helmets

[Dan T]

In a message dated 4/25/05 10:07:08 AM, adventuretales@yahoo.com writes:

<< So go ahead, let the flamefest begin. I've heard it all before. I don't
have good peripheral vision with a full face helmet. It's too heavy. I don't
land on my face. You can't make me where one. Flying is a free sport and I
can do what I want. You have no proof that full face helmets are safer. >>

A couple summers ago I switched from a relatively heavy motorcycle street
helmet to a lightweight motocross helmet. The helmet is full face. The
peripheral vision is fine, it's not heavy at all, and there is plenty of proof from
the motorcycle industry that a full face one is superior from a safety
standpoint. Flame Matthew if you want but don't use those excuses, they don't hold up
to the facts.

Oh and by the way, you only have to land on your face once and you'll be a
convert, just ask the numerous pilots who have, both the ones who were wearing
them and more tellingly the ones who weren't.

Dan T.

[brianvh]

I'm afraid most people who don't wear full face helmets have been flying
for 20+ years and simply won't be convinced.

but I'd take Matthew's statements a step further: all helmets I've seen
designed specifically for hang gliding will prevent puncture, but will do
little or nothing to decrease the
deceleration of your head upon impact because they have almost no foam.
You want low deceleration, and the amount of deceleration is inversely
proportional to the distance over which your head decelerates.
Thicker foam yields more protection: no amount of space age technology
can get around this simple mathematical fact. I'd go with motorcross over
these shell-like hang gliding helmets any day. And those beak-like
projections that many helmets have in front of the chin could cause
massive neck injury upon impact. Some even have hooks in front to catch
basetubes and such...what the hell? Go for full-face but flat motorcross.

Bobba Fet's helmet (star wars bounty hunter) is suitably flat, though I don't
think much of his peripheral vision.

Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149

[Dan T]

As much as I favor full face motorcross helmets, I think we are better off
encouraging rather than demanding their use. I don't really know a good way to
do it. If recent events aren't enough encouragement I don't know what would be.

I've been in this sport about 8 years now and I've heard of more than two
fatal accidents that might have been ones that enabled a full recovery with a
full face motorcycle helmet. That seems like an awfully high price to pay for
the nominal additional enjoyment factor some other version provides.

[rs54263]

Like Matthew said: if you don't want to fly with a full-face helmet
(because of the "enjoyment factor"), that's fine; just don't fly at the
Pulpit Fly-In when we are more publicly visible. Volunteer as ramp
crew; help out at the registration table; do some retrieve driving;
then go enjoy hang gliding with an open helmet on another day.

~Ralph


================================================================
from: Wuffo1@aol.com (04/25/2005 15:23)
================================================================

As much as I favor full face motorcross helmets, I think we are better off
encouraging rather than demanding their use. I don't really know a
good way to
do it. If recent events aren't enough encouragement I don't know what
would be.

I've been in this sport about 8 years now and I've heard of more than two
fatal accidents that might have been ones that enabled a full recovery
with a
full face motorcycle helmet. That seems like an awfully high price to
pay for
the nominal additional enjoyment factor some other version provides.

[Richard Hays]

Many years ago everyone locally flew with the shortie style helmets. The
only pilots convinced of full face ( locally anyway ) were me and Tom Jones.
We got alot of ribbing about being "bikers" and what-not but I was
conviced that after having slammed my face against my Sensor 510's faired
tube in a controlled crash landing, that the full face saved me from a
broken nose or teeth, etc.

Then....the worst thing in the world happened. On two different occaisions
at the Pulpit, Raenn Permenter and Ed Tom crashed on launch, diving FACE
FIRST into the rocks below. They are both lucky to be alive today but they
DID NOT have full face helmets. Each suffered horrifying facial trauma,
shattered skulls,etc. They literally had to be pieced together bone by
facial bone in the hospital. Eye orbits were shattered. Jaws were shattered
like glass. They were horribly disfigured for a long time. And....neither
one looks like they did before the crash due to the amount of surgery
performed. But thank god these two wonderful people are still alive today.

BUT...In my opionon, the resulting injuries could have been either prevented
OR at least lessened somewhat IF they had had better helmets ( full face ).
Interestingly.....one by one the local pilots began flying with full face
helmets. It's rare NOT to see a pilot wearing one today. There are
exceptions and they are entitled to their beliefs but.....

Craig McBlane did an awesome and informatiive article in the Windrider about
helmets. Dig it up if possible. Wrote it about 10 years ago. It goes into
depth about what Brian was referring to regarding shock absorbancy, etc. I
too believe in the moto-cross style ( RATED ) helmets and don't even
encourage people to buy the hanggliding versions....losing sales $$$ by
doing so. Personally, I want something thats' been rated for crashes
involving motorcycles as the testing bed. Not too unlike our speed
envelopes. And.....lastly, if peripheral vision is such a big deal....TURN
YOUR BIG HEAD MORE !!!! Jeeeez. Duh....

Rich Hays
MSHG, Inc.

>From: Vant-Hull - Brian <brianvh@umd5.umd.edu>
>Reply-To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>To: hg_forum@chgpa.org
>Subject: Re: helmets
>Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:01:04 -0400
>
>I'm afraid most people who don't wear full face helmets have been flying
>for 20+ years and simply won't be convinced.
>
>but I'd take Matthew's statements a step further: all helmets I've seen
>designed specifically for hang gliding will prevent puncture, but will do
>little or nothing to decrease the
>deceleration of your head upon impact because they have almost no foam.
>You want low deceleration, and the amount of deceleration is inversely
>proportional to the distance over which your head decelerates.
>Thicker foam yields more protection: no amount of space age technology
>can get around this simple mathematical fact. I'd go with motorcross over
>these shell-like hang gliding helmets any day. And those beak-like
>projections that many helmets have in front of the chin could cause
>massive neck injury upon impact. Some even have hooks in front to catch
>basetubes and such...what the hell? Go for full-face but flat motorcross.
>
>Bobba Fet's helmet (star wars bounty hunter) is suitably flat, though I
>don't
>think much of his peripheral vision.
>
>Brian Vant-Hull
>301-646-1149
>
>
>

[John Harper]

I don't think that the public will care what kind of helmet your wearing if
you crash right in front them. I tend to agree with what Kevin said.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Sickinger (R2)" <r2@sickinger.net>
To: <hg_forum@chgpa.org>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: helmets


>
> Like Matthew said: if you don't want to fly with a full-face helmet
> (because of the "enjoyment factor"), that's fine; just don't fly at the
> Pulpit Fly-In when we are more publicly visible. Volunteer as ramp
> crew; help out at the registration table; do some retrieve driving;
> then go enjoy hang gliding with an open helmet on another day.
>
> ~Ralph

[Matthew]

And what exactly did Kevin say? Hyperbole is not an argument! Going off into wild exagerations and unsupported what-ifs is essentially admitting that you have no argument. So John and Kevin, if you have an actual argument in support of not requiring full face helmets at competitions, I'd love to hear them. That's how debate works. That's how problems are clarified and resolved.

Matthew

[John Harper]

There are many people who think we are crazy for flying at all does that mean we shouldn't fly? It's dangerous isn't it so why do it. Wheels are safer in most situations should we require people to use them maybe they want get hurt if they fly into the ground. I don't think Kevin was arguing for or against full face helmets he was talking about personal preference the risk you as a pilot (you are accepting some risk just by hooking in)are willing to take. If we require full faced helmets what's next. Will everyone be required to have big orange wheels.
?
Original Message -----

From: Matthew (adventuretales@yahoo.com)
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org (hg_forum@chgpa.org)
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:31 PM
Subject: helmets



And what exactly did Kevin say? Hyperbole is not an argument! Going off into wild exagerations and unsupported what-ifs is essentially admitting that you have no argument. So John and Kevin, if you have an actual argument in support of not requiring full face helmets at competitions, I'd love to hear them. That's how debate works. That's how problems are clarified and resolved.

Matthew

[Matthew]

John,

I have not suggested a requirement be made for wearing full face helmets all of the time. I have suggested a requirement that full face helmets be worn during USHGA sanctioned competitions and during the Pulpit Fly-In. There are already plenty of rules and regulations in competitions, even WILD AND FREE hang gliding competitions. So no pilot's rights TO FLY FREE are being suppressed. It's just a simple measure, that most pilots adhere to already, to improve safety. There is no what's next.

Matthew

[Matthew]

I don't think that the public will care what kind of helmet your wearing if
you crash right in front them....


John,

This is an interesting point. Here's the counterpoint. The public will understand the difference between....

A.) Someone walking away from a crash or sustaining minor injuries (say, for example, after plunging face first into the rocks below the Pulpit)

or

B.) Someone having serious facial trauma, thier face crushed to an unrecognizable pulp or the pilot being killed due to the crash.

In case A the pilot was wearing a full face helmet and case B the pilot wore an open face helmet.

Though the public may not notice the two different styles of helmets, they should be able to understand the different outcomes. Let's do more to prevent outcome B. Is that really too much to require of our top competition pilots... the ambassadors of our sport? Really???

And is it really too much to require our club members to do this once per year to set an example of safety for the entire sport?


Matthew

[Flying Lobster]

Wild and free comp? I haven't been to one of those. Where's the next one??

marc

[John Harper]

Seems to me the biggest consern?should be that both pilot A and B made bigger mistakes in judgement by blowing their launches.

----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew (adventuretales@yahoo.com)
To: hg_forum@chgpa.org (hg_forum@chgpa.org)
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 9:21 PM
Subject: helmets



I don't think that the public will care what kind of helmet your wearing if
you crash right in front them....


John,

This is an interesting point. Here's the counterpoint. The public will understand the difference between....

A.) Someone walking away from a crash or sustaining minor injuries (say, for example, after plunging face first into the rocks below the Pulpit)

or

B.) Someone having serious facial trauma, thier face crushed to an unrecognizable pulp or the pilot being killed due to the crash.

In case A the pilot was wearing a full face helmet and case B the pilot wore an open face helmet.

Though the public may not notice the two different styles of helmets, they should be able to understand the different outcomes. Let's do more to prevent outcome B. Is that really too much to require of our top competition pilots... the ambassadors of our sport? Really???

And is it really too much to require our club members to do this once per year to set an example of safety for the entire sport?


Matthew

[Matthew]

Hi John,

Yes, the blown lauch is a major issue. But you came up with the scenario to make a point about the public. So please try to focus on the original point of your argument if you have one.

Matthew

[Dan T]

In a message dated 4/25/05 9:51:28 PM, jharper@ceva.net writes:

<< Seems to me the biggest consern?should be that both pilot A and B made
bigger mistakes in judgement by blowing their launches. >>

The rebuttals to Matthew's arguments sound a lot like the old arguments
against the mandatory use of seatbelts. I remember hearing the "what if I get
stuck and can't get out of the car and it catches on fire or sinks in a river?"
This latest one equates to "if they were going to get in a wreck they shouldn't
have driven at all."

The bottom line is, just as surely as seat belts save lives, so do full face
motorcycle helmets. The folks at NASCAR require roll cages, five point seat
belts, full face helmets and other safety features to particpate in their
events. The old bootleggers who pioneered that sport probably objected to all of
these changes. Does anyone seriously think automobile racing is better off
without them? Do any of us think hang gliding is any less dangerous? If so we
might take another look at the fatality statistics.

I have yet to hear a rational rebuttal to Matthew's suggestion that we start
the process towards improving the safety record of our sport by insisting that
the participants in OUR fly-in simply "buckle up." It's a small first step.
My guess is that if we take it now we will eventually see the day when we
didn't have to scrape one more of our best friend's faces off the rocks.

Dan T.

Dan T.

[Flying Lobster]

Matt--I happen to agree with you that all pilots interested in increasing their chances for survival in the event of a head-first impact should wear full-face helmets. I have saved my face--and likely my life--more than once due to the fact I had full face protection. Contrary to what others have said here, I have had full-face hang glider helmets take and successfully absorb/deflect severe impact forces. That's based on my first hand experience which included an extended stay in the intensive care unit after a tumble/upset which ended with an extreme high-speed impact into a tree trunk head first. The chin guard deflected the impact so that my head turned slightly to the side. The chin guard did break and I still sustained a severe concussion, abrassions tearing off part of my face, my right arm snapped in multiple places and a lacerated spleen which hemoraged internally for 4 days resulting in a huge loss of blood. There is absolutely no doubt that had I been wearing a half shell helmet I would have been killed instantly on impact.

But I don't think an agressive, insulting approach is going to pursuade people to your position--and may in fact have the opposite effect.

I don't think a legislative mandate will work either (as in the case of the Pulpit fly-in). Among other things, once you set a safety standard for equipment as a condition for permitting or refusing flight--you have set a precedant for legal responsibility which could be opening up a liability can of worms.

I think peer-pressure is the best approach--as for example Rich Hays' statements. Wire crews may remind a pilot that flying without a full-face helmet increases their risk of severe injury or death (though I seriously doubt meaningful statistics exist to prove this). But just because someone insn't wearing a full face helmet doesn't mean you should "get in their face."

marc

[huddlec]

As someone who works in the public safety field (pedestrian safety in this case), I get to hear about stupid things done by lots of pedestrians and stupid things done by lots of drivers. I don't think you can legislate away stupidity. When bad things happen to people who do stupid things, it's called evolution in action. Maybe, over time, this can improve the gene pool.
?
Most of us have done something stupid in the risky sports we have taken up. Some of us have come close to getting hurt (or killed) and learned something from it. Some keep making mistakes and never learn. Some are really lucky until that one fatal moment.?
?
As for making seat belts the reason for why we should be wearing full face helmets: in cars, it's particularly critical?that?you have the headrest adjusted properly. How many of us know what properly is?? (It's in your owners manual.) How many of us take the time to adjust it?? And if we have another driver usually the car, how many of us make sure the other person adjusts it correctly, and then readjust it for ourselves?? How many of us make a point of not exceeding the speed limit, especially in urban areas???How many of us talk?on the cell phone when driving?? I suspect we're all guilty somewhere and are putting ourselves, and?worse, others, at risk because of it. To me,?it's more important that we don't put others at risk. Let them make that choice themselves.?
?
I like hang gliding because it's a real test of personal responsibility. So much can happen if the pilot makes a poor decision. I think we should concentrate our safety efforts on educating how the risk can be lowered.? Then let the pilots choose for themselves.? This does not include putting someone else at risk.?We should never?put at risk another pilot (or spectator if they're helping you launch) by not paying attention in the air, etc etc etc.
?
Time to work for the people who pay me.?
?
Christy


Flying Lobster <in_a_cloud@hotmail.com> wrote:

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Matt--I happen to agree with you that all pilots interested in increasing their chances for survival in the event of a head-first impact should wear full-face helmets. I have saved my face--and likely my life--more than once due to the fact I had full face protection. Contrary to what others have said here, I have had full-face hang glider helmets take and successfully absorb/deflect severe impact forces. That's based on my first hand experience which included an extended stay in the intensive care unit after a tumble/upset which ended with an extreme high-speed impact into a tree trunk head first. The chin guard deflected the impact so that my head turned slightly to the side. The chin guard did break and I still sustained a severe concussion, abrassions tearing off part of my face, my right arm snapped in multiple places and a lacerated spleen which hemoraged internally for 4 days resulting in a huge loss of blood. There is absolutely no doubt that had I been wearing a half shell helmet I would have been killed instantly on impact.

But I don't think an agressive, insulting approach is going to pursuade people to your position--and may in fact have the opposite effect.

I don't think a legislative mandate will work either (as in the case of the Pulpit fly-in). Among other things, once you set a safety standard for equipment as a condition for permitting or refusing flight--you have set a precedant for legal responsibility which could be opening up a liability can of worms.

I think peer-pressure is the best approach--as for example Rich Hays' statements. Wire crews may remind a pilot that flying without a full-face helmet increases their risk of severe injury or death (though I seriously doubt meaningful statistics exist to prove this). But just because someone insn't wearing a full face helmet doesn't mean you should "get in their face."

marc



got art?
http://www.marcfink.com/
wanna fly?
http://www.downeastairsports.com/

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[mcelrah]

I just don't think the club should be about rules and requirements. -
Hugh

On 25 Apr 2005, at 21:21, Matthew wrote:

> I don't think that the public will care what kind of helmet your
> wearing if
> you crash right in front them....
>
>
> John,
>
> This is an interesting point. Here's the counterpoint. The public
> will understand the difference between....
>
> A.) Someone walking away from a crash or sustaining minor injuries
> (say, for example, after plunging face first into the rocks below the
> Pulpit)
>
> or
>
> B.) Someone having serious facial trauma, thier face crushed to an
> unrecognizable pulp or the pilot being killed due to the crash.
>
> In case A the pilot was wearing a full face helmet and case B the
> pilot wore an open face helmet.
>
> Though the public may not notice the two different styles of helmets,
> they should be able to understand the different outcomes. Let's do
> more to prevent outcome B. Is that really too much to require of our
> top competition pilots... the ambassadors of our sport? Really???
>
> And is it really too much to require our club members to do this once
> per year to set an example of safety for the entire sport?
>
>
> Matthew
>
>
>
>

[kcarra]

[quote="mcelrah"]I just don't think the club should be about rules and requirements. -
Hugh

The club IS about rules and requirements - all meant to keep us and our flying sites safe. We require certain ratings, we require pilots to sign waivers, etc. We wouldn't allow a pilot to fly off our sites WITHOUT a helmet.

I think we need to look at the reasonableness and the scope of the proposal, which was made in response to the tragic event at Quest. And of course we can always vote against it.

Karen

[rs54263]

It occurs to me that Matthews proposal for the Fly-in (which is meant
to set an example for the rest of USHGA - not an unreasonable
objective) doesn't say that people can't *fly* at the fly-in without
full-face helmets; it just means that they can't *compete* without
them.

~Ralph

[Matthew]

As Ralph noted, the PROPOSED requirement pertains to the Pulpit Fly-In competetion. Thus, during the comp launch windows each day, you must meet the requirement of wearing a full face helmet to launch under my proposal. My proposal does not exclude anyone from launching and flying before and after the launch window. But to set things straight, the launch window generally takes up the major portion of the day. And it is standard protocol at comps to only allow competitors to launch during the launch window. If you aren't signed up for the comp, you CANNOT launch during the competition launch window. That's an old and standard rule that, so far, hasn't offended anyone.


Matthew

[ChuckPyle]

Just a couple of comments from the voyeur in the group.
(1) My 1963 Austin Healey was manufactured before seat belts were required
-- therefore, I'm grandfathered and don't (legally) have to install them
...... UNLESS I want to compete in one of the Austin Healey Club of
America's (AHCA) competitions. If I want to compete (even in the local
events) I am REQUIRED to have seat belts installed (and worn) and am
REQUIRED to have 40 psi tire pressure. Many of these "races" are time
trials with only one car on the course at a time so it's not a matter of
possibly losing control and running into another car -- it's about the
safety of the driver and self-governing of the AHCA -- so Big Brother
doesn't do it for us.
(2) I ride motorcycles too. Prior to my accident, I didn't often wear a
helmet ....... now, I do -- always.

Chuck (getting back in the air in May -- via boat tow!! -- woo hoo!)

[brianvh]

The operative phrase is "so far". Even though 95% of pilots wear full
face helmets the response on the listserver convinces me we would lose
about 25% by bad vibes. I think a judiciously applied scoring award to
those who do fly with full face helmets will be far less offensive yet still
get the point across.

Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Matthew wrote:

If you aren't signed up for the comp, you CANNOT launch during the competition
launch window. That's an old and standard rule that, so far, hasn't offended
anyone.
>
> Matthew

[Matthew]

Brian, Huh? The few people who have voiced opinions aginst my proposal all wear full face helmets. Where did you come up with 25%? Plus, Kevin is down in Florida. John Harper is not a member of the club and I don't think has ever flown the Pulpit. Sparky wears a full face helmet. Christy wears a full face helmet. I actually only know of a two pilots who fly the mountains in this area who don't wear full face helmets. And one of those told me WAY BEFORE ALL OF THIS that he is buying a full face helmet. The other pilot I know of has disappeared off of the radar screen and I doubt that he will show up at the Pulpit Fly-In.

Hence, I do not see any reason to change my original proposal, which I will make at the meeting tomorrow night. Please attend if you wish to discuss this subject.

Matthew

[brianvh]

IF you would read what I said, 95% (or more like 98%) of pilots wear full
face helmets, but they still don't like where this is going. Sometimes
doing things the ham-handed way backfires.

Brian Vant-Hull
301-646-1149

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Matthew wrote:

> Brian, Huh? The few people who have voiced opinions aginst my proposal all wear full face helmets. Where did you come up with 25%? Plus, Kevin is down in Florida. John Harper is not a member of the club and I don't think has ever flown the Pulpit. Sparky wears a full face helmet. Christy wears a full face helmet. I actually only know of a two pilots who fly the mountains in this area who don't wear full face helmets. And one of those told me WAY BEFORE ALL OF THIS that he is buying a full face helmet. The other pilot I know of has disappeared off of the radar screen and I doubt that he will show up at the Pulpit Fly-In.
>
> Hence, I do not see any reason to change my original proposal, which I will make at the meeting tomorrow night. Please attend if you wish to discuss this subject.
>
> Matthew

[Danny Brotto]

>>>I actually only know of a two pilots who fly the mountains in this area who don't wear full face helmets. And one of those told me WAY BEFORE ALL OF THIS that he is buying a full face helmet. The other pilot I know of has disappeared off of the radar screen and I doubt that he will show up at the Pulpit Fly-In.

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Gee, and to think that I'm being thought of as having disappeared off the radar screen

Great flying in California last week. Hills are impossibly green and colorful with wildflowers after those weeks of deluge.

Weekend looks wet, anybody want to go flying on Thursday? If winds are light enough, I'm thinking Ridgley or possibly HR.

Danny Brotto