Vegas HG Accident

Spark · Post by **Spark** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:00 pm

A pilot has been severly injured after falling from his hang glider.

As with many tragedies, there are several lessons to be learned.

More information is available at the link below:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4046

The accident pilot is a good friend.

'Spark

YouTube · Post by **CraginS** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:58 am

Spark,
Very sorry to hear about this accident, and your friend.
I read the message thread - this one sounds like a bit of a mystery, so far.

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:41 am

Sorry about your friend.
I hope they post the "new information" on that other discussion group soon.

Post by **brianvh** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:41 pm

Sorry to hear about that, and hope for a full recovery. I really wish he'd had insurance.

The use of integral hang straps has always mystified me. If the 'magician's knot' explanation is true, can an integral backup really be called a backup?

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:32 pm

Further reading along that thread suggests that the carabiner never made it anywhere near the webbing.

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over the "magician's knot" threat with respect to suspension adjustment. As far as I can tell there ain't no such animal. I think it was just a throwaway comment to suggest that he somehow managed to effectively miss the target. If anyone can figure out a way to separate a carabiner from a loop after first hooking through it once he's gonna have to be a helluva lot more creative than I am.

With respect to the integral backup loop...

Wills Wing (or any) backup suspension - integral or not - is there for precisely the same reason as the emergency exit painted on the brick wall in the Springfield Nuclear Power Plant ("How about real lead in the radiation shields?"). It makes pilots feel safer.

Spark · Post by **Spark** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:42 pm

The accident glider was my Falcon 225. It had a main hang strap and a backup, in excellent condition, but the accident pilot was not connected to either of these.

There is more to say, but this is not the time.

'Spark

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:11 pm

he's gonna have to be a helluva lot more creative than I am.

Well I guess there's some pretty creative people out there then... cuz this has been done plenty of times. I was shown how to do it, as way of warning, when I was a H2.

It doesn't matter if this is what happened to this guy or not. It's not a "throw away"... this does happen.
Drop the arrogance, go read some old accident reports and quit hijacking threads.

Jim

Post by **brianvh** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:33 pm

I seem to remember tying one of these when trying to shorten an extra long hang strap: lots of twisting, but after inserting the carabiner and tugging it pulled out. For the life of me I can't reproduce it. I hope I never do.

I think the secondary has two purposes: to guard against breakage, and to guard against this sort of thing. An integrated will do the first only.

But we don't know what really happened.

stevek · Post by **stevek** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:52 am

Seems to me that Tad is pointing out something useful: regardless of the number of wraps, you hook thru only one strap only once and you are in there. That seems right to me. (?) Anyway why is that arrogant? It is certainly topical so why is it hijacking?

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:08 pm

If the main strap has a bridge or ladder type connectors. and the biner is attached to this (without going around the main strap as well) and it fails its hasta la vista. Falcons have seperate mains and backups--impossible for me to see how a magical failure is possible.

marc

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:10 pm

Seems to me that Tad is pointing out something useful: regardless of the number of wraps, you hook thru only one strap only once and you are in there. That seems right to me.

No, it's not.
An integral main/backup is not one strap.

Take a separate main/backup setup on a glider... now, still on the glider, sew the two straps together. This is now exactly what you have with an "integral" setup. I'm not talking "similar"... this is exactly what one is.

Hijacking...
>Brian> "is an integral actually a backup?"
>Tad> "backups are useless... bla bla bla"
>Me> "yes, an integral is a backup... here's why..."

One is opinion, one is discussion.
I'd love for someone to show me a falcon that even has an integral main/backup. Integrals are used with bolted hang straps.. kinpost hangs and topless gliders. Last I checked, the falcon was still a keel hang.

Jim

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:14 pm

Unless an extension was added which was wrapped around the main and simply overcame friction and pulled through.

marc

Post by **hepcat1989** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:32 pm

Spark, Sorry man......
I believe in proper length hang straps period.......
I had Lookout make me one. It cost $6.75.
I don't believe in twisting, tying in knots with hang straps.
Yes, i've seen knots.
F*#K THAT!!!
I don't know man......again sorry Spark. We all don't know the whole story either....
Peace, Shawn.

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:07 am

Radwhacker (whoever that is) talked with Bill...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 1921c07a80
Basically, launched unhooked and held on.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:12 am

Yeah, having suspension the proper length is nice.

And it would be great if, as I heard proposed somewhere on the national grapevine many years ago, there was such a thing as a standard harness suspension length and all gliders came out of the box with suspension that would put those harnesses at precisely the right height over the basetube. I forget exactly when I stopped holding my breath.

But if one is going to insist on straps of proper length (period) one should, failing substantial advance notice, resign oneself to being quite restricted to one's personal glider and not expect to take advantage of a lot of flying opportunities as, for instance, when Rob Kells or one of his counterparts has taken the trouble to drive across the continent with a truckload of demos.

If climbers are smart enough to be able to tie a few knots to stay safe dangling a thousand feet above the scree we should be able to master the art of completing two wraps in the same direction or fashion a loop of perlon to secure around a keel.

And, of course, having suspension just the right length is far from a guarantee that you're gonna be attached to the glider.

Is it possible to screw up a wrap or knot and die as a consequence? Yeah.

Is it possible to screw up a landing approach - in which a lot more variables and skills are involved - and die as a consequence? Yeah.

Are those good reasons to pass up a couple of hours of airtime on your buddy's T2 or throw your chute three hundred feet over the cow pasture?

Brian,

I think I've read Jim's latter post of Tuesday enough times to discern something of an intended point but...

As usual, he dodges the issue of Wills Wing's stated position and defines it as just another one of my (loony) baseless "opinions". I wish I had been smart enough to figure things out before the manufacturer of your glider but they beat me to the punch by a couple of decades or so.

Yeah, as you said, an integral backup will offer no protection against overly creative hook-in procedures. So Wills Wing is obviously not designing the bulk of its fleet with that scenario in mind.

Also, glider suspension doesn't break. It's still gonna be intact many Gs after you and your glider are history. So Wills Wing is not installing backups to guard against breakage.

Yeah, I know - Christy.

I currently clip in at a bit over 250 pounds. It's possible for a linear longitudinal run of fifteen stitches of dental floss securing a length of flat nylon webbing into a loop to let me complete a sled run to the lake shore (as long as I keep my turns shallow, anyway).

So what does this tell us about the construction of Christy's primary?

I'm wondering if it was held together with anything more substantial than double sided adhesive tape.

If one inspects a real - as opposed to gag - hang strap one will find several inches of stitched overlap that's stiff as a board. You can bet your life - and simultaneously those of several of your more metabolically challenged friends - that that junction ain't never goin' nowhere.

Flying Lobster · Post by **Flying Lobster** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:38 am

I'm pretty certain that Wills Wing does not take the position that back-up hang loops are an unnecessary redundancy. Rob's statement more likely had to do with the ultimate load bearing strength of a good-condition main relative to the failure strengths of the aluminum frame components.

marc

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:34 pm

That statement of two years ago was from their Technical, Support, Harnesses, Hang Loops - not Dealership/Sales Programs - guy (i.e., Mike - not Rob). Reprinted with permission.

If Wills Wing thinks about engineering the way I do - and they do - they're not gonna use a stitched connection that holds to two tons on a piece of webbing that holds to three. They're either gonna smarten up the stitching or dumb down the webbing.

So we're talking a doubled three ton connection. Six tons. That's about the same as and seven times what my steel carabiner and the glider can withstand respectively. It doesn't have to be a good condition main - it can be a really, really crappy condition main and it still won't be an issue.

All grammar checkers flag split infinitives only to happy make people - not because there is any legitimacy to the concept. Reread Mike's statement. They're not there because of any safety concern. They're there 'cause they got tired of listening to pilots whine.

Let's say that somebody in the rigging shop gets drunk and fails to fully crimp the lower nico on your port flying wire. If you rtfm and follow the preflight procedures you're gonna find that problem. Better still - if you put a pair of calipers on the nico you can find that problem and fix it yourself.

If somebody on the sewing machine had a bad day (see Christy incident) you can (and should anyway) do a less precise but perfectly effective preflight inspection of that component too.

You need multiple straps way less than you need multiple wires.

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:15 pm

Just can't resist the urge to turn a hookin failure discussion into "backups are unnecessary" rant can you?

Post by **hepcat1989** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:38 pm

Spark · Post by **Spark** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:52 pm

jimrooney wrote:Just can't resist the urge to turn a hookin failure discussion into "backups are unnecessary" rant can you?

Nicely said ... I really like the economy of words ... Thanks Jim.

Post by **huddlec** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:03 am

The hang loop on the PacAir glider was supposedly new since the glider had been picked up at the factory in November and I flew it in February. Ole said it was a new glider at that time, so we assumed the hang loop was also new. I have no idea what the history of the hang loop had been so it may have been mishandled. I've heard of bad thread. In any case, the primary didn't make it to the crash site in the lake, since it blew off on the way down. We didn't think to have the secondary checked, although since it was black and the main was white, it was likely sewn with totally different thread. I didn't fly with the primary looped around my carabiner. Ole had put the hang loop around the keel such that the extra length was taken up in the 2 wraps around the keel and through the hang loop. I watched him do this the day before (when I flew the glider in that configuration the first time) and no one flew the glider in the interim except me.

If I'd known how Ole would react to my hang loop break, I might have been thinking about how to keep the broken hang loop, but I was already too occupied with 'just' surviving.

Christy

Post by **Dan T** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:40 pm

As reluctant as I am to enter this debate I can't help but note one obvious fact, Christy's backup saved her life. If it had saved yours my guess is you'd be a convert regardless of the eloquence of any arguments to the contrary.

Dan T

Post by **theflyingdude** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:49 am

huddlec wrote:The hang loop on the PacAir glider was supposedly new since the glider had been picked up at the factory in November and I flew it in February. Ole said it was a new glider at that time, so we assumed the hang loop was also new. I have no idea what the history of the hang loop had been so it may have been mishandled. I've heard of bad thread. In any case, the primary didn't make it to the crash site in the lake, since it blew off on the way down. We didn't think to have the secondary checked, although since it was black and the main was white, it was likely sewn with totally different thread. I didn't fly with the primary looped around my carabiner. Ole had put the hang loop around the keel such that the extra length was taken up in the 2 wraps around the keel and through the hang loop. I watched him do this the day before (when I flew the glider in that configuration the first time) and no one flew the glider in the interim except me.

If I'd known how Ole would react to my hang loop break, I might have been thinking about how to keep the broken hang loop, but I was already too occupied with 'just' surviving.

Christy

I wasn't there so I have no opinion on what actually happened; however, I spent some time hanging out with Ole during the 2006 King Meet and he disputes the notion that Christy's hang loop actually failed. He thinks it was pilot error, not equipment failure. I'm not suggesting he's correct, only that there are always two sides (or more) to every story.

JR

Post by **huddlec** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:37 pm

Ole was lying when he said I was lying about the incident. If I'd had any clue that he was like this, I never would have trusted him with the equipment. He also said I didn't weigh more than 100 pounds and that I couldn't have reacted the way I did. He said I had no business flying the K2 because of my weight, yet he insisted that I could fly the K4 (which I did because I trusted him and which I landed as soon as I got high enough to make the regular LZ.) Turns out he had a bad accident on his trike and almost died - because he panicked and got confused. Here's his story on that:
http://www.learntoflytrikes.com/story_C ... fusion.htm

Lucky for me, I didn't react the way Ole did when the shit hit the fan.
Christy

jimrooney · Post by **jimrooney** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:56 pm

Guys, can we get off this inane backup discussion? (apparently not)
It's a fabric to metal connection.
That's why it's backed up.
Just like your VG chord is backed up by a steel cable.

The downside of having one is absolutely ZERO.
So who cares?!

Jim

chgpa.org

Vegas HG Accident

Vegas HG Accident

Really Sorry about your Friend

noting the obvious