I was thinking that it would be a good day to go XC on Friday. So I got my friend Tom McGowan to go With me and we had a driver and we ultimately decided to go to Cumberland, High Point. The Wind was getting stronger and I wanted to get off as soon as possible. So we set up did all the necessary chores and I moved down to launch first with are driver on my nose wires. I waited for a lull, cleared the driver and made sure that the wings were level and started my run but about three steps into run the nose just went down and I power whacked in to terra firma never got my feet off the ground. The end result was that we missed a day of good flying because JR and Tom took me to the hospital where I received 10 stitches in my lips because terra firma didn't like the way I kissed her as well as bending one down tube. By the ways she, Terra Firma has a mean left. Thanks to Tom and JR for taking care of me.
Bruce Engen
Day at Cumberland
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
-
hepcat1989
- Posts: 684
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:15 pm
-
Paul Tjaden
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:28 pm
Damn, Bruce! You gotta quit beating up that handsome face. The girls won't want to ride in the back of the truck with you anymore!
Seriously, glad it wasn't worse. Wonder what happened? It's not like you haven't foot launched once or twice before. I had the same thing happen to me trying to launch my T-2 at the training hill at Lookout Mtn. Everyone just told me I was too old to run fast enough to launch a topless from a training hill but I had done it before with my Litespeed and the hill was pretty steep. Maybe the lull was the back side of a thermal and you got dumped.
Guess it's nice to be a country club flyer!
Paul
Seriously, glad it wasn't worse. Wonder what happened? It's not like you haven't foot launched once or twice before. I had the same thing happen to me trying to launch my T-2 at the training hill at Lookout Mtn. Everyone just told me I was too old to run fast enough to launch a topless from a training hill but I had done it before with my Litespeed and the hill was pretty steep. Maybe the lull was the back side of a thermal and you got dumped.
Guess it's nice to be a country club flyer!
Paul
I suppose we have all experienced down pressure on the glider on the launch run - very disconcerting and unwelcome. While it is generally correct to keep the nose down to avoid launching into a stall, there's no hard-and-fast rule about nose angle relative to the horizon - it's really angle-of-attack relative to the wind. I leave it to wiser heads to prescribe what to do about this. Thanks, Bruce, for posting so we (hopefully) can learn from your misfortune. As they used to say on The Lone Ranger, "it's just a flesh wound" - and will just contribute to your craggy good looks! Sorry it happened and glad it wasn't worse! - Hugh
I thought I would add my two cents to Bruce's launch. I was standing, hooked in, about 20 feet behind him and watched his entire launch.
Conditions were good for a big xc flight. We had strong cycles at launch but nice long light cycles too. Winds were mostly straight in, but depending on the cycle could be somewhat cross from either direction. Clouds were forming above us and not moving terribly fast. The birds looked good and the sky was looking great.
Bruce had one nose wire person serving as wire crew. Bruce cleared the wire person, picked up, his wings were level, winds looked light and up the hill. He ran about three steps and power whacked.
I don't think there was any significant cross wind or that somehow think there was any backside thermal effect. I think "we" had an accident because we were so focused on getting a big flight. The forecast looked quite good. At launch, the day looked very promising. The high cirrus was clearing out and there were lots of nice cummies. We decided to pass on Woodstock and try Cumberland even though there was a risk of it being blown out because conditions were ripe for a big flight and we wanted to start further west. When we arrived, we saw the strong cycles and we thought it might blow out later as thermal strength increased, so we wanted to get off quickly. We had raced out to Cumberland, set up quickly and launched before waiting for JR to arrive and help wire us off (he was due to arrive any minute). Yesterday was one of only a couple of days for me in the past 5 years were I thought things were in line for a big flight. I certainly felt some anxiety and pressure from all this to make the most of my day off.
So I think things turned out the way they did because we were thinking too much about flying and not enough about safety. I say "we" had an accident because I was taking similar risks and could have had the same result. I am just sorry that Bruce also paid the price for my rush to launch.
I think mechanically that Bruce's nose was simply too low. His wings were level and the winds looked good, but he put the wire person on his nose and kept the nose very low because he was worried about a strong gust lifting him. He then held the nose low after clearing the wire person and started running with the nose too low due to the same fear. However, it was too low because we had one wire person, because we didn't want to wait any longer to go, and because I wanted to launch immediately behind him and not have to go hook in and waste 5-10 minutes after serving as a second wire person when I could be flying. Although Bruce is a very considerate guy, I believe he was in a similar state of mind. I remember after we got Bruce back to launch and determined that he was not severly injured, Bruce's first sentence was that he thought he could still serve as wire crew for me, and that I could go launch and get a big flight. We were both completely focused on flying. It took me a few minutes to absorb what happened and decide to break down.
Sometimes looking at the mechanics of an accident don't tell the whole story and understanding what went wrong at that level would not prevent an accident in a similar situation. I could say don't launch with your nose too low; however that wouldn't help too much. It would be more accurate to say to not lose sight of the safety aspect and not be in too much of a rush despite all your expectations for the day. The consequences of losing perspective will bite you, but you can't really predict when or how it will bite you. For me, that urge to fly can be a bigger risk than many other factors, such as poor launch technique, launching in cross cycles, etc. For me, it also is more difficult to identify when the desire to fly has compromised my approach to safety. I hope it is a long time before it gets the better of me again.
Tom McGowan
Conditions were good for a big xc flight. We had strong cycles at launch but nice long light cycles too. Winds were mostly straight in, but depending on the cycle could be somewhat cross from either direction. Clouds were forming above us and not moving terribly fast. The birds looked good and the sky was looking great.
Bruce had one nose wire person serving as wire crew. Bruce cleared the wire person, picked up, his wings were level, winds looked light and up the hill. He ran about three steps and power whacked.
I don't think there was any significant cross wind or that somehow think there was any backside thermal effect. I think "we" had an accident because we were so focused on getting a big flight. The forecast looked quite good. At launch, the day looked very promising. The high cirrus was clearing out and there were lots of nice cummies. We decided to pass on Woodstock and try Cumberland even though there was a risk of it being blown out because conditions were ripe for a big flight and we wanted to start further west. When we arrived, we saw the strong cycles and we thought it might blow out later as thermal strength increased, so we wanted to get off quickly. We had raced out to Cumberland, set up quickly and launched before waiting for JR to arrive and help wire us off (he was due to arrive any minute). Yesterday was one of only a couple of days for me in the past 5 years were I thought things were in line for a big flight. I certainly felt some anxiety and pressure from all this to make the most of my day off.
So I think things turned out the way they did because we were thinking too much about flying and not enough about safety. I say "we" had an accident because I was taking similar risks and could have had the same result. I am just sorry that Bruce also paid the price for my rush to launch.
I think mechanically that Bruce's nose was simply too low. His wings were level and the winds looked good, but he put the wire person on his nose and kept the nose very low because he was worried about a strong gust lifting him. He then held the nose low after clearing the wire person and started running with the nose too low due to the same fear. However, it was too low because we had one wire person, because we didn't want to wait any longer to go, and because I wanted to launch immediately behind him and not have to go hook in and waste 5-10 minutes after serving as a second wire person when I could be flying. Although Bruce is a very considerate guy, I believe he was in a similar state of mind. I remember after we got Bruce back to launch and determined that he was not severly injured, Bruce's first sentence was that he thought he could still serve as wire crew for me, and that I could go launch and get a big flight. We were both completely focused on flying. It took me a few minutes to absorb what happened and decide to break down.
Sometimes looking at the mechanics of an accident don't tell the whole story and understanding what went wrong at that level would not prevent an accident in a similar situation. I could say don't launch with your nose too low; however that wouldn't help too much. It would be more accurate to say to not lose sight of the safety aspect and not be in too much of a rush despite all your expectations for the day. The consequences of losing perspective will bite you, but you can't really predict when or how it will bite you. For me, that urge to fly can be a bigger risk than many other factors, such as poor launch technique, launching in cross cycles, etc. For me, it also is more difficult to identify when the desire to fly has compromised my approach to safety. I hope it is a long time before it gets the better of me again.
Tom McGowan
-
Ashley Groves
- Posts: 247
- Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:01 am
Tom's assessment of rushing and anxiaety about the great conditions sound too much like my episode at Woodstock (the day Tom flew to Blue Sky).
My tale was a lame one about my glider tipping over while debagging. No gory crash or story, but I ended up with a dented leading edge, and lost a few hundred $$, and a few weekends (including the amazing day).
The end result was me having to refocus myself on the tasks at hand and the uselessness of the rush/ anxiety to launch ASAP.
Best wishes to Bruce for a speedy recovery. Sorry to hear that this happened.
My tale was a lame one about my glider tipping over while debagging. No gory crash or story, but I ended up with a dented leading edge, and lost a few hundred $$, and a few weekends (including the amazing day).
The end result was me having to refocus myself on the tasks at hand and the uselessness of the rush/ anxiety to launch ASAP.
Best wishes to Bruce for a speedy recovery. Sorry to hear that this happened.
Ashley Groves
Glad you're okay Bruce. Sounds like the devil just popped up denying you a great flight. Hope you won't read anything into it, shit happens.
I don't belive you're more prone to whacking with too low a nose attitude. The base tube would be banging against your shins before anything else. I'm not flying that wild T2 thing, so things may be different on that, but I always keep the nose as low as I possibly can and wait for the pitch lines to lift me up. Has so far made my launches fast, safe and quite resistant to switchy conditions, as far as I can tell.
Janni
I don't belive you're more prone to whacking with too low a nose attitude. The base tube would be banging against your shins before anything else. I'm not flying that wild T2 thing, so things may be different on that, but I always keep the nose as low as I possibly can and wait for the pitch lines to lift me up. Has so far made my launches fast, safe and quite resistant to switchy conditions, as far as I can tell.
Janni
Nose too low
First I am glad you are OK Bruce and not too banged up from the hammer rotation of your glider. Janni I will give you a story about one pilot who used to launch off of a cliff launch with a low nose angle (actually negative with the horizon) for years without incident. Then one day the pilot's technique didn't work. As the pilot stepped over the edge and expected the pitch to go positive, the nose rotated completely down like when you swing a hammer. The pilot was pinned against the cliff by the wind and one of the wire crew was still holding the side wire, trying not to let the pilot drop into the rocks and trees below. The pilot escaped with only minor glider damage.
Is this cliff launch incident an incident that illustrates the extra risks with a low nose angle? I think so.
Bacil
Is this cliff launch incident an incident that illustrates the extra risks with a low nose angle? I think so.
Bacil
best wishes
Bruce,
Thanks for joining the bang-up club.....
We will be sending you the membership
card and wave your membership fee... LOL
But seriously, I'm glad you're alright..
Once I get tuned in on this glider, hope to
fly with you guys....
'Til then, Mike
Thanks for joining the bang-up club.....
We will be sending you the membership
card and wave your membership fee... LOL
But seriously, I'm glad you're alright..
Once I get tuned in on this glider, hope to
fly with you guys....
'Til then, Mike
Mike Lee
How 'Bout That
How 'Bout That
-
Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
Interesting observations by Tom--I flew in TN for one of their biggest xc seasons ever and have never witnessed more blown/nearly blown launches than I have this spring. I flew mostly with one the biggest xc guys there--and his launches were often terrible. IMO, he simply was way too focused on that thermal or bird or cloud and simply forgot that you had to launch the glider first before flying it. Like Tom, I'm not necessarily pointing a finger at Bruce so much as noticing a possible trend that even the most experienced pilots are not immune to.
marc
marc
Great Googly-moo!
I have noticed that my landings are worse after longer flights - possibly because of fatigue, sensory overload - and failing to make a conscious transition to a faster-paced, higher-workload part of the flight. I'm trying to school myself to do a mental rehearsal of the flare, so it's not an afterthought... Maybe it is helpful to mentally turn a page, say to oneself "OK this is the preflight/launch/thermalling/glide/landing phase of the flight - and here's the checklist that goes with it".- Hugh
-
Lauren Tjaden
- Posts: 371
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:27 pm
Sometimes, shi# just happens, doesn't it? When Shawn recently had the bad landing that resulted in much damage to his glider-- and thankfully, not him -- he may have been hit by extreme turbulence that would have resulted in ANYONE whacking. I wasn't there, so I don't know, and even if I HAD been there, it might have been impossible to tell what really happened.
Ditto with Bruce's launch. He may have done everything right, and still pulled the short straw out of the fickle hand of flight.
But I think it's good if we all think about it very hard when something goes wrong, so we can do everything in our power to make sure it doesn't happen again. The points Tom brought up about the day he and Bruce planned a HUGE flight were very valid. Hopefully Shawn is taking stock of what happened, too. Perhaps he was flying too slowly, or got up on the down tubes too early. Again, I have no way of knowing. And Mike L., hopefully you are thinking about what happened, too, and how you can make sure it won't again.
We all make safety mistakes sometimes, and if we are lucky, we get another chance to prove we have become smarter. I think of myself as extremely conservative, but I have been more lucky than skilled to have walked away from some of my bone-headed moves (like coming in low over power lines the first day of the worlds, only to discover that there was another line, much higher up, that I nearly creamed, or a more recent incident, where I landed -- crashed is more accurate, since I ran a tooth through my lip and destroyed my harness zipper and dented my leading edge -- in a cane field with huge ditches going the wrong way filled with water in 15 MPH wind).
So the number one thing is that we pay attention when something goes wrong. Just in case it COULD have been avoided. And the second is speaking up when you think other pilots need to clean up launches or landings or whatever (and this is NOT aimed at anyone). I have always found it extremely difficult to criticize other pilot's techniques or judgement, but a true friend is not just a cheerleader, and the horrible things I have seen over the years have convinced me that my discomfort at being thought pushy or thoughtless is last on the scale -- though advice is always better accepted when given kindly. Further, it is always the pilot's choice to take any advice to heart or reject it.
Just try to fly safe. It's a fantastic sport. I was looking at the wings of this little glider I was flying yesterday and it was so weird, to be up in the air thousands of feet with the clouds kneeling beneath me, with vultures surfing the same currents as we were, and I really did think how the hell did I get so lucky?
Lauren
Ditto with Bruce's launch. He may have done everything right, and still pulled the short straw out of the fickle hand of flight.
But I think it's good if we all think about it very hard when something goes wrong, so we can do everything in our power to make sure it doesn't happen again. The points Tom brought up about the day he and Bruce planned a HUGE flight were very valid. Hopefully Shawn is taking stock of what happened, too. Perhaps he was flying too slowly, or got up on the down tubes too early. Again, I have no way of knowing. And Mike L., hopefully you are thinking about what happened, too, and how you can make sure it won't again.
We all make safety mistakes sometimes, and if we are lucky, we get another chance to prove we have become smarter. I think of myself as extremely conservative, but I have been more lucky than skilled to have walked away from some of my bone-headed moves (like coming in low over power lines the first day of the worlds, only to discover that there was another line, much higher up, that I nearly creamed, or a more recent incident, where I landed -- crashed is more accurate, since I ran a tooth through my lip and destroyed my harness zipper and dented my leading edge -- in a cane field with huge ditches going the wrong way filled with water in 15 MPH wind).
So the number one thing is that we pay attention when something goes wrong. Just in case it COULD have been avoided. And the second is speaking up when you think other pilots need to clean up launches or landings or whatever (and this is NOT aimed at anyone). I have always found it extremely difficult to criticize other pilot's techniques or judgement, but a true friend is not just a cheerleader, and the horrible things I have seen over the years have convinced me that my discomfort at being thought pushy or thoughtless is last on the scale -- though advice is always better accepted when given kindly. Further, it is always the pilot's choice to take any advice to heart or reject it.
Just try to fly safe. It's a fantastic sport. I was looking at the wings of this little glider I was flying yesterday and it was so weird, to be up in the air thousands of feet with the clouds kneeling beneath me, with vultures surfing the same currents as we were, and I really did think how the hell did I get so lucky?
Lauren
-
hepcat1989
- Posts: 684
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:15 pm
Lauren Tjaden wrote:Sometimes, shi# just happens, doesn't it? When Shawn recently had the bad landing that resulted in much damage to his glider-- and thankfully, not him -- he may have been hit by extreme turbulence that would have resulted in ANYONE whacking. I wasn't there, so I don't know, and even if I HAD been there, it might have been impossible to tell what really happened.
Ditto with Bruce's launch. He may have done everything right, and still pulled the short straw out of the fickle hand of flight.
But I think it's good if we all think about it very hard when something goes wrong, so we can do everything in our power to make sure it doesn't happen again. The points Tom brought up about the day he and Bruce planned a HUGE flight were very valid. Hopefully Shawn is taking stock of what happened, too. Perhaps he was flying too slowly, or got up on the down tubes too early. Again, I have no way of knowing. And Mike L., hopefully you are thinking about what happened, too, and how you can make sure it won't again.
We all make safety mistakes sometimes, and if we are lucky, we get another chance to prove we have become smarter. I think of myself as extremely conservative, but I have been more lucky than skilled to have walked away from some of my bone-headed moves (like coming in low over power lines the first day of the worlds, only to discover that there was another line, much higher up, that I nearly creamed, or a more recent incident, where I landed -- crashed is more accurate, since I ran a tooth through my lip and destroyed my harness zipper and dented my leading edge -- in a cane field with huge ditches going the wrong way filled with water in 15 MPH wind).
So the number one thing is that we pay attention when something goes wrong. Just in case it COULD have been avoided. And the second is speaking up when you think other pilots need to clean up launches or landings or whatever (and this is NOT aimed at anyone). I have always found it extremely difficult to criticize other pilot's techniques or judgement, but a true friend is not just a cheerleader, and the horrible things I have seen over the years have convinced me that my discomfort at being thought pushy or thoughtless is last on the scale -- though advice is always better accepted when given kindly. Further, it is always the pilot's choice to take any advice to heart or reject it.
Just try to fly safe. It's a fantastic sport. I was looking at the wings of this little glider I was flying yesterday and it was so weird, to be up in the air thousands of feet with the clouds kneeling beneath me, with vultures surfing the same currents as we were, and I really did think how the hell did I get so lucky?
Lauren
Yeah, that's right Lauren. You weren't there! That would have been interesting to set up a lawn chair and watch how you dealt with the monster I got hit with.In the secondary at the Pulpit no less! My landings are usually satisfactory, fast, and on my feet. Will that stop me from flying mid day conditions????? Probably not!
Have a nice day and peace be with you.....
Shawn.
-
Lauren Tjaden
- Posts: 371
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:27 pm
Shawn,
Obviously, it was just a case of "sh** happens" with you when you whacked. I thought I was extremely careful to not disparage anyone's abilities in my post, though frankly, all of us make mistakes sometimes. Perhaps someday you will have the pleasure of seeing me demolished by a huge thermal on landing while you sit in a lawn chair and laugh. By the way, "peace be with you" doesn't seem to fit the tone of your note.
Lauren
Obviously, it was just a case of "sh** happens" with you when you whacked. I thought I was extremely careful to not disparage anyone's abilities in my post, though frankly, all of us make mistakes sometimes. Perhaps someday you will have the pleasure of seeing me demolished by a huge thermal on landing while you sit in a lawn chair and laugh. By the way, "peace be with you" doesn't seem to fit the tone of your note.
Lauren
-
hepcat1989
- Posts: 684
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:15 pm
Lauren, I simply meant that I would like to see how you would have dealt with what I got hit with.An experienced pilot such as yourself. I SURE as hell would not have taken ANY pleasure in seeing you or any other pilot get hurt.Laughing-no I would not have! Come on now i'm not that guy. That being said you would have had to been there. It was an interesting final....
Shawn.
Shawn.
speed speed speed
Not to disaparage anyone.--- But I've seen lots of folks pitch upwards, even voilently, on final by thermals and rotor and crappy air in general. Been there myself. The people flying fast.... really, really fast (AKA Christy Huddle FAST!) do best cutting through the crap. The fast flyers handle turbulence best. Even if you think you are flying fast, you may not be flying fast enough to cut through mid-Day turbulence or just plain anytime very rowdy turbulence. Practice coming in super fast in calmer conditions and then use the technique when it's rowdy. Don't forget the tubulent landing position when transitioning.
Matthew
Matthew
-
bustedwing2
- Posts: 249
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:58 pm
- Location: McConnellsburg,Pa
-
Flying Lobster
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:17 pm
Turbulent landing position?Rnlighten me please. RichB
***
One hand up on down tube and one hand down on base tube when you transition. Stay there until well into ground effect and almost ready to flare. Keeps you from popping up the nose when transitioning. I think most of us do this as a matter of course on all landings. It's in the Pagan books.
Matthew
***
One hand up on down tube and one hand down on base tube when you transition. Stay there until well into ground effect and almost ready to flare. Keeps you from popping up the nose when transitioning. I think most of us do this as a matter of course on all landings. It's in the Pagan books.
Matthew
That would depend largely on the glider, wouldn't it? Let's see, at Woodstock I got hammmered by a rotor that either came from the trees or the crest of the hill. At High Rock, I was standing on my base tube when I came in. Whatever I hit, it still slowed me to zero ground speed 20 feet above the ground when all of the sudden the bottom fell out. I stalled the glider into the ground flying as fast as I could, which is 45-50 mph airspeed. In both cases I'm sure I'd have been able to slice my monsters on Chritie's Litespeed flying 80 mph. But given the unpredictibility as to when monsters pop up, doing 80 mph on final into our technical fields midday will leave you enough energy to either crash and burn in the trees or as well fly a second approach. If I flew Ridgly, where all you have to worry about is thermals popping off on final, I'd be coming in on a Litespeed doing 80 mph, too.The people flying fast.... really, really fast (AKA Christy Huddle FAST!) do best cutting through the crap. The fast flyers handle turbulence best. Even if you think you are flying fast, you may not be flying fast enough to cut through mid-Day turbulence or just plain anytime very rowdy turbulence.
Numbers seem high: 45-50 in a what? Falcon? Eagle? Not sure you can get to those speeds. 80 seems a bit optimistic for a Litespeed, too. More like 30 for the Falcon and Eagle when they are screaming, 50 for the Litespeed? In any case, if I'm right, that just means it takes less wind from the wrong direction to pound you in. Carrying good speed helps with the smaller stuff, but there will always be large and small-scale wind patterns that can overpower the glider. Some accidents are avoidable - you carry good speed to handle handleable conditions - or don't fly because the conditions are too strong. Other accidents are unavoidable: you did everything right, including judging that the conditions were within sensible parameters, but you misjudged them or conditions changed or some local phenomenon occurred - and you get whacked. Life is unfair. You can get struck by lightening while sitting inside reading a book... - Hugh