was Whiskey Peak on the eastern edge of the Red Desert in Wyoming. The Red Desert extends west from WP about 150 miles to the Utah border. It is known for the great wind compression on the mountain and the fact that if you want to fly XC you better get there early before the wind ramps up. Kevin Christopherson set the then world record distance of 287 miles there back in 1987. Kevin was a local pilot from Casper; he would get to the top of the mountain early every day he flew and launch in the morning (sometimes as early as 8:30). The first part of the flight was spent ridge soaring waiting for the thermals to start. If the wind ramped up before the thermals he would edge out further over the valley to avoid the turbulence. Many times he would be soaring while the rest of us were ground bound and then thermal up to fly 150 miles. It didn't take long to figure out the secret; the early bird gets the great flight whereas the late bird spent the day chasing us in the retrieve vehicle.
The other site isn't nearly as dramatic however there is a 150' hill in Wisconsin that was soarable in a WSW wind on occasion. Dan Morris called me one night predicting that the hill would be soarable early the next morning before it blew out in the afternoon (30+mph). We agreed to get there at 8:00 and get some hours in before the blast came. I arrived at 8:30 and Dan was already set up. The wind was STFI at 15 and he was soon at 300' over launch. I set up and self launched in slightly stronger conditions but had no problems getting up to Dan. We both soared this knob for 2 1/2 hours never getting higher than 300' over. Sometime after 11:00 a lull occurred (sometinmes happens just before the thermals start triggering) and we were both scrambling out of each others way at ridge height. Dan finally bailed to the LZ and I hung on long enough for the wind to pick back up only now there were thermals too. Anyway I was fortunate to fly into a fat one out in the valley that got me high enough to feel comfortable thermaling over the back. I flew with 3 bald eagles in this thermal to 2500' over before I lost it. Ended up landing an hour later 35 miles away in gusty 25+ mph winds. Anyway, the moral for me is regardless of the site, get there early, set up and be prepared to take advantage of the front end of the day or you may miss your opportunity.

[XCanytime]

Matthew,
I can't sit here and say that it wasn't blowing hard just as well as you can't say that it was blowing 25+ all day at the Pulpit Saturday, because neither of us were there. Agreed? Smart-ass comments are absolutely unnecessary in the discussion. Factual data is. Now I see how Tad feels sometimes

Bacil

[XCanytime]

Larry,
Thanks for the input. See you early at the Pulpit next time .

Bacil

[Dan T]

For what it's worth:

On numerous occassions I've seen Bacil get there early and fly for hours while the rest of us set up slow and watched it blow like stink until well into the afternoon.

Tom McGowan once suggested to me that we should launch fairly early even on light wind days and launch again if we sink out. He consistently goes OTB when he flies there.

I've reached the high rock lz or that ridge 4 times and each time I launched after 1:00.

I've had fun OTBs numerous times, I think all of them were on flights started after 1:00.

My take on it is fly safe and have fun, and remember the people on here are not only your friends they are people you entrust your life to. Be nice to each other.

Dan T

[RedBaron]

Just came back from too much to drink. Happy new year everybody and please, let's not moo over this. HR was a good call, Matthew. You did good as I said before and I had a great time. This is not about you making a bad or good call, however.
For the purpose of my post it's totally irrelevant if the Pulpit was flyable or not. It's also totally irrelevant if anybody thinks 10 pilots in the air at HR is not a big crowd. Does anybody here realize that we came close to three casualties that day because of the W cross on launch and the big crowd? Am I and Bacil the only pilots who take issues with that? We would be having a totally different discussion now with three pilots boxed.
Let's look at this for what it is, a big red flag. You don't have to listen to me but the next time you fly the rock you may be well-advised to wait until pilots have landed or land as soon as pilots get too close for comfort. Some have done just that, I wasn't smart enough but I sure learned my lesson.

[brianvh]

Three comments:

1. It blows my mind that Bacil can quote exact dates and details. I don't know whether he's looking at archives or a log book, but just being able to pinpoint the relevant details is incredible.

2. The marker of a front is typically a change in dewpoint (water vapor concentration), not temperature.

3. It sounds like flying would have been less than ideal in either place.

[Matthew]

As a discussion point, then let's talk about rules of the ridge and avoiding other pilots when you are trying to both thermal and ridge soar. These problems relate to inexperience and communication. Conditions at High Rock were great. In the 'good ole days', we had lots more pilots in the air and everything worked out well. Thus, why don't we talk more about clearing turns and how to avoid collisions? We also need to define what is too close for each individual pilot. I saw a few pilots flying that weren't always clearing turns. So I stayed away from them. You not only need to ber clearing your own turns to see and avoid, you need to be looking around and seeing if other pilots are moving their heads around when they are flying and constantly scanning the sky for traffic in all directions. Then you need to talk to any pilots and let them know how you feel and that they need to work on this. Everyone being on the same radio freq would also help. And, as oftern discussed in the past, pilots need to follow a queu when landing in quick succession. And be prepared for other landing opitons if someone cuts you off when landing. Janni did this very well on Saturday.

So, perhaps, this would be a good discussion for the annual safety meeting and maybe Janni could lead the discussion. And maybe some pilots might actually show up at a meeting for a change.

As to Bacil, why weren't you at the Pulpit on Saturday? And what about X-mas??? I dragged a few other pilots out to the Pulpit on X-mas day and flew. Didn't see you there. I think you're jealous because you know that I really love the Pulpit more than you do.

:)

Matthew