Religion
Moderator: CHGPA BOD
p.s. since full disclosure appears to be all the rage ( 
),' took my degree in chemisry with bio minor, started/didn't finish (personal reasons) doctoral program in chem. but - that was a whole nother incarnation. life long inveterate 'navel-gazer'. at one time had good spelling and grammer skills but now not so much. like cuddling in front of a fire, old movies and long walks on the beach.
),' took my degree in chemisry with bio minor, started/didn't finish (personal reasons) doctoral program in chem. but - that was a whole nother incarnation. life long inveterate 'navel-gazer'. at one time had good spelling and grammer skills but now not so much. like cuddling in front of a fire, old movies and long walks on the beach.garyDevan
oh. also noteworthy - worked on a blast furnace (steel mill (second helper and overhead crane operator), drove trucks cross country, helped with an amish barn raising and two pig butcherings and worked two summers and one winter of high school on neighbors dairy farm (and didn't get the farmers daughter pregnant - though not from lack of initiative).
also talked an amish farmer into lying down in the road and jumped my '10-speed' over him (no ramp and we were both approaching 30 (yrs. old)
also talked an amish farmer into lying down in the road and jumped my '10-speed' over him (no ramp and we were both approaching 30 (yrs. old)
garyDevan
favorite job - smashing slag from railroad 'cars' with a wrecking ball from 90 ft up in the cab of a crane. get that thing swinging from one side of the building to the other then drop it into the side of that slag car! then 'chase down' the careening ball, get it under control and do it again. ooh baby - That was fun! (didn't have computer animation/games back then read the works of soltzenytsen (hey, it's russian -You spell it) on breaks, with coworkers asking "well, if that's such a good book, tell me - did he f*** her yet?"
read the works of soltzenytsen (hey, it's russian -You spell it) on breaks, with coworkers asking "well, if that's such a good book, tell me - did he f*** her yet?"garyDevan
Re: Religion
morning musings (i'm a night person)Paul Tjaden wrote:I haven't done a poll but it seems to me that there are a significant number of hang glider pilots that, like me, are non-believers...
...I believe that there are many atheists and agnostics out there who are "in the closet" due to the stigma that can be attached to these labels in our mostly Christian society... So in my small way, I am trying to do what I can to tell people that it's OK to question religion and make personal decisions based on what they percieve to be the facts.
people involved in hang gliding, across the board it seems to Me, tend to 'be' somewhat spiritual, to some lesser or greater degree, in their persons. it seems to be part of the inherent draw of the sport. you can hear and feel it in their conversations about flying.
it comes across clearly, for example, in the writings of this mythical person who signs herself (seemingly incongruously - yet not -and that's what makes the point ) 'swamp bitch'.
this thread seems to have wound itself out (either that or i've eventually pissed off Everyone
)- so i thought i'd bring it back full circle and try and end on a high note.
marco, you frickin' asshole you, where you hiding, you coward?
yeah
i knew i couldn't do it either. got any grenades left, marc?
garyDevan
Paul,
On your point about the spirituality of many HG pilots: I think its because, despite all the logical-mind technique, the main reason for getting involved is esthetic - flying free is a beautiful thing to do. The esthetic faculty is someplace else in our consciousness besides the "how far does the 5030 say I can glide" zone. But at the same time, one has to be very clear-eyed about assessing and accepting risks and one's own mortality. Most wuffos seem to be trying to insulate themselves from all risk - and in denial that they really do have to die someday. The acknowledgement of death leads to "seizing the day" and living life to the fullest...
By the way, you may appreciate a recent New Yorker article about a husband-and-wife team of philosophers whose field is the "philosophy of mind": is the mind just the electrochemical manifestation of so many billion neurons - or not? Interestingly, the Dalai Lama is also very interested in neuroscience...
On the survival benefit of religion: I think it's a way of organizing large numbers of humans to concerted action. (c.f. Nazism or Communism, Saxons vs Danes, Franks vs Moors etc. ad infinitum) Of course, there's a more peaceful benefit, too. Christians seem to prosper relative to Muslims because they practice primogeniture (first son gets all the land, second son becomes a priest, third son a doctor, fourth joins the army) while the Muslims divide tha land equally among all the sons. Religion seems to promote altruistic behavior, whereby the strongest sacrifice themselves to protect the weaker members of their in-group. We are NOT rational creatures (even atheists seem to be grinding some kind of emotional ax) - I give you large pickup trucks in suburban grocery store lots - so religion takes the shortcut to influencing behavior by pushing emotional buttons, for good or ill. What rational thinking motivates a young man who has other prospects to volunteer for combat? None! It's all about pride, honor, respect of one's peers, having been jilted by a lover, desire to prove one's manhood, esprit de corps, unreasonable expectation that you will beat the odds and survive on a lethal battlefield, group solidarity... - Hugh
On your point about the spirituality of many HG pilots: I think its because, despite all the logical-mind technique, the main reason for getting involved is esthetic - flying free is a beautiful thing to do. The esthetic faculty is someplace else in our consciousness besides the "how far does the 5030 say I can glide" zone. But at the same time, one has to be very clear-eyed about assessing and accepting risks and one's own mortality. Most wuffos seem to be trying to insulate themselves from all risk - and in denial that they really do have to die someday. The acknowledgement of death leads to "seizing the day" and living life to the fullest...
By the way, you may appreciate a recent New Yorker article about a husband-and-wife team of philosophers whose field is the "philosophy of mind": is the mind just the electrochemical manifestation of so many billion neurons - or not? Interestingly, the Dalai Lama is also very interested in neuroscience...
On the survival benefit of religion: I think it's a way of organizing large numbers of humans to concerted action. (c.f. Nazism or Communism, Saxons vs Danes, Franks vs Moors etc. ad infinitum) Of course, there's a more peaceful benefit, too. Christians seem to prosper relative to Muslims because they practice primogeniture (first son gets all the land, second son becomes a priest, third son a doctor, fourth joins the army) while the Muslims divide tha land equally among all the sons. Religion seems to promote altruistic behavior, whereby the strongest sacrifice themselves to protect the weaker members of their in-group. We are NOT rational creatures (even atheists seem to be grinding some kind of emotional ax) - I give you large pickup trucks in suburban grocery store lots - so religion takes the shortcut to influencing behavior by pushing emotional buttons, for good or ill. What rational thinking motivates a young man who has other prospects to volunteer for combat? None! It's all about pride, honor, respect of one's peers, having been jilted by a lover, desire to prove one's manhood, esprit de corps, unreasonable expectation that you will beat the odds and survive on a lethal battlefield, group solidarity... - Hugh
Much like Paul, I grew up in conservative, Bible-Belt Kansas and was raised in a Baptist Church. In High School our family was disillusioned with the Black/White teachings of the Baptist church and relocated to a local Episcopal church. From there on, I realized & learned that "religion" was much more tolerant depending on the teacher.
I have gone thru cycles being a part of a chuch and other parts of being fed up and completely distant. As I get older, I find myself turning back to religion and trying to realize what the teachings are based upon from a big picture standpoint.
I guess in my own mind, I would rather die a believer and find out it IS NOT true, than die a NON believer, and find out it IS true. I guess that is what Faith is about and for whatever it matters, it makes me feel good.
C
Now off to sacrifice a goat ....
I have gone thru cycles being a part of a chuch and other parts of being fed up and completely distant. As I get older, I find myself turning back to religion and trying to realize what the teachings are based upon from a big picture standpoint.
I guess in my own mind, I would rather die a believer and find out it IS NOT true, than die a NON believer, and find out it IS true. I guess that is what Faith is about and for whatever it matters, it makes me feel good.
C
Now off to sacrifice a goat ....
brian,brianvh wrote:Damn both Paul and Gary ...
in appreciation and acknowledgement of your conversing here in a 'give and take', 'ebb and flow' manner (if that sounds stilted it's because i had a heck of a time crafting it (!) ) :
i took occasion to reread the full of the above noted post.
i realized that i may have had become overly focussed on trying to explain what it was that I was trying to communicate, and not necessarily reading others as 'closely' as i should (hence the rereading). as you're probably aware, it can get like that when it's 'your turn in the barrel'.
what i wanted to say was that, in rereading your post and considering the stuff i've written, i don't think that you and i are Not on the same page about these things, actually, and nothing i've written conflicts (for me) with what you expressed there. just thought it was worth noteing.
I might rephrase:
"I'd rather live with doubt than certainites that may be false."
to
" I rather think that doubt may be the One certainty - and i'd be false if i didn't bitch about having to live with that ! "
...not certain though.
gary
garyDevan
Paul (not),Paul hadn't wrote:Paul,
On your point about the spirituality of many HG pilots: ...
By the way, you may appreciate a recent New Yorker article about a husband-and-wife team of philosophers whose field is the "philosophy of mind": is the mind just the electrochemical manifestation of so many billion neurons - or not? Interestingly, the Dalai Lama is also very interested in neuroscience...
thanks for the reference,
not Paul
garyDevan
once dated a gal who had, facing her bed - such that one woke up to it every morning - a piece of african artwork depicting death in a rather stark, skeletal, personal fashion. (her father had been an ambassador and her early years were spent in Uganda). Bill Bennet once gave her a tandom ride out at hancock airport and for some reason - he chose to be lying on top (that last part was just for funmcelrah wrote: The acknowledgement of death leads to "seizing the day" and living life to the fullest...
). anyhow, i was struck by the poetry of that. and have always meant to replicate that 'acknowledge the presence of death, every morning you wake up' by the simple act of having such a piece of cultural artwork across from the bed...
problem with the wife though - says i'm already a bit too frantic in my bedroom endeavors as it is!
'replied, "well if you wouldn't just Lie there like that!" (again, that bit was just for fun)
(actually, i realize, the interlacing of death and bawdiness was purposeful toward making the point - so, no apologies this time)
garyDevan